Chip and Pin Card from Capital One

Old Apr 24th, 2015, 12:40 PM
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Chip and Pin Card from Capital One

Just to let you all know that Capital One wrote a letter introducing their chip and pin card and I have just received it. I didn't see anything about arranging for a new/different pin number though. Haven't had the opportunity to use it.

Anyone used his/hers yet?
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 01:36 PM
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Check it - does the chip become active automatically? We just rec'd barclays cards and the chip and pin usage becomes active only upon first foreign transaction with a swipe. (Yeah, I don't get it either, but there it is).
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 01:43 PM
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Assuming it does work you will find it very useful should you visit the Netherlands, as per your other thread, since very few places here still have the ability to swipe a card. Nearly all card readers here are chip only.
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 01:53 PM
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Which exact card is that? I just checked the Capital One website, and this is from their FAQ:

Is there any difference between a “Chip and PIN” card and a “Chip and Signature” card?

Both Chip and PIN and Chip and Signature cards offer better fraud protection than traditional magnetic stripe cards. The only difference is that the Chip and PIN card requires you to enter a PIN at checkout while the Chip and Signature card only requires your signature. Good news! Capital One chip cards will be Chip and Signature cards, so there’s no additional PIN to remember.

Actually bad news, if true.
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 03:15 PM
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since very few places here still have the ability to swipe a card.

Not my experience except in the train station where the ability existed but the order from above was not to allow it. All the coffee shops accepted our credit card, which was a good thing because many no longer accepted cash.
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 04:30 PM
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There is no such thing as a Capitol One Chip-and-PIN card. And it's kind of embarrassing to be looking for a PIN when the card does not offer that feature. The Capital One chip cards are Chip-and-Signature cards (with chip technology) but they require a signature to complete a transaction.

No matter how many times this gets explained, no matter how many websites there are that explain the differences, some people still don't quite understand what they have and what they don't have.
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 05:50 PM
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bookmarking
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Old Apr 24th, 2015, 07:46 PM
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And some banks don't understand! I spent several hours conversing with several people at my bank before I convinced them to ask someone in their credit card division. They all just continued to assure me that I would, of course, get a PIN to go along with the card. I eventually got the answer I needed, but am not sure anyone with whom I spoke until that final person actually understood the difference.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 02:38 AM
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It's not quite as simple as pin or no pin. Pins come in different varieties; not as many as Heinz 57 but enough to make the situation complicated, even for consumer service reps at various banks who may not live in the same country as you do and just read from a script. Having said that, the situation over the past little while has really stabilized in many respects even though we still sometimes have whining about lack of pins on American credit cards.

As of this writing, there is only 1 what one would call a "true" chip and pin card available to USA representatives from a financial institution. This is the UNFCU. Period no matter what else people may tell you. There are several banks that issue what for lack of a better term are called hybrid cards. They are primarily chip and signature but have the capabilities, in certain circumstances, of falling back and using a pin for purchases. I won't get into the difference between an online pin and an offline pin which is the source of some confusion. Every card with the emv chip has an order of preferences on the chip that specifies an order of preferences established by the bank to establish a verification method (called a cvm, card verification method) down through no cvm whatsoever. The terminal of the merchant also has its order of preference set by the merchant's bank and when they match, the transaction goes through.

Now almost every card does have a pin available for use in ATM's to make cash withdrawals where the first preference is almost always a pin. In general, it is recommended that one not use an ATM withdrawal of cash but there are some exceptions of enlightened banks whose credit cards do not charge fees for cash advances but we'll leave that aside. In some cases, that cash advance pin will work in a merchant's terminal which accepts online pins. For example, the Bank of America travel rewards card, a nice card to have as it has the proper annual fee (zero) and the proper foreign transaction fee (zero) does work with the cash advance pin in certain situations unbeknownst to the csr's at Bank of America.

However, like it or not, the die has been cast in the USA and despite what you may read or hear, the USA is not going chip and pin in the near future. It is going chip and signature. Visa, mostly took the lead on this, and insists most Americans prefer signature to pin (since many Americans carry multiple cards and might have difficulty matching up the right pin with the right card among other reasons. (No I'm sure it has nothing to do with the greater cost of implementing a chip and pin systems, now does it?) That is not going to change no matter how much whining some people do. Chip and signature is slightly less secure than chip and pin only in the case where the physical card is lost. But why worry? In the United States (as in other countries) you have no liability for fraudulent use of your card. If it happens, it happens and a few phone calls will resolve the issue. You'll get a card with a new number and life will go on. What is happening, though, is fewer and fewer kiosks are downright refusing to process USA chip and signature cards. Visa (and MC and Amex) have instituted regulations prohibiting rejecting cards solely fr lack of an offline and many places that once automatically rejected cards lacking pins now are required and indeed do take them such as the SNCF machines at CDG airport. I am sure there are still a few places where a chip and signature card will not work but a chip and pin card will but they are becoming rarer and rarer. So the whole argument has become pretty much moot.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 04:32 AM
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Well darn it. I'll call and see what they say.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 05:09 AM
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I had the same experience with Amex---two chip and signature cards but still no Chip & PIN. Frustrating.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 05:25 AM
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Just out of curiosity, denisea, why do you think it's frustrating? Trust me from experience, the chip and signature cards which may have had problems in the past will work 99.9% of the time today when travelling in Europe.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 04:11 PM
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I just went through this issue with Citibank. We have a USAA Mastercard that is chip and pin and when I received the Citi card with a chip on it, I assume it was also C and P. I went online to set up my PIN and then got a letter telling me the PIN was good for withdrawing cash from an ATM (I would NEVER use a cc for cash). When I called, the rep told me that their cards were only chip and signature and that she "had never heard of anyone having trouble in Europe with it."

Just to be safe, I'll stick with my USAA card as my major card. On a recent trip to Victoria, I used it three times with no problems. Just remember to set up a PIN number before you go--it can't be the same as your debit card if from the same bank.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 04:49 PM
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It is frustrating because there is NO good reason to have a different system in the US. Plus I have my doubts about your 99.9% figure - I'd like to see some proof. Meanwhile, I will travel with my Pen Fed card which is chip and sig primary but chip and pin secondary and worked fine on my last trip to Europe, but I will miss the 1% rebate I got with my Cap One cards.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 06:01 PM
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thursdaysd - why can't you carry both the Capital One card and the card with the chip? I have an Andrews Fed CC card with chip and pin/signature (asks for sig when there is a person, works fine with the pin in train station kiosks, gas stations, etc.). I also have a Capital One rewards card. That's the one I use to pay for hotels, purchases, etc. - the expensive stuff that I want the rewards for. I can live with out the rebate for a 14€ train ticket.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 07:10 PM
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isabel - I do. I use the Cap One for hotels. But I don't want to carry more than one around in an easily accessible place. It is just ridiculous that I have to go through hoops to get even a chip plus sig/PIN card, and that I can't get my Cap One cards - which otherwise are designed for travelers - with chip and PIN.
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Old Apr 25th, 2015, 07:59 PM
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xyz wrote, "why do you think it's frustrating? Trust me from experience, the chip and signature cards which may have had problems in the past will work 99.9% of the time today when travelling in Europe."

I could be wrong, but I've been assured that I will need a chip & PIN for toll booths in Spain, and since I'm about to take a road trip through Spain, I have found it VERY frustrating to try to ensure that I do, in fact, have true chip & PIN cards. I'm glad to say that I now have both UNFCU and AFCU cards that I have been assured really are chip & PINs -- I hope at least one is!
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Old Apr 26th, 2015, 04:46 AM
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kja and others...Trust me the UNFCU card is indeed, as of now at least, a "true" chip and pin card. It is very easy to check it out. The only US retailer that has turned on emv acceptance at almost all its locations is Walmart. Go into any Walmart store and if you have an aversion to shopping at Walmart (many people do for some reason), buy a chocolate bar. Use your UNFCU card, insert it at the bottom of the terminal and you will see it asks for a pin as soon as it reads the chip. As of today, with the exception of some grandfathered mastercards issued by USAA, no other USA issued credit card will ask for a pin; rather it will complete the transaction without any further verification if the amount is small or ask for a signature. I call that the Walmart test. Of course, because of what USAA pulled about a year and a half ago when, probably bowing to the pressure from the card issuers or realizing that America was not going chip and pin, they withdrew the "true" chip and pin card and substituted the hybrid card similar to Andrews and the others i.e. a signature preferred card with pin fall back.

Let me make it clear, I was an original whiner about this as reports mounted of difficulties Americans were having in Europe, especially at self service kiosks with their magnetic strip chipless cards. There is a thread on Flyer Talk well over 700 pages long devoted to this which is two and a half years old. There were many complaints of people trying to use American cards and finding merchants refusing to complete transactions when a signature was requested under the mistaken impression their liability increased on a pinless transaction. Visa especially remained very adamant that the chip was the most important part of this and pins were not all that necessary as the chip in and of itself provides the security; the exception being if the actual card is lost and their statistics showed this is not a major problem. Since then the card issuers have issued new regulations prohibiting kiosks from not allowing chip and signature transactions and the number of such complaints has dropped substantially. If there is anybody out there who has recently, I stress recently, had any difficulties using a chip and signature card in Europe or elsewhere, please let us know. More and more I am reading on blogs of people returning from Europe who tell us they were shocked to find their chip and signature cards, despite the dire warnings from some, almost always worked everywhere they tried them. My complaint always had been the ticketing machines for the RER at CDG airport run by SNCF (the official name of the French National Railroad System( would not work without a pin making me have to get on a long queue to see a human. That has been rectified. Others have reported success even in Amsterdam with some of the ticketing machines. The new visa regulations seem to be having the desired effect.

Are there very isolated places where a chip and pin card is necessary? Well that's what we're going to find out by 01 July when the new regulations go into effect mandating all kiosks to have provisions to accept transaction without offline pins.

Until then, if one is very much paranoid about whether theist chip and signature cards will always been accepted, go out and get the card from UNFCU. It is not my favorite card as it imposes a 1% foreign transaction fee, 1% higher than it should be but then again I guess one can't have everything. Also, I can't guarantee they won't pull a USAA and change the cvm's to signature priority. Just recently, Navy FCU had announced they would be issuing a "true" chip and pin card and then suddenly without warning decided to go with chip and signature with pin back up. But do remember, if indeed the problem with non acceptance of signature priority cards has been more or less resolved, the security is a non issue as in the United States, and most other countries too, we have zero liability for fraud whereas there have been several instances, like in Great Britain a few years ago, where banks have tried to claim that some fraudulent activity with chip and pin cards was the fault of the cardholder until they discovered indeed some of these hacker groups had compromised the system. That is as sure to happen as the fact the sun will rise in the east tomorrow and set in the west. Just a matter of time, What's next? Retina scans?
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Old Apr 26th, 2015, 07:26 AM
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What's next? Retina scans?
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Old Apr 26th, 2015, 09:20 AM
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"As of today, with the exception of some grandfathered mastercards issued by USAA, no other USA issued credit card will ask for a pin"

Sorry, but that's false info. Government employees have had access to chip/pin technology for some time. Pentagon employees need to travel with credit cards and their cards need to work all around the world while they conduct business.

If you can become a member of PenFed.org, you can have access to several chip-and-PIN Visa cards. They send you the PIN a day or two after you receive the chip card. If you qualify, some of their cards offer the best benefits in the industry, such as no Foreign Transaction Fee and the lowest APRs I've ever seen.
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