scdreamer

I looked at the archives on this forum and didn't see much on this topic that is very recent. Forgive me if I missed this info.

Will be in London in a week or so, and my debit card does not have chip and pin. The debit card, which requires a pin to get cash from an ATM, can also be used as a M/C for purchases, without employing a pin, but I never use it that way. Actually, neither of the two credit cards I am bringing along are chip and pin, either.

Will I run into problems getting cash or charging anything? I was planning to get cash from the airport ATM when I arrive, but will also be using bank ATMs to get cash over the two weeks I will be in London. And I plan to use credit cards for purchases.

janisj

>>I looked at the archives on this forum and didn't see much on this topic that is very recent.<<

This is discussed several times every week.

>>Will be in London in a week or so, and my debit card does not have chip and pin.<<

The issue w/ Chip/PIN cards is re <u>credit cards</u> not Debit cards. The PIN you use w/ your debit card will work in cash machines anywhere in the UK.

You won't have any problems getting cash (assuming you tell your bank you will be using the debit card outside the US)

As for your credit cards - they will work most places. You will occasionally run into someplace that doesn't know how to process non Chip/PIN cc's. But IME 95%+ of shops, restaurants, museums, ticket machines, petrol stations, etc can take non-chip cards.

xyz123

London is used to dealing with American tourists with their archaic credit cards. As such, there are very few merchants, very few indeed who will not know how to use a US magnetic strip credit card. In any event, there are now virtually no US banks that issue true chip and pin cards. Even some of the banks tht claim to issue chip and pin cards actually issue chip and signature preferred cards. It's not really important to go into the differences. Even most machines in the underground take USA credit cards contrary to what some people claim. Mainline ticketing machines don't always but you can always go to the ticket window and deal with a real live human being and one advantage of being in Britain is that the two languages, English and American if indeed you are from America are very similar and in general we can understand each other easily enough.

As far as ATM's, they will definitely work without an emv chip, rest assurer. Be aware of whatever fees your bank charges for withdrawing cash in a foreign ATM. The British bank, if you use a proper bank's ATM will charge you the proper fee which is nothing. Whatever fees you pay will be what your bank chooses to rip you off with. As far as using the debit card (mc or visa) part of the debit card, don't do it. You lose many of the protections using a credit card offer to you including disputing shoddy merchandise. And while the banks, to try to encourage you to use the debit cards as if they are credit cards have become somewhat better in dealing with fraud perpetrated on debit cards, you will be out actual money until it is restored should you card number be compromised. If your credit card is compromised, it's no problem as virtually no bank gives a hard time with credit card fraud. A few phone calls will alleviate the problem and no actual money will be lost by you! (they rid the account of fraudulent charges almost instantly now).

So don't worry about it. You'll be fine. Of course if you were going to the Netherlands, that might be a different answer (although you will be able to use the ATM's most asuredly).

Sarastro

<i>there are now virtually no US banks that issue true chip and pin cards.</i>

This statement is of course untrue. The Mastercard issued by USAA has no annual fee, USAA adds no foreign transaction fees, and every foreign transaction requires using the pin. Signatures for such transactions are never requested and never accepted.

UNFCU has a Visa card that is true pin and chip, and there are a host of other credit unions which contract their credit card services with PSCU Financial Services which issues true pin and chip cards. PSCU serves over 1,500 different credit unions in the USA.

xyz123

USAA passes along the 1% ftf that mc imposes. There are banks that eat it.

Now for the story. Until two days ago, I agreed with you about USAA. When I opened the mc account about a year ago for its chip and pin ability I failed to join cash rewards. And indeed the card worked fine as a chip and pin card. It wasn't my favorite card to use because of the 1% ftf and I have a card that gives me 1% cash back for all charges and eats the 1% in effect giving me 2%. So the card from USAA was only if I ran into any place that would not do a chip and signature transaction. I did use the card for a couple of very small purchases where losing 2% wouldn't matter much (it still hurt) and lo and behold at several pos terminals where my other emv card defauled to chip and signature it indeed worked as chip and pin.

But I am a greedy person and didn't feel like losing the 1% ftf and could at least make that up by joining the USAA rewwards program. So I joined that and they sent me a replacement card. Same numbe, same expirtion date. Boy was I a happy camper.

So on Wednesday I go to Walmart to check the whole thing out. For those Americans reading this stuff, walmart is the only American retailer that has turned on emv at just about all its store and if you have a card with an emv chip you are now required to insert it at Walmart and not swipe it. I had also read that people with the USAA card as well as foreigners with chip and pin cards were indeed being asked for pins at Walmart emv terminals. So I purchase stuff worth about $65 and go on the check out line. I insert my new USAA card (the replacement card) and am ready and waiting for the terminal to ask me to insert my pin when it flashes signature required and I have to sign for the transaction (walmart does not require signatures for amounts under $50). Why no pin? Maybe Walmart doesn't want a pin. Anyway alarm bells go off in my head.

I get home. I go to the Walmart sub website of credit cards and there are q&a regarding chipped cards. It goes through the whole thing about how they will be offering their entire line of credit cards with emv chips early next year bla blah blah. And then they say in using the new chipped cards, sometimes you will be asked for a signature and sometimes you will be asked for a pin. What? If it were a true chip and pin card, then I would always be asked for a pin and never for a signature. I call customer service and of course they have no idea of what I'm talking about. So I dash off an email to USAA saying please make sure the person who answers this knows what they're talking about. I still haven't gotten an answer. Adding to the mystery, their web site now said I could choose my own pin for cash advances and some credit card transactions. So I decide to do so and it goes through but there was no intervention of the card so my guess is the pin is an online pin not an offline pin.

Bottom line. Although the evidence is circumstantial, it looks like USAA has abandoned for new cards its being a "true" chip and pin card and ha joined the rest of the USA banks which seems to be the direction the USA banks are going of issuing credit cards that are primarily chip and signature with chip and pin capabilities (the phrase Barclay used to describe its upgraded to emv master card). Now I am still waiting for confirmation of this from USAA as they have not answered my email.

Bottom line. Instead of functioning as a chip and pin card my new USAA mc functioned as a chip and signature card. It now leaves me skeptical as I am leaving for a holiday/cruise in Europe tomorrow night. My first stop is Paris. I had intended to use the card at the SNCF ticketing machine at CDG. While RATP machines on the metro do even continue to take the archaic American magnetic strip cards, the machines operated by SNCF (which is the French national railroad; RATP is the local Paris metro operator) do not and apparently require an offline pin. Will I have to wait on the long queue to have human intervention? The answer my friends is blowing in the wind...no I mean to say I will know Monday morning but it really does seem USAA has abandoned its true chip and pin card. And if that is so, that leaves UNFCU as the only "true" chip and pin card available to US residents as Diners Club is no longer taking applications from US residents but is just a glorified mastercard today with a rewardss program but a 3% ftf.

End of long story.

Heimdall

USAA is the exception to which xyz123 referred when he wrote "virtually". I have a USAA chip & pin credit card, but it is mainly for customers who live or travel frequently overseas. USAA won't give you a chip & pin unless you ask for one, and of course not everyone is eligible to bank with USAA.

The other day I made a purchase in the UK with my USAA chip & pin card from a shop where their machine was malfunctioning and couldn't read the chip. They quite happily completed the transaction with my signature.

janisj

>>and of course not everyone is eligible to bank with USAA<<

Unfortunately - the vast majority are not eligible for USAA . . .

Sarastro

<i>USAA passes along the 1% ftf that mc imposes.</i>

True, USAA passes along the 1% currency conversion fee of Maestro/Cirrus but does not add foreign transaction fees. My USAA credit cards also reimburse 1% of all purchases.

<i> If it were a true chip and pin card, then I would always be asked for a pin and never for a signature.</i>

Not so fast with this assumption. Every bankcard issued from a European bank is a true chip and pin card. In Paris I bank at LCL and my bankcard also has a magnetic strip just like all US credit cards have. I am sure it´s the same with UK banks. When travelling in the USA, French bankcard holders have their cards swiped and they sign the receipt just like you do.

<i>Bottom line. Instead of functioning as a chip and pin card my new USAA mc functioned as a chip and signature card. </i>

If you use a USAA pin and chip card in Europe, you must use the pin, you will never be asked for a signature, nor will a signature be accepted to complete the transaction. The USAA pin and chip is indeed a true pin and chip card. I do not shop at Walmart and have no idea what they are planning. Best Buy, Target, and Home Depot are also installing chip reading terminals and I assume they plan on using them in the future.

<i>I made a purchase in the UK with my USAA chip & pin card from a shop where their machine was malfunctioning and couldn't read the chip. They quite happily completed the transaction with my signature.</i>

In this case, the USAA card was used as any magnetic strip credit card and in the same way as I might use my LCL card when in the USA. The fact that a card´s magnetic strip can be used with a signature for a purchase does not mean that it is not an EMV card.

mirandaverandah

I was searching articles on chip and pin vs chip and signature, and one article stated that chip and pin works in a couple of ways. The chip can programmed with a non-changeable PIN(chip and pin) or set as chip and signature. The card readers are alos programmed to ask for either a PIN or a signature, but not both. As an example, if a true C and P card is put into a signature machine, then the PIN has to be entered, but a C and Sig card will spit out a receipt.

From what I understood, it's the setting of the machine that really determines what option you are presented with. Of course it could have all changed by now because I can't remember how old the article was.

xyz123

Bottom line. Instead of functioning as a chip and pin card my new USAA mc functioned as a chip and signature card.

"If you use a USAA pin and chip card in Europe, you must use the pin, you will never be asked for a signature, nor will a signature be accepted to complete the transaction. The USAA pin and chip is indeed a true pin and chip card. I do not shop at Walmart and have no idea what they are planning. Best Buy, Target, and Home Depot are also installing chip reading terminals and I assume they plan on using them in the future."

That was the whole point I was trying to make. Yes the USAA card I had functioned that way. And people here who had the same card I had (note the past tense) have indicated when they used the card at a Walmart emv terminal, it asked for a pin.

Now I get a new card to replace the other and use it at Walmart and instead of asking for a pin, it asked for a signature. True not conclusive one way or the other. Then I read the blurb on the USAA web site which is new indicating that sometimes you will be asked for a signature and sometimes you will be asked for a pin. Not conclusive one way or the other. True. Then I'm told I could change my pin online. Now it's been claimed that the pin on a chip and pin card is embeded in the chip yet I changed my pin and no way was the card involved. The web site simply said my pin had been updated and again reminded me that with the credit card, sometimes a signature will be required and sometimes a pin will be requested. Still nothing definite although what I've said is this circumstantial evidence is indicative that USAA has changed its verification method. Frankly I won't know for sure till Monday when I try to use the card in Paris both at CDG and at a restaurant I frequent in Paris. I didn't come out and say I know the answer. But along with the recent announcement by Barclay and introduction of its emv chipped premium arrival card (the card with no annual fee for us peasants is still not available from them with an emv chip) where right smack on their web site they state unequivacably that the card is chip and signature preferred with chip and pin capabilities which we already know is true of many of the USA cards claiming to be chip and pin are all indications to me of what is probably happening with the USA conversion to emv chips. The US banks have been pretty adamant that 1) they have credit card fraud under control when losse due to fraud amount to only 13¢ on every $100 of profit and b) Americans who tend to carry more cards than many others due to the nature of the American payment system and its size, will be resistant to having to memorize 4 or 5 different pins and prefer signature verification and that the presence of the emv chip alone will drastically cut down the cloning of cards, really the only type of credit card fraud emv chips prevent. I'm just repeating their arguments here. I'm not saying I buy into them but that's today reality in the struggle to introduce emv chips to American credit cards.

From a consumer's view, none of it really matters as because of American law, and I am sure the law in other countries, I am protected against credit card fraud for anything above $50 and no bank in the USA, for competitive reasons, even tries to collect the $50. My credit card gets cloned, and it's happened five or six times in the last decade, I call the bank, they ask which charges are fraudulent, they are immediately removed from the account, a new card is issued with a new number. If necessary, the bank is eager for me to get the new card and willl ship it overnight at no charge if I so desire. The only discomfort, and it is relatively minor, is I have to notify those merchants who automatically debit my card (phone companies for example) of the new number, expiration date and security code. But then again you have to do that whenever a new card is issued say with a new expiration date. Therefore it doesn't matter to me, really it doesn't, if the card is chip and pin or chip and signature or even if there is no chip at all. What matters to me is that the card be honored everywhere and unfortunately there is some resistance to honoring the archaic American cards sans chips and even some merchants to not complee transactions where signature verification is required and there are always questions about unpersonneled kiosks. So there is the issue and as of now, I really don't have the definite answer.

Incidentally, I did say USAA passes along the 1% foreign transaction fee of mc but there are some good guy banks that eat it. Obviously it is preferable to make a foreign transaction where the ftf is 0% than one where it is 1% but both are better than those banks that charge 3%!

Hope that clarifies the issue. I will report on my experiences in Paris when next I am able to use a computer.

Andrew

My Andrews Federal Credit Union Visa is a chip and PIN card, but when a human is involved a signature is required. I have used this card with a PIN in France to buy train and Metro/RER tickets from machines, but everywhere else - where a human is involved in processing the transaction, a signature was required.

Perhaps the USAA card works the same way? If so - what's the problem? If it functions as chip and PIN when you need it that way - at a machine - and will work everywhere else via signature, isn't that OK?

Treesa

My recent experience (got back on 5/25). Portugal and Spain, no problem using my Capital One card. Norway and Sweden, no problem. Copenhagen - card not accepted at Bilka Supermarket nor H&M shop on Stroget. We used our card in several restaurants - no problem. Bought Copenhagen City Pass from a machine - no problem. Bought train tickets to Malmo - no problem. I called Capital One and they are looking into this.

scdreamer

Thanks, everyone. Sorry I missed seeing the earlier forum conversations - I think I put in "chip and pin" as subject and nothing came up.

Glad to hear there will be no problem with my debit card in ATMs. Fortunately my bank doesn't charge me for using outside ATMs (even in other countries) and actually credits me any banks charges I might have from using another ATM.

I also have two credit cards that do not charge foreign transaction fees, so I think I'm good to go.

Heimdall

If I'm reading the USAA website correctly, they are introducing Chip cards to replace the old magnetic stripe cards, and these will normally require a signature.

They are still offering Chip and PIN cards under these terms:
"USAA Bank members are eligible to request a chip and PIN card if they plan to work or travel overseas. In the coming years, when more U.S. merchants begin installing the new chip and PIN payment terminals, USAA Bank will convert all of its credit cards to this technology."

Up until now my USAA Chip and PIN credit card is treated like any other Chip and PIN in the UK. I hope that doesn't change.

xyz123

Andrew...In theory there is no problem, agree 100%. However there have been scattered reports, not all that many true, oone from Ireland of somebody tendering the Andrews card in a grocery, the pos terminal accepting the card and indicating signature required and at that point the merchant saying no way Jose or something to that effect and voiding the transaction and saying he could not complete the transaction without a pin. The probe is with the way the card is set up, since the terminal accepted the transaction, you cannot not ask it to process the transaction using the pin. This could be a problem given the way the USA is adopting to emv chips and is apprently putting its eggs in the basket of chip and signature preferred with chip and pin capabilities like the Andrews card. It will work most of the time perhaps almost all the time but there may still be problems in isolated cases. If we can be assured that this will not be a problem, and mc and visa claim merchants are required to honor all valid cards, then there is no problem. It's whether this regulation on the part of mc/visa will have the desired effect that worries me.

I never intended the USAA card to be my major credit card when travelling because of the 1% foreign transaction fee which is a deal killer to me. I have a card which offers no foreign transaction fee and gives me at least 1% cash back on every transaction. That's a better deal than USAA but I was hoping the USAA card would cover those tranactions, whether few in number, where a problem might arise. Like I said, I will be in Paris on Monday and the big test will occur upon arrival when I buy my RER ticket from CDG to Gare du nord. I'm hoping the ne card will work.

xyz123

Update...Being the very fair minded person I am (contrary perhaps to the opinion of others) I did get a polite response from USAA (no sarcasm at all intended) from a person who seemed very knowledgeable for once on the subject claiming there has been no change in the card other than the ability to update the pin on their web site. I have no reason to doubt him or her. The suggestion was perhaps the terminal reacted differently than other Walmart terminals. Possibly.

So I will have to hold off and see what happens in Paris on Monday both at the RER station at CDG and at the restaurant I will be dining at Monday evening. Unfortunately I do not now of any internet cafes in Paris that are reasonable and open so I don't know if I'll be able to report back until I return. I'll be in Paris a couple of days, fly to Copenhagen for a Baltic cruise, after the cruise stop off in London on the way home (where I do know of internet cafes) and be home three weeks from today.

I will try to get back to report. I don't mean to be impolite to anybody. Just reorting the facts, just the facts. Jack Webb would be so proud of me.

Sarastro

<i>see what happens in Paris on Monday both at the RER station at CDG</i>

The RATP kiosks in Terminal 2 will require a chipped card. The kiosks at Roissypôle may not.

<i>I do not now of any internet cafes in Paris that are reasonable</i>

Starbucks and McDonnald´s have free internet as well as do many cafés. Every park in Paris also has free internet available. CDG airport offers 30 minutes of free internet access to anyone accessing their site.

xyz123

Thanks. BTW I do have chipped cards available but the question is ehter they have online or offline pins or none at all.

jrbman

I just got back from Europe (France & Sweden) with my new USAA chip+PIN card and it did NOT work as a true chip+PIN in Europe. Every merchant terminal treated it as a chip+signature. I worked via email with USAA support who said they checked my card settings and it was a chip+PIN. They suggested I change my PIN, so I did but I was still prompted for my signature.

Interestingly I did get prompted for my PIN once: In Paris when purchasing tickets at an unmanned metro machine. (And it accepted my card using the second PIN I had selected, proving that I did successfully change my PIN as USAA support told me to do.) So there's something about the USAA chip+PIN card that causes it to be treated as chip+signature at a regular merchant (which is most of the time) but as chip+PIN at unmanned kiosks. This makes it somewhat useful since at least you don't have to wait in line for a cashier to buy rail tickets, but otherwise it's no better than an old-fashioned card. And it's maddening that USAA, which usually is so competent, continues to claim theirs is a true chip+PIN card for use in Europe when my many purchases in Sweden and France make it clear that it's not.

This chip+signature card is especially a problem in Sweden because they aren't used to chip+signature and the cashiers would often get flummoxed. They'd always ask me for my "identification card" and then have no idea what to do with my USA driver's license, and one grocery store refused to even accept my card. Fortunately my Swedish sister-in-law bailed me on that time using her chip card that was always prompted for a PIN, so it is not the merchant terminals; it is the USAA card that is the problem.

Sarastro

I cannot comment on USAA PIN and chip in Sweden but as I do live in Paris, I can say that whenever we use our USAA cards here, they always ask for a PIN, no matter where we use them.

Apparently, there are on-line PIN and chip cards, cards that check the entered PIN on-line for authentication and there are off line PIN and chip cards, cards that have the PIN burned into the card. I am suspicious that early USAA cards were off line PIN and chip. Later cards may be on-line PIN and chip and may default to PIN and signature in certain circumstances when a vendor may not have on-line access to confirmation that a correct PIN was entered.

I actually use, for most purchases, a PenFed PIN and chip Visa which defaults to PIN and signature for most purchases. The PenFed card has no annual fee and PenFed absorbs the currency conversion fee meaning there are no fees when using this card. My PedFed Visa has been accepted everywhere I have ever attempted to use it to include various pay-at-the-pump gas stations. It is even accepted by the SNCF for the purchase on-line of train tickets.