Cancelling apartment in PARIS

Old Jun 27th, 2016, 01:30 PM
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Cancelling apartment in PARIS

A lot of fodorites find people like me annoying and i was told to exxagerate the 'risks' involved with booking an illegal apartment in Paris.

Well, there is a thread currently going on on another forum called Trying_not_to_panic_Apartment_cancelled-Paris

Where the tourist explains he got a cancellation from VRBO due to ' a change in licensing of short term rentals in the building, etc ... '
Nothing dramatic, but the OP is left strnaded and looking for accomodation. 2 weeks from his/her holiday. This happens...
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 01:39 PM
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Thanks, Whathello, people who want to stay in apartments even though they know they are illegal rentals seem to think nothing bad could happen to them. Useful to have a real-time example of what can happen.
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 01:53 PM
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Agree, good to have an example. Can you post a link to the thread?
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 02:24 PM
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https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...de_France.html
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 02:44 PM
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Interesting, the OP is just looking for another apartment, whether or not it's legal.
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 11:15 PM
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That's because the OP is looking for "exposed ceiling beams and French windows" - also a list of amenities like an elevator if on a high floor, separate bedroom, and an unreasonable price.

The typical Parisian fantasy takes precedence over whether or not the OP might get stung again.

No clue why someone posted something to the effect that "the chances are very good that another listing will not be cancelled in this time frame" - does this person have a direct line to the Mayor's office?

Another poster mentioned that the same thing just happened to him at the same address.

Since the hotel lobby has instigated their lawsuit, things have gotten much more serious. You can expect to hear a lot more stories like this.
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 11:33 PM
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I put an answer on the site suggesting that as most apartments are illegal they shouldn't take the risk and book a hotel apartment or hotel.
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Old Jun 27th, 2016, 11:50 PM
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Someone also mentioned that there are "legal" apartments listed on the official Paris Tourist Office website.

This is not true.

The Paris Tourist Office site accepts all paid advertising, but there is a disclaimer stating that it does not accept responsibility for the goods and services offered by companies or individuals who pay to advertise on this site. To do so would make the City liable for lawsuits.

It's like any other listing site - or the Yellow Pages.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 12:05 AM
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I just contacted an agency in Paris that I have used several times in the past asking their take on the illegal apartment issue and received the response below...


"There are a lot of issues in Paris (and many other cities around the world) regarding short term lets. We belongs to the SPLM (Paris Furnished Rentals Association) and we work directly with the Mairie to find a solution that works for them and us. All of our companies pay the tourist tax to the city on behalf of our owners and we have not had any issues with the Mairie. Our owners also declare their rental income and pay taxes on it to the government - the above may not be the case with companies that do not belong to the SPLM.

Owners are currently allowed to rent out their apartment for four months of the year without any issues and we are working on trying to get a longer rental period available for the owners. It's a lot of politics but the SPLM members do their best to comply with any request the Mairie makes to us.

It's not simply a question of legal and not legal as it all politics at the moment by the housing minister of France so things are far from black and white.

We have not had to move any of our guests due to issues with the Mairie"

So that is from one agency, my argument is surely it would be so easy for the Mairie to go through the phone book, find the main agencies and just go and shut them down IF it was so black and white, which it obviously isn't. Also I have a friend who owns an apartment as a "foreign investor " in Paris, her agency has said nothing to her and she doesn't seem fazed by anything at this stage. However reading the above response says they try to comply with the Mairie but do they always... These agencies have staked their livelihood on renting out these apartments are they going to leave themselves so wide open..surely not.

I think it is more the Airbnb and VRBO apartments that are in jeopardy of being cancelled at the last minute. But that is just my take, if they shut all these apartments down Paris hotels would not be able to cope with the influx. Personally I don't like hotels and find the Citadines that others have recommended as being 'legal' soulless and totally lacking in any character or charm which is very important to me when staying for several nights if not weeks in a place.

So that's my tuppence worth on the apartment debate. Sounds like there is a long way to go. Paris isnt going to shoot itself in the foot is it? (Like UK just did!). Schnauzer
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 12:19 AM
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Proof by anecdote is not exactly convincing. I'm sure that the case listed by OP is true, and no doubt other, similar cases are true.

It's also true that people -- many people -- continue to have excellent experiences renting apartments in Paris. (I rented a terrific one, a stone's throw from the rue Mouffetard, in April.) And it would hardly be difficult to find anecdotes of people having miserable experiences at hotels.

No doubt, the small NIMBY chorus here will continue to their scare tactics. Wise travelers, though, would do well to consider information from many sources, and not those who have a clear agenda, and then make decisions that make make the most sense for their own situations.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 02:35 AM
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Just a note that there are several agencies which belong to the SPLM and FNAIM lobbying groups. The owners and agencies "are working with the Mayor's Office", but this doesn't mean that their apartments are necessarily all legal - no matter what these agencies tell you.

If a group of investors buys an entire building, and if the property owners do not live in the apartments 8 months out of the year, the apartments are illegal - unless the group has also constructed an equal residential space somewhere in Paris and/or qualified as a commercial enterprise, as in acquiring hotel status.

However, since the group of investors also comprise the "conseil syndical" (board of directors of the building), they will not complain to the Mayor's office about noise or inconvenience. It is likely that nobody will bother them for awhile.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 02:41 AM
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It's not simply a question of legal and not legal as it all politics at the moment by the housing minister of France so things are far from black and white.

The only issue that is not black and white is the enforcement aspect. The laws themselves are quite clear and precise.


Our owners also declare their rental income and pay taxes on it to the government

What mechanism can a realtor put into place that will guarantee owners pay income taxes on the revenues they receive from their black market apartment rentals? This might be possible if the owner is French, but many of the illegal apartments are foreign owned. This statement by a realtor, with a financial interest in illegal apartment rentals, is only made to deflect attention from the real issue, that of the black market apartment rentals themselves.

The question of the taxe de séjour has been resolved by many of the players in the vacation apartment business. This is effectively the only issue that has been somewhat resolved by the industry but it is, in and of itself, only a small portion of the controversy surrounding black market apartments in France. The core issue is, and continues to be, are the apartments offered by this agency legal for short term rental usage as defined by the French law ALUR?


Owners are currently allowed to rent out their apartment for four months of the year without any issues

This statement is partially correct. However, the laws is quite specific and states that only primary and full time residents may offer their apartments for an annual period not to exceed 120 days. Any apartment that is not occupied by its owner, which includes vacation apartments owned by foreign investors, is excluded from this provision.


it would be so easy for the Marie to go through the phone book, find the main agencies and just go and shut them down IF it was so black and white, which it obviously isn't.

That is exactly what the mayor's task force is doing. These 25 people are attempting to police almost 75,000 listings in Paris alone. They must also build legal cases against violators but this is a huge task. Do not expect overwhelming quick results. This will take time.

Simultaneous to these duties, the city also follows through with the task of approving the applications submitted to have apartments granted legal short term rental status. They have published this list here:

http://tinyurl.com/legal-apartments


It's also true that people -- many people -- continue to have excellent experiences renting apartments in Paris.

Those who do not have excellent experiences are the Parisan families who have been forced out of their apartments as rental properties are purchased by investors and converted into vacation apartments for foreigners.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 03:02 AM
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Those who do not have excellent experiences are the Parisan families who have been forced out of their apartments as rental properties are purchased by investors and converted into vacation apartments for foreigners.

Le malheur des uns fait le bonheur des autres. This is not exactly a new concept. Nor is the concept of scarce resources being available to those who have greater wealth. Now you can make an argument that the latter concept is unjust; such an argument forms the basis of some sociopolitical proposals. But that is a very slippery slope: if scarce resources are not allocated by wealth, then an awful lot of people might believe they have the right to have a nice apartment on the Place des Vosges.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 08:37 AM
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Sarasto, thanks for the link to the legal apartments. Odd that so many here say there is not such a list. I'm also glad to see that the apartment we vacated on June 7th is on the list as legal as the rental company said it was!
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 10:30 AM
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'No doubt, the small NIMBY chorus here will continue to their scare tactics. Wise travelers, though, would do well to consider information from many sources, and not those who have a clear agenda, and then make decisions that make make the most sense for their own situations.'

DonTopaz, can you clarify for me :
- what scare tactics am I using ?
- what is my Nimby interest ?
- what is my clear agenda ?
- why is saying that you should comply to the law and if you don't you are at risk is something that seems to shock you ?

If a lot of people drive on red, not all of them get a ticket. Actually a small percentage do. Do you then drive on red because only a small percentage do get a fine ? Because time is scarce and if I have the money to pay the fine, why should I bother stopping at a red light ? Or you don't drive on red because you comply to the law ?

Thanks.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 10:47 AM
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With the 10's of thousands of short term rentals in Paris, that are rented over and over during the year, there is practically NO possibility of a tourist being denied a rental because of a cancellation.

Just answering your hypothesis Whathello.

Nothing more, nothing less!!

I wonder what the percentage is 1 in 500,000--Yes, I guess it does happen.

Probably the same in hotels.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 11:37 AM
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actually, if anyone has NIMBY interest it is those who don't care about the effect that illegal vacation apt rentals have on the local economy as long as they don't live there and can continue to rent one, even if illegal, because they just want to, that's all. If it were their own building or affecting their own city so that rents were rising and vacancies getting scarcer, they probably would care.

That was Airbnb's argument in that recent article, that the govt didn't realize that travelers just wanted to rent these apts (so they should be able to, I guess, very strange logic that just because people want to do something, it should be okay).

Let's face it, most people just don't care about broader societal issues or the impact on local residents, only about themself, and that's what you see on this thread.

Of course this doesn't happen to everyone (apt. getting cancelled) but it can happen, I think that is all whathello is saying. I didn't think whathello even exaggerated anything, just was posting on the issue because of interest in it. And there are some that are legal, I think that is supposed to be the message -- rent legally.

I find it odd that one of the legal apts listed (which is in an area that I like, so I was sort of interested) is a woman who clearly states she only lives there 6 months of the year (the one in Montparnasse). That's not as bad as those who never live there and buy local apts solely to rent to vacationers.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 12:22 PM
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Sorry, that's not what the OP said, just your wild imagination.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 12:40 PM
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It's not wild imagination at all. And it's not exaggeration. It's exactly what the OP said. He's not French, he doesn't own an apartment in Paris, and his view of the situation is rational and impartial.
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Old Jun 28th, 2016, 12:53 PM
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iris: I know you are a big fan of airbnb . . . and that is fine. But you have to understand there are definite issues/problems with their policies in Paris and some other places (NYC, Santa Monica, etc.). Supporting airbnb is one thing, supporting airbnb no matter what/where seems . . . I'll just leave it at that.
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