Can’t anybody spell Düsseldorf (Duesseldorf)?

I am a major nitpicker, but I do not pick this particular nit. Frankly, I prefer to see Dusseldorf or Zurich rather than Duesseldorf or Zuerich. Naturally, for those who have mastery of the umlaut, it is better to üse it.

The "ü" or "ue" vs "u" can matter when checking train schedules or researching Germany language websites (searching for hotels etc.).

Regards, Gary

I wouldn't pick that nit either since airlines like Delta that fly there use the spelling of Dusseldorf which is probably where most people are getting the spelling.

kerouac, it's not a matter of mastering the umlauts, it's noting how the word is actually spelled. Since correct spelling doesn't matter, how about we start using Roam (cap. of Italie), Spane, Pairus, etc.

As for checking train schedules, a few years ago, typing 'Fussen' on the Bahn website would get you a bus stop on Fussen Strasse somewhere, not the town in southern Bavaria. Now they have added an "ignorance algorithm" and offer a selection of stops, including Füssen Bahnhof, assuming you might have left off the umlaut.

At the same time, www.füssen.de as a URL would give you an error message. Now füssen.de and fuessen.de both work, but fussen.de only works if you have previously been to füssen.de. The URL koeln.de gets you a lecture, in German, about using Ö.

And isn't the capital of Kentuckie Frankfurt?

I am very familiar with the ulmauts but I personally don't want to take the time to copy and paste an umlauted "u" since my American laptop does not have the umlauted letters on the keyboard. If I was still in my German classes in college I would have made the effort, but this is a travel forum and I think everyone knows which Dusseldorf we are referring to despite the lack of the umlaut.

Tracy

I have no problem making the correct diacritical marks on my American keyboard - it's easy - but I don't expect most people to do it. And I really don't like the alternative of adding the e, as in Duesseldorf (I know it's correct, but to my eye it looks weird). And I do know that the u is a completely different letter from the ü, with a different pronunciation. But frankly, I'm more inclined to pick nits about things like Sienna or Orveito or Dordonge or Normany or the 26 variations on itinerary.

I do hear you about not being able to research accurately without the right spelling, but I guess a lot of people manage to do that.

Actually, if we are writing in English, the correct spelling is indeed Dusseldorf, Zurich, Saarbrucken, etc. If writing in German, they would be completely incorrect.

Generally, I am in favor of using the traditional adapted spellings devised for our normal language, such as Rome instead of Roma or Brussels instead of Brussel or Bruxelles (Am I correct in believing that the German spelling is Brüssel?). If you start imposing the way names are spelled in the country of origin, we are already in big trouble for Moscow, Tokyo or Beijing.

Cologne, Köln, Munich, München, Florence, Firenze, Turin, Torino, everybody knows what is meant. I find references to 'Birmingham, England' and 'London, England' very amusing, but I know that Americans are used to that terminology and I forgive them.

I would be more concerned with idlers who can't be bothered to use capital letters at all or who ask questions that two minutes of research can answer. That says more about them than not knowing where to find an umlaut on an English or American keyboard.

So try booking a train ticket to "Fussen" on the DB website. You will end up in a village named Fussenberg somewhere behind Regensburg.

"Fuessen" is a perfectly correct alternative spelling if one cannot type the Umlaut. The German language offers this easy solution to the problem. Simply omitting it, however, is plain wrong and can be misleading.

>>Larryincolorado on Nov 8, 09 at 12:50pm
kerouac, it's not a matter of mastering the umlauts, it's noting how the word is actually spelled. Since correct spelling doesn't matter, how about we start using Roam (cap. of Italie), Spane, Pairus, etc.It's not that the spelling in incorrect.<<<

It's not that the spelling is incorrect. It's the English spelling and you want everyone to use the German version even if they aren't German. You need to take a look at how different languages spell cities. Paris/Paree/Parigi, etc.

>>>In German<<<

Big Gasp! You used German. Shouldn't it have been Deutsch? How do you expect anyone to know what you are talking about using the wrong spelling for the language?

Who uses the spelling Paree?

Dusseldorf translated to English means "stupids village"

Düsseldorf translated to English means "village at the (river) Düssel"

Not the slightest difference,

Just go on insulting those inhabitants and call their town "stupids village". It's an awful place imho anyway

http://www.ruhrgebietssprache.de/lexikon/dussel.html
This definition for Larry, maybe a new word?

I too want to know who uses Paree.

"Düsseldorf is NOT spelled with a ‘u’"

Crap

Complete uneducated crap on stilts with a bonnet on top.

The ONLY correct spelling in English of Dusseldorf is...
...Dusseldorf.

Illiterate Americans might wish it were different. And if they persuade enough equally illiterate fellow citizens to follow their idiocy, Dusseldorf might be called something else in the American dialect of English.

But that doesn't make such absurdities correct. Any more than saying it's in Nordrhein-Westfalen, than saying North Rhine-Westfalia is in Deutschland, or saying that Germany's in Europa.

When we want Germans' advice on how our language should be spoken, we'll ask for it. We haven't yet, and aren't going to. We - not they and certainly not uneducated Americans - decide the English word for German citiesis.

How about we all relax and take a deep breath. So people spell it wrong, or they don't depending on which side you subscribe to. It isn't the end of the world. The point of this forum is to give travel advice, not cut people down because they made a typo or forgot an umlaut. Let's stop trashing people and get back to the actual point of this site.

Yup, those "stupid" Düsseldorferians don't care how you spell their town . That is, only if you are not actually in Düsseldorf talkig to one of them.

Generally, I am in favor of using the traditional adapted spellings devised for our normal language, such as Rome instead of Roma or Brussels instead of Brussel or Bruxelles (Am I correct in believing that the German spelling is Brüssel?). If you start imposing the way names are spelled in the country of origin, we are already in big trouble for Moscow, Tokyo or Beijing.

Absolutely. If writing in English, use the English spelling. I actually think it is pretty pretentious to write things like Napoli, rather than Naples, or Duesseldorf, rather than Dusseldorf.

So try booking a train ticket to "Fussen" on the DB website. You will end up in a village named Fussenberg somewhere behind Regensburg.

Absolutely, positively, 100% not true. If you are using the English site, typing in Fussen gives you results for Fu(e)ssen, not Fussenberg. The DB site also accepts Dusseldorf. It also accepts both Cologne and Koln.

I find it always fascinating how stubborn (or should I use another word that starts with stu...?) people can get when they think that a matter of patriotic pride is affected.

I understand that the OP wanted just to be helpful and, indeed, he was.

If you use the "English" spelling of the Umlaute, you will get problems on the internet. The DB site may accept "Dusseldorf", but if you enter "www.dusseldorf.de" you do not reach the city's official website (with many useful informations for visitors) but a commercial website of questionable quality. The correct internet address is: www.duesseldorf.de

And again: The Umlaut was historically written "ue" and pronounced differently from "u". The "ü" is just an abbreviation of "ue" - so "Duesseldorf" is the proper writing if you have not the character "ü".

National pride is nice, but you go better with the correct place names in their national languages.

Thank you, ,mindyjw! Sometimes I find the attitudes in this forum frustrating.

Travel Gourmet wrote:

"'So try booking a train ticket to "Fussen" on the DB website. You will end up in a village named Fussenberg somewhere behind Regensburg.'

Absolutely, positively, 100% not true. If you are using the English site, typing in Fussen gives you results for Fu(e)ssen, not Fussenberg. The DB site also accepts Dusseldorf. It also accepts both Cologne and Koln."

Die Bahn website has in the last couple of years started recognizing English spelling for some place names. Popular American destinations like Füssen/Fussen is one of them. It does not always work. I just tried Wurzburg, it gave me lots of streets in Würzburg but not the main train station. Tried Guterloh for Güterloh and it did not work. Munster and Münster are two different cities.

I do not care how anyone spells German cities on this board. Still, folks do need to be aware that there are websites (and real places) where the common English spelling/pronunciation will not work. This would seem to me to be a good point to start this discussion and that might have been the intent.

I asked for the train to St. Goar in the Mainz HBF and so mangled the name that conductor did not know where to direct me though we were standing right next to it. It was a teachable moment.

Regards, Gary

<<National pride is nice, but you go better with the correct place names in their national languages.>>

That would, of course, mean that Germans should not spell Canada as "Kanada"

The issue is not the educated person who knows that they are using the English version of a foreign city's name.
It's people who have no clue that foreign languages can have the nasty attitude to use different spelling for their places.

IMO, it only becomes relevant when you are IN that specific country and try, for example, to set the GPS in your rental car to take you to Münster, but you will alway end up in Munster (150kms East of Münster). Or when you cannot find Köln on the map or road signs because you keep looking for Cologne. Or when you keep running through Munich's central station looking for the train to Vienna.

So, for a first-time visitor to Europe or a specific region it may indeed be helpful to remind him of the proper local spelling.

And Düsseldorf does not get any better no matter if you spell it with "u", "ue", or "ü". The best feature of the city still is the train to Cologne.. err.. Köln

who cares?
when we dont honour the spelling and pronunciation of other cities
who cares who cares who cares

what is so hard about saying moskva
where the hell did moscow come from esp how the americans say it....moss cow
oh comeon people

We were driving from Switzerland (Suisse?/Schwyz?) to the Netherlands (Nederlands?) and all I could find were signs for Deutschland. What the hell is Deutschland?? I was 29 years old and I had never heard of this place called Deutschland. How could they just drop a country into this space without telling anyone? And where the hell had Germany gone??

Get a grip! Don't you have bigger things to worry about! I have a German background...it doesn't offend me in the least.

So, with your concept, I'm sure you spell
Tokyo - 東京
Moscow - Москва
Russia - Россия
Athens - Αθήνα
Tel Aviv - תֵּל־אָבִיב-יָפוֹ
Iran - ایران

I mean, if we are going to do this, then we must get them ALL correct.

By the way, when you come to Florida...Kissimmee is NOT Kiss-a-me, it is Ki-simi. Conch is not Con-cha, it is Konk.
And grits are not actually used in wall repair (unless needed)



dave

In English it is Dusseldorf - if posting in German than if you cannot make the umlah then it guess it would be Dueseeldorf - but although Random House, owners of Fodor's is a German-owned company last i know English was the medium used.

So it's Dusseldorf IMO

I mean should we post Munchen or Munich?

Koln or Cologne?

Venezia or Venice?

Bruges or Brugge?

Roma or Rome?

Firenze or Florence?

>Munchen or Munich?
Neither Munchen nor Munich, it's

München or Muenchen

right - i cannot make the unlah and should have put an e in instead

but in English it's Munich. Period.

Who cares what it is in English or whatever.
In REALITY it is and was München and only München, nothing else .

In another reality however, it is Minga. Still not Münich

Who cares what it is in English or whatever.>

If this forum were largely Germans then it would be Muenchen but it ain't - it's a forum with English the common language - would you post something in German here? Why not? Because it's an American English forum and thus it is Dusseldorf and Munich. Period.

I full well know that Dusseldorf in German should be Duesseldorf - i cannot make the umlah so i put in an e - like in Fuessen. IMO it is not incorrect to say Dusseldorf or Munich or Fussen in this context.

Would you say you are from Deutschland or Germany?

Are you implying that umlaut in English is umlah?

not not implying, just got it wrong - i do not speak German.

I'm from here and here is München or Minga.
Host mi! Oda brauchst a extra Invitäschn
I am from Bayern with München as its capital.

good for you! I like Bavaria and Munich a lot.

Hah, with peace finally settling over Europe tonight, I bet that Larryincolorado didn't know he was starting a new war.

Ja wir Bayern und unsere ausländische Gäst, die Amis lernen eh nie gescheit sprechen.. Geschweige denn Auto fahren

si il est un guerre vrai, puis logos999 n'est pag gagne rien. C'est certainment - ce forum est en anglais, pas Deutsche.

"In REALITY it is and was München and only München, nothing else"

What a prat. When do you Germans plan to drop all references to "Mailand" ?

Perhaps some of the issue relates to the thought the English is the "universal" language (which it is not), so everything should "accept" English.

Good business sense for travel sites? Sure. Good business sense to have street signs in English..?

What this thread illustrates is that while people may use the english spelling, they should not assume that any given location will.

Perhaps guidebooks should not show the English version of names...so a Fodor's map would show Munchen as the primary name, and Munich as the translated name in smaller type. It may, in some small way, be a disservice to always use the english spelling in the decriptions

I also find it irrating when people get annoyed when the locals don't speak english. They may, they may not. But to assume that they must...nein

Ah, il n'y a pas de guerre ici, seulement quelques questions et des responses, n'est-ce pas? Si tu vraiment demande que tout le monde parle ta langue, tu dois rester à la maison .
Et oui, le nom de ma ville c'est München et la langue s'apelle "Deutsch", pas "Deutsche". . Une "Deutsche", c'est une femme qui vient de Deutschland.

FF sake - I can only assume that the property market has really hit the very rock bottom and that there are an aweful lot of very very bored estate agents out there!

What this thread illustrates is that while people may use the english spelling, they should not assume that any given location will.>

right on

but for me to be reprimanded for not knowing how to spell Duessuldorf is more than irritating - it's assuming i do not know how Germans spell it

and if i were writing in German that's how i'd spell it. But i ain't - i'm writing in English, plain and simple.

If i were in Germany asking for info about trains to Munich i would certainly ask for Muenchen.

Duessuldorf

This ain't English either

My country has a low simmering dispute over language (Quebec french) so I'm a bit more aware of the sensitivity of people's own languages and customs. Call it national pride, call it stubborness.It's part of what makes us want to go to these far away places, ya?

Dödeldorf, De*pendorf, Damischdorf, Dimpeldorf. But the real problem is: You can't say "München", maybe you can say "Mün" and "en" bet never "ch".

You say Muenchen i say Munchkin

Are we ready to reopen the discussion of the pronunciation of the name of the composter Gluck?

or Van Gogh?

>>><<National pride is nice, but you go better with the correct place names in their national languages.>>

That would, of course, mean that Germans should not spell Canada as "Kanada"<<<

Right.

In fact, within the European Union, we have started to use the proper national place names in order to avoid confusion.

E.g. years ago, when driving to southern Belgium, you saw roadsigns to "Aix-la-Chapelle" which was very hard to identify for people who wanted to drive to Aachen. Same on the other side of the border with "Lüttich" and Liege.

Communication is much easier when the original names are used.

That's why we don't say "Neu York" anymore (we did, really).

Beethoven! The name is pronounced "hofen" not "hoven". And it's not "Beat" either. Those people that commit these crimes need to be banned from visiting any classical concert.

Next time I'm at a Packer game I'm gonna tip over all the tailgater's grills and picnic tables because they are mis-pronouncing "Bratwürst". Stupid Americans are insulting butchers all over Germany by calling it "Worst". And if I catch them eating beans and Franks (Fraunks) along with their Budweiser (Boodvisor), there will be hell to pay. WWIII.

>"Bratwürst"
It's Bratwurst, not Bratwürst
And if you catch and eat Frank with beans, I don't think he or his wife are going to like it!

<<In fact, within the European Union, we have started to use the proper national place names in order to avoid confusion.>>

So are the Belgians going to get with the programme? It can be a tad confusing when driving to Mons and seeing only signs for Bergen. Or to Lille, and seeing only signs for Rijsel. Or to Mechelen and seeing only signs for Malines. I could go on and on.

I still remember many years ago driving to Antwerp from Germany through Liege (all English spellings). So while I was in Germany, the signs pointed to Antwerpen and Lüttich, then in Belgium they changed to Antwerpen and Luik, then to Anvers and Liège. I almost missed my turn.

At least in Canada where we have two official languages, it's only about whether Montreal and Quebec have an accent or not. (Then again, there was the wholesale renaming of streets in Montreal with English names over the last 20 years!)

"...quelques questions et des responses, n'est-ce pas? Si tu vraiment demande que tout le monde parle ta langue, tu dois rester à la maison .
Et oui, le nom de ma ville c'est München et la langue s'apelle "Deutsch", pas "Deutsche".

Logos, are "des responses" some kind of German version of "des réponses" ? And was it some awkward attempt at German efficiency that made you drop a "p" from s'appelle and the "s" from si tu demandes...

Sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's only for you my dear.
Oder etwa doch nicht

Koln or Cologne?

Neither: KÖLN

Venezia or Venice?

Neither: VENETSIA

Bruges or Brugge?

Neither: BRÜGGE

Roma or Rome?

Neither: ROOMA

Firenze or Florence?

I accept Firenze.

Tell us your take on the Chinese, Japanese, Greek and Russian names, Elina.

Peking or Beijing?

Neither. The REAL name.

duck? the real in-China name of course would have to be in Mandarin, right? Same as the oomlat B.S.

now then children, play quietly, or Katie will come along and spoil your games.

spoil sport

Reims or Rheims

'ranz' or 'reems'

Bilbao is constantly spelled Bilboa...I even started a thread wondering why...got many answers!

Now if we had to use the Welsh word we would not have enough room for them i think

I learnt recently [actually yesterday] that until about 150 years ago in english-speaking countries, Rome was pronounced "Room".

Italy seems to be a particularly fertile ground for English misspellings and mispronunciations most of which follow a familiar pattern: Milan/Milano, Turin/Torino, Naples/Napoli. However there are some more extreme examples: Genoa/Genova, Venice/Venezia, and my favourite, Livorno/Leghorn, though that only applies to hens nowadays.

Actually, a lot of the names used for Italian cities passed through French first -- but a lot of others did not.

One thing I find interesting is which names in the U.S. retain their French names to the French.

For example, it's "New York", but it's "Nouvelle Orléans".
Philadelphia remains "Philadelphie" in the state of "Pennsylvanie".

And then there are the other various states, including Virginie and Virginie Occidentale, Géorgie, the two 'Carolines,' Nouveau Mexique, Louisiane, etc.

Just out of curiosity, 'Louisiane' and 'Nouvelle Orléans' having been named by the French (along with hundreds of other cities), who changed the names into English?

Just out of curiosity, 'Louisiane' and 'Nouvelle Orléans' having been named by the French (along with hundreds of other cities), who changed the names into English?

Well, the French ruled New Orleans for less than 50 years, before selling it to the Spaniards. The French then ruled for a couple of years before selling it to the US. Indeed, the "French" Quarter was actually almost entirely built under Spanish rule. Given that the Louisiana has been part of the US for nearly 4 times as long as it was under French rule, there was plenty of time to change the name.

Bruges or Brugge?

Neither: BRÜGGE

Try again. There is no umlaut in Brugge when written in Dutch.

I like the name Coeur D'Alene. As a french speaker, I am almost sure the way it should be pronounced is not the same as how the locals would say it.

One thing I find interesting is which names in the U.S. retain their French names to the French.>

Yup Detroit is Detroit (named by French for 'straits')

but if only the French could learn to pronounce Chicago and not say Cheeee-cah-go

but then even the Governator of California can't pronounce 'Cal-eee-phone-ny-ia'

While Clinton was president, I laughed every time the news reporters said Arkansas - the Germans pronounce like it is written - Ar Kansas

>>>Tell us your take on the Chinese, Japanese, Greek and Russian names, Elina.<<<

Well, two biggest towns in Russia are of course MOSKOVA and PIETARI. And Parthenon is in ATEENA.

Michel_Paris

I used to live just north of Coeur D'Alene in Canada and can tell you it is most definitely not pronounced the French way...we always pronounced it Core de Lane. Then I moved to Quebec and studied french and realized how off we were!

Another one I am sure near there is Pend Oreille...

When there's an English language version I think it's pretentious to use the local spelling. Would you write about Roma or Venezia ?

Even the aviation abbreviations is DUS instead of e.g. DUE.

I live close to it and can live with DUSSELDORF

I also think people from Nürnberg accept the engl. way: NUREMBERG.

It's not wrong nor does it sound weird. I rather like it

SV

When there's an English language version I think it's pretentious to use the local spelling. Would you write about Roma or Venezia ?

In English, it is Rome and Venice. If speaking/writing in English, then there is no practical reason to use anything other than the accepted English name for the place.

tgourmet puts in a nutshell and why the OP was so ridiculous IMO

I suspect that Larry wanted to stir the pot. He succeeded.

"When there's an English language version I think it's pretentious to use the local spelling."

It is convenient to learn the spelling of places and events in the local language. If you want to know about Wine Fests or Christmas Markets on the Rhine or in Franconia, you will discover a bit more if you go to a German search engine, and search on German nouns and place names. I am thankful when these boards provide me the German language names. For me, it is not pretentious to receive this kind of information; it is useful

Regards, Gary

thankful when these boards provide me the German language names. For me, it is not pretentious to receive this kind of information; it is useful>>

no, gary, but it is a tad precious to refer incessantly to "Firenze", "Venezia" and "Genova".

or to insist upon Duesseldorf. or indeed to assume that the writer of "Dusseldorf" doesn't know about umlauts. perhaps s/he just can't access them on his/her computer. like I can't now.

Well, since this is getting smelly, I think I will sprinkle some Kölnwasser all over myself.

ditto to annhig

to be upbraided by the OP for 'not knowing how to spell Dusseldorf' was pretentious - i certainly well and others too know how to spell Duesseldorf in German but we are using English and in English it's Dusseldorf - the OP headline was inciteful IMO

<<Well, since this is getting smelly, I think I will sprinkle some Kölnwasser all over myself.>>

Since this is a nit-picking thread, what you really want to sprinkle over yourself is Kölnisch Wasser.

I knew I had wrong, but I just couldn't resist trying...

I knew I had it wrong is what I meant to say...

Hmm interesting post.

I'm from the Czech Republic and I've learned not to be so nitpicky.. we have a whole host of markings on the alphabet, and all of them change the pronunciation of the letters.
(Karel Čapek, České Budějovice, Mníšek pod Brdy, Krkonoše). Non-Czechs rutinely ignore all these and transcribe names without any marks.. We do that too in sms messages =) But it does lead to sports events where they completely misrepresent and mispronounce the names of our athletes.

I just think one has to accept that the English-speaking world will never learn all the other languages there are.

So just ignore it.

We already freak out if forced to try to pronounce simple city names like Brno.

The English will never learn that it's properly pronounced "Brünn"
Brünn, Brünn, Brünn
Think I'll spend tomorrow somewhere in CZ, shopping.
Whatever has happened in the past, the names remain and both sides accept it. Isn't that what a united Europe is all about.
Tons of Knödel, roast and gravy for me tomorrow! Yummy

The English will never learn that it's properly pronounced "Brünn">>

Brünn, Brünn, Brünn - see logos? - perfect "pronunciation".

seriously logos - do you mean that the "o" in Brno is silent?

or were you concentrating on the first syllable?

Here the name is Brünn for about the last 800 years. Then things changed but today Europe is free and united. Don't you think it's good ann? So many people have died on all sides.
Brünn is still Brünn

aha, logos, I thought you were making a point about pronunciation - the erstwhile subject of this thread.

it seems that you have moved into politics, albeit with a small p.

OK - from now on, I will refer to Brünn. no-one, but no-one [except you] will know where I'm referring to, but if all those people can rest more easily, I'll be happy.

logos, I'm not really being flippant about something that has obviously mattered to a lot of people, including you, but why, pray, do all the maps, guide books etc. talk about Brno? where does the O come from, and what happened to the ü?

The "ü" people were forced to leave or were killed when the "o" people took over. Sorry that you don't know the story, it is interesting and called history. The "ü" people and the "o" people are living in peace and friendship now. The "ü" and the "o" were living together for quite some time (about 1500 years). Then "ü" killed "o" and later "o" killed "ü"

The "o" people and "ü" people are frieds now and YOU are the foreigner. Isn't that nice? So with the "ü" people, the name Brünn is perfectly correct.

And thank you, all you "o" people. I'll be visiting

Sorry that you don't know the story, it is interesting and called history.>>

logos, i detect a little bit of anger in you that I was unaware of the sad story of the "ü" people and the "o" people. i am sure that there are English disputes that are unknown in your region - could you tell me about the battles of the civil wars? the wars of the Roses? the enclosures of the C18?

i am not saying that the sufferings of these peoples do not matter, just that we can't all be expected to know the history of all the places we visit. after all, to find out these things is one reason some of us travel.

will i be thrown out of [forgive me ] "Brno" if I pronounce it "Brünn"?

Nope, I do think the "o"'s like tourists like you. .
And the "o" food is so great too.

logos, that's reassuring.

<<i am not saying that the sufferings of these peoples do not matter, just that we can't all be expected to know the history of all the places we visit. after all, to find out these things is one reason some of us travel.>>

As the former British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, said at the time:

“How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!”

well, he got something right.

<<well, he got something right.>>

I doubt that you would find many to agree with you. This was not Britain's "finest hour".

not saying it was. lavenerdrye.

but the sentiment he expressed was well-put - it was indeed horrible, fantastic and incredible etc.

the same could apply to a number of more recent conflicts.

I don't think it was well put at all. Czechoslovakia was not a faraway country, and he knew very well who the people and what the issues were. He was simply evoking the horror of the First World War to cover the fact that Britain was acquiescing in the dismemberment of a country which it had helped to establish only a few years before at the Paris Peace Conference.

the Sudetenland belongs to Germany as does Breslau in Poland.

<the Sudetenland belongs to Germany as does Breslau in Poland.>>

This is not the first time that these sentiments have been expressed:

"And now before us stands the last problem that must be solved and will be solved. It is the last territorial claim which I have to make in Europe, but it is the claim from which I will not recede and which, God willing, I will make good. With regard to the problem of the Sudeten Germans, my patience is now at an end." 26 September 1938

"I see no way by which I can induce the government of Poland to adopt a peaceful solution. But I should despair of any honourable future for my own people if we were not, in one way or another, to solve this question." 23 August 1939

"This not knowing a lot about history" by both of you hurts. I always believed the 20th century basics would be known universally. Anyway.

If I'm one of those supposedly not knowing the basics of 20th C history, I will confess that in my haste I somehow confused Breslau (now Wroclaw) with Cracow (Kraków). I'm not quite sure how I could have confused these two cities.

I'm quite aware that in 1939, Breslau and the rest of Silesia were an integral part of Germany and had been so (if one includes the former state of Prussia) for hundreds of years.

I'm also aware that most of Silesia and parts of Pomerania were made part of Poland under the terms of the Potsdam Agreement, and that this was finally ratified by all affected parties in 1990. So Breslau no longer "belongs to Germany" and I expect that most Germans accept this.

(I know that this was not always the case. Until my first visit to Germany in 1963, I had thought of Germany as divided in two. However, I learned differently when I saw the many posters and signboards with a map of Germany divided in three and the slogan "3 geteilt--Niemals!")

What I meant to convey by the two quotations is that the kind of revanchism they portrayed and that Palenque's statement implies has no place today. As logos999 earlier wrote,

"Then things changed but today Europe is free and united."

And that's the way it should be.

Good!

I am surprised how aggressive and political this thread had become. I am also surprised by the arrogance of some of the posters who stubbornly refuse to use the spelling of place names in their native languages.

Here is a current example what happens when you ignore the native spelling:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/munster-in-february.cfm

Does the poster want to travel to Münster (=Muenster) or Munster? These are different towns.

Fortunately, we can resolve this problem here on this forum.

I remember a trip report written by some guys who wanted to travel to Rothenburg ob der Tauber and landed in Rotenburg/Wümme which is 500 miles away.

Have heard about people ending up in Frankfurt an der Oder rather than Frankfurt am Main and wondered where the heck their hotel was and why did this town not look like the pictures they had always seen of Frankfurt.

I tend to use the German spellings so that if people want to look stuff up online, they have the right spellings. I do not use the umlauts because many peoples computers do not read it properly and then they sit there and wonder what the heck letter is that? So, I just use "oe", "ae" and "ue" instead.

Because I do live here and tend to speak German quite a bit, I would hate to think people feel I am being pretensious by throwing a few words in now and then simply because I forgot that not everyone knows that Hauptbahnhof means main train station or U-bahn is the subway. These are honest mistakes. I pretty much always say Cologne rather than Koeln and Munich rather than Muenchen though, but still, once in a while I forget.

Some technocrat will probably eliminate the variations of names of cities around the world one of these days and just replace everything with the GPS coordinates.

Meanwhile, there are dozens of cities around the world that have exactly the same name (Paris, London...) and most people seem to manage without too much confusion. In France there are at least 50 towns called Villeneuve. Not really a problem.

"it is a tad precious to refer incessantly to "Firenze", "Venezia" and "Genova". "

I've mentioned this before, but when giving directions on a forum like this, I do tend to use "Firenze", "Venezia" and "Genova", even if it to say "You need to the turn off to Genova" or "The main station in Florence is listed as Firenze SMN."

Originally I would have agreed with you about pretentious, but then I met a couple at Pisa airport station trying and failing to find "Florence" on the railway timetable - but did comment that "lots of trains seem to be going somewhere called fur enz"

I do find it amazing that somebody visiting a major city does not know that it has a "Local" name.

I wonder, do Germans posting on German-language forums get hectored for referring to "Mailand" instead of Milano? Do French posters on French-language forums get lectured because they write "Vienne" instead of Wien?

I'm smiling as I read these last comments because as I was drifting off to sleep my husband said, "Do you know Heidelberg's real name is Heidelberg Baden-Wuerttemberg?"

People can't know everything, and I bet Fodor's for one is very, very glad for that!

Also, noticed that my DK Eyewitness Travel Guide on Germany does not use either the umlaut or the "historically valid" ue when referring to Baden-Wuerttemberg in that section. Wonder what their Editor would have to say about this thread...