Chip and PIN cards

As long as there is somebody to handle your card, it SHOULD be accepted. That doesn't mean that it always will be. Chipless cards are trusted less and less and in France now, you are supposed to show valid ID to use a chipless card in a store. That has been the case in Spain for a long time already.

However, in most cases you WON'T be able to use your card in any automatic machine that requires a PIN. Machines that do not require a PIN, like automatic toll booths and some parking machines, will often accept a chipless card, because it is just reading the magnetic strip in those cases. However, there have been many reports of cards being refused, so you should have a backup plan.

In my experience non chip cards never worked in automatic ticket booths, toll booths and gasoline stations. A while back restaurants started using wireless credit card machines, and these have two different slots for card with chips and without. I see no reason to think that this will change in the near future. The NY Times article was misleading.

I've never had a problem using it anywhere in France (and I was just there last month) except in the places Michael mentioned. I've never had a store or restaurant say they couldn't take it. It is true they ask for ID when I use a CC in FNAC, and maybe Virgin Megastore, I don't shop in stores very much so those may be the only two where I used it.

To my surprise, the CC machines were down in FNAC when I needed to buy about 100 euro worth of stuff (not for American cards, any one, the French guy in front of me couldn't use his) for Mastercard and Visa, but they would take my American Express in there with no problem. Which was good as I didn't have enough cash on me. It had something to do with their server, they said.

I haven't been in Spain recently, so can't say for sure but when I was there a few years ago, they did ask for ID when I used my CC in some big dept stores and the FNAC there, of course.

I really do not think all of Europe is going to refuse American credit cards, at least no big businesses that want the money (espec hotels).

I agree about ticket booths and petrol stations, but I have often travelled with people on the autoroutes, and their chipless cards have always worked at the toll booths. And I have used my chipless American Express and Monoprix credit cards at the toll booths and NEVER had a problem with them. So it is not at all a question of a chip if it doesn't work -- it has to do with your bank.

We were in Paris last week and had no problem in any store or retaurant with my CapitalOne Visa. Also, no problem with my TDBank Visa Debit card in any ATM machine.

spain is beginning to use chip & pin but it's not common yet. however, everywhere you use a card you'll be asked for ID - in your case a passport, so carry it with you. Be warned that spanish banks charge extortionate rates for cashpoints (automatic tellers, cajas automaticas) unless you're drawing from your own bank.

Hi Ded,

Just returned from France, Germany, CH and Italy.

Everyone accepted our US credit cards.

Remember to fill up the tank on Saturday.

Enjoy your visit.

Here's the question in all this.....the eu likes to stick its nose into most anything these days...what if in the near future they make it eu policy that by pick a date only chip and pin cards will be accepted in the eu.....where will that leave USA credit card holders? While I'm not saying it will definitely happen, nobody can rule this out.

Will be interesting eh.

So far, all the problems with my U.S. cc cards have been in France. If the transactions were limited to dealing with a person, then the U.S. cc cards still worked as many reported. If your transactions were done with machines, then there were problems.

My U.S. cc card did not work on SNCF ticket machine, Nice tram ticket vending machine, and RATP ticket vending machine.

However, I could pick-up my Eurostar ticket at the upper deck of Gare du Nord likely because the cc was used as an id, not to buy things.

What type of id is needed? would a usa drivers license be accepted. The thought of carrying around a passport makes me nervous

All I ever use is my USA drivers license, but you can carry a photocopy of your passport (picture page only) if you want. There's no need to carry the actual passport.

I'ved used my driver's license, also, as well as a photocopy of my passport. They recognize that a US driver's license is a govt-issued ID with your photo and what it is.

Chip and Pin or EMV, whilst government backed, is an initiative of the card companies Europay, Mastercard and Visa (EMV geddit??). So if any one decides that magnetic strips will no longer be read it will be the card companies, not the EU.
The same card companies who see no reason to introduce the system into the US, though they are doing so in Canada and around the rest of the world.

I have a "ViVO PayPass” card from Wells Fargo [USA]. I got this updated card in the mail to replace my expired old Visa debit card about 18 months ago.

Oddly, when I called the phone teller, the girl couldn't tell me exactly how to use it. And I just searched WF website and there is nothing in the FAQs. I always forget it is chipped b/c I have only seen one convenience store in my area displaying the logo. If I remember correctly, one can only spend <$50 using this method per transaction.

My questions are, is this the same thing as mentioned in this post and will the few of us that have this card in the USA be able to use it in Europe? There is a PIN for this card, but as far as I know, you don't need to tap the card AND then enter a pin... it is either “tap and go” or “swipe and PIN”.

Is there a logo on the readers in Paris? If so, can someone describe it? Mine has 5 concentric arcs (almost like an audio symbol) and they go from left to right/smallest to biggest.

Thanks,
~Jay

The answer is no...they are not the same thing at all. They have a chip and you touch a reader that takes down the information....they are something like oyster cards used on the London tube to get an idea. Some of the banks in the NYC area have tried or are trying this technology but frankly it hasn't gotten very far. And why try to produce a new technology....a standard chip and pin technology is now available and has been adopted in many places in the world. But don't count on seeing it in the USA. The banks claim the cost benefits vs. the amount of fraud is just not worth it to them.

It would probably take start-up companies in the U.S. to seize an opportunity to offer Chip and PIN cards to those traveling overseas. Only when the big U.S. banks see the revenue stream (those 2% foreign transaction fees) taken away by the start-ups, they would start offering Chip and PIN cards as "premium" card products.

>>>>>>
The banks claim the cost benefits vs. the amount of fraud is just not worth it to them.
>>>>>>>

indeed. chip and pin is a complete waste of money and is a failure. europe's card fraud has been and still is much worse than america's. hence the difference in approach and the reason why america is not adopting it. anyway, C&P does very little to prevent fraud...most fraud is internet or telephone use of cards. we still regularly get reports/warnings of local uk petrol stations 'skimming' cards to steal the information. this happens regularly. and america is not the only place without c&p. much of the skimmed card info in the uk then shows up with fraudulent uses in places like india and sw asia. in fact fraud experts suggest not using cards at uk petrol stations because the problem has become so bad. they suggest cash. so much for c&p. in the past we have seen the usual flag waving suspects very proud of c&p and going so far to say that this superior technology leaves america's card network as dark ages. this is bs. c&p is a failure and the uk fraudsters are happier than ever.

not only is c&p not solving the problem of fraud....it, in itself, is a fraud. the customer loses because after rolling out c&p, it is much more difficult for customers to get banks to resolve fraudulent transactions on their accounts. with c&p, the burden is now more on the customer to prove that the use was fraudulent. if you are hit with fraud, you better hope that it's on an american account and not uk bank account because in the uk you will have a horrible time getting the problem fixed by our banks.

What a bunch of malarky.

kerouac has a point...just get on with it and have a good trip

I think there are several self evident truths we can all agree on rather than to quarrel with each other...

1. Chip and pin is no cure all. Absolutely not as a major source of credit card fraud is on the internet where chip and pin does not come into play.

2. However chip and pin will cut down on some fraud on the merchant level with stolen and cloned cards where chip and pin is in effect.

3. There will always be credit card fraud. Some of these credit card fraud rings are very sophisticated and if they are really determined, little you can do will prevent it.

4. However, I think we cal all agree there should be one standard for everybody because people travel all over. Right now the lack of chip and pin technology on US cards is probably not the biggest deal in the world. For the most part, the old cards can be used but tell that to somebody driving around on fumes on a Sunday looking for a gas station which takes his magnetic strip card...or perhaps for those who love the idea of renting a bike in Paris and find the rental bike machines only take chip and pin or at an unmanned or unwomaned train station when you can't use the automatic machines which only take chip and pin.

5. Of course the lack of chip and pin in the USA makes the whole USA one of those areas where stolen card numbers can be used to rip off banks and legitemate card holders.

xyz - cutting down on 'some' fraud does not justify c&p. it must be justified by the costs to implement and run the system and also the costs of no longer having a more or less common, seamless system worldwide from the customer perspective (which has always been an important tenet of the global card system). as stated, the system also makes it worse for european customers when fraud does occur (which is very very regularly under c&p). so it hasn't delivered sufficiently on fraud reduction, but the banks still win because they can easier screw the innocent customer when fraud occurs.

lack of c&p in the usa could open it up for more fraud but the actual facts are against you. fraud is less over there.

the problem is with the card systems that have adopted a system that does not provide sufficient fraud protection, has not justified the costs to implement and run and is less friendly to the customer in many ways.

but strangely, we are still oh so very proud of it!!!

I have a chip and pin issued in france and I can't use it to pay for toll, to pay for gas with an unattended terminal, to pay for parking, etc.

The problem that you encounter with your american cards has nothing to do with the chip and pin. It is cause by the inability of the unattended terminal (and some attended terminals) to do an online authorization of your card. So, even if you will get a chip and pin card later on (BIG "IF"), you will still encounter the same problems that I also encounter with my chip and pin French issued VISA smartcard. Almost all out-of-country spend require online authorization, specially if a debit card is used. Some high-end american credit cards (with pin-code) will work, even for small amounts because the card will not require an online authorization.

Read my blog: http://www.finextra.com/community/fullblog.aspx?id=3491

Also, please note that here in Europe, generally we do not use our cards for small purchase amounts. Generally, we pay in cash for anything below 10 euros. Most shops also will not take your card (or mine - which is a chip and pin) if it's less than 10 euros. I think it's only americans that charge even a $1.00 purchase to their credit cards.

Be glad that they check your ID when you use your american cards. Fraudsters do not like american cards since most american cards do not have pin-codes. Even if they can skim the mag-stripe, the only places they can use the clone mag-stripe is with regular stores (attended point of sale systems). So without a pin-code, the fraudster would have to make a legitimate looking card and a fake ID to go along with it.

European chip and pin cards are great targets for fraudsters. Since they are used everywhere and there are soooo many unattended terminals here in Europe that accept chip and pin, fraudsters can cherry pick what unattended terminal they want, implant a skimmer and a pin-code recording device, and voila -they can make a simple white plastic with the cloned magstripe and go to an ATM machine to withdraw money using the white plastic with cloned mag-stripe AND pin-code. Without the pin-code, thieves will rob you of your jewelries, cell phone but will leave your cards with you because they will not be able to use them.

It is a myth that american issued cards are less safe than chip and pin cards. Card fraud rate for U.S. issued cards are less than half the card fraud rate of chip and pin cards.

I am in Paris now. Yesterday I was shopping for a terry robe as I had forgotten to pack one. Went to Monoprix on Commerce. They only had long, heavy ones. I wandered the area and found one in a store called Womans Secret. I alawys use CapOne..it would not work and neither would my Amex. Ended up paying cash..it works!

A couple years ago the same thing happened in a small discount store on St. Dominique. Gal said it was a new machine. I don't know if these 2 experiences were that the people did not know how to use them for our 'dumb' cards or if the machine was really not capable of using them. I never have any trouble anyplace else. I know not to use them in above noted places.

Today, in a small store the clerk did ask me for a photo ID..this was a first for me. I do not carry passport with me and leave driver's license home..not driving. I have a copy of passport page that I have now put into my purse.

I think you can say that you may run into places that their machines/clerks may not accept them!

Joan

kerouac is correct, what a bunch of unsubstantiated malarkey.

Checking photo ID is common place in Spain But a copy of any document is not proof. You should carry around your original. Besides in some countries you can be fined by the police for not having the original passport or ID car.

gracejoan is correct, there are plenty of places which will not accept magnet strip cards, particularly when someone ventures beyond the well trodden touristic paths of Paris.

EMV cards are not foolproof but they are much more difficult to duplicate than a magnetic strip card and since when has a fake photo ID been difficult to produce. Teenagers have been doing it with Photoshop for some time now.

Well, the Chip and Pin is spreading. My Canadian CC was renewed with a chip on it.

I tried it in London in May and it worked fine, so the technology is 'universal'. So far in Canada I've used it a couple of times, but since I'm not a big CC user, not sure how widespread the readers are here at home.

I would love to see the statistics about "higher fraud" with chip & pin cards because everything that I have read says the opposite.

We have discussed some of the things in the thread before...I will admit I do not know how universal some of the things are. I do know the following:

MC/Visa merchant agreements in the United States prohibit merchants from setting a minimum for use of a credit card or surcharging credit card sales (although interestingly enough they do allow discounts for cash; somehow the difference between a discount for cash and a credit card surcharge escapes me but I'm kind of dumb I suppose). Now I've been told that UK law prohibits credit card companies from setting up such prohibitions in their merchant agreements. Hence many, but not all, merchants in the UK do have a minimum for use of a credit card. What irks me is not when they say they have a minimum but when there is no sign that says there is a minimum. When I have brought this up, I've been told that, at least in the UK, it is universally accepted that a credit card should not be used for amounts less than £5 or even £10 although many chain stores and fast food places such as Mickey D, Pret a manger, sainsbury's, tesco take credit cards for most any amount..I would assume knowing the eu that such consumer protections we have in the USA might not apply in Europe which in some respects is not as consumer friendly.

Now as for showing ID. Again, the merchant agreements in the USA for visa/mc state that while a merchant may request id to complete a mc/visa transaction, they may not refuse to complete the transaction if the customers does not show id as long as the signature on the card matches the signature on the sales voucher. I suspect again this might not be universal.

Now on this matter, I've had discussions here and on other blogs with people. I will not show identification to use my credit card period. The reason is this....identity theft rings operate on the idea of gathering as much information as possible about a person. Identity theft is a completely different matter than credit card theft. Yes I have had my credit card number compromised a couple of times in the past 25 or 30 years since credit cards became a way of life. What happens is simple. YOu may or may not be informed by your credit card company there is some suspicious activity on your card. But I constantly check online my credit card transactions. If the card is cloned, it is no great problem. The first or second time it happened it was annoying. But, they ask you to indicate which transactions are not yours, they are credited to your account, a new card with a new number is issued and the situation is resolved. You do have, and this is relatively new, to notify the merchants who you have set up direct debit authorizations with such as cable television, utilities, insurance premiums, telephone and other utility bills and that is a bit annoying. But it is not something that is a real big problem. Situation resolved, no harm done.

OTOH if your identify is stolen, well you and I have read all sorts of situations that have occurred and it can be a mess gettingn it resolved. A credit card merchant need not know my driver;s license number, my birthdate, my soc sec number, my address (unless I am arranging to have stuff delivered), my phone number. If you are dealing with a clerk who is in cahoots with those vermin from Eastern Europe or Nigeria (two of the places where identity theft and credit card fraud are big industries), the more information they can steal off your id, the better it is to steal your identify.

Therefore, I as a matter of routine refuse to show my id when using my credit cards and carry around with me the visa/mc regulation on this. I know there are people who write see ID on their signature panels but technically that invalidates the credit card. Besides, quite frankly and I'm not saying this is a good thing, it is very rare in the USA today that any merchant ever looks at the signature panel and tries to match the signature. Not so, I've noticed, in London where with every transaction, the clerk stares at the signature and puts the card next to the signature on the sales slip, not that they've ever said anything.

Now, I don't know if this customer protection also applies outside the USA. But, I've been asked on two occasions in London (at Boots as a matter of fact) that since I don't have a chip and pin card, I have to produce ID and have refused and told them they cannot hold up the transaction if the signature matches. Both times, the clerk called over the manager who told him or her, I forget, to go ahead with the transaction.

I am not saying this to be arrogant or anything like that (I have been known sometimes to be so) but it is my warning to everybody to be careful when showing other ID when using a ccredit card because I believe it is illegal for a merchant to not complete the transaction on that grounds.

Interesting that you would refuse to show ID, because my American nephew was just visiting me, and we almost got in trouble when he wanted to pay for a tank of gas.

I filled the tank and drove to the Carrefour cashier, and he handed over his card. The cashier saw that it didn't have a chip, so she ran it through the strip reader but became very upset because it was not signed.

He told me "I never sign my cards, because the machine says 'ask for ID' in such a case". He is a lawyer, by the way. Anyway, the cashier let us off the hook, because I looked honest (ha ha), but he did sign his cards for future use.

why would you refuse to show id in Boots fgs...you're not arrogant, you're just bone-headed. the till assistant was only doing his/her job and i'm sure all those punters rushing to get things done during their lunch hour and standing in a queue behind you were really impressed with your assertion of rights.

I will repeat.....I do not show my ID to anybody except the police. While the chances are the clerk at Boots is one of those vermin who steal credit card numbers as well as other facts bout customers to feed to the identity theft rings, this indeed is one way that identity theft occurs. Read my post about identity theft. I have in my wallet the statement directly from the mastercard web site. To repeat what it says, while a merchant may ask for identification (so the clerk was just doing his job true) no mastercard transaction can be refused if the customers refuses to allow hmself to have his identity stolen oops if the customers refuses to comply. If the signature on the sales slip matches the signature on the credit card, the merchant is obligated to complete the transaction.

I am only asking the merchant to follow the rules for my protection!

Directly from the mastercard web site:

A merchant must not refuse to complete a MasterCard card transaction solely because a cardholder who has complied with the conditions for presentment of a card at the POI [point of interaction] refuses to provide additional identification information, except as specifically permitted or required by the Standards. A merchant may require additional identification from the cardholder if the information is required to complete the transaction, such as for shipping purposes.


I think that's very clear, don't you?

Do you think that US regulations automatically apply to the rest of the world? Looks like you'd better stay home, if you do.

kerouac...

I made the pont that I understand different strokes for different folks so to speak. This, however, is a mastercard regulation. It is not a Mastercard US regulation to the best of my knowledge. Even in the USA, there are some states that don't understand why such a regulation exists for the benefit of the consumer and have passed laws prohibiting mastercard from enforcing this rule.

But why anybody would want to produce additional id and give identity thieves some extra info is beyond me. Instead of just reacting, please read what is written. If you or anybody else who wants to put their identity up for grabs wishes to write see ID on a credit card (BTW that invalidates the credit card but why let the facts get in the way of a good story)or to allow a clerk to see their driver's license number or phone number is beyond me....again theft of a credit card number, while disconcerting, is not really a big deal. A couple of phone calls, a few check marks on an affadavit and the situation is easily rectified. Identity theft is a completely different matter.

There is no need to be nasty. I recognize the fact that different countries might have different rules but let me repeat, the above is from a Mastercard international web site, it is an international rule of mastercard. It is not a US regulation. Now if you want to tell me English law prohibits Mastercard from enforcing this rule, please point it out to me without trying to be nasty.

mate, use your common sense next time. if you're so scared of even showing ID, stay at home or pay with cash. and remember, europe is the first world, not the third world old chap

Pay cash???? When I travel? You have to be kidding. Never.

BTW..I am using common sense. Nobody has a right to see my driver's license number or phone number or anything when the regs say they have no right to do so. That is indeed common sense.

Somebody could steal it! xyz123 is extremely concerned about any kind of theft. The whole world is out to get him/her.

Of course no policemen are corrupt, so it is totally normal to show anything they ask for.

I would say that, at worst, you have as much chance of getting defrauded in Europe as the US. As with anything to do with money, common sense should apply no matter where you are going.

But I would never be "on special alert" when going to Europe. I think we become comfortable and sloppy at home, not realizing how many opportunities for happen to us, and then when we go on trips we think that we need to be more vigilant.

Plus...you only hear fraud stories, you never hear non-fraud ones.

I've been victimized by credit card theft (cloning) three times, twice at home in the US and once in Europe. In each case, it was because some clerk stole the number who was working with these credit card/identity theft gangs which operate in parts of the former Soviet Union and in Nigeria. As noted, easy to remedy. But thank the good lord, never identity theft.

Look, common sense should prevail on all parts. 99% of the credit card fraud, I bet, doesn't take place at the merchant level. Rarely does a credit card thief go into a store, buy a large amount of goods and use somebody else's credit card. Too much danger of store surveillance cameras in this day and age or being recognized or whatever. The vast majority of credit card theft takes place online with stolen credit card numbers.

Having said that, yes I do try to be as careful as possible. And no I don't think every thing dones in the USA is great and elsewhere not so great. If anything, I tend to the other extreme. I dislike at home, for example, when going to a restaurant having to give my credit card to the waiter who takes it into a back room and then returns with the card and the receipt to sign. That is a place where credit card numbers can and are stolen. (That's what happened last December to me)...when I shop on line, my credit card company allows me to use a virtual account number which means they issue me a one time number for use on that transaction and that transaction only. The merchant never gets my actual credit card number which can, and has beeen compromised by hakcers into their computer system. If you notice, credit card charge slips no longer show the entire card number but just a few digits for the same reason.
I wish that in the US they would require all restaurants to have those portable terminals they use in Europe which they bring to your table so the card never leaves your sight.

Am I paranoid? Perhaps. But I stand by what I said. Common sense says that showing your ID to some stranger when using a credit card, when the credit card company itself says it isn't allowed, will subject you, to matter how mall it might be, to to chance of identity theft. I just don't see why this common sense approach has raised such an uproar here. It is advice I have gotten from some experts on credit cards on other blogs so I'm just passing along this piece of information. Even if the odds are 10,000 to 1, there's always this 1. The nastiness here on a common sense thing just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

But if you're happy with showing your id every time you use a credit card or invalidating your credit card by writing see ID on the signature panel, that is your every right and I sure don't demean you for it. I would rather be completely safe than sorry.

Well, having your credit card number stolen three times is indeed unlucky. I have been mugged twice and have had 4 passports stolen (plus I lost a 5th passport once -- my only memory of that event is saying to myself "don't put your passport there or you'll lose it!").

Since I am in charge of credit card sales at my airline, I know that the internet customers are operating at zero risk, since they are not signing a document and not providing their PIN number. We assume 100% of the risk, as per our contract. I have one investigation in progress at the moment, and it is just the 3rd one this year.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of English law is that a shopkeeper is not obliged to serve you at all. If you impose conditions on the transaction that the shopkeeper does not like, then he can simply refuse the transaction. If he notices that he has priced goods wrongly, you cannot insist on having the goods for the amount shown. A contract for sale does not exist until it has the agreement of both parties. A shopkeeper would therefore be quite within his rights in saying - either you show me some ID, or I don't sell the goods to you.

It is, however, illegal to deliberately misprice an item with the intention of deceiving the customer.

Ah kerouac...

So you're an expert on credit cards...as I said I don't mind having a discussion with people on these matters....I was only upset at the nastiness at what I thought was a sensible precaution I suggested.

We live in a wonderful technologically savy world where we can order thousands of dollars of merchandise from merchants we never heard of if they have the cheapest price and have it delivered directly to our homes with no fuss. But along with these technological advances, we have to live with the vermin trying to steal from whomever they can steal from and indeed I do understand that the merchants are at a disadvantage when dealing with the credit card companies as often they are left holding the bag.

But having said that, I just don't understand the fuss exhibited sometimes when I go into Boots, and buy £4.24 worth of stuff and am asked to produce ID to use my credit card. I will leave the argument aside as to whether it is fair or right to charge such a small amount (I adhere to a philosophy that you never spend cash on a trip unless 1000% necessary but that's me) do they really think somebody is going to rip them off for that small amount using a stolen credit card. Besides, if they get an authorization (which is now always gotten electronically anyway) and the signatures match, they are covered. My point was simply not that US law is better than English law (it is not a legal thing) but I want to take whatever precautions I can against what can be devestating trouble and what I'm trying to get across that while theft of your credit card number is troublesome and you don't really want it to happen, it is not catastrophic. My advice to all still remains....

1. don not write see id on the signature panel of your credit card.

2. if prompted for id, politely remind the person that mastercard (and visa) regulations prohibit them from not completing a transaction if they don't show any further id.

I'm really sorry if that attitude troubles people and equally sorry that people feel safer if they show their id.

But that's my take on it rightly or wrongly.

I would say that, at worst, you have as much chance of getting defrauded in Europe as the US.

With regards to credit card fraud, you'd be wrong.

Credit card fraud is much more common in Europe than it is in the US. This is doubly true for the UK, where credit card fraud rates are exceptionally high.

Remember the downside to chip-and-pin systems. They have accompanied an increase in the prevalence of unattended terminals and they put the onus on the cardholder to protect their security. The system in the US puts the onus on the merchant much more so than in Europe.

Neither system is perfect. The troubling thing, to me, about the chip-and-pin system is that many seem to take it as a false sense of security, when the added layer of security it offers is quite minimal.

chartley...

That may be true everywhere (including the USA)..but at the same token the merchant has signed an agreement to accept credit cards and is bound by whatever the rules of the credit card company are...now obviuosly in any situation the merchant can say no id no sale and maintain that posture even after I (politely) explain this is a violation of the merchant's agreement with the credit card company. I don't question that for one second. However, at the same time, I then have a right to report said merchant to the credit card company since I went into the merchant's shop under the undersanding I would be able to charge the purchase to my credit card. And then the credit card company has the right (I'm not saying they do) to terminate the merchant's agreement and ability to accept that particular credit card.

This whole question is interesting and makes good bulletin board discussions on a civil level. Philosophically, my feeling is that when a merchant makes the decision to accept credit cards, he or she should be bound by the rules of the credit card company. And also, in setting his or her prices, the cost of credit card processing, and that includes the percentage paid to the credit card company, the monthly fee (if there is one), the price for the terminal (if there is one), the cost of maintaining the account into which the credit card receipts are deposited are all costs of running a business when establishing prices. Thus if you go into a shop that has credit card decals all over the place, you are paying something, whether you use your credit cards or not, in the merchant's establishment of prices. So in effect, yes indeed, cash payers are paying something for the fact the store accepts credit cards. Therefore why not use the credit cards? (A convoluted argument to be sure but an argument nonetheless).....

When I'm at home in the USA, I do resent it when I go into a merchant who insists on a minimum purchase amount for a use of a credit card as I know it is against their merchant agreement. Usually I have a polite discussion if they refuse and show them the credit card rule from MC (always want those miles, never can tell when the extra 5 miles might give me a free trip). If they still refuse to accept the credit card, I tell them I will report them to mastercard (there is a form on the mastercard web site to do so) and I have and I do. Whether that resolves anything is another matter.

Now, I do understand as I am often in London (have lots of friends there and visit 3 or 4 times a year) that apparently English law precludes the credit card companies from establishing this consumer protection on the merchant agreements there. I accept that (although I don't like it) but if that's the rule, that's the rule. What I do think is fair in this matter, however, is that if there is to be a minimum they should be forcd to have a prominent sign telling they have a rule for minimum use of a credit card so I am not embarassed when I take out my credit card to pay for £2.75 worth of goods. But the attitude I sometimes get is you should know that nobody accepts credit cards for small purchases in Europe (not true but more likely than in the USA). I think the same should hold on this question of showing ID. What I don't know, I admit, is whether or not credit card agtreements in other countries have this valuable consumer protection built in.

Now if somebody wants to tell me they disagree, fine. But I resent people suggesting I'm an ugly American, as some did inthis thread and in others, when I bring this matter up.

no one says you're ugly. you're probably a real looker, M or F. But there are those of us who feel you may be overcooking this one slightly. And I still think you're fretting too much not carrying cash. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on purchases in Spain, where stores will be charging customers 1% for the use of a card from January

I think they do in Australia also as I've read....again if Spanish law allows merchants to surcharge credit card purchases, there's nothing I can do about it and no I won't pout (not that I visit Spain anyway; don't speak the language)....

Interesting story, though. I don't know, say about 15 years ago, several of the US oil companies used to have two sets of pumps, one for cash purchases and one for credit card purchases. The pump for credit card purchases was about 4 or 5 cents a gallon higher than for cash. They called it a cash discount program which is legal (credit card surcharges are illegal, at least on merchant agreements in the USA). But what they quickly found is that cash customers would come in and say $20 worth please....credit card customers would say, Fill it up........that program lasted about a year and now is RIP.

What I do think is that merchants should live up to the terms of the agreements they sign in accepting credit cards; no more or no less. And when they do, I grin and bear it!

BTW a true story on the above...

During the time of that cash discount program, a person I know who had a service station was told by the oil company he wuld have to replace his pumps to one that had the ability to display a price for both cash and credit cards. So he did at a cost, of course. Two weeks later, they ended the discount for cash program.

Buyer beware eh.

"....Credit card fraud is much more common in Europe than it is in the US. This is doubly true for the UK, where credit card fraud rates are exceptionally high"

Being a doubting person, could you provide some proof?

I've heard that in N.A. banks do not want to let it be known the large amounts being lost to fraud, and as a cardholder, if I am limited to a $50 loss, why would I bother reporting it to anyone other than...the CC companies. And yes, I've had an incident of two of fraud..in N.A., not in Europe or elsewhere.

Stats...gimme the stats!

from 2007

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/jul/17/creditcards.debt

Last year, the countries where most fraud occurred on UK-issued cards were the USA (£16.7m), France (£7.5m), Spain (£6.7m), Italy (£6.4m) and Thailand (£4.1m).

In the USA, where there are no plans to introduce chip and Pin, losses due to fraud were up 49%, compared to a drop of 35% in France and 30% in Spain, where the secure technology is being rolled out.

older..

French customers never let their cards out of sight and run no risk of having their signatures copied because they do not sign anything. Instead they insert their card in a machine and tap in the same four-digit PIN number they would use at a cash dispenser.

The number is up for card fraudsters. A version of the system, which has cut credit card fraud in France by 80 per cent since its introduction several years ago, was finally introduced in Britain yesterday.

The cost of credit and debit card fraud dropped by 23 per cent to £232.8million during the six months to the end of June compared with the same period in 2008. Industry body Financial Fraud Action attributed the fall in fraud on UK-issued cards to the success of chip and pin, as well as systems to make it harder to use stolen cards over the internet.

They added the dip may also have been caused by fraudsters targeting cards issued in countries that do not yet have the chip and pin system in place

etc....

Analysis of credit card fraud since January shows that criminals have already adapted to chip and pin. Point-of-sale fraud has fallen but fraud involving credit card transactions conducted by phone has increased by more than 150%.

I'm a monetic expert surveying comments from american cardholders. Actually, what's written here is a myth. American cardholders' ability or inability to use their mag-stripe cards in Europe has nothing to do with chip and pin. This inability is as a result of unattended terminals (and some attended) inability to do online authorization of your purchase.
See my blog : http://www.finextra.com/community/fullblog.aspx?id=3491
Although VISA and MC advertise that no merchant can(?)/should refuse your card, even here in France, merchants refuse my CHIP and PIN card when my purchase is under 10 euros.
So, don't put down your mag-stripe and say that the U.S. is behind. There is safety and security in having magstripe and signature based cards. When you don't have a pin-code, then fraudsters are not interested in skimming your card. Skimming is only interesting and worthwhile if the fraudster gets the pin-code, cause they usually produce a white plastic, paste the cloned mag-stripe and go to ATMs and withdraw money using your valid pin-codes.
The chip isn't bad. The static pin-code that goes with it is what makes it unsafe and makes it a prime target for fraudsters.
Read my blog, and you'll understand that card fraud for american cards is actually less than half of the fraud rate of chip and pin.