Calling for help from wine buffs : what to drink in Tuscany ?
Jul 19th, 2013, 06:14 AM
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Calling for help from wine buffs : what to drink in Tuscany ?
We are staying for a week in Southern Tuscany in early September and we are real foodies so the holiday will have a big focus on food and eating out.
Whilst we have absorbed lots of knowledge about Italian food over the years we are not at all expert on the wine front and I would really welcome some advice from more informed fodorites as to what the best local wines would be.
So all you wine experts please help and tell me what bottles you would look out for and buy from the supermarkets and in restaurants if you were in that part of the world ? [in lowish/mid range type of price bracket but maybe with one or two more expensive treats]
Whilst we have absorbed lots of knowledge about Italian food over the years we are not at all expert on the wine front and I would really welcome some advice from more informed fodorites as to what the best local wines would be.
So all you wine experts please help and tell me what bottles you would look out for and buy from the supermarkets and in restaurants if you were in that part of the world ? [in lowish/mid range type of price bracket but maybe with one or two more expensive treats]
Jul 19th, 2013, 06:22 AM
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If you are as far south as Maremma, then super-Tuscans are the local choice. Further north, just south of Siena, is Montefalco, the home of Brunello. Both wines are excellent but very expensive. I'd expect to pay upwards of 50E for an average bottle, much more for a reserva.
Jul 19th, 2013, 06:34 AM
#3
loncall - I like my wine too, [and my food, as anyone who meets me can see] but I find on these sorts of trips that the "vino della casa" is often the best bet, or ask the waiter to recommend something to go with what you are eating.
italians are fiercely proud of their regional food and wine and usually what is from the "località" is going to suit what you are eating better than something more expensive from somewhere else, even if you can get it.
italians are fiercely proud of their regional food and wine and usually what is from the "località" is going to suit what you are eating better than something more expensive from somewhere else, even if you can get it.
Jul 19th, 2013, 07:14 AM
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and with a little voice, I'll add...I am not big on red wine from anywhere...but I do like the whites that come from the Veneto and Orvieto...if you are in a white wiine mood.
Does Tuscany have a white...dry crisp?
Does Tuscany have a white...dry crisp?
Jul 19th, 2013, 07:25 AM
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DRJ has mistaken Montefalco (in Umbria and known for sagrantino) for Montalcino which is famous for brunello. Southern Tuscany is sangiovese country and its highest form is brunello--aged and expensive. Less aging and less expensive are the rossos which are made from the same grape. There are many, many producers of both brunellos and rossos--too many to start recommending a particular one considering vintage and availability.
I like the idea of taking your waiters suggestion for a bottle and house wines, from our experience, are usually very good and affordable--what good restaurant in Tuscany would risk serving a poor wine? For tasting and making your own decision on what pleases you--try the Cantina in Greve (dozens of offerings from automatic dispensers) or the Fortezza in Montalcino for classic offerings of a vast array of brunellos and others. Osticcio in the center of Montalcino also offers tastings.
You can visit the actual wineries as well but it takes a lot of time and effort--well worth it and we have developed relationships in doing so but that has taken a dozen trips and 50+ winery visits. Have fun just beginning your exploration--you can't do it all in one visit.
Paul
I like the idea of taking your waiters suggestion for a bottle and house wines, from our experience, are usually very good and affordable--what good restaurant in Tuscany would risk serving a poor wine? For tasting and making your own decision on what pleases you--try the Cantina in Greve (dozens of offerings from automatic dispensers) or the Fortezza in Montalcino for classic offerings of a vast array of brunellos and others. Osticcio in the center of Montalcino also offers tastings.
You can visit the actual wineries as well but it takes a lot of time and effort--well worth it and we have developed relationships in doing so but that has taken a dozen trips and 50+ winery visits. Have fun just beginning your exploration--you can't do it all in one visit.
Paul
Jul 19th, 2013, 07:41 AM
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Not only has DRJ mistaken Montefalco (in Umbria, which produces Sagrantino) for Montalcino (which produces Brunello), he is has also misplaced the area of Tuscany famed for SuperTuscans, which is near Livorno, (Bolgheri).
If you are staying in southern Tuscany, Greve in Chianti may not be convenient to your dinner plans.
Italian wine is developed to be at its best when accompanied by food (in particular the food native to the same territory the wine comes from). If you are out driving about during the day, you will not want to consume wine. If you want to consume wine, you want to arrange your dinners so that it is possible for you to drink and not be driving afterwards.
I heartily disagree that most vino della casa is good and most people headed to Tuscany who care about wine don't drink it. There are PLENTY of Tuscan restaurants in the tourist areas of Tuscany who serve their worst wines to the unwary. They can't get rid of it any other way.
It is good to ask your waiter, and indicate what price range you want to go for, but what would be even more helpful, I think, is for you to go into your best local wine store before you leave for this trip and engage in a conversation with the wine buyer about the area where you will be staying. You might even purchase a few bottles of Tuscan wine and see what you like. Ask the wine store owner what to eat for dinner with them. Talk about the best wines and what they cost, and what type of meal you should be ordering if you are also ordering an expensive meal.
Supermarkets sell cheap wines, and most of them are not good, but if you have had the conversation I suggest before you get there you will be in a better position to choose something of quality.
Yes, there is Tuscan white wine, from San Gimignano (Vernaccia) but if you prefer white wine, then buy Orvieto or Est! Est! Est!, which are from nearby regions and are better wines.
If you also don't mind my suggesting this: You say you have absorbed a lot of knowledge about Italian food over the years, but you might want to browse online for recipes from Siena or recipes from Southern Tuscany to see if you recognize the dishes. A lot of people who have eaten a lot of Italian food of the US have never eaten toasted bread with spleen, pasta with wild boar, bread and tomato soup, or chestnut dishes, sheep cheeses and many other things that are commonplace in the region and match the local wines. Don't just drink the local wine. Eat the local food.
If you are staying in southern Tuscany, Greve in Chianti may not be convenient to your dinner plans.
Italian wine is developed to be at its best when accompanied by food (in particular the food native to the same territory the wine comes from). If you are out driving about during the day, you will not want to consume wine. If you want to consume wine, you want to arrange your dinners so that it is possible for you to drink and not be driving afterwards.
I heartily disagree that most vino della casa is good and most people headed to Tuscany who care about wine don't drink it. There are PLENTY of Tuscan restaurants in the tourist areas of Tuscany who serve their worst wines to the unwary. They can't get rid of it any other way.
It is good to ask your waiter, and indicate what price range you want to go for, but what would be even more helpful, I think, is for you to go into your best local wine store before you leave for this trip and engage in a conversation with the wine buyer about the area where you will be staying. You might even purchase a few bottles of Tuscan wine and see what you like. Ask the wine store owner what to eat for dinner with them. Talk about the best wines and what they cost, and what type of meal you should be ordering if you are also ordering an expensive meal.
Supermarkets sell cheap wines, and most of them are not good, but if you have had the conversation I suggest before you get there you will be in a better position to choose something of quality.
Yes, there is Tuscan white wine, from San Gimignano (Vernaccia) but if you prefer white wine, then buy Orvieto or Est! Est! Est!, which are from nearby regions and are better wines.
If you also don't mind my suggesting this: You say you have absorbed a lot of knowledge about Italian food over the years, but you might want to browse online for recipes from Siena or recipes from Southern Tuscany to see if you recognize the dishes. A lot of people who have eaten a lot of Italian food of the US have never eaten toasted bread with spleen, pasta with wild boar, bread and tomato soup, or chestnut dishes, sheep cheeses and many other things that are commonplace in the region and match the local wines. Don't just drink the local wine. Eat the local food.
Jul 19th, 2013, 08:01 AM
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Wow thanks everyone for such immediate responses, all of which are helpful and I am already making notes of some of suggestions so others do please keep possibilities coming in. I would also be interested if anyone can point me towards any good online articles on the subject.
Stevewith, I like the idea of tapping the knowledge of local wine expert before we go and having a few sample bottles in advance. This is my idea of truly great holiday planning !
We will definitely eat the local food, my mouth is watering as I read your list ! Happily we have visited Italy many times and enjoyed many such local dishes [we live in UK so happily Italy is only a quick cheap flight away] but we have never been to this area before so we do need to get up to speed on some of these Tuscan delicacies.
Stevewith, I like the idea of tapping the knowledge of local wine expert before we go and having a few sample bottles in advance. This is my idea of truly great holiday planning !
We will definitely eat the local food, my mouth is watering as I read your list ! Happily we have visited Italy many times and enjoyed many such local dishes [we live in UK so happily Italy is only a quick cheap flight away] but we have never been to this area before so we do need to get up to speed on some of these Tuscan delicacies.
Jul 19th, 2013, 08:15 AM
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Perhaps keep a look out for our favourite, one of the less-well known denominations from that area, "Morellino di Scansano" - a particular nice 'take' on sangiovese, which pleases the rather different tastes of both myself and my wife...
http://www.philly.com/philly/food/Pl...Morellino.html
Peter
http://www.philly.com/philly/food/Pl...Morellino.html
Peter
Jul 19th, 2013, 08:22 AM
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Go to the Wine Spectator website; they have a "Learn Wine" tab. I didn't look at it further, but my wine buff DH has gotten the magazine for years, so I figure they know their stuff. As mentioned, you'll want to focus on the Brunellos near and in Montalcino, and the Vino Nobile in and near Montepulciano. I am by no means knowledgeable, but I thought SuperTuscans were produced throughout Tuscany. I would also agree that, in our experience at least, drinking the house wine will not provide the best wine experience - but getting a little knowledge ahead of time, and asking your waiter, will provide a learning experience and good wine!
DH is willing to pay a lot for wine, but I notice that in areas like Tuscany, he's able to find great wines at moderate (to me) prices.
You may already know this, but Fred Plotkin's "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler" has excellent overviews of the cuisines of the various regions of Tuscany. I find some of his restaurant recommendations to be not as helpful, but others will disagree. I don't recall if he also includes information about wine.
DH is willing to pay a lot for wine, but I notice that in areas like Tuscany, he's able to find great wines at moderate (to me) prices.
You may already know this, but Fred Plotkin's "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler" has excellent overviews of the cuisines of the various regions of Tuscany. I find some of his restaurant recommendations to be not as helpful, but others will disagree. I don't recall if he also includes information about wine.
Jul 19th, 2013, 08:52 AM
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I agree with asking your server for a recommendation and letting him/her know you want a wine that will pair well with the food. I learned from a sommelier friend in Rome, "If it grows together, it goes together". So as mentioned up-thread, take advantage of regionally produced wines with the foods of that area.
One thing that helps me when speaking with a server, and I am by no means fluent in Italian, is, I use the Google Translate app on my smartphone. Prior to a trip I "plug-in" phrases I think I might need and then can access them without wi-fi or cellular service in a restaurant. My first phrase is always, "Would you help me select a wine that will go well with my meal selection". This usually brings a smile to the server's face and they get a kick that I took the time to try and communicate in their language.
One thing that helps me when speaking with a server, and I am by no means fluent in Italian, is, I use the Google Translate app on my smartphone. Prior to a trip I "plug-in" phrases I think I might need and then can access them without wi-fi or cellular service in a restaurant. My first phrase is always, "Would you help me select a wine that will go well with my meal selection". This usually brings a smile to the server's face and they get a kick that I took the time to try and communicate in their language.
Jul 19th, 2013, 09:01 AM
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loncall,
Indeed, the best way to plan for a trip to a great wine region is try out some of the wines ahead of time! What you will find in the US at a moderate price or low price will generally be a wine produced in large quantities for export, and something of a "name" brand, which will aim for consistency. The fun of actually drinking the wine in Tuscany will be that various wine producers who are only producing locally will produce wine with "character" or "individuality" or "personality" -- those wine terms you read that sound so absurd until you taste a unique local wine that matches your meal, and the wine practically speaks to you in a conversational way.
If you poke around the Snooth website, you can begin to glean a lot of good information about Tuscan wine from wine enthusiasts, and they have a message board where people are happy to talk about wine
http://eat.snooth.com/articles/sangi...ngs/?viewall=1
But people need to know precisely where in southern Tuscany you are staying to give you the best advice. There might be a special winery 100 feet from you. Also, when you get to Tuscany, ask as many locals as you can which local wines are the most respected, who are the most respected local producers. Even if a few of them try to get you to drink their friends' wines first, eventually you'll hear a few of the same names over and over -- or maybe just one name over and over.
It is true that SuperTuscans are associate with Maremma, near the coast, but histrically in the northern part of it, close to Livorno and Pisa, not in the southern parts of it. It is also true that a great many Tuscan wines are produced all over Tuscany, where you might not expect to find them, microclimates being what they are.
But I stick to my story that to go chasing after name wines independent of what you are eating is not really where it is at in Italy. It's a marriage of food and wine, and the greatest wine can turn sour or flat in your mouth if you eat it with the wrong flavors, and a wine that tastes like underripe grape juice or too-thick jam can be a revelation when the food arrives, like magic. So be sure to tell your servers in Italy you would love to have a great experience of the local wine AND food. Usually, they are very happy you are so interested, and will be proud to give you a great memory of being their guest and sharing their traditions.
Indeed, the best way to plan for a trip to a great wine region is try out some of the wines ahead of time! What you will find in the US at a moderate price or low price will generally be a wine produced in large quantities for export, and something of a "name" brand, which will aim for consistency. The fun of actually drinking the wine in Tuscany will be that various wine producers who are only producing locally will produce wine with "character" or "individuality" or "personality" -- those wine terms you read that sound so absurd until you taste a unique local wine that matches your meal, and the wine practically speaks to you in a conversational way.
If you poke around the Snooth website, you can begin to glean a lot of good information about Tuscan wine from wine enthusiasts, and they have a message board where people are happy to talk about wine
http://eat.snooth.com/articles/sangi...ngs/?viewall=1
But people need to know precisely where in southern Tuscany you are staying to give you the best advice. There might be a special winery 100 feet from you. Also, when you get to Tuscany, ask as many locals as you can which local wines are the most respected, who are the most respected local producers. Even if a few of them try to get you to drink their friends' wines first, eventually you'll hear a few of the same names over and over -- or maybe just one name over and over.
It is true that SuperTuscans are associate with Maremma, near the coast, but histrically in the northern part of it, close to Livorno and Pisa, not in the southern parts of it. It is also true that a great many Tuscan wines are produced all over Tuscany, where you might not expect to find them, microclimates being what they are.
But I stick to my story that to go chasing after name wines independent of what you are eating is not really where it is at in Italy. It's a marriage of food and wine, and the greatest wine can turn sour or flat in your mouth if you eat it with the wrong flavors, and a wine that tastes like underripe grape juice or too-thick jam can be a revelation when the food arrives, like magic. So be sure to tell your servers in Italy you would love to have a great experience of the local wine AND food. Usually, they are very happy you are so interested, and will be proud to give you a great memory of being their guest and sharing their traditions.
Jul 19th, 2013, 09:06 AM
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PS: If you do want to try a local famous wine that is expensive, like a SuperTuscan or high-end Brunello, or a reserve whatever for a special night or two, then pick the wine first and ask your server to help you order the best dishes so the wine shines.
Jul 19th, 2013, 09:08 AM
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Sorry -- I forgot you were from the UK, but I still think some of the most interesting Italian wines don't make the short hop the other way, so have fun educating your palate at home to get a sense of what you like, but be prepared for some noticeable differences once you are actually in southern Tuscany.
Jul 19th, 2013, 09:26 AM
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Great, great, great suggestions!
I am a Wine-Know, so I would only add that you speak with your favorite Sommeliers and get their opinions as well.
As a Wine-Know, my answer to your question is to drink anything in Tuscany that fits in a glass!!!!
Also, hopefully you have time to go to your local BevMo,Cost Plus, Cosco, etc. The wine buyers in those places KNOW their stuff!
For one who is not a Wine-Know, your best conversations will be had here. That said, some of the best tips and insights about wine from all over the world come from my pals in these roles.
You can also spend a few bucks, or more, and pop open some of these before you go. Why not?
Your trip will be enhanced by your own personal experiences, on your tongue (etc.),with the Tuscans, before you reach Italy.
Wineries like it and will go the extra mile if you present with even a small modicum of *knowledge*. You are going during harvest, so be mindful of that and make your appointments where needed.
I don't recommend fine wine shops at this point. Go to them after you get your Tuscan wine-legs. Be ready to spar (in good fun) because once you learn what you like, nothing will deter you.
The fine wine shop folks will also help you identify some possible places that they like and would visit if they were going to Tuscany. Weigh and consider what fits for you.
Cheers,
Oaktown Traveler
I am a Wine-Know, so I would only add that you speak with your favorite Sommeliers and get their opinions as well.
As a Wine-Know, my answer to your question is to drink anything in Tuscany that fits in a glass!!!!
Also, hopefully you have time to go to your local BevMo,Cost Plus, Cosco, etc. The wine buyers in those places KNOW their stuff!
For one who is not a Wine-Know, your best conversations will be had here. That said, some of the best tips and insights about wine from all over the world come from my pals in these roles.
You can also spend a few bucks, or more, and pop open some of these before you go. Why not?
Your trip will be enhanced by your own personal experiences, on your tongue (etc.),with the Tuscans, before you reach Italy.
Wineries like it and will go the extra mile if you present with even a small modicum of *knowledge*. You are going during harvest, so be mindful of that and make your appointments where needed.
I don't recommend fine wine shops at this point. Go to them after you get your Tuscan wine-legs. Be ready to spar (in good fun) because once you learn what you like, nothing will deter you.
The fine wine shop folks will also help you identify some possible places that they like and would visit if they were going to Tuscany. Weigh and consider what fits for you.
Cheers,
Oaktown Traveler
Jul 19th, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Unbelievably rich advice. Thank you all so much. I am now really looking forward to experimenting both before we go and when we get there.
We are staying in Cetona which is circa half and hour drive south of Montepulciano so any local suggestions to that would be interesting.
We are staying in Cetona which is circa half and hour drive south of Montepulciano so any local suggestions to that would be interesting.
Jul 19th, 2013, 11:44 AM
#19
hi again loncall,
not that far from Cetona is the lovely little city of Pitigliano. looked at from afar it's like a trifle - etruscan on the bottom, then Roman, then medieval, and finally renaissance. I can't recommend anywhere to eat there, sadly, but i'm sure you could find somewhere good.
the reason why we didn't eat there is because we were en route to Saturnia. There are hot baths [free] to swim in, and excellent restaurants to eat in afterwards. we had a wonderful meal in a restaurant in the village with lots of local specialities. Sadly I don't know the name because it was organised for us by our italian teacher, but i think it might be this one:
Trattoria Il Rifugio Di Marina Mirella Macellosi Sasmore info
Via Trieste, 9
58014 Manciano, Province of Grosseto, Italy
+39 0564 620029
[I've added the phone no as you would probably want to book if you're going to go].
a really great day out!
not that far from Cetona is the lovely little city of Pitigliano. looked at from afar it's like a trifle - etruscan on the bottom, then Roman, then medieval, and finally renaissance. I can't recommend anywhere to eat there, sadly, but i'm sure you could find somewhere good.
the reason why we didn't eat there is because we were en route to Saturnia. There are hot baths [free] to swim in, and excellent restaurants to eat in afterwards. we had a wonderful meal in a restaurant in the village with lots of local specialities. Sadly I don't know the name because it was organised for us by our italian teacher, but i think it might be this one:
Trattoria Il Rifugio Di Marina Mirella Macellosi Sasmore info
Via Trieste, 9
58014 Manciano, Province of Grosseto, Italy
+39 0564 620029
[I've added the phone no as you would probably want to book if you're going to go].
a really great day out!
Jul 19th, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Cetona is in a really lovely corner of Tuscany that doesn't get the maximum onslaught of tourists, and you are actually quite close to Umbria there, so if you find yourself feeling white would be more appealing than red, the Orvieto white wine -- called Orveito -- is a great choice and there are other locals -- some of them a bit fizzy -- that might taste just great.
In the nearby town of Chiusi there is a restaurant named which has amassed an important wine cellar where the wine is stored in an actual Etruscan passage that dates back several thousand years (and the passagehas been in continuous use since it was built). They are happy to take their guests down into the wine cellar to look. If you were thinking of splurging on an important wine, this might be the place to do it, but check with locals because I am almost certain that the place changed hands since I was there.
http://www.frommers.com/destinations/chiusi/D49174.html
Since you are close to Montepulciano, you will probably want to taste the local vino Nobile, which you can actually do right in the center off Montepulciano, off the piazza Grande, in Palazzo Contucci, if you aren't planning on visiting any wineries.
http://www.travelsignposts.com/Italy...no-vino-nobile
I also wanted to add that since you are traveling in early September, it will still be summer, and you may not want to eat, day in and day out, the kind of heavy meat dishes of beef, boar or duck that match best to some of the regions most famed red wines. I have read "trip reports" of people who bragged about eating plate after plate of bistecca and pork sausages, and drinking bottle after bottle of wine, only to find themselves nearly passing out in the midday heat after less than 3 days of that.
Some of the very nicest of the rich reds from that area are superb with the local cheese and salume, garden veg with olive oil (hold the vinegar!) and fresh summer fruits, so it can be a great strategy to enjoy a bottle with a light supper on a terrace or balcony if you have one, or in the local enoteca rather than a full blown restaurant. And don't feel you are violating a code if you end up drinking a lighter red or white wine from Chianti or Umbria or Lazio if the heat is really on
Here's a place I just found on google. Looks like a nice wine shop in the center of Cetona where you can also buy vegetables preserved in oil and other good things to eat in case you want a picnic without cooking
http://www.winetrecase.it/eng/benvenuti.html
In the nearby town of Chiusi there is a restaurant named which has amassed an important wine cellar where the wine is stored in an actual Etruscan passage that dates back several thousand years (and the passagehas been in continuous use since it was built). They are happy to take their guests down into the wine cellar to look. If you were thinking of splurging on an important wine, this might be the place to do it, but check with locals because I am almost certain that the place changed hands since I was there.
http://www.frommers.com/destinations/chiusi/D49174.html
Since you are close to Montepulciano, you will probably want to taste the local vino Nobile, which you can actually do right in the center off Montepulciano, off the piazza Grande, in Palazzo Contucci, if you aren't planning on visiting any wineries.
http://www.travelsignposts.com/Italy...no-vino-nobile
I also wanted to add that since you are traveling in early September, it will still be summer, and you may not want to eat, day in and day out, the kind of heavy meat dishes of beef, boar or duck that match best to some of the regions most famed red wines. I have read "trip reports" of people who bragged about eating plate after plate of bistecca and pork sausages, and drinking bottle after bottle of wine, only to find themselves nearly passing out in the midday heat after less than 3 days of that.
Some of the very nicest of the rich reds from that area are superb with the local cheese and salume, garden veg with olive oil (hold the vinegar!) and fresh summer fruits, so it can be a great strategy to enjoy a bottle with a light supper on a terrace or balcony if you have one, or in the local enoteca rather than a full blown restaurant. And don't feel you are violating a code if you end up drinking a lighter red or white wine from Chianti or Umbria or Lazio if the heat is really on
Here's a place I just found on google. Looks like a nice wine shop in the center of Cetona where you can also buy vegetables preserved in oil and other good things to eat in case you want a picnic without cooking
http://www.winetrecase.it/eng/benvenuti.html
