Well consider something besides pricing - the flexibility a pass provides in most of your countries, except Italy, to just hop any train anytime and if you are over 25 the pass is first class and that IME of decades of European rail travel has significant benefits (especially for folks hauling luggage around as there is IME a lot more place to easily stow them in first class over 2nd class) - so you are comparing fully flexible first-class tickets to severely restricted discount tickets that typically cannot be changed nor refunded once issued and have to be booked months in advance often to secure.

And what if you cannot get discounted tickets for every segment - then you pay full price for that segment - ouch.

A Global Eurail Flexipass that gives you X number of days to be used over a 2-month period - anytime you wish - may be agood bet and would also cover in full boat passage between Greece and several ports in Italy - you are really traveling so much in so many places the pass to me seems a good thing and again you chose which trains to take once there.

For lots of great stuff on European trains, passes, etc I always spotlight these IMO superb sites - www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com (good info on the discounted ticket route) and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

Hi HA,

It is almost always cheaper to buy tickets in advance, but the only way to know is to price the train tickets and compare it to the cost of a pass.

Note that for reserved-seating, high speed trains the railpass has limited seating availability and requires payment for reservations.

Are you an EU citizen? If not, it will be difficult to find work.

It's a matter of doing the math. We're not likely to do it for you. How do you plan to work in Germany if you aren't an EU citizen?

If you are not an EU citizen it will be not only extremely difficult, but also very probably illegal to work. Not sure who would be wiling to hire you to do what for cash under the table?

Note that for reserved-seating, high speed trains the railpass has limited seating availability and requires payment for reservations.>

No this is just not true - only in France, where you are not going do high-speed trains have limited seating availability and only in Italy on your list of countries do railpass holders have to make a seat reservations and these have always been a snap to get IME.

Australians aged 18 -30 are eligible for working holiday visas in many European countries (and the US) and can quite legally find short term work.

It is almost certainly not worth having a pass in Eastern Europe and Greece. Nor is it worth buying tickets in advance there, except for the longest or overnight trips. Nor do you need first class. In the course of many European train trips I think I've paid for first class only once, and it wasn't that much better.

I agree with the others. What makes you think you can work in Germany? Also, you need to be aware of the 90 in 180 day limit on visitors in the Schengen zone.

thanks everyone for your help yes i think i will calculate each individual travel to each city, then compare it to the cost of the eurail pass, and see if it is worth the extra hassle of individual tickets.

i forgot to mention i have a dual citizenship: Australian & German. so the embassy said i can work anywhere in europe. but now im concerned, does this '90 in 180 day limit on visitors in the Schengen zone' apply to me?

No, if you have German citizenship you're fine.

No, you're good to go if you're a German citizen. Have fun.

It is almost certainly not worth having a pass in Eastern Europe and Greece.>

Well a classic Eurailpass perhaps but the European East Pass can be a great deal in eastern Europe - a flexipass over a 1-month period it gives you first class travel for $60 a day - unlimited day of train travel or about 42 euros a day and in 2nd class it is just $228 for 5 days or about $46/day or 33 euros a day - so 32 euros a day could make the pass viable in Eastern Europe, depending of course on how many train trips you take within a one-month period.

and though trains in Greece are practically useless if you have a Eurail Pass that includes Greece you do get free overnight boat passage between Greece and several Italian ports - this could be a tidy sum.

So I disagree with the blanket statement that "it is almost certain that a railpss is not worth having in Eastern Europe or Greece - it may or may not be depending on your travels - and also whether you want flexibility to just hop on any train any time in the countries covered - online discounted tickets could easily cost 32 euros for along train trip or more and they are typically highly restricted and often cannot be changed nor refunded and are sold in limited numbers, meaning they have to be booked in stone often weeks in advance.

given your wide range of train travel I would indeed look at the Glocal Eurail Flexipass that lets you hop on any train anytime, except in Italy where it is easy to make a reservation with a pass IME and you also get free deck passage on boats between Greece and Italy (from Patras and Corfu).

...does this '90 in 180 day limit on visitors in the Schengen zone' apply to me?

Not if you enter Schengen on your German passport.

thanks guys. which website would you recommend as the cheapest for the eastern europen pass? Eurail doesnt seem to offer 2nd class passes. they only offer 2nd class for under 25 year olds, but i am 26. i am looking to save as much money as i possibly can. so i am happy to be in 2nd class.
ans for Italy, you recommend no pass? just buy individual train tickets on the day?

Very intresting, I'm looking for train advice as well. Sorry Henry, we are doing Austria, Germany and Switzerland and I don't want to book in advance but want FLEXIBLITY. Yes dragging my suitcase and no not 25...heee

Broncott - look at the Eurail Select Saverpass valid for 3 countries - Austria, Switzerland and Germany - it is first class if over 25 so you get the immense benefits IME of decades of rail travel in those countries as well as complete flexibility to just show up and hop on virtually any train anytime in those three countries - something that is priceless to me.

Broncott - there are other possibilities too - like a Swiss Pass for Switzerland, which has a lot more benefits in Switzerland than a Eurailpass - covering many of the so-called private mountain railways, lake boats and giving free entry to 400+ museums that Eurailpasses do not - and it is cheaper per day and also comes in 2nd class for any ages.

Combine this with a Germany-Austria pass and you may well end up with cheaper per day on unlimited rail travel in those countries vs a more expensive Eurailpass - more travel days for the same price.

I have problems understanding the argument so often used regarding the Railpass and one of the best things always touted as its flexibility.

Travelers make binding reservations for air travel to/ from gateway- travelers make accomodation reservations for specific dates, locations. often these with just limited refundability - but then some argue to have a flexible more costly travel pass- ?

Most all counties have steep dicounts for train tickets purchased in advance.
Many have special fares.
examples Bayern Ticket,or land tickets in Germany.
In Austria Spar Schein tickets, Einfach raus tickets - cheap

flexibility to me at least and some others above is priceless. You make it sound so so easy to nab one of those discounted and severely restricted online fares - have you tried booking one thru the French Railways site or the notoriously fickle Trenitalia and Renfe (Spain) railway sites - have you read the scores and scores of posts here from folks whobecame very frustrated with the process, often spending hours trying to track down such tickets?

Have you had a lengthy trip that foreigners may take involvoing several long train trips and you manage to scour some discount tickets but can't get them for some other segments, then having to pay full fare - ouch

You make it sound so easy and for you an Austrian resident I gather it may be a snap - you'll be taking one train trip probably and maybe inside Austria, etc. - then it is a snap but to coordinate such tickets for a multi-country journey just ain't as easy as it sounds often.

And if you look at say the German Pass I calculated that 4 train trips at the rock-bottom online fare would equal four days of unlimited travel on any train in Germany anytime - as cheap as the discounted tickets but free to hop any train anytime.

And if you go above 4 days extra days are about 14 euros a day - for two even cheaper than the Lander Tickets and you can take any train anytime whereas the Lander Ticket restricts you to much slower and much less comfy regional trains.

Inside a country those specials are easier to figure out but they do not always exist even on international routes - like Paris to Copenhagen - etc.

And a first-class railpass is first class - fully flexible first class so compared to 2nd class restricted tickets that in many countries must be booked months in advance and simply are not available at times after the allotted number is exhausted - well it is not always so easy as it is in Austria or Germany.

A pass will not include mandatory seats on any of the faster trains in Italy. You will also have to pay supplements (in addition to the price of the pass) on many trains.

For Greece, a rail pass isn't really beneficial as you would likely be using ferries/buses.

>>> be agood bet and would also cover in full boat passage between Greece and several ports in Italy <<<

While a pass might cover getting on this boat (off season only), it would only be deck passage, no seating/cabin (this is an overnight boat). You would also have to pay a supplement with a pass in season even for deck passage.

Here's a list of supplements you would have to pay with a pass.

http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/pdfs/reservations.pdf

In Italy, you can often book tickets online, in advance, for the fast trains, cheaper than the cost of the seat supplement. You can get tickets as cheap as 9€.

Budget airlines are often cheap as well.

http://www.whichbudget.com/
www.skyscanner.com

Pal- I suppose that you only book airfare to give you complete flexibility and just a short time before traveling - thus paying a huge premium- I do not believe you do.
Perhaps you do not reserve accomodations in advance - thus not insuring the hotel,location, price , room type - arrive and then search for a room- get the one available - with situation you do not like - perhaps next to the elevator- smoking too.
I do not think so.

It becomes tiresome to see your constant "Pass argument wihout validity and most often having many posters saying your contention just wrong

Even more is your tendency to give advice most often needing correction.

First Class - most everyone including locals travel 2nd- same train, same time, no trouble storing luggage ( excepring those bringing most of their worldly possessions.

And often on regional routes - no first class passage at all. You sit next to be with your first class ticket- I sit with my cheap ticket.

Vienna- Salzburg - 25 euro- no advance - I buy on the train when I travel- double decked cars so no problem space wise- so much for flexibility.

Travelling internationally - I made my hotel reservation- why not my cheap train ticket too. I can use my money elsewhere.

Travelling internationally - I made my hotel reservation- why not my cheap train ticket too. I can use my money elsewhere.>

I have had over 50 1st class railpasses and have always found them to be a great value for me and many Europeans do travel in first class - there are inevitably 2-4 first class cars on an average long-distant train and Europeans indeed do travel in them and pay extra for the privilege - cheapest is not always the best.

And by flexibility I mean rolling out of bed in a hotel when I want to and getting to the station when I want to and if on the train I want to take a few-hour break in some city en route as I often do - no problem.

A few trips yes the discounted route makes sense but I think you fail to put yourself into the shoes of the average traveler on the trip of a lifetime where they will typically take several train trips and then the difference sometimes between a pass price - first class pass price - may not be that much more than a series of discounted second class restricted tickets and again they are not nearly always available as you seem to think - maybe in Austria they are but not so in other countries.

But yes the mantra seems to be if you can save one euro with 2nd class restricted tickets over a pass you are being ripped off by a pass.

I stand by my decades of European train travel that there is a world of difference between first and second class - no not on regional trains but most folks do not take those.

I will continue to present passes as a possibility and let the poster make their own calculations and choice - I never recommend a pass if there is not sufficient train travel to warrant looking at it.

"coordinate such tickets for a multi-country journey just ain't as easy as it sounds often."

Nonsense. A few years back I traveled by train from Scotland to Saigon. 17,000 miles plus a bunch more miles in detours I didn't count. I did not use a rail pass. I used a TA only for the Trans-Mongolian, and even for that I did all the research and specified which tickets I wanted.

I have traveled first class on a train one time, in France. It did not seem to me to be worth the cost.

I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel every time someone wants to travel by train.

So if you are tired of seeing his posts, just ignore it. I have used both a rail pss and individual tickets and found both to be worthwhile alternatives to my situation. This is a forum. Like so many posters have stated, one needs to do the math.

One of my enjoyments of this forum is to see the various thoughts of individuals. There is more than one solution to each situation.

>>>It becomes tiresome to see your constant "Pass argument wihout validity and most often having many posters saying your contention just wrong<<<

I agree. The OP asked what would be cheaper, not what someone had been doing for decades. Things have really changed in the last few years (dozens of budget airlines, train upgrades, etc.) and just because you've done something for decades doesn't mean it's the best or cheapest thing to do. Often flights are cheaper between long distances with so many budget airlines in Europe.

It's much easier to get discounts now that you can book them online. Everyone has a phone to access the internet so it's not like you can't book a day or two ahead.

>>>I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel every time someone wants to travel by train.<<<

It's especially odd when the same person posts about staying in 1 star hotels/B&B's/hostels. I would much rather spend on my hotel than on a train ride. "Trip of a lifetime" to me doesn't mean 1st class train ride and a 1 star hotel.

I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel every time someone wants to travel by train.>

so I should be silent and not advocate the way I and many others like to travel? Just because it annoys you?

No because I present an alternative info that folks like kybourbon never present even if viable - rather it is always 2nd class tickets booked months in advance that are in practice hard to change are the way to go even if they save only a relatively little money over a first-class pass.

Anyway I will continue to present both sides as I always (check my posts) do - I mention the discounted tickets as well as, if they are traveling enough, a pass and also do distinguish between first and second class and again I have traveled on zillions of trains in many countries - not just one country and I adamantly state that there is a lot of difference between the classes and that many Europeans indeed do pay more for the benefits of first class.

Now 2nd class is adequate but on the trip of a lifetime you will generally find a much more relaxed journey in first class for reasons I state above. Those who deny those reasons simply IMO have not had much overall experience riding trains all over Europe, not just in one country.

And for anyone who says no Europeans ride first class that is simply misinformation and shows a shallowness of experience.

As for the OP - going to Germany, Eastern Europe, Greece, Italy, Austria and back to Germany - well anyone taking that many trains should at least consider a pass - the boat ride - even deck passage between Greece and Italy that the pass covers may be worth $100 or so alone! - Anyway with such a wide-ranging itinerary in several countries to say that the OP should not even think about a railpass is simply silly - they should examine the cost of discounted tickets vs the pass and then make a judgment - if 2nd class tickets with severe restrictions on use even approach the cost of a first-class pass then it's a no-brainer - even though some here would say if you save a single euro then the pass is a rip-off.

I will continue to present both options, something others never ever do and will continue to describe the difference between 1st and 2nd classes something some others refuse to recognize.

And in the OP's position I would take a good look at a pass and not be snowed by misinformation that passes are always a rip-off.

I think one person here seems too defensive. No one has advocated that someone remain silent.
Unfortunately it seems this person does not like it when someone seems to not agree with their postings and makes an opinion with facts.
Some seem to receive wrath as they are labelled as locals who only seem to use their own national network." Have not had much overall experience riding trains all over Europe " Strange for someone to say this not even knowing the individual,their travel habits, economic situation , travel desires etc.


Perhaps it is just the poster ,who finds most not agreeing with his posting advice, has been frequently corrected for posting inaccurate info, by those who have had recent experiences on individual subjects.

Times change - trains now have rejested steam and move on. Their services change also.

I personally have a life other than this forum, become tired of this type of thing seen above. It seems I am not alone. Poster Pal
probably remembers the numerous postings I have personnally made to corect bad information that he supplied.

Point of view is one thing- just bad info is another.

That said I will continue to advocate that railpasses be at least mentioned as a possibility when warranted - for the reasons I always do. Something I have never ever heard you mention - to you it is always foolish to even mention a railpass. Well you post what you want and let me do as well without your attacks on my vcharacter, etc.