Britain by Train and BritRail Passes for the Clueless

Things planned to be covered:

The nature of the British rail system and why it is a tremendous way to get around

Good sources of information on British trains

Types of trains from quaint rural branch lines to mainline trains

Caledonian Sleeper trains to/from Scotland and London

Trains in the London area

Sample Itineraries

Using trains - difference between classes, on board facilities and even such things as to how to open those doors to get out! Seat reservations, seat availability without reservations, etc.

Scenic train routes such as the two fab Scottish Highland railways

Luggage concerns

Station facilities - baggage check rooms?

Fares - www.nationalrail.co.uk

and a lot on BritRail Passes, which i will highlight as a great way to do Britain by train - they are not for everyone however - comparing to local fares

Passes to be covered:

BritRail Pass
BR England Pass
BR Days Out of London Pass
BritIreland Pass
Scottish Passes

Youthpasses
Party Pass (50% off for third thru 9th travelers traveling together on one Party Pass)

Senior Passes

Pass holder fares on Eurostar trains to Paris/Brussels

Back soon, Dr Beeching

And forgot also

The Family Pass where kids under 16 get a free pass to match what their parents buy

and the Off-Peak BritRail Pass (Nov-Feb) where all adult passes are discounted about 20%

Flexipasses vs Consecutive Day Passes

and two current specials

right now thru the end of June, 2008 an extra day will be added to all BritRail Passes (incl youth and England) and don't have to be used until within six months of issue

And also throughout 2008 anyone buying a Eurail Youthpass of any kind gets 50% off any adult price on a BritRail Pass

And Airport trains

Back Soon - Dick Beeching

Terrific! Looking forward to benefitting from your train expertise.

Thanks LC

<BRITRAIL>

First to dispose of a common misunderstanding Americans have about the term <BritRail>

Though British Rail was the nationalized rail system of Britain for many during the Thatcher era and after it was decided to privatize the entire BritRail system and the word British Rail went to the scrap bin of history (with much controversy in Britain to say the least)

What took its place is the current 'franchise' system where an overall rail regulatory authority awards franchises to run various parts of the former British Rail network. Currently i think there are about 27 separate independent rail franchises.

Franchises are granted for several year period then are re-bid or taken away for poor performance, etc.

But all this music chairs of franchise ownership and 27 rail lines means little to the foreign tourist except for ticketing as each franchise sells their own tickets which often cannot be used on similar trains on the same route or the fare structure may be all different, etc.

But for anyone using a BritRail pass it all means nothing as the passes are valid on each and every train franchise just as it was on all of the former British Rail.

So today BritRail refers only to the passes that are good on all regular passenger trains in Britain.

So, do these "franchises" overlap their territories?

I was helping my daughter make some reservations online a couple of years ago and it was quite confusing. They seemed to overlap and it was difficult to determine the best route to take. Finally we just made a decision rather than obsessing about it and it worked out perfectly well.

yes franchises do overlap - some routes may have more than one franchise running trains on that route - like Cross Country trains would run often bizarre routings the length of the country and then in between share tracks and stations with other franchises and also serve the same two stations.

Thus when buying tickets you can only use them i think on the franchise you bought them on - not any old train, like you can do with the pass.

www.nationalrail.co.uk indicates the train franchise that operates each train.

And screwy also is that IME you have to go to the right station to buy a ticket - only to a station, say in London, serving that franchise. not like in the rest of Europe go to any station in a country and buy a ticket for any train in that country.

Of course most Brits these days would probably buy tickets online.

Topping to start working on again soon

"Thus when buying tickets you can only use them i think on the franchise you bought them on - not any old train, like you can do with the pass."...

is one really misleading - indeed under practically all circumstances, downright wrong - piece of advice you need to edit out in the rewrite.

To take a route frequently used by visitors to this site: any ticket, other than one that's for a specific train, from Oxford to London is valid for:
- the direct First Great Western, or
- Cross Country to Reading, then FGW to Paddington (useful if you've just missed a train and don't want to wait half an hour for the next fast one), or
- Cross Country or FGW to Reading, then South Western to Waterloo (useful if you really wqant to be in south London), or
- FGW to Slough, FGW to Hayes, Heathrow Connect to Paddington (an important routing as part of a typical Cotswolds - New York or Hong Kong- Central London - Cotswolds round trip: you just add a return Connect Hayes-Heathrow onto an ordinary Oxford-London return)

Saying ONLY is risky when it comes to train fares. But the only multi-operator routes I can think of where you will be denied boarding or penalised if you've not bought your ticket from the right operator are the premium airport services operated by Heathrow Express and Gatwick Express.

"And screwy also is that IME you have to go to the right station to buy a ticket - only to a station, say in London, serving that franchise. not like in the rest of Europe go to any station in a country and buy a ticket for any train in that country."

is also cobblers, BTW.

I regularly buy tickets to and from other stations, including from stations that aren't used by the operator concerned. No-one even turns a hair. The entire system is based on the assumption that operators at any station can sell practically any ticket, apart from a few online specials and the like.

Why did i have to go to Euston station recently to buy a ticket on the Caledonia Sleeper - Kings X refused to sell it to me and told me i had to go to Euston, from where the night trains to Scotland depart.

But i will take note and edit as to what you say and i thank you very much. The above was writ before you admonishing on a more recent thread.

'cos the night train is a special service?

I'm sure there are other exceptions. But the sleepers do rather seem to be a law unto themelves.

BritRail Off-Peak Special

Each winter, from Nov 1 thru Feb 28/29 BritRail offers a 20% discount off all BritRail Passes (including BritRail England) - saver passes, youth passes, etc. (Days Out of London passes not reduced i believe)

BritRail Passes, for what they offer - fully flexible travel on any train any time, are bargains even at full price but at 20% off they are even more so.

And for anyone who has a Youth Eurailpass they can buy any BritRail Pass at 50% off - and in off-peak would pay, i believe, would get a further 20% off the 50% off price!

BritRail Passes are not sold in U.K. stations and Brits cannot normally use them. In the U.S. i always highlight two great BritRail vendors - www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com because these sites give tons of objective useful info along with the usual pass prices and add to cart button. The latter reference has on their site the excellent European Planning & Rail Guide which has a good chapter on traveling Britain by train.

One mistake above - Youth BritRail Passes are not reduced 20% off-peak - only 'adult passes'

But still the Off-Peak sample prices as i calculate right now are:

8-day BritRail England pass (flexipass - any 8 unlimited calendar travel days on any train anytime in an overall 2-month period:

2nd class (p.p.) $383 for 8 days or $48 a day or about 30 pounds a day

1st class $572 for 8 flexi days or about $70 a day or about 39 pounds a day

1st class Senior Pass (60 and over) 8 day flexi = $488 or $61 a day or about 40 pounds a day - all these for fully flexible travel on any train any time.

even the highly restricted often hard to get fares on www.nationalrail.co.uk (represents all 28 or so privatized rail franchises and gives schedules and fares and can book on as well and retrieve in the U.K.) may stack up poorly to the fully flexible pass that can be used on any of the 28 or so British rail franchises.

And the BritRail PARTY PASS lets the 3rd thru 9th traveler whose name in on the same pass as the first two full pass paying adults pay 50% of what the first two adults do:

2nd class (p.p.) $192 for 8 days or $24 a day or about 15 pounds a day

1st class $286 for 8 flexi days or about $35 a day or about 23 pounds a day - $35 a day for unlimited fully flexible first class travel -AN ABSOLUTE BARGAIN

1st class Senior Pass (60 and over) 8 day flexi = $244 or $30 a day or about 20 pounds a day - all these for fully flexible travel on any train any time. $30 A DAY FOR UNLIMITED FULLY FLEXIBLE TRAINS ALL OVER ENGLAND - EVEN MORE AN INCREDIBLE BARGAIN!

And you have the FREE FAMILY PASS as well, where with each adult one kid under 16 gets a free pass to match their parents - add tho the PARTY PASS and you could have a max of 17 people all on the bargain Party Pass for ridiculously cheap travel in the unlikely event of such a group. (Kids under 5 always free.)

PalenQ

Thank you for starting AND updating this thread. I was confused by all the different rail systems in Britain.

I appreciate the time you've taken to straighten it out for me!

I haven't been on a British train for 30 years so I desperately needed a refresher.

In many ways the British Rail trains you took 30 years ago were better IMO than the hodgepodge system of 28 or so privatized rail franchises simply because trains are so so crowded now - especially on regional trains which can resemble third-world cattle cars. First class IMO is well worth the price - pass wise or ticket wise - 2nd class being so dirty and so stuffed full at times.

But trains are still a great way to get around Britain - the sheer number of trains going everywhere all the time means you will get around - even if trains are endemically late IME - show up at the station for the 10.15 am train and you may be able to hop the late running 9:15 train IME.

But i still love riding the rail in Britain - in first class - 2nd class is like a greyhound bus IMO

For goodness sake.
I have recently been making regular trips to London from the North West of England, using Virgin.
I travel 2nd class and have found it perfectly clean and so far the trains have been on time. Yes, I find that you need to book a seat, but the idea that travelling 2nd class is like something out of the Third World is just daft.
As for meeting the locals, I want to sit quietly and read my book or newspaper. I don't want daft Seppos bouncing up to engage me in conversation.

I too travelled by Virgin just before Christmas and like you travelled 2nd.
I don't know if it was just the time of year, but an attendant went through the train distributing goody bags to the children.
You certainly needed to book your seat in advance, but the train was clean and somebody came along at regular intervals to collect litter.
Our train arrived dead on time.
My only criticism would be the luggage space.
The overhead racks were a bit too small for large cases and the bit at the end wasn't really big enough for everyone's luggage.

Yup Virgin mainline trains are IME much better than others. The trains comprising the old Inter City network are decent - if way below comfort standards on the Continent.

Seats are tinier in Britain trains because the car widths are more narrow than on the Continent i believe - second class seats are much more cramped. And more times than i can remember seats have fallen off when i sat down in them - never ever happened anywhere else - you slide to the floor with the seat someone has detached.

It's the zillions of regional trains that resemble third-world cattle cars at times.

I commuted several days into London and even out of rush hour trains were packed it seemed and very filthy.

I cannot remember ever stepping into a pool of vomit before - it was under some newspaper someone threw over it.

First class is a whale of a difference - more different than any European rail system i have been on - not only because of the tiny seats (and often IME low-slung - folks physically challenged may have a hard time getting out of them once they plop down)

But first class is right up there with the very best in Europe - and like on Virgin you get complimentary food and drink the whole route - actually more food than you really want - always coming by to refill coffee or tea and with snacks.

And in zillions of first-class train trips i have never not found an empty seat - usually one with a window and an aisle.

Regional trains however are apt not to have any first class or if they do 2nd class people occupy them without impunity. And more than a few where packed about like trains i took in India - incredibly packed.

I have to tell ya, 2nd class in Britain sounds a whole lot better than the LIRR or Amtrak to NYC!

Does Virgin go to the North East? We're looking at York, Nottingham and Lincoln from London.

I too use the train system in Britain. In the "old" days 2nd class was ok. With privation it has gone down hill on certain lines. The main lines are still quite good. London to York or Edinburgh are good, however I have taken some lines that are really sub par. In my opinion Northern and First Great Western are the worse. Filthy coaches. A lot of the local train companies are very good. So, except for the main line trains, it is a bit of a crap shoot.

Does Virgin go to the North East? We're looking at York, Nottingham and Lincoln from London>

don't think so. but go to www.nationalrail.co.uk for all train schedules of all rail franchises and if you see VT that means Virgin Trains runs that service.

It was from Lincoln i took a regional train that was just like ones in India - so stuffed you could not turn around - bicycles blocking the exit, etc.

Again the mainline trains out of London are rather decent, if still not up to par with most of Europe.

Virgin does the North West. From London to York and Edinburgh take NXEC. To Lincoln, transfer at East Midlands train at Newwork north Gate.

There are some services where there are differential fares. e.g London to Birmingham on Virgin, which is fast, is more expensive than the London Midland service which stops more frequently along the route. You are unlikely to be able to board the Virgin train service if you do not have the correct ticket and would have to buy a new full price ticket on the train. Trains in the UK may not be perfect but they are perhaps not as exciting and exotic as they are portrayed. Unfortunately they are used by the local inhabitants who fill the seats and travel to work, conferences, visit family and have holidays. Worse still some take their bikes with them. But surely this quaintness is what makes travelling so interesting. You can segregate yourself into 1st class but it can be crowded when businessmen on expenses are travelling.

This thread is an absolute keeper for me. Wonder how I missed it up till now? Thanks a lot.

Helen, this thread Was about passes not individual tickets. Passes are good on all trains.

I took Virgin to Manchester last Feb and they made an announcement for passengers to be sure they were on the right train because it they had a ticket for another train then they would be charged the full second class fare (i think about $200 one way!) by the conductor - many of the cheaper individual fares are train specific and non changeable nor refundable - this is what helen mentioned above.

Go to nationalrail.co.uk and see how really expensive full fare on long distance trains can be and first class even more so. A few trips at full fare can make the railpass pay off. But if you say are going London to Scotland and back and that is all and you do not want to stop off at York or the Lake District between London and Scotland and back to London then you may be able to cop some incredibly cheap (and highly restricted) fare. (Though Caroline from Edinburgh has responded more than once that she can never get such a ticket for the trains or days she wants to travel - so you have to be flexible as to travel times perhaps.)
Again the pass provides for totally flexible travel on any train anytime. And though second class is more and more full as some describe above (due to the online discount advance tickets i think) you can always make seat reservations - often for free - if done by the day before the train i believe.

So like the scenario going to Scotland and back it's nice to stop off at York perhaps for a few hours - put your luggage in a luggage locker in the station - and hop back on the next convenient trains (they run about twice hourly) to continue on to Scotland.
And return from Scotland down the West Coast line - staying a few days at the Lake District en route, etc.
With the pass you just take any train but on the discounted online fares it probably will not be allowed to make such a stop en route as at York.
Passes take all the planning of making train specific reservations not needed.

RE Food Service

As said Virgin Trains in first class on many of its routes gives complimentary food and drink out - but most other rail franchises only give free 'tea or coffee' and perhaps a pastry or cookie complimentary to first class passengers - but still nice with lots of refills always it seems.

Food service in first class is at your seat. Second ('standard class in Britain') class has no complimentary food (though i note above one poster said they recently got some) but there is a 'buffet' you can go to and buy drinks and snacks on most long-distance services (but rarely on regional trains) - and a trolley cart may come thru the train.

The old joke about the buffet car announcement that it is open is the ubiquitous tag "and any small change will be appreciated".

Otherwise just like across Europe you are free to bring whatever food or drink aboard you want. So far there are only some sporadic regional trains that may ban booze though on trains to towns with major soccer matches may temporarily ban booze on those trains for the day to prevent soccer hooligans from running amok throughout the train i guess.

TYPES OF 'BRIT'RAIL PASSES

In addition to the classic all Britrailpass, which covers England, Scotland and Wales (but not Northern Ireland) there is the BritEngland Pass that of course just covers England - and a Scotish railpass that covers trains in Scotland as well as many ferries to islands.

The London Plus Pass (aka Days out of London - not sure which name they are using this year) is a railpass covering trains throught SE England, including to Bath and Stratford (new recently) as well as everything practically in about a 100 mile radius of London. This pass includes Heathrow, Stansted and Gatwick Express trains as a separate voucher that can be used outside the validity of the actual pass.

There is also the Brit-Ireland Pass covering all of the UK, including Northern Ireland, and all of the Republic of Ireland - but is so priced IMO that few will find it economical.

None of the above passes are sold in any train station in the UK to my knowledge and Britons cannot use them.

Again the passes are for completely flexible travel - just hop any train anytime.

BRIT RAIL YOUTHPASS & EURAILPASSES

Anyone under 26 who qualifies for using a BritRail (or BritEngland, etc.) and buys a Eurail Youthpass (or actually any railpass i believe for Continental use) can buy any BritRail type pass at 50% off - making youth travel a great bargain.

And to recap the above mentioned Party Pass and Off-Peak and Family Passes:

The Party Pass lets the 3rd thru 9th person whose name is on the same railpass as two adults will pay only 50% of what the first two adults pay.

The Off-Peak Pass gives an about 20% discount BritRail Passes between Nov 1 and Feb 28/29 each year. (Travel must be completed by the end of Feb).

The Family Pass allows one child up to 15 yrs of age travel free for each adult buying a pass. (kids under 5 always free).

TYPES OF BRITISH TRAINS; A MATTER OF CLASS?

The quality of British trains varies greatly IME between the fastest long-distance trains and the slower local services. Again BritRail Passes are good on all regular passenger trains - all, including airport express trains (but not on Eurostar trains from France or Belgium - the only exception i know of).

In the days of British Rail long ago there was an InterCity network that linked dozens of major cities with the faster trains. Today these InterCity trains are run by various rail franchises, some of which may compete with each other on services.

These trains, esp in first class, are fairly modern and can go up to 125 mph or so (once called InterCity 125 on some routes i believe - such as Virgin's Pendolino trains to the North).

But there is a vast difference IMO between first and standard (or second) class. First class, except for the shaky ride due to track conditions much less perfect than on the Continent, is as good or better than any first class i've been on it Europe and the service as well. First class seats are very roomy and in all my years of traveling on British trains i have yet to find not a few but often quite a few empty seats so reservations are not needed like they are in standard class to guarantee you will not be standing.

And like previously said in first class on InterCity type trains you inevitably get complimentary 'tea or coffee' and a snack (or in Virgin Trains, often a full-course meal IME) - served at your seat - the coffee cups will be set up at your table when you board.

On some trains there may be various grades of first class - such as Gold, etc., with Gold or its equivalent fancy sounding names being plusher than regular first class. At times discount online first-class fares must sit in the lesser first-class cars and may not get complimentary food, etc and all seats may be full.

But on most trains there is just one first class. In any case with a railpass you need not worry about what first class type carriage you can sit in as you can even sit in Gold class, if exists.

Having much more room for baggage is another perk for first class as there are fewer people in the train car (same size car as in 2nd class) and thus more space in overhead racks. But as i've said i've never not seen empty seats and i always it seems get, in first class, an isolated seat - one with aisle and window and the seat opposite me or across from me, etc. may be vacant as well so i usually have my luggage in an adjoining seat.

NEXT - STANDARD CLASS; REGIONAL TRAINS, COMMUTER TRAINS, AIRPORT TRAINS; OVERNIGHT TRAINS.

Let's interrupt Uncle Pal for a moment to point out one crucial thing he's missing out.

If you're based in London and want a couple of days out, pre-paid "All you can eat" passes rarely make much sense, for two important reasons:

- they're practically unavailable in the UK, so they're priced in dollars or euros and with the state of the pound that makes them REALLY expensive.

- there's a special discount card(the Network RailCard) you can buy from any railway station for £20 that gives you and your travelling companions 35% off all weekday offpeak fares and all weekend fares within 100 miles or so. For a few trips to Oxford, Brighton and Winchester, that's almost certainly cheaper than a prepaid pass: a typical return fare with the card is £15 or so to Oxford (though from London, the amazingly frequent buses are usually the cheapest - if slowish - way of getting to Oxford. This isn't really true of anywhere else, though).

- If you're 60 or over the Senior Railcard offers similar discounts (wherever you're from, but it still costs £20), but isn't limited to the 100 miles radius and has slightly fewer restrictions. But it gives the discount only to the cardholder - not his companions.

Now within 100 miles or so of London things are a bit different from Uncle Pal's description.

- there's hardly ever any advantage in advance booking. The walkup fare is the cheapest you can get.

- Fares go down sharply around 0915/0930. The rack price drops - but you've got the Network Card discount on top. On one trip I regularly do, the 0735 train is four times the price of the 0935.

- First class is PHENOMENALLY pricier than second, because there aren't any cheap fares in first. And for a 90 minute journey, First really can't ever make sense. As an example, I regularly find a man in the second class coach with me. He's a Lord, and used to be Foreign Secretary - the second highest political job in Britain. He's well off (they get a decent pension, and he's got a few other income streams) - but he'd no more dream of paying for First than he'd fly to the moon. His Lordship pulls out his Senior Railcard like everyone else and sits making silly faces at the flannerpooch.

So which makes more sense: buying bit by bit, or getting a pass?

You need to do the calculations for your particular circumstances. But for a two-week stay in London, with a trip out with an area bounded by Cambridge/Stratford/Weymouth every three or four days, buying a discount card, using it to get walk-up fares and then going Second is almost always the best value on offer

Here are my thoughts. I purchased an 8 day 1st class rail pass which I will begin using Feb. 2. with my senior discount and winter off season discount I paid near $400 or about $50.00 per trip or perhaps 30 pounds. I will use it from London to Aberdeen, Lots of other Trips like Aberdeen to St. Bees and I feel that I am not paying a an inflated price. Flanneruk, I disagree with you. Plus, I also don't have to stand in lines in the Buffet car as you do. I feel that I get great service for a very reasonable cost.

Roger - sometimes locals forget the difference between a tourist, oft laden with luggage, and a commuter, laden with brief case.

And flimflanner in another post once said he only took the Eurostar trains in first class - when he is traveling and not commuting.

That said i thank flanner.co.uk for his valuable to many perhaps info. But him taking the same train line all the time into London does not put him in a position of many tourists - taking many different trains on many different lines.

I assure you he would not be commuting in 2nd class on many of the regional and commuter trains i have been on.

I think he must ride the Cotswold Line into Marylebone - a line with so few riders that it should have been axed long ago and is know for losing tons of money that local taxpayers have to put in periodically to keep it afloat.

You just cannot generalize in Britain's trains by the experience on one train line.

And i'd wager like most Brits Flim rarely takes the train to anywhere else in Britain other than to London which is a matter of necessity really.

But hey with the Pound in free fall and the Network Card yes passes like the London Plus Pass may not be great deals there were when the Pound was $2.10 to $ - i expect British railpasses to be reduced in price across the board soon - one reason not to buy very far in advance. Eurailpasses were reduced about 15% last month due to the strengthening dollar and i expect BritRail folks in Quebec to follow suit soon.

But if you want the absolute cheapest way to travel the trail in UK go to www.nationalrail.co.uk and scan the discounted and highly restricted fares and book them early if on long-distance trains.

However if you want complete flexibility look at that benefit - some folks going to say Stratford or Bath for the day want to start earlier than 9:30am weekdays - not possible if you have to take off-peak trains for the Network Card to give a discount i believe.

More about Flanner's most recent post (and Flanner is a tremendous resource about British travel (he's English) and i thank him for his contribution, which has much of value.

I will again say however you cannot generalize about train travel on all of Britain's 28 or so privatized rail franchises by habitually riding just one as they are IME wildly different in terms of competence, crowding, etc.

Flanner ole chap rides i think the train from Cotswolds to Paddington - rather a commuter type rail line. And IME second class on these type local commuting trains is the way to go. Because:

- if they do have any first class seats it may just be a cubby hole with a few seats separated from the bulk of the train by a "1st Class" sign and be very little different. And IME it is not unusual to find locals who have standard class tickets sitting in these supposedly reserved for first class travelers area. Thus it would be foolish to pay the much higher train fare - esp when multiplied by frequent travel.

But on long-distance inter-city type trains (which i'd wager flanner never takes) there is a vast difference between the classes.

LEFT LUGGAGE AND BRITISH STATIONS
At one time nearly every major British train station had left-luggage facilities where you could leave bags whilst you got off the train for a few hours en route to your final destination - or as i often do on the Continent where most stations have luggage lockers - leave my heavy backpack there overnight and i waltz luggage-free to my hotel, putting essentials in a day pack.

But the IRA and other sundry more contemporary terrorist threats ended luggage storage in many British stations long ago. But major stations such as London's several main ones, York, Edinburgh, etc. still have left luggage - with baggage screening machines. But at a cost of 5-6 pounds per bag this is not all that cheap.

And whereas in the days of British Rail it was often possible to check luggage thru to your destination station so you did not have to deal with it en route this is no longer possible (though in stations sometimes you may find private parcel delivery firms that may do it at the cost of an arm and a leg.

NEXT - LUGGAGE STOWAGE ON TRAINS

LUGGAGE ON TRAINS

Well as always for any kind of train trip my advice is to PACK LIGHT!

And though British train stations have done a great job lately for making platforms accessible to physically challenged folks with new lifts, etc. train travel still means going up and down stairs and train stair steps can be rather high (rarely flat floor it seems) and train corridors can be tight - have wheels on whatever you bring and make sure you can lift it above your head and into overhead racks if necessary.

British trains often have some space under the aisle seats but in a packed second class train finding space for largely unwieldly bags may be hard.

Another perk of first class is that, due to the inevitably empty seats, i at least have always had an empty seat either across from me or next to me that i put my luggage in.

There are presently no security checks when boarding trains but once aboard pay heed to the warnings not to leave unattended baggage anywhere in a station or on the train - it could be taken away and blown up!

UNIQUE TO BRITISH TRAINS - HOW TO OPEN THE DOORS!

OPENING DOORS ON BRITISH TRAINS

Why would this merit comment - train doors open automatically, right?

Wrong on some British trains, such as the older InterCity 125 trains where you must roll down the window and open the train door from the OUTSIDE!

A safety measure to prevent train doors from opening by mistake (or purpose) from the inside.

I have never seen such a crude (and perplexing - why i mention it - i've seen many a flummoxed tourist fumbling to open the exit doors and not knowing how to) on any other European trains and in Britain more and more the usual automatic locking and opening is becoming the norm - but there still are plenty of trains where you must open the door from the outside only.

Very very Quaint.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/06/2009

I am copying an answer i posted to someone saying they were going from London to Edinburgh and back and were finding train fares too high - i recommended they look into a BritRail Pass as it could be cheaper than the fares added up both ways (and also provide totally flexible travel - hop any train anytime - not be restricted on the exact train and face non-changeable non-refundable conditions of carriage.

<Here's a bit about the pass:

If you will be going up to Edinburgh and back in a 3-day period or 4-day period consider the BritRail Consecutive Day pass:

3-days straight - 1st cl =$305 ($259 if 60 and over)

4-days straight $379 1st cl ($319 is a senior 60 and over

In Standard Class (2nd class)

3-days $199; 4 days $249 ; youth under 26 $159 and $199 respectively

If you are going to be in Scotland longer look at the bit higher price 3-day flexipass (good over a 2-month period - 3 unlimited days of your chosing) - better for folks stopping off like in the Lake District, York, etc.

If you have more than two traveling adults the 3rd thru 9th pay only 50% of what the first two full paying adults do

Kids under 16 accompanying parents get a free pass.

Between Nov and end of Feb all prices are about 20% discounted - the Off-Peak Special

For other pass prices and a whole lot of good info on rail travel in Britain: http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id11.html#abcons
and www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com

and it is not unusual that at www.nationalrail.co.uk you will not find the deep discounted fares available for the day and time you want to travel. One BritFodor who lives in Edinburgh has posted more than once that she could never get a good fare when she wanted to go - but again it's all on the national rail site - the various fares, conditions, etc.

Copying and pasting comments about railpasses vs discounted restricted fares from another thread
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Author: flanneruk
Date: 02/12/2009

Britrail appears to be a French-owned American company that makes its money by quoting absurdly specific plans on the basis of the Network Card-discounted fares quoted on the National Rail site.

And simply ignore the downright fraudulent claims Britrail makes about point to point prices.


Author: rogeruktm
Date: 02/12/2009

For whatever reason flanneruk hates trains in his own country, so don't take it as set in stones comments he makes. I used my Britrail pass for 8 days and just returned yesterday. In spite of the snow from Scotland to London I made every connection. The Brits were very envious when we compared ticket cost. 1st class average of 30 pounds per day good for any train at any time. So, it works for me. Flanneruk takes a horrid commute train daily into London so he bases his experience on that trip. I did trains from Aberdeen to London with stops at many places on the way. Great fun in spite of the miserable weather.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/12/2009

The 4-consecutive day BritRail England railpass is a tremendous bargain IMO for what you envision - especially since your kids get a free pass to match what the adults buy

and none of the frustrating looking for online discounts that peg you into a certain train or have restrictions on trains you can board, off-peak conditions, etc.

The railpass allows you to board any train anytime - just hop on - fully flexible tickets are often exorbitant - as you apparently have seen on nationalrail.co.uk

Kids under 16 get free passes - one for each accompanying adult. Thus the chid's fare 5-15 applies only to a couple having more than two kids or kids traveling on their own. The free Family Pass that is issued with the adults' passes requires only that a kid be under 16 and traveling with adults - but only one free kid per adult.

Also consider the England Railpass Flexi - costs more per day of travel then the 4-consecutive day pass but gives you an overall 2-month validity period in case you do not want to lump all your train days together. Passes are not sold in UK stations cause Brits cannot use them - only for foreign tourists and really no comparable, in price at least, all-lines pass available locally.

The BritEngland railpass can be used on all of the 28 or so independent British rail franchises - there are no 'BritRail' trains but the pass can be used on any train on any franchise anytime you want. Even if you bought individual tickets with the most several restrictions i think you would possible just save a few pounds - at an incredible cost of losing flexibility and having to make advance arrangments. Some great sources of info on British trains and railpasses: www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - the last one has a free phone consultation where you can ask questions like you did in your OP of experts IME. And yes do check out www.nationalrail.co.uk to compare possible fares - if you don't save a lot then IMO go for the complete flexibility of hopping impromptuly on any of zillions of daily English trains.

Britrail BTW is not a French-owned American company as erroneously reported above (it's actually a Canadian company based in Quebec)

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/12/2009

I said BritEngland Pass because it is cheaper than a BritRail Pass, thinking that you are only going thru a small section of Wales - from just beyond Chester to Holyhead

check Chester to Holyhead fares on nationalrail.co.uk and then compare to adding those fares onto the cost of a BritEngland Railpass and the BritRail Pass, which would include Wales.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/12/2009

Yes indeed all that bluster from flanner about passes never being a good deal is simply a bunch of rubbish.

like roger i have had BritRail Passes for years and always have found them a great deal - esp the hop on at will aspect.

If you do fly to Dublin then the only pass you would look into would be the London Plus Pass - which gives unrestricted train access to all the cities you mention - including Stratford and even to Bath.

You could use it to get to Bath, to me England's finest city - stay there and then buy a regular ticket to go from the English/Welsh border to Holyhead, a cheap ticket since it's not very far.

The London Plus Pass also gives transfer from London airports on the Airport Express trains that can be used outside the validity of the pass. A 4-day London Plus Pass would be hard to beat for four day trips - esp if you want to end up in Bath, on Ireland's doorstep practically (and actually see the country from the train rather than just more airports)

Locals like flanner are often a wealth of advice but it seems when talking of trains at least he often has blinders on - to say a pass is always a waste of money is simply rubbish IMO. (It may be and all the fares are at nationalrail.co.uk to compare - and do not underestimate the total flexibility aspect of the pass vs restricted discounted tickets (where if you miss that train you are out of luck and then have tobuy a full-fare ticket)

Author: flanneruk
Date: 02/12/2009

"flanneruk hates trains in his own country".
Bollocks

"Flanneruk takes a horrid commute train daily"
Triple bollocks in spades

If the only way you can make your case is to attack - with spectacular inaccuracy in this case - someone else's motives, you're simply incapable of making a case.

Which probably means your case isn't worth making.

Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a daytrip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddly squat about this country's geography and transport system

Or both.

Author: jent103
Date: 02/12/2009, 04:03 pm

Others are much more knowledgeable about passes than I am, but I've done point-to-point in the UK and it doesn't have to cost a fortune, as long as you plan ahead. As flanner suggests, start with nationalrail.co.uk. That site consolidates the different companies' prices and schedules, and then will point you to sites where you can actually purchase the tickets.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/12/2009

<Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a daytrip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddly squat about this country's geography and transport system>

including you i guess for making this blanket statement

I require flexibility - meaning i want to go to the train station and hop on the next train

The fully flexible train fare London to Holyhead is 120 pounds or about $190 or so in 2nd class

then are you saying that i can flexibly travel to both Stratford and Oxford for $9? Because that is just what you are saying

A four-day consecutive BritRail Pass like OP was considering is currenty $199 p.p. (and kids go FREE)

So for flexible travel as i require i pay $190 just for the London-Holyhead train - no way can i do a day trip to Oxford (even by slow bus) or take a train to Stratford and then to Holyhead for $9

Flanner explain to me, for my requirements how the following quote from you is not just pure baloney?

<Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a day trip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddily squat about this country's geography and transport system>

That said if my requirements were less and i wanted to pin myself down then i'd think you may be right (if i could get the cheapest fares) - so my quibble with you is lumping everyone together and blankedly saying it is foolish to contemplate a railpass for these trips. And i like to travel first class - in that case the first class flexible fare London to Holyhead would be i'm sure more than the whole cost of a 4-day pass.

The mistake some folks not familiar with the British rail fare structure is automatically considering a pass - and you are correct in alerting them to the other options as you superbly do - but do NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater in saying as you often do that passes never make a good idea - it depends on several factors.

Author: rogeruktm
Date: 02/12/2009

After more thought I think part of the difference is the fact that flanneruk lives there and his plans most likely are more flexible than a tourist. So if I am in London, as a tourist and decide to train to Durham at a whim,I have to pay through the nose for an expensive ticket With a pass,any train, any time and a set cost. For the record I departed Aberdeen to Edinburgh, 1st class, then a Virgin train to Carlisle, 1st class and then the Northern train to St. Bee's. No reservations, no pre- booked tickets,and my fully flexible cost was the daily average of 30 pounds.

Author: aj345
Date: 02/12/2009

I spent a LOT of time on the nationalrail site today, and I am still considering the options. Although the savings are great, you give up flexibility as PalenQ points out. I think the 4-day Consecutive pass would be worthwhile if we stayed over two nights on the way to Holyhead, which will also break up the long trip. And thank you PalenQ also for confirming that my 15-year-old would go free. That means our total for all train travel would be $518 - $259 per adult - and we'd have to do a lot less planning, see more of the country, and not commit to specific dates and times.

Author: azzure
Date: 02/13/2009

I believe that if you go to the National Rail site you can buy point to point tickets very cheaply, if you wait until you are within 60 days of the journey. At any rate, that is what we did, and we traveled from London to York for about £35 for the two of us.

Author: PalenQ
Date: 02/13/2009

And simply ignore the downright fraudulent claims Britrail makes about point to point prices.>

What fraudulent claims - they advertise 'British Open Tickets' and if you compare those prices to fully flexible 'open' tickets sold in the U.K. you will often find that they are not overpriced at all.

Recently took a train to Manchester from London with my BritRail Pass and there was an announcement for passengers to be sure they were on the right train if they had train-specific (discounted tickets flanner mentions) or they would be charge the full standard class (2nd) class one-way fare of about 130 pounds (or some ridiculously high figure) - at that time about $270! I would be that BritRail's price for similarly open fully flexible fares would be less actually. (And a 4-day railpass was $199 - for 4 days of fully flexible travel!)

So flanner is comparing apples to oranges when he harangues about BritRail posting absurd pricing - comparing highly restricted perhaps impossible to book fares with 'open fares' or fully flexible fares.

Yes apples to oranges - flanner should also aim his cannon at Britain's own rail franchises who do charge ridiculously high fares for open tickets, much like BritRail.com hawks.

Perhaps BritRail should point out that much cheaper tickets exist, with drawbacks - good point

but would flanner the merchandiser guru put signs in his stores that 'customers can buy the same product cheaper at a competitor a few doors down' - think NOT.

The real problem is why Britain's privatized rail franchises are allowed to themselves charge such obscenely high open fares - such as the 130 quid each way to Manchester and why Brits like flanner don't equally decry that.

a bit of hypocrisy it seems. And there has been discussion in Britain of leveling out the huge fare discrepancy to encourage more spontaneous train travel. Now if you do not book a long-distance train in advance - far in advance perhaps - then you face an enormous walk up fare, which discourages spontaenous travel.

Well anyway with fully flexible open fares often being so astronomically high a railpass becomes a better deal then ever - for what it gets you fully flexible travel - hop any train any time.

There are more aspects to railpasses than flanner seems to judge them buy - comparing them to discounted tickets with stringent restrictions. Even on a day trip to Stratford the cheaper fares typically (i have not looked up Stratford specifically) restrict your outbound travel before 9:30am Mon-Fri - and many folk would like to start earlier than 9:30 for a day trip a few hours each way by train, etc.

Don't judge efficacy of railpasses by comparing them to the cheapest possible means of carriage IMO - full flexibility is a HUGE perk.

Josser -<I travel 2nd class and have found it perfectly clean and so far the trains have been on time. Yes, I find that you need to book a seat, but the idea that travelling 2nd class is like something out of the Third World is just daft.>

Let me clarify about any third world comment i may have mentioned - no i should not say third world but rather comparing British trains to those on the Continent - in that comparision British trains stack up IME rather poorly. I have yet to be on a train where the complimentary coffee i get in first class did not rattle in its saucer the whole way - never have seen this on the Continent - so the tracks are not nearly in as good a shape - infrastructure problems constantly occur - 'signalling problems' being a prominent one - and also staff shortage - driver don't show up, etc.

And the 2nd class trains cars in Britain i believe are more narrow than those on the Continent - meaning less room as they still have the same 2 by 2 seats on each side of an aisle - and the seats are simply much harder IME to get into and out of and typically 2nd class is full or nearly so and there are bags everywhere - and cleanliness - i would again say that in 2nd class it pales vs Continental trains - often IME empty soda tins, a ton of newspapers, fast-food wrappers, etc. I actually stepped into a pile of vomit recently - it had been covered by a newspaper - that has never happened to me on the Continent - commuter trains of southeast trains - i ride them often - can be incredibly filthy and graffiti even marring the views.

First class on the other hand is as good or better than any on the Continent - and complimentary tea or coffee the whole way and often a veritable meal (Virgin Trains) - and are rarely even half full - lay your bags next to you rather than having to lean over someone to try to stuff something into an overhead already full rack.

My advice is for any tourist traveling around the U.K. is to go first class - 2nd class will get you there but apply the same criteria to train travel as you would to accommodations. You can sleep perfectly well in a youth hostel but do you?

TYPES OF PASSES

FLEXI VS CONSECUTIVE DAY

BRITRAIL PASS (Valid in England, Wales and Scotland)
BRITRAIL FAMILY PASS
BRITRAIL PARTY PASS
BRITRAIL YOUTHPASS + EURAIL YOUTHPASS TIE-IN

BRITRAIL ENGLAND PASS

LONDON PLUS FLEXIPASS
BRIT-IRELAND PASS

NEXT - We'll take a look at each pass with sample itineraries, etc.

FLEXI VS CONSECUTIVE DAY PASSES

A flexible ('flexi') railpass gives you a certain number of unlimited travel days to be used anytime you like over a 2-month period - a day here - a day a week from now, etc. - or consectuive days - such passes have a number of boxes on them that you are supposed to write that day's date in in ink before boarding the train (or at least before the conductor comes thru)

Like any pass you must ACTIVATE your pass at a train station ticket window before boarding you first train - thus the 2-month period begins and you then write that date in the first box on the pass. To activate you show all the passports for each name on the pass and the clerk writes the passport numbers on the pass (or you can do it ahead - or the clerk may leave the passport number line blank and then you should do it. Then you board any train you want and just flash the pass to the conductor when he comes along - usually he/she will just perfunctorily glance at the pass.

If taking overnight trains (like the Caledonian Sleepers between London and Scotland) then with a flexipass you put the next day's date on your pass and thus do not have to use two days even if the train leaves before midnight. Then when you arrive in Scotland you pass will still be valid for the whole day - meaning you could (as i did once) take a Sleeper train from London to Inverness and then use the pass to take the scenic Highlands rail line to Kyle of Lochlash and only use one day on your pass. The Isle of Skye is just a short bus ride from Kyle of L so one one day on a pass you could go from London the Isle of Skye!

NEXT - CONSECUTIVE DAY PASSES


A CONSECTU

CONSECUTIVE DAY PASSES

Well obviously this means 3-, 4- 8-, etc. straight days of train usage - as much as you want anytime anywhere - just hop on.

Why a consecutive day pass? Because they are cheaper per day than a Flexipass - so for folks say going to Edinburgh from London and wishing to stop off in York or some other cities for a day or even a few hours en route may find these to me cheaper than even the cheapest online discounted fares (or may not depending on the date and how far in advance you book those cheaper non-refundable non-changeable fares. Especially someone landing at Gatwick or heathrow airports and going on somewhere that same day can use the pass on airport express trains then to go say to Bath or Scotland and return to London with the consecutive day period. In Edinburgh you could also do short day trips to Sterling or St Andrews on the pass without paying an extra pence for those train trips.

NEXT ANALYSIS OF EACH - TYPICAL ITINERARIES, ETC

Note - Questions, comments, disagreements all welcomed.

BRITISH TRAIN STATIONS - An Aside

Before continuing on pontificating about passes i'll mention one of my favorite things about riding the British rails - the many old Victorian-era brick train stations.

In many ways Britain was the country that made rail travel a regular fabric of its way of life - in the late 1800s when lines were built everywhere and the British Rail system was the envy of the world. And the still glamorous brick stations from this era are still used (though there are some casualties in larger cities where old stations were bulldozed and replaced by drab modern ones - like Birmingham New Street, London's King's Cross - now being restored to its former glory - London Paddington, etc.

But for there are still lots of neat old Victorian stations - my favorite is York - a grand train shed.

Stations inevitably have cafes and pubs and take out stores - and there are usually no restrictions on what you can bring aboard so stock up in stations rather than paying the predatory pricing in the train's buffet ('buffy') car, where 'small change is always appreciated' says the 'purser'

Palenque - thanks again for this thread. I'm buying our passes tomorrow. Trying to figure out the rail system in the UK has been a nightmare. Website problems, confusing websites, and high prices to boot.

We're going for an 8-day consecutive pass, standard class, for $299 for us and $239 for our student daughter and her friend. Even though we won't be traveling for 8 days by train, it still works out cheaper than point to point. Also, the flexibility is there. We found that we weren't able to book most of the "Advance" fares due to time conflicts, and the regular prices were just ridiculous.

I'll post an update when we get back at the end of the month. I'm really looking forward to just hopping on a train and going. We've done it before on the Continent and it's a liberating feeling.

Thanks for your help!

soogies - in turn thanks for the info - getting the cheap fares that are often hyped is not always easy - especially when you may want to travel. I am one who does not want to book some non-changeable ticket weeks in advance, etc. But for the folks taking only a few trips and not needing flexibility that's fine too. Please update me and us on this thread - i'm sure you will love British trains. And don't forget how some of those doors open from the outside only!

cheers

Thanks, Pal.

Has any of you used Megatrain? The price is certainly right if you can find a train on the desired day.

Josser, I certainly don't want any Britons annoying me while I'm trying to read either. So don't try it, or I'll snub you.

Palenque - Thanks for the headsup on the doors!!

I just ordered our RailPasses from Rick Steves and the price went down from yesterday.

$285 for 8 day consecutive standard class. I'm happy because I do love the flexibility a pass provides.

Stoke - no i have not ridden Megatrain - for one reason i always have a pass - but if Megatrain (a la Megabus) works then you can ride for a ridiculously cheap price. I will have to learn more about Megatrain to tell you the truth.

I looked at Megatrain last night, and you could only book up to the end of April. No seats were available for my London-Chesterfield trip then, but looking at today and the next few days there were plenty of options. Makes me wonder whether they just book unsold seats for other train lines, rather than have actual physical megatrains?

Megabus and Megatrain are part of the Stagecoach travel company. Although they have a dedicated fleet of coaches for road journeys, their train journeys use those of Stagecoach rail operating companies (e.g. South-West Trains), or those of other rail companies. The rail journeys they offer are very much on off-peak trains, and may use less direct routes (e.g. Bristol to London).

Fine if the journey times suit your plans, but there is a reason they are cheap.

Megabus used to use old double-decker buses from Hong Kong, which were noisy and uncomfortable. They now have more comfortable vehicles.

Thanks, chartley. The London-Chesterfield Megatrain trips appears to have roughly the same duration as the other lines.

No snobs, us, so even if there were chicken coops strapped to the top and goats baaing down the aisle we could handle it for a few hours, in mental exchange for a lavish lunch at the end financed by the money we'd save.

We have Megabus now in the States - i just saw one heading for Chicago - dirt cheap too. It were a double-decker bus too.

A friend of ours headed home for winter break from the U of Chicago pulled up in cab just has her megabus was pulling away. They were kind enough to put her on the next bus.

Bus travel in Britain is often dirt cheap and there are zillions of buses going everywhere all the time - unlike most of Europe where buses pick up where trains stop - from stations to the hinterlands.

But give me the train any day - you are now free to move around the train - and have guaranteed easy access to lavatories and keep your luggage with you.

Most buses i've taken are very crowded and the seats have less leg room than trains it seems (not sure about this as some standard-class train cars have really tiny seats compared to Continental trains - buses can also get snarled in traffic, esp around large cities.

but if want the cheapest way if not the most comfy consider the bus - and a national bus pass which i do believe still exists.

www.nationalexpress.com i think is the major bus company though stagecoach.com and others like Arriva run many buses.

mark

I went to the Britrail.com website to get the price of a PtP ticket from London to Edinburgh. When I hit the "Book Tickets" button this message returned:
"Sorry... That page doesn't exist...
The page you requested was not found, and we have a fine guess why.
* If you typed the URL directly, please make sure the spelling is correct.
* If you clicked on a link to get here, the link is outdated."

It is their own link!

Palenque, do have info on PtP tickets or a reliable web site?

TIA.

www.nationalrail.co.uk has prices for all of the various rail franchises in Britain - you will find a variety of fares with varying conditions - often non-refundable non-changeable for the cheapest fares so read the conditions

The BritRail Passes can of course be used on any train any time - just show up and hop on - in the U.K. apart from Northern Ireland and fully flexible fares are typically rather expensive.

thetrainline.com is a similar site to nationalrail.co.uk and one English lady recently said she found slightly cheaper prices on that site. Note with foreign credit cards add 3% to the price for currency conversion.

Spaarne - BritRail.com lists point to point fares they sell at the top price, similar to what fully flexible tickets bought at the stations in Britain may be and then inflate them a bit it seems. They do not list or sell the many non-full price and non-fully flexible tickets that you will see on nationalrail.co.uk. BritRail.com is a part of ACP Rail in Quebec i believe and owns the BritRail franchise in the Americas - i would never suggest buying point to point tickets from BritRail.com because you can buy the same ticket - probably cheaper - fully flexible - at the station in England.

bookmarking

Hello,

My husband and I will be in England in early October and want to take the train to Edinburgh as we will be flying out from there. I can't seem to find which station to leave from. We will be visiting friends who live in Pulloxhill in Beds and I don't know which station to buy our tickets. Also, is the price of a one-way ticket to Edinburgh much, much more than say flying on EasyJet. I really love trains and want to take one to Edinburgh unless the price is just outlandish. Thank you so much for any info you can give me.

starla - all you info is at www.nationalrail.co.uk - London trains leave from King's Cross (except overnight Caledonian Sleeper i believe leaves from Paddinton.

but you may find an intermediate station north of Kings X to join the twice hourly about London to Edinburgh trains that take about 4.5 hours. YOu should also scour nationalrail.co.uk for advance fares that can be a whole bunch cheaper than just turning up at the station and buying on the spot.

Thanks so much, I've visited the website and it's very helpful. We were considering buying a rail pass, but this will probably be the only train trip we will take during our visit.

No not even close to making a railpass pay off for one journey

It appears the nearest train station to you is Flitwick and when i put Flitwick and Edinburgh in the schedule it always routes you back to London - to St Pancras and having you walk next door to Kings Cross for the Edinburgh train

perhaps someone can drive you to an intermediate station on the Kings Cross to Edinburgh line but from Flitwick you go first via London.

http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/

Some Brits say this site may yield even better fares on the London-Edinburgh line - seems to offer 10% off for online booking.

BRIT RAILPASS FREE DAY PROMO

BritRail recently announced that any passes (except London Plus and Brit-Ireland passes) will get an extra day FREE if purchased before June 2, 2009

thus a 4-consecutive day pass becomes 5

and a 4-day flexipass becomes 5, etc.

And after the pass is issued you have six months in which to activate the pass and use the free day - meaning anyone going to Britain before next Nov can get a day free! In either class, first or second, youthpasses, Family Passes, Party Passes all included.

Another special on BritRail Passes is offered to anyone who buys a Eurail Youthpass - or even a one-country to two-country Eurail Youthpass - they will then get 50% off a BritRail Pass (or England, etc).

HIGH SPEED COMMUTER TRAINS LONDON TO KENT BEGIN SERVICE
In the past few weeks the all-new Chunnel train line from London to the Chunnel and onto Paris or Brussels has also seen a start up of the long-awaited Kent Sprinters - not their official name but one that has been batted about. Though there are yet i believe just two stations being served - Ebbsfleet and Ashford International - the latter in about 35 mins - these will make day trips into Kent by rail to places like Canterbury, etc. quicker - more details forthcoming. I would think railpasses would be valid on these domestic high-speed commuter trains but not totally positive. Will get back about that!

National Rail doesn't sell tickets - it will redirect you to one of the companies that run the trains like FGW.

Alan Rowe, a font of knowledge about online British rail tickets, recently recommended on another thread that in addition to www.nationalrail.co.uk that the www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com is better IHO for these reasons:

Alan: <Generally it doesn't matter which train operating company website you use as they all show the same trains and generally the same prices. HOWEVER some TOCs have special offers if you book their trains through their websites.

Personally I'd use www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com as it shows all the possible prices for tickets - so you can see if you are seeing the cheap tickets for a particular service or are trying to book too early / too late>

thanks Alan for that info. I will check it out.

And a Brit concurred with Alan on the same thread:

<The National Express website is by far the best - it is set up slightly differently to the others, which maddeningly make you go back to the start of the booking process if your seating preference etc isn't available (eg if you pick 'airline' and there are only 'table' left).

It also doesn't make you pick the 'two singles may be cheaper' option - it'll just take you straight there if they are.

And it doesn't charge for posting out tickets (in the UK), if you prefer that.

And it accepts more card types than any other rail website.>

MORE ON KENT HIGH-SPEED COMMUTER TRAINS
(Referring to post just above)
These trains are called Javelin trains and speed thru Kent, the so-called Garden of England, at speeds up to 140 mph. the trains are run by the Southeastern Trains franchise, which pretty much has a lock on rail service in Kent from London.

They will only serve two Kentish stations apparently - from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet, a new parkway-type station out of any city - and Ashford International, which has good rail links to most any place in Kent - Canterbury, Dover, Hastings (actually in Sussex), etc. The journey to Ashford takes about 1.5 hours on the older commuter trains but only 37 minutes by Javelin from St Pancras - using the same new high-speed rail line that the Eurostar ("Chunnel") trains use. the trains will be so speedy that the usual 'trolley' service for snacks will not be feasible, Southeastern Trains says.

338-seat trains carry up to 508 people - limited service started June 29, 2009 with three morning peak services to Ebbsfleet and Ashford with a full service commencing from Dec 13, 2009.

Q - Are the London Plus and BritRail Passes valid on these Javelin high-speed commuter trains? I do not yet know but i assume they are since all trains in Britain, except tourist museum trains, are covered - all Southeastern Trains are covered so i suspect so but will try to confirm.

Privitisation Has Been a Train Wreck?

Jul 2, 2009 ... Ken Livingstone: With National Express abandoning a franchise, the system is bankrupt. Railway nationalisation is the only rational ...
www.guardian.co.uk/.../national-express-rail-privatisation

Though not of general interest to folks planning a British rail adventure i relay this for those interested in Britain's unparalleled in Europe privitization of its former national rail network (a k a BritRail), which to me, as a user, is a failure with chaos rarely seen on European railways.

Ken Livingstone, a k a 'Red Ken' for his former really left-wing views, was Mayor of London until losing his re-election bid to current mayor Boris Badanoff.

Update on Javelin trains - high-speed commuter trains running between St Pancras and Kent. Railpasses are indeed valid, i've been told and the fares for the high-speed Kentish trains will be much higher than existing routes:

24.30 pounds for a return fare St Pancras to Ebbsfleet - 34% more than the current service and a bit more to go to Ashford.

BritRail has announced its annual Off-Peak low-season special, with a discount off normal pass prices of 20% - valid for travel between Nov 1 and Feb 28, 2010

Note that the 20% off applies to all BritRail Passes - even the Party Pass - and also Youthpasses - so folks under 26 or those traveling in say parties of four can really get ridiculously cheap prices and then for fully flexible tickets - really a real deal. I'll give some examples next.

Well i guess i'll turn attention to itineraries by rail in Britain - some typical itineraries for folks not having been to Britain before - such as variations on the basic London - York - Scotland - Lake District - Bath - London trip. Concrete examples that i've done next.

Questions on British trains and passes from a tourist's point of view always welcomed!

A BRIT RAIL ITINERARY FOR FIRST TIMERS
If you have never been to the U.K. and don't care about driving on the 'wrong side' of the road or coping with the incredibly difficult city driving, etc. then consider this itinerary as encompassing many of IMO the highlights of the UK for a first time visitor:

LONDON - Of course, for however many days

1- Train to YORK - 1 or more days

2- From YORK train to EDINBURGH - for at least a few days

3- Train to the LAKE DISTRICT, railhead WINDERMERE for at least a few days

4- Train to BATH

5- Train to STRATFORD-UPON AVON

6- Return to LONDON

7- From LONDON do a day trip by train to SALISBURY and nearby STONEHENGE

8 - Day Trip to either CAMBRIDGE OR OXFORD

The above comports to an 8-day BritRail Flexipass.

Will expand on this itinerary next, including other possible add-ons like NORTH WALES. Comments always welcomed.

Tweaking the Above British Rail Itinerary

York to Edinburgh - for something off the beaten path stop overnight at Berwick-on-Tweed, a unique fortified seaside town with lots of Victorian military barracks, etc. but a great place from which to take a bus into the Scottish Border Abbeys country - like to Melrose, a sweet regional town with its famous Melrose Abbey and also to nearby Jedburgh Abbey and Dryburgh Abbey - all ruined abbeys in the Scottish Borders area along the English-Scottish frontier. Melrose itself makes a swell place to stay if you want to leisurely visit these three great abbeys (and other neat sights in the area) - you can easily hop a bus to Edinburgh from Melrose so you need not backtrack to Berwick-on-Tweed - though for a day trip on the above rail itinerary seeing a few abbeys is easily possible in one day (indeed i visited all three and had time to spare).

Border Abbeys Tour Page on Undiscovered Scotland
Border Abbeys Tour Page on Undiscovered Scotland: The Ultimate Online Guide. ... In a reversal of what has happened in other abbeys like Melrose and ...
www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/.../borderabbeys/index.html

YORK AS A FEW-HOUR STOP EN ROUTE TO EDINBURGH

Tweaking possiblities for the above itinerary if you don't have time to spend in York, IMO one of the very finest English towns, known especially for its awesome Minster (cathedral), then you can still see the town's main sites by getting off the train to Edinburgh in York for a few hours or so.
York is one of the few train stations outside of London that has luggage lockers so you can stash our bags in one and stroll the 1/2 mile or so to the town centre and fabulous York Minster - stop by the York Tourist Information Centre in the train station for maps, etc. or hop on the double-decker buses for tourists that serve the train station and do a loop around York's many sites - you can hop on and off all day.

So staying a day or two is great but sandwiching York into a London to Edinburgh rail journey is possible as well.

Ditto Palenque regarding York. I recommend a couple of nights. The Minster is awesome inside and stunning at night.

Spaarne - ah yeh taking in Even Song in the Minster was so so sweet. And i have based in York and done day trips to nearby gems like Haworth (Bronte family home, museum, moor walks, etc.), Whitby for its abbey, Harrowgate (primo spa town) and Scarborough.

Before moving north from fab York i might add that even if not de-training at York you will at least be able to see the fantastic curving Victorian train shed that is the York Station - one of the nicest i've seen in a Britain not known for graceful train-station architecture.

And moving north from York the East Coast Main Line, as the London-Edinburgh train line is known passes thru Newcastle-on-Tyne, which has little to offer for the average tourist but the approach to the Newcastle train station is awesome as the train tracks across a high viaduct bridging the River Tyne gorge that bisects this famous beer and industrial port city. the train seems oft to grind to a halt on top of the trestle and one can view all the industrial detritus of the port area, etc. that hints at how important Newcastle once was as well as Britain's maritime heydey.

After Newcastle the scenery dramatically improves and stays so all the way to Edinburgh, at points tracking right along a pristine rugged coast.

Next up is Durham and its fantastic cathedral, another possible stop on the route to Edinburgh for folks who have time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne

Another neat stop between London and Edinburgh is Durham, a lovely regional town whose landmark feature is its imnposing cathedral and even if not getting off here keep eyes peeled on the right side of the train when going north for an awesome glimpse of the monumental church perched on a hill right opposite the Durham train station environs. Note that few British train stations have left luggage anymore - like York does - so i think it is not convenient for a few-hour stop - not sure but doubt if there is any left luggage, at least in the station.


City of Durham Tourism
The largest open-air museum in England is to be found at Beamish where you can see ... Contact Durham Tourist Information Centre for more information about ...

Attractions - Accommodation - Travel & Maps - Diary of Events
www.durhamtourism.co.uk/home.html

What if I wanted a Train pass for a family of 6? Mom, Dad, and 4 children (16, 15, 12, and 6)? What would be the best option for us? I'm thinking we'd only have 1 week. Looking at either November, March, or summer.

If you travel on any British railpass between Nov 1 and Feb 28 then all passes are Off-Peak or 20% off - you must finish using the pass by the end of February.
You'd have to give me more info - such as just travel in England - then i'd look at the Britrail England pass or if going to Scotland then the classic Britrail, covering England, Scotland and Wales (but not Northern Ireland)

Consecutive day passes are cheaper per day but they come only in 4- and 8-day lengths and these can be good if traveling every other day or so - otherwise i'd look at the Flexipasses, starting at 3-days of unlimited travel stretched out over a longer period (2 months in this case)

But with your family kids 15 and under get a free Family Pass to match whatever pass the two adults buy and under the Party Pass your 16 yr old would pay 50% of what the two adults pay per person

So with the Off-Peak deal and Family Pass your family can travel really cheaply and still have complete flexibility like full fare tickets which can be really expensive.

OK Back to the London to Edinburgh rail itinerary possibilities...

Once in Edinburgh you arrive at one of Britain's most unique if not gorgeous train stations - Edinburgh Waverly - the main station plopped right on the main drag - with Edinburgh Castle brooding over the area from its ridge-top perch.

Waverly is hectic, disjointed and IMO fantastic - built underground, on top of it is the Edinburgh Tourist Office, a repository of reams (literally) info on Edinburgh and Scotland - a neat resource when getting off the train. And Waverly is one of the few stations in Britain with left-luggage (last i knew - these things come and go as to terrorism alert levels)

Anyway with the train you arrive in the heart of tourist Edinburgh = just walk up the steep ramps to the surface level and one of the world's most exquisitely gorgeous cities unfolds.

Thank you Paenque for bumping this up for me

EDINBURGH DAY TRIPS by Rail

Though Edinburgh is IMO one of Europe's most fantastically gorgeous cities it is rather compact from a tourist's point of view and presents some really sweet day trips by train to mix in with the city itself - getting out into the Scottish countryside like doing the short train trip to Sterling, a nice vibrant regional town surrounded by lush countryside - Sterling is at the epicenter of Scottish history - a la Braveheart stories that i guess were set in the town's really imposing castle and environs that have served as battlefields.

Another neat day trip from Edinburgh by train goes to St Andrews, across the Forth of Firth (sp/) to Leuchars, from whose train station buses goe the few miles to the center of this really historic town = home to a great university - Prince William went here - and a nice old town with a fine sea front.

Glasgow, the historic rival of Edinburgh, is also a short train ride away and though it is often maligned for its soaring crime rate (not against tourists but strictly a local gang thing i think) but it does have some real gems - Victorian buildings in a parklike setting and a nice enough town centre.

And if you did not care to do the Scottish Borders Abbeys from Berwick-on-Tweed as discussed previously they are about an hour bus ride or so south of Edinburg as well.

NEXT GOING NORTH INTO THE HIGHLANDS FROM EDINBURG by Rail

Caledonian Sleeper Train | About the sleeper | ScotRail
Caledonian sleeper facilities include single and twin berth cabins with comfortable beds, blankets and fresh cotton sheets as well as air-conditioning and ...
www.scotrail.co.uk/caledoniansleeper/about-the-sleeper.html

Well before heading north of the Firth of Forth let's mention another way of taking a train from London to Scotland - the fabled Caledonian Sleepers, overnight trains that roll between London's Euston station and Edinburgh/Glasgow and to places north, like Inverness, way up in the Highlands area.

I've ridden them a couple of times and as overnight trains go in Europe they are tops IMO - esp first class compartments. More next time.

A first-hand report on riding the Caledonian Sleepers - i have done the London to Inverness route once with a railpass, a first-class pass and also have done Glasgow to London in a 'reclining seat' (2nd class) and the first example was one of the very finest overnight trains i've ever taken out of literally hundreds all over Europe and the second - the so-called 'reclining seat' was one of the very worst and most horrible overnight train journeys i've ever taken - not only in Europe but even worse than in places like India and Burma (Myamar)

OK for the first example - London to Inverness - i opted for a first-class single and i got a private compartment with a bed with sheets - some bottled water and an attendant who would sell me snacks and drinks if i wanted. The compartment was roomy - a window at bed level and in the morning a nice Continental breakfast served in the compartment.

This could not be a nicer overnight train - comfy, clean, etc.

Now next time i will describe the train ride to Hell that i foolishly experienced when taking the Caledonian Sleeper from Glasgow back to London that very same trip.

THE TRAIN TRIP FROM HELL - GLASGOW TO LONDON VIA CALEDONIAN SLEEPERLESS

For some stupid reason i had not planned well when wanting to return to London from Scotland and just turned up at the Maillag train station and asked for a reclining seat on that night's Caledonian Sleeper from Glasgow to London - figuring a reclining seat could not be too bad and i would save 40 pounds or so.

Well what a huge blunder - i got no sleep in this very crowded second-class regular car with 'reclining' seats that barely reclined an inch - and all the seats will full and like on usual standard (2nd) class train cars in Britain the seats are very tiny with very little leg room - i felt like i was going steerage on the old boats from Liverpool to the New World - i could barely move and the heating system barely heated the car. So i 'woke' up in London-Eustona after a sleepeless night - NEVER ever take a seat in a regular car on the Caledonian Sleepers - NEVER.

HOLIDAY AND BANK HOLIDAY TRAVEL WARNINGS

A current posting on another thread lists this year's Christmas Holiday closures of whole rail lines, bus substitutions, etc. - Dozens and dozens all over the country and this is typical of any holiday period IME - especially Bank Holidays in spring and summer - so if traveling at these times pay heed to the laundry lists of closings, etc. that are posted often in stations. You will get where you want to go but in many cases longer and having to change say from train to bus to train, etc.

For more details on the sleeping options on the Caldeonian Sleepers (London-Euston to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness, etc) - www.scotrail.co.uk/caledoniansleeper/about-the-sleeper.html

And note if you hit the link 'Seated Sleeping' you get a picture that in no way jives with the 'reclining seat' i ended up in on the Train Ride in Hell - that picture is for a first-class seated carriage - when i did this a few years ago there were no first-class seated carriages so if going seated pay extra for 1st class i guess.

OK MOVING NORTH - CROSSING THE FIRTH OF FORTH TO THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS BY RAIL - INCLUDING SOME OF EUROPE'S MOST SCENIC RAILWAYS - THE HIGHLANDS LINES

OK Before moving on north i forgeot to mention possible day trips from Edinburgh by train that you could incorporate into a British rail oddysey:

Sterling is just a few minutes away and this town has a castle of huge fame and national patrimony - Braveheart associations, etc. It's also a bustlin regional town set in a verdant area of forests and farms.

St Andrews - on the seaside north of the Firth of Forth - take a train to Leuchards - about 45 mins i think then buses meet the train to take you into this gem of an old town - home to a famous university - Prince William attended and a sweet seafront on the rugged North Sea. a nice pedestrian shopping zone area - neat restaurants, etc.

Glasgow - less than an hour by train - Edinburgh's huge rival city - don't be deterred by crime stats for Glasgow that put it as one of the western world's most dangerous cities - the violence is mainly between suburban young thugs and the average tourist would never occur.

The Scottish Border Abbeys - these - the same as outlined under Berwick far above here can also be reached by bus from Edinburgh in about an hour - talk of reopening a train line seems to have stalled but bus service is frequent and cheap.

NEXT CROSSING THE FIRST OF FORTH ON THE FIRST OF FORTH BRIDGE - one of the world's most unique and famous bridges.

Forth Railway Bridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Forth Bridge is a cantilever railway bridge over the Firth of Forth in the east of Scotland, to the east of the Forth Road Bridge, and 14 kilometres (9 ...

History - Construction - Maintenance - Competition
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_Railway_Bridge

Well before moving north into the Scottish Highlands here is some background on one of the world's most famous railway bridges - the one over the Firth of Forth that you must cross shortly after leaving Edinburgh to go towards the Highlands or any point north - even on a day trip to St Andrews you cross the bridge - everytime i cross the bridge is awesome but to see the bridge itself is equally mesmerizing - especially at night when it is gloriously illuminated - you can take a commuter train from Edinburgh to Queens Ferry (i think the name of the station near the south side of the bridge - an old resort in itself quaint)

The bridge is not only unique looking in its cantilevered form but is always mentioned as an astounding feat of railway engineering.

THE WEST HIGHLAND RAILWAY
IMO one of Europe's top scenic railways links Glasgow to Mallaig, via Fort William. So Next i'll talk about how to incorporate this incredible rail journey into a BritRail itinerary - starting from Edinburgh.

Background:

RAILSCOT | West Highland Railway
An illustrated guide to a line, now part of the Scotrail network, running from Glasgow through to Mallaig. Includes a chronology.
www.railbrit.co.uk/West_Highland_Railway/frame.htm -

West Highland Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The West Highland Line (Scottish Gaelic: Rathad Iarainn nan Eilean - "Iron Road to the Isles") is one of the most scenic railway lines in Britain, ...

History - Route description - The route in detail
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Highland_Line -

THE KYLE OF LOCHALSH SCENIC RAILWAY
Though IMO not quite as scenic a rail line as the West Highlands Line the Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash railway is awesomely scenic in many places, especially when it tracks thru desolate moors and along fjords before Kyle, from where there is bus service over to the nearby Isle of skye.

So i will outline a loop from Edinburgh to Inverness (Loch Ness area) to Kyle of Lochlash, over to the Isle of Skye and back from it by boat to Mallaig to take the West Highlands Railway down to Glasgow and then south via the Lake District to London.

Friends of the Kyle Line - Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh Railway ...
Friends of the Kyle Line - Kyle of Lochalsh to Inverness. The Highland Railway Line History and current events.
www.kylerailway.co.uk/

Wikipedia
The Kyle of Lochalsh Line is a primarily single track railway line in the Scottish Highlands, running from Dingwall to Kyle of Lochalsh. ...
History - Beeching Report - Modernisation - Services
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_of_Lochalsh_Line - Cached

The West Highland Line recently won an award as 'best world rail journey' in the Wanderlust Travel Awards 2009, beating all sorts of worldwide rail routes.

It's a deserved winner, I have travelled on all sorts of scenic lines around the world and it's still a favourite.

Taking the London to Fort William 'Caledonian Sleeper' is the best way to get there from London & the South, IMHO this is the 'Best Train in Britain', yet a bed for the night on it in a shared 2-berth sleeper starts at just £59 one-way.

I've written a whole webpage about this train and the West Highland line with photos, www.seat61.com/WestHighlandLine.htm.

thanks, Man... for your input - i also would put the West Highland Line at the very top of hundreds of scenic lines i've ridden both in europe and worldwide. It may not have the awesome glacier-girdled Alpine wonderland scenes but it does have a unique type of scenery -especially when the train tracks thru the desolate Ranleigh (sp? name?) Moor and then along fjord-like coasts to Mallaig. Well worth going out of your way for IMO.

Yes - I've seen both Rannoch Moor and Siberia, and frankly Rannoch Moor looks more remote and windswept!

Palenque,
What would you recommend for us?

Heathrow into London
two days in London
go to Southampton for cruise
after cruise (3 days)
Southampton to Bath
Bath to Oxford

Thanks so much.
Oxford to Heathrow

june - it is not easy to recommend say the Days Out of London Pass, which would cover all trains in your itinerary, including Heathrow Express trains vs tickets at www.nationalrail.co.uk- but if you want fully flexibile tickets with none of the restrictions many of the discount tickets from nationalrail.co.uk impose then IMO it is a no-brainer to go with the Days Out of London Pass. I would think the cheapest way would be to book in advance, as far as possible, nationalrail.co.uk if you do not desire fully flexible - get on any train anytime possibles. For lots on British trains and current pricing on this pass (not sold at stations in UK) i always highlight these superb info-laden sites: www.seat61.com - Man in Seat 61 has a link to www.nationalrail.co.uk for various online discounted fares and fully flexible full fares; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com- I will further analyze your itinerary and look at some fares to give me and you a more complete picture. Oxford to Heathrow is probably best and cheapest done by bus.

june - i got the pass name wrong -it's now called London Plus pass - covers trains all over southeast England and even out to Bath.

june - i just checked nationalrail.co.uk for Bath Spa (name of Bath station) to Oxford and even fully flexible board at will fares are only 21 pounds or $30 or so and advance fares can be as cheap as 12 pounds - train specific, non-changeable must book in advance - so if the Southampton to Bath Spa is similar as it seems it should be and London to S'hampton i'd say just buy individual tickets and forego any thought of the pass. You never know until checking how expensive 'travel at will" tickets are - for some journeys they are ridiculously expensive but not for Bath to Oxford - takes about 80 mins and you change at Didcot Parkway. As 21 pounds is only 8 pounds more than the typical cheapest Bath to Oxford fare booked in advance and with restrictions i'd opt for the fully flexible at will fare for an extra 8 pounds and just buy the ticket upon arrival in Bath

www.nationalrail.co.uk shows a London Waterloo station to Southampton Central, main station there fare of 32.70 pounds, standard class - an anytime fare- and actually for the day i checked there was only one cheaper fare 31.70 for off-peak - usually restricted on when you can leave -not before 9:30 perhaps

31.70 quid is about $45 so again the Pass i mentioned is too expensive for your total trains in light of the fares i found. Just buy this ticket at Waterloo though if you play around more with nationalrail.co.uk you could find other fares that for the one day i randomly checked were not available.

But just buy your tickets once there IMO- i see no great savings on my, granted casual checks, to warrant advance online purchases -but again do a more thorough search for the days you really want when the come on the data base.

PalenQ is correct in his first post. BritRail is not a British Rail thing.

They are a North American company that sells britrail passes on behalf of the ATOC (Association of train opperating companies)

Basically, when a railpass is sold in NA, all ATOC members get a cut of it.

They are not available to UK citizens.

There are only few NA companies that distribute them.

They are

BritRail (the contract holders)
http://www.britrail.com

Rail Europe (SNCF subsidiary)
http://www.raileurope.com

Britain On Track (Canadian distributor)
http://www.britainontrack.com

toilet - interesting but i am perplexed about the Canadian distributor Britain on Track - since BritRail is headquartered in Quebec (ACP Rail) why would they need a Canadian outlet? Or is the outlet just a part of ACP Rail, who owns TMK the BritRail contractees.

RailEurope is 1/3 owned by Swiss Railways so not totally an SNCF subsidiary though the President of Rail Europe always comes from the SNCF, who have effective control.

anyway thanks for that info

Want to post something here as a bookmark. This looks like a timely thread for my upcoming UK trip. Thanks!

Hi Palenque

That's just what I heard. I guess it could be wrong though.

And yes, you are right about Rail Europe. I always think of just SNCF because I believe they are majority holders.

Anyway. Thanks for correcting.

Toilet - i do appreciate the info, esp on the ATOC - i wondered how the BritRail Pass (and ticketing) moneys were funneled to Britain's28 or so independent rail franchises, all of which honor the BritRail Pass.

Yup as before privitization of the former BritRail nationalized rail system in the U.K. the BritRail Pass did coincide with the names on the trains in Britain - but BritRail died as a national rail system with privitization and now you have 28 or so different names on the split up privitized system.

This may account for the confusion of foreigners thinking there is a BritRail train system in Britain - twas once but not now.

thanks for your info.

ATOC
The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) represents and ... As the voice of the passenger railway, ATOC represents train companies to the ...
www.atoc.org/
Rail Staff Travel
Contact Us
About ATOC
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ATOC and train operators have been working with others in these initiatives, for example, through Route Utilisation Studies (RUSs) and ...
www.atoc.org/general/ConnectingCommunitiesReport_S10.pdfRail news and press releases | ATOC | ATOC Press Office - For the ...
The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) is a one stop shop for rail news and press releases for all of Britain's Train Operating Companies.
www.atoc-comms.org/

Is it true that BritRail passes can't be used from Ashford Intl. to St. Pancras on fast trains after March 2010?

"So i will outline a loop from Edinburgh to Inverness (Loch Ness area) to Kyle of Lochlash, over to the Isle of Skye and back from it by boat to Mallaig to take the West Highlands Railway down to Glasgow and then south via the Lake District to London."

Hi Pal, I have a few questions for you if you don't mind....

Where would you stop and stay the night (or two) along this route you mentioned?

Is there one primary route via the trains from Edinburgh to Inverness that we would take?

You've mentioned the Isle of Skye before and I am curious exactly where via train would you stop and possibly stay here.

Thank you!

Is it true that BritRail passes can't be used from Ashford Intl. to St. Pancras on fast trains after March 2010?>

Jog - good question that i have not heard - i will research it and get back. Currently they can be used without formality i understand - thanks for the heads up.

Pilates -will be happy to elaborate -next post today after i put some notes together.

Pilates - i would just take the train from Edinburgh to Inverness - a nice enough scenic ride that is only about 3.5 hours all told and frequent enough direct trains.

And bat around Inverness area for how ever long - can take tours of Loch Ness, etc. Or spend the night here and then hop one of Britain's great scenic trains - the Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash ('Losh' i think) from where buses go over a bridge to the Isle of Skye - one of the most famous and interesting of Scotland's zillions of islands - you can take a bus anywhere on the island - like to Portree, the island's main town - but i am not familiar much with the Isle of Skye to advice on where to go but i think you cannot go wrong - there are B&Bs everywhere it seemed from the bus i took to Armadale Bay, to hop a ferry to Maillag, from where the really scenic West Higlands railway heads via Ft William to Glasgow.
Armadale and Armadale Bay looked like a neat place to stay and you could easily get there by mid-afternoon. There is a castle there and just a verdant coastal area - i did not stay there but took the ferry to Maillag the same day - just using the Isle of Skye route to connect from one scenic rail line - the Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash line to another - the Maillag to Fort William to Glasgow one.

AND NOW BACK TO A POSSIBLE BRITRAIL PASS TRIP

Continuing from way above - as it ties in with Pilates trip perhaps


To recap the first part that i talked about in some detail went from London
to York
to Edinburgh (with several possible stops and detours en route)
then via Inverness to the scenic Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash line -
then over to the Isle of Skye by bus over the bridge
then down thru Skye by bus to the ferry to Maillag
to catch the awesomely scenic West Highlands train via Fort William and the Rannoch Moor
to Glasgow

OK - Now to Continue going south i will suggest the following main stops on the West Coast Route to London and southern England/Wales (the itinerary comes up the East Coast Route via York and Newcastle to Edinburgh)

The Lake District - the fabled Lake District of writers, artists, speed boat records and Beatrice Potter

to Chester

into North Wales

to Bath

to Shrewsbury

to Salisbury

to London

More on these coming up!

And as always questions are always welcomed - even if not germaine to current topic - really!

Thank you for the sample itinerary!

thanks to you too!

PICKING UP THE SAMPLE ITINERARY FROM SCOTLAND DOWN THE WEST COAST TO:

THE LAKE DISTRICT - Oh yeh, the fabled Lake District, haunt of poets and artists - Wordsworth's Rydall Mount and Beatrice Potter's Cottage are top attractions but there is so so many varied things to do here - boat rides, hikes of all degrees of difficulty and neat - open-top double-decker buses that circulate constantly to pass by most all major sights - hop on hop off all day long.
Anyway a few days in the Lake District will be a highlight of any British rail trip.
And coming from Scotland the Lake District is an easy stop via the West Coast mainline from Glasgow to London

Coming from the West Highlands rail line you end up in Glasgow - kind of a unique and really neat city with a mixture of great Victorian architecture and vast parks mixed in with industrial detritus - not for everyone i guess but worth a look and IMO a stop over - but you can easily transit Glasgow and in a few hours end up in the Lake District - in Windermere - the railhead for the L District and a great base for rail travelers - the hop on hop off buses will take you from it all over the LDistrict - and Windermere oozes those neat stone cottages that are now cozy B&Bs - several being right by the train station.

NEXT SOUTH TO BLACKPOOL - Britain's primo seaside resort and a totally unique place in all of Europe IMO - not for everyone but something for everyone IMO.

Home page for the Lake District National Park Authority. Read how we keep this corner of England special, planning advice, visitor information and more.
www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/

The English Lake District at a Glance - A Quick Guide to England's ...
A quick guide to England's Lake District National Park, site of England's highest mountain, England's biggest lake and England's deepest lake.
gouk.about.com/od/englandtravel/p/lakedistguide.htm

Before railing south to Blackpool or Bath or North Wales let's look at how you can use the Lake District and Windermere as a base - not only from which to hop to the scintillating sights in the LDistrict itself but to another nearby sight of great renown - Hadrian's Wall - up next - by train from Windermere to the best of Hadrian's Wall - an easy enough day trip.

HADRIAN'S WALL
From Windermere you can easily day trip by train to fabled Hadrian's Wall - built at the northernmost part of Roman Britain to help defend Roman Britain from attacks from the north. Though much of the wall has disappeared there are enough restored stretches that makes this an interesting experience - as well as some restored forts.
From Windermere you take the train back to the mainline at Preston, then a train north to Carlisle, from where you can take the sideline to Newcastle, getting off at some small stations en route from which you can walk to some major sections of the wall and forts, etc.
But best of all for most is to hop on the Hadrian's Wall Bus that meanders along the wall and stops at major sights.
But anyway Hadrian's Wall can easily be included on a British Rail trip when going between Scotland and the southwest.

Hadrian's Wall Country | Hadrian's Wall Country Bus
The service has now finished for the 2009 season and will start again in 2010 ... 24/02/2010 17:22, Hadrian's Wall Country Bus Timetable 2010.pdf, 1587558 ...
www.hadrians-wall.org/page.aspx//.../Hadrian's-Wall-Country-Bus

Wall Bus Timetable 2010 - Hadrian's Wall Path - National ...
The Hadrian's Wall Country Bus AD122 offers a convenient and relaxing seasonal service to explore the World ... Hadrian's Wall Country Bus Timetable 2009 ...
www.nationaltrail.co.uk/hadrianswall/article.asp?PageId=3

FREE DAY WITH BRITRAIL PASSES

Every once in a while BritRail trots out get an extra day free if you buy your pass within a certain time frame - and if you are buying a pass anyway say for the summer why not get the extra day free -if you can use it of course.
So a 3-day flexipass becomes a 4-day for the same price, etc.
I do not as yet have the full details - date by which you have to buy, etc. Check out www.budgeteuropetravel.com as on their home page they usually highlight any such specials - or call Byron there - i've bought passes from him for years and he knows everything IMO

This info was great. I was thinking of flying open jaw to London and then make our way up to Scotland by train and fly home to NY from there. On a one way trip ( three weeks ) which train route sites would suggest.My husband and I travel light, love art, like off the beaten path stuff, music, architecture and nature.

Please pardon me if my questions have already been asked and answered in this overwhelming thread, but upon cursory glance, I have not been able to find the information that I am seeking.

My family and I (husband, child #1- 16 years old, child #2 - 13 years old, and myself) plan to spend a week in London and 5 days in Moreton-in-Marsh and Bath. We are going to travel by train. I have checked several different sites, including BritRail, Rick Steves, National Railroad, and First Great Western Rail, for information and options. I have concluded it doesn't make sense to buy a Family Pass (discount pass) because it covers only one of my children, and I would have to buy a Youth Pass (discount pass) for my 16 year old daughter. What is confusing to me is when I booked a hotel in Bath, the proprietor told me that I should check the First Great Western site three months to the day I plan on traveling for the best fares. I have not been able to find that in writing anywhere. Is it a two-month advance purchase policy for the best fares? I have noticed the huge differences in fares for the same routes, based on when the tickets are purchased. FYI, the only rail trips we plan on making are as follows: London to Moreton-in-Marsh, Moreton-in-Marsh to Oxford and back, Moreton-in-Marsh to Bath and Bath to Heathrow. Except for the Moreton-in-Marsh to Bath trip, all of these trips can take place after 10 a.m. (non peak times).

Do you think it would be better to purchase a Family Pass (discount pass) and a Youth Pass (discount pass)in order to give us more flexibility in our intinerary? Do tickets still need to be purchased way in advance to take advantage of the lower fares if passes are held? Because of the short distances we are traveling, I would think BritRail passes allowing free travel would be a waste of money.

I am still not used to the current rail system in place in Britain. I used to work down the hall from the BritRail offices on Madison Avenue in NY many years ago (and my sister actually was employed by them), so I am living in a time warp and cannot fathom this new decentralized set-up.

Thank you.

freberta - it is my understanding that it's 3 to the day when those tickets come on - but i have no real experience investigating that - but you will find on your trips various fares - check www.nationalrail.co.uk as it represents all train franchises and there may be competing services sometimes on the same rail line.

Anyway check the various Off-Peak tickets - those bought 7 days in advance, etc and even discounted and slightly restricted ones bought on the day of travel.

As Britain has about 30 separate independent rail franchises (companies) they may have differing time limits, fares, etc.

Off-hand i suspect that even if you do not get the lowest fare that comes on 3-months out on your journeys those fares would not be much lower than ones say that can be bought the day before or 7 days, etc.

No a BritRail Pass or even a BritRail England pass would be too much for what you are doing but you may investigate the Days Out of London Railpass that would cover all your travels and allow you to freely just hop on any train anytime - if desiring flexibility then it can be a great deal - check the full fare for Bath to London and you can see how really pricey fully flexible tickets can be - tickets that let you just hop on any train. The Days Out of London Pass also gives you a return trip on Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted Airport Express trains - outside of the validity of the pass itself.

But you can price out the discounted (and restricted) ticket prices now - they will rarely change much before your travels and see what is best.

Palenque, Thank you. I will start playing around on the various websites, putting in different dates and times to see when I might be able to get the best fares. And I will look into the The Days Out of London Pass. Now that we have finally purchased air tickets (today), I have firm dates and know exactly when we'll be needing those tickets. Again, thanks.

OK - I just did some comparison shopping, and I'm having a really hard time understanding the system. I first went on the National Rail website and found fares for 3 adults and 1 child from London to Moreton-in-Marsh leaving on a randomly selected day in May during mid-morning. The fare for the four of us was 53.80 pounds. Then I went to the First Great Western website and put in the same exact information (same date, departure time, etc), and the fare was 94.15 pounds. In fact, after getting the fares on the National Rail site, I was directed to the First Great Western site for payment, but, of course, I was not actually buying the tickets. Why the huge difference in fares -- in both cases I asked for the cheapest fares for that particular train.

Thanks.

milliebest - i will respond to your post Monday

freberta - ditto to you - i will take a look at fares

gotta run to catch my train!

Thanks. Have a good time wherever you are off to!

Evening all.I need your help please because i find the britrail website so confusing.Im from Greece and flying to London next month and i want to travel by train up to Newcastle and Middlesbrough, travel around these areas for 3 days and then come back to London were i indend to stay another 3 days traveling inside London.From what i saw a consecutive 3 day pass for the trains outside London suits me plus a london pass for the London days.I have some questions that need answering please:
1.Do i need to buy the passes 3 months in advance as i saw somewhere?
2.Do they post passes abroad or you pick them up from somewhere inside the UK?
3.Can i use them from Heathrow Airport right after i land?
4. Do you need to book a seat in a train in advance or you just jump on to one?

Palenque

Any news on extra payment on BritRail pass from Ashford Intl. to St Pancras on fast trains (Southern)? I already have the pass. Have already planned my trip and am well up on the price of the pass, so paying a small supplement wouldn't hurt I suppose.

Jog - thanks for jogging my mind about that Q re passes and the Kent Sprinters or whatever they call those new high-speed trains running over the line to the Chunnel. You could call Byron at BudgetEurope - 800-441-2387 as that is who i am going to call - IME if he don't know it he will find out.

vas290 - back later with some advice for you as well to millie and freberta

1.Do i need to buy the passes 3 months in advance as i saw somewhere?
2.Do they post passes abroad or you pick them up from somewhere inside the UK?
3.Can i use them from Heathrow Airport right after i land?
4. Do you need to book a seat in a train in advance or you just jump on to one?

1- No you should be able to buy them from any travel agent in Australia or RailEurope Australia - not sold at any British train station to my knowledge - but one reason to buy now or before the end of April is that if you buy by then you get an extra day free - thus your 3-cons day pass becomes a 4-consecutive day pass - maybe do a day trip from London to Windsor, etc with the 4th day
IMO The efficacy of the London Pass is hard to judge but that for the typical traveler it includes more than they will ever do thus i would advise against it unless you know you will do all the things it covers. For transport in London the Oyster Card IMO is a brainless choice you should buy as soon as you land in London

2- To my knowledge you pass must be posted to you - you can buy these in Australia from RailEurope, which does have an office in Australia and sells BritRail Passes (you really want a BritEngland Pass since you are traveling only in England.

Back later with 3 and 4 answers - gotta get on my train!

3. Can i use them from Heathrow Airport right after i land?
Yes valid on every regular passenger train in Britain - regardless of which of about 28 or so independent rail franchise, due to privitzation of old British Rail, runs the train - including Heathrow (and Gatwick) Expresses - but you must first validate your pass at the ticket window for the 3-day period, in your case, after that you just hop on any train anytime - the conductor will just glance at your pass, usually.

4. Do you need to book a seat in a train in advance or you just jump on to one?
No trains in Britain TMK require seat reservations but IME they are advised on any long-distance standard class (2nd cl) train as these IME can be awfully crowded with most of the seat reserved - seat reservations IME are often free up until the evening before but this varies from line to line i suppose. But, you can always board the train regardless of whether you can find an empty seat or not.
I always have a first-class pass in Britain because there is IMO and IME a world of difference between the classes - and in 40 years of BritRail Passing thru Britain i have never ever not seen an empty seat in first class and usually many of them - i can put my luggage on a seat next to my typically - in standard class you may have to search for room in the overhead racks - so if this is a holiday i advise paying extra for first class. Strongly advise - 2nd class seats are also IME rather cramped, compared to Continental trains at least, because i think British train bogeys (cars) are a tad narrower than those on the Continent due to viaduct clearances being narrower - anyway if someone is tall or heavy then first class is even more better for them.
Really in the U.K. i find 2nd class trains about like Greyhound buses and first class (each long-distance train will have both) nicer than any i've seen on the Continent. To me this symbolizes the ballyhooed British class distinctions. Indeed i do feel like the Raj riding in first class.

Travelling from Australia to UK in June/July and planning to use UK rail--thanks for all tips on this blog- excellent!.
I see nothing mentioned about rail toilets--what are they like? Both on train and on station. As a 'senior' couple it's quite important for us, if you see what I mean!

Another question-- what are people's experiaences of having to change a (reduced rate-special) ticket to another day?

Boots - a quick reply to your last question - many of the reduced rate tickets simply cannot be changed - some of the more expensive reduced rate tickets may possibly be changed - again you are dealing with about 28 different rail franchises who set various policies - be sure to scour www.nationalrail.co.uk for the explicit fare conditions - if they can be changed i think there would have to be seats available in your fare category to do so - each level has a set number of seats at that fare. I do not have experience much with changing discounted fares because i always have a pass. You may want to make a separate post on Fodor's as there are some British folks who would know the answer but who are not reading this thread.

I will be back to answer or try to answer all the Qs of the folks above, as promised. For now i gotta hop on my train.

4. Do you need to book a seat in a train in advance or you just jump on to one?>

To add a bit to the response i gave above - yes i know of no train - day train at least that you cannot just jump on - (excepting Eurostar trains going to the Chunnel, which are not really part of the British rail system)

before plopping down in any ole empty seat be sure to peruse the little cards that may be sticking out of a slot on the top of the seat - the reservation marker indicating that that seat may be reserved and it will say between which stations the seat will be reserved - say down the line a bit. So if you just blindly sit down in it you may be roosted later by the passenger boarding with that exact seat reserved.

If there are no reservation stubs sticking out of the top of the seat then that seat is unreserved and up for first grabs.

And some reservation stubs may indicate a reservation between two stations already passed by - the person who reserved it has already got off the train and the seat is thus unreserved.

Sp peruse the reservation cards before sitting down. In second class i have often seen most of the seats in cars with reservation cards in them so in second class on long distance trains i do advise making a reservation even if you have a pass. In first class as said i have never seen not several empty unreserved seats.

I see nothing mentioned about rail toilets--what are they like? Both on train and on station. As a 'senior' couple it's quite important for us, if you see what I mean!>

Well IMO Britain has always had the finest public toilets in Europe and also usually free, unlike on the Continent.

And trains are no exception - especially long-distance trains where WCs are larger and modern and most importantly, spic and span clean. This is quite unlike the Continent where WCs on trains are often negelcted and can be rathe foul place - especially on overnight trains - oh the horror at times in those WCs!

And unlike many French trains where the toilet is simply a conduit to a whole that drops urine and feces right to the tracks - British ones are self-contained - so there it does not seem you are simply defecating right onto the tracks.

Anyway clean - nice TP always there -put angst to rest about that. At least on long-distance trains - commuter trains often don't have WCs or they may have a few that are hard to get to.

Thank you for that-- we are reassured!

milliebest
I was thinking of flying open jaw to London and then make our way up to Scotland by train and fly home to NY from there. On a one way trip ( three weeks ) which train route sites would suggest. My husband and I travel light, love art, like off the beaten path stuff, music, architecture and nature.>

Well you have two basic routes London to Scotland - the East Coast mainline via York, Newcastle, Durham to Edinburgh or the West Coast route via Crewe, Manchester, Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Hard to recommend one route over the other. First i will recap what i wrote in the above zillions of posts about the East Coast mainline

York is the first natural breaking of journey place - not only one of Britain's finest old cities - indeed still mainly walled and doing the wall walk is one must - but also the York Minster is one of the finest cathedrals anywhere.

And with York as a base you can easily day trip to places like Haworth - hometown of the Bronte sisters and smack up in the famous moor they often wrote about. It's a small but neat old stone-built village - you go via Leeds - home to the British Museum's highly touted Armories museum.

Or from York nearby is Harrogate, one of Britain's old spa towns, on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales

Or to seaside Whitby - with its famous castle. Or to Fountains Abbey - lots of nice things depending on your interests.

Durham is another nice stop - serene cathedral - nice old town. And as said before the Borders Abbeys like Melrose, Jedburgh, etc. are also possible if you stay at Berwick-on-Tweed - Berwick being of especial interest to military historians- several Victorian-era fortresses overlook the sea.

OK -Next I'll review the West Coast mainline - suggesting Chester as your first stop en route to Scotland - and a side trip from there to North Wales.

Next I'll review the West Coast mainline - suggesting Chester as your first stop en route to Scotland - and a side trip from there to North Wales.>

Ok -London to Bath - one of the very nicest towns in Britain - home to the recently rehabbed Roman Baths but to me those are only a footnote to the splendid Georgian architecture that permeates this former gathering place of the rich and famous - such as the dashing Beau Nash who built some of the most interesting edifices- like the Sham Castle - a sham of a castle.

then up to Shrewsbury to Chester - Shrewsbury is a neat old town as is Chester - both are two of the prettiest towns in England.

From Chester you can use it as a base to explore North Wales - an easy train ride to Conwy - fine old walled town and you can take a train up a sweet river valley to swell places like Betws y Coed

or you could from Chester easily day trip to Mount Snowdon, Caernaferon (sp?) Castle or Beaumarais Castle - two of the castles of your dreams as well.

From Chester it is a short shop to the fabled Lake District and then onto Scotland - i have described above possibilities from Lake District- like Hadrian's Wall,etc.

Update on BritRail Free Day Promotion - i talked about above but did not have all the details. But if you buy your pass before May 1, 2010 then yes you get an extra day free - applies to all BritRail passes except London Plus; Brit-Ireland pass and Scottish passes.
As passes must only be validated within 6 months of issuance this means you could validate the pass as late as Oct 30, 2010 and then use it for its validity period - two months on flexipasses.
And this promo has been popping up periodically in recent years - one reason not to buy a full-price BritRail Pass really far in advance as if the extra day deal subsequently appears it would not apply to passes already bought.

Hi Palenque: I am considering the Caledonian sleeper from London to Inverness. We arrive LHR around 4 pm from California. We're flying business. Would it be too much stress, fatigue to try to catch that train the first night? We will be buying an 8 day (actually 9 day thanks to your tip) flexi pass. If you click on my name you'll see my thread "Britain without a car" to give you a better idea of our plans.

I welcome all opinions. Thank you.

Well the train i believe leaves about 9:15pm (Paddington i believe - where the Heathrow Express comes in) so after getting to Paddington you will not have too much time to have to wait - probably could board hour earlier or so IME - so IMO if you are going to sleep early anyway and if you are reasonably sound sleepers as night trains inevitably have some noise from tracks, etc - it seems a perfect fit and you save a night's hotel costs. Note - i would not use the pass to get to Heathrow or only if you will not need all nine days but the Heathrow Express OTOH also costs about 25 pounds or so i believe so you may want to.
I have been really busy with other matters recently but will click on your name and see what you are up to!

Wrong - the trouble with guessing is that you can end up giving out totally spurious advice. The Caledonian Sleeper goes from London Euston not Paddington, so you'd have to factor in a taxi across London between the 2 stations. http://www.scotrail.co.uk/caledoniansleeper/index.html

If it were me, I'd want a hot shower and a change of clothes after a long flight. Maybe you can access a business class lounge on arrival because, otherwise, the sleeper has only tiny washbasins and no showers - not a very appealling prospect IMO. Don't expect to sleep well either: the ride is noisy and bumpy. I did it once and the novelty value wears off somewhere around midnight at Crewe station.

Unfortunately you can't fly direct from LHR to INV, but you could consider transiting to LGW where there are direct flights to INV: at least you'd get to a hotel by the end of the day.

Gordon R - i have taken the Caledonia Sleepers several times and yes from Euston - i had a brain fart and said Paddington - the reason i said i thought it still left from Paddington (which i should have said Euston) is that there always could be a change of stations -like to Kings Cross from where many Scottish trains leave from

The more I look at this, and the more opinions I receive, the more I think I am nuts for even thinking about trying to do so much in one 48 hour period. It will much more wise to ease into our vacation. Thanks for the input!!!

Hi All,

Thanks for all the tips in previous discussion, I have decided to buy BritRail first class pass for 8 days (9 days due to free day promo). I will be flying to London from India in last week of May.

However, while trying to buy the pass online, I find 2 options between "BritRail Consecutive Pass" and "BritRail Euro Consecutive Pass". The latter is cheaper by almost 100 euros. However, I am unable to find the difference between the 2 so far anywhere.

Does any body knows the difference and can explain?

Thanks,
Vipul

I found the difference right after posting the above question. I had been searching everywhere, but this has a pop up detail that ocmes when point to it.

BritRail Euro is for Europians only, so I do not qualify.

Though I do have few more question:

1. I understand that BritRail pass does not cover London. Should I go for London Plus pass or London Visitor Travel Card or something else?
2. Should I take the offered insurance for the BritRail pass.
3. I plan to visit Scotland, London & Wales. Do I need any other pass/ticket for local travel within Scotland/Wales?
4. Do these passes cover Bus travel as well?
5. Can I use these pass for traveling from Hethrow airport to London?

Thanks,
Vipul

However, while trying to buy the pass online, I find 2 options between "BritRail Consecutive Pass" and "BritRail Euro Consecutive Pass". The latter is cheaper by almost 100 euros. However, I am unable to find the difference between the 2 so far anywhere.

Does any body knows the difference and can explain?>

The problem with ordering online and one reason i recommend talking to an agent who is knowledgeable and who could answer- like Byron at BETS (800-441-2387) who i order passes from for years and marvel at his expertise and helpfulness. But maybe you are from India and not the U.S. so have to rely only online.

And thanks for clarifying something i did not know - about the BrirRail Euro - they always called BritRail Passes sold in Europe BritRail Passes, just like in the States - i would be curious enough to check to see whether pricing is the same after concersion, etc. It is only residents of the U.K. who are not eligible to use BritRail Passes - though every BritRail Pass can invite a local UK resident to ride along free and thus have the same benefits as the people buying the pass.

Vipul - i will try to answer each question shortly.

. I understand that BritRail pass does not cover London. Should I go for London Plus pass or London Visitor Travel Card or something else?

Vipul - how long will you be in London for?

Whilst the BritRail pass covers national rail lines that go thru London - the Gatwick Airport to several London stations or the Heathrow Express to Paddington it does not cover any of the Tube lines or, of course buses.

Thus the options you mention

The London Plus Pass would be good only if taking two or more longish day trips from London but covers nothing in London except for the national rail lines BritRail covers and if you have a BritRail Pass i'd use that for any long day trips, say to Bath or Stratford.

Forget about London Plus

As for TravelCards - one reason you may want to go to a rail station in London - there are several like Victoria, Kings Cross, Paddington and right in the heart of tourist London, Charring Cross - to buy your daily TravelCard is that with a paper TravelCard issued by rail stations (not Tube stations) you can get a 2 for 1 entry at many major sights, reaping huge savings.

National Rail Enquiries - 2FOR1 London Attractions
Discover all the exciting things London has to offer and enjoy big savings when you go to the capital by train! There are over 100 fantastic 2FOR1 offers at ...
www.nationalrail.co.uk/times.../two-for-one-london.html -

Now the London Visitor Travel Card would not give any 2 for 1 and if the 2 for 1 does not interest you then i would just do the no-brainer thing and get an Oyster Card, which no matter what you ride gives you the absolute lowest cost (like 1.5 pounds or so for a single Tube ride vs 4 pounds or so if you just buy a single ticket without using the Oyster Card. And if you travel enough in one day (or week) using the Oyster Card then when you reach the TravelCard level it caps it at that price. This is why i say brainless decision - get an Oyster Card, which has been talked about on Fodor's ad nauseum - so search the box for Oyster Card for tons of posts.

So i would forget about the London Visitors TravelCard - basically the same as TravelCards you buy at Tube stations except there are no restrictions on time of travel, i believe - just pay the 5 pound deposit or so for the Oyster Card, which you then just wand over the Oyster shell looking device at the entrance to the Tube (or bus)and it debits the cost - you do have to put some cash on it of course or it will not work. when leaving you get the deposit back (5 quid i think but not sure currently) or keep it for your next London trip - or give it to someone else, etc.

"...if you have a BritRail Pass i'd use that for any long day trips, say to Bath or Stratford."

Hi pal: The day we arrive we are heading direct to Bath. I was going to take the bus, as everyone seems to agree that it's the best way to get to Bath. However we will be buying the Britrail pass with the free day (9 days total**). I was wondering if it would be best for us to use one of the days from the pass and catch the LHR to Paddington and then get the train to Bath-instead of taking the bus. Do you or (anyone else)have an opinion?

** I can't seem to find the link which was selling the BritRail passes with an extra free day. I was just on Britrail.com and there was no mention of the extra free day. I was sure it said that this special was going to last through the end of April. Can you please paste the link if you have it? Thanks very much!!

Oops! Re: the needed link, as Rose Ann Rosanna Danna would say, "Never mind". I went through the motions of buying the flexipass and see that the order form eventually includes the extra day promotion.

Palenque,

Thanks for detailed information.

I am planning to spend 2.5 days in London (fly back in the evening of 3rd day). Right now, I am thinking about going with Landon travel card, so that I can get 2FOR1 entry offers for tourist places. However, the process to get them is not very clear to me. Does it require me to print all the possible vouchers before I start on my journey (I will not have access to a printer once I am in UK).

At a high level, my itinerary is:

* Fly into LHR airport early morning
* Take a train to Scotland and spend 3 days there.
* Go to England and spend 3 days
* Go to London on 3rd day, fly back.

I am yet to work out the details of what to do in Scotland & England. It is not clear to whether the BritRail pass is useful for local travel within Scotland or England conuntry side. And if it is valid in the lcoal trains and/or bus there.

Also, it appears that I may have to go for 8 days pass, though I will not be able to use it fully.

Thanks & Regards,
Vipul

Hi Palenque,

In one of the posts you have mentioned the scenic routes in scotland (namely Glasgow to Mallaig) and some other scenic routes. However, you haven't explicitly mentioned whether that is covered by BritRail passes.

Can you please clarify that?

Thanks a ton for your your help.
Regards,
Vipul

In one of the posts you have mentioned the scenic routes in scotland (namely Glasgow to Mallaig) and some other scenic routes. However, you haven't explicitly mentioned whether that is covered by BritRail passes.>

Yes the two Highlands lines i mentioned - Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash (from where buses go to Isle of Skye) and from Maillag (where boats bring you back from Isle of Skye) to Fort William and Glasgow via the AWESOME desolate Rannloch Moor (sp?) are indeed fully covered by a BritRail Pass - they are normal trains - not specialty tourist trains.

* I can't seem to find the link which was selling the BritRail passes with an extra free day. I was just on Britrail.com and there was no mention of the extra free day. I was sure it said that this special was going to last through the end of April. Can you please paste the link if you have it? Thanks very much>

Well you found it but for others reading in the future keep in mind that the BritRail folks seem to do this periodically - to lock in sales and gather money in advance of the high season i guess - say in case London is victim of a terrorist attack and travel to Britain dries up - you can refund the pass but you lose 20% or so so you should be sure of using the pass within six months of issue -activating it at the time of your choosing in Britain. And since you only need the pass issued by the end of April (this year) i see no reason to buy it until shortly before then -because in life things pop up and if you break your leg next week you will be out the 20% refund fee (could be 15%) -but any way in the future to see if BritRail is offering an extra day or whatever the deal is go to www.budgeteuropetravel.com as they always highlight any specials (Eurailpasses at times offer similar deals)-that's how i ound out about this year's deal-and this outlet, from which i have bought passes for years, you can talk to someone who is IME a real expert who has ridden UK trains for years, etc. Passes have to be sold at a price that cannot vary but mailing fees can be tacked on - so check sources about that too- many have none though others like RickSteves.com i think charge about $20.

. Should I take the offered insurance for the BritRail pass.>

Vipul- this is relevant to the above discussion about refunds for unusued passes - the insurance will i believe cover the penalty but only if you produce documentation - usually from a doctor, etc.

Once you activate your pass in the UK it is no longer refundable in any case- even terrorists attacks or strikes, etc. But the insurance program will cover you for a refund of the unused portion of the pass if you have medical problems, have your pass stolen or lose it, etc.

Whether or not i recommend it would vary as to what the pass costs- a party pass worth $1,000 costs the same insurance as a $200 pass. Personally i do not get the coverage as in 40 years of rail travel in Europe and Britain i have never come close to losing my pass - because it is ALWAYS in my secure under the belt money belt - and Britain seems not to have the street pickpockets that are rife in some Continental tourist meccas.

I will try to get the wording of the insurance coverage to better examine it - i am rephrasing what it was a few years ago.

First, I would like to thank you for your kind help. You are so patient with those of us who are totally confused.Since I last posted on your thread, I turned our trip around and we are beginning to make definite plans.We are flying from NY to Glasgow on August 17th and then we will make our way by train to London where we will fly to NY on Sept. 8th. The trains we will take so far are Glasgow to Inverness and Inverness to Edinburgh.(Would those two trips be better just buying tickets there or using a Brit Rail Pass. My husband and I are both over 65.) From there we want to make our way into Wales, Cotswolds, Bath and London. First is it crazy to go from Edinburgh to York to Wales? I am translating your previous trip suggestions north into a southern direction. With our time schedule, do you have any suggestions?

milliebest-thanks for your nice comments - i will try to answer each Q but for now i have a train to catch!

Be back soon!

The trains we will take so far are Glasgow to Inverness and Inverness to Edinburgh.(Would those two trips be better just buying tickets there or using a Brit Rail Pass. My husband and I are both over 65.)>

If you are buying a pass then i think it would be better to use it on those trips as well - mainly because the longer the pass the cheaper per day it is - especially if you can fit it all into say an 8-consecutive day pass or not look at the flexipass, good for X number of days of unlimited rail travel in a two-month period.

To see what the various fares are for travel to/from Inverness go to www.nationalrail.co.uk - if you want to lock yourself in far in advance and not be able to change or refund your ticket usually then that may be the way to go - fares are not available perhaps for August but just pick an earlier date to see the myriad of varying fares - with varying conditions. For fully flexible just show up and hop on fares those are typically really expensive so if flexibility is a key then the pass for sure.

You mention you are seniors and as i in any case highly recommend first-class travel in British trains - a world of difference between the classes - to me like a Greyhound bus in 2nd class but first class is by far the plushest in all of Europe. Always empty seats - larger seats and fewer seats in same space and on many long-distance trains gratis coffee, tea and snacks - take Virgin trains along the West Coast route from Scotland and you'll get a veritable meal - always more food coming for free it seems (not promised in conditions of pass however) - and the point is that Seniors 60 and over get a nice reduction on BritRail Passes in first class (none in 2nd however) so it may not cost that much more to do a first-class pass for seniors.
And there seem to be two classes of first-class on many long-distance trains in Britain - the Gold Class and a non-Gold class - www.nationalrail.co.uk has discounts in first class too but IME these are often in special first-class cars not as plush as the Gold Zone and typically are chock full with the discounted tickets. The pass allows for seating in the Gold first-class cars that in all my decades of railing in Britain i have rarely seen more than say half-full - so nice to put your bags down in an empty seat next to you, etc.

Ah for York to Wales -i will have to investigate that. In Britain you never know about cross-country travel - the faster lines radiate out from London but their are some flummoxing routings that zigzag around so there may be a decent way. time-wise to go from York to Wales. It intrigues me to investigate that.

(If you are talking about going Edinburg-York-Wales in one day that may be a long day -depending on the York to Wales trains.

Q- Where in Wales - if you know - i am partial to North Wales where in a compact area there is a plethora of great things to see and do - South Wales is fine too but the train routing may be way different.

Cheers- got get on my train!

OK York to anywhere in Wales seems to take at best 4 1/2 hrs by train - but if you have the desire to see Stratford (and the fantastic Warwick Castle near it) that would be about half-way i think - thinking you are pondering an Edinburg-York-Wales journey all in one day.
Going down the East Coast line south makes a more scenic journey IMO than going down the West Coast line via Carlisle - York is a fantastic town - good for ambling along so it would make a great overnight - or you could easily do York and go onto say Stratford/Warwick.
Cross-country train travel is typically slow and you have to change at least one or twice usually to Wales from York it seems.
Cheers

When I play on the national train site, what do I put in for Edinburgh -Edinburgh Park or Waverly? It doesn't let me just put in Edinburgh.

ttt

Edinburgh Waverly, the main station.

Edinburgh Park station is a minor station.

Thanks.

If I were to go from York to Wales, could you suggest a reasonable route even if it involved an overnight? I have to go west at some point because I definitely want to do the Cotswolds and Bath.

Palenque,
Certainly appreciate your generosity in sharing your knowledge with all of us fodorites.
My question: four adults will be taking the train from Edinburgh to York in July. A few days later we will continue to London. 3 of us are 60+. I notice fares for 33.50 GBP if bought now for the Edi/York portion. Is there a better site to book online with? Can I expect lower fares on a certain line?
Pardon me if you've answered these already, I have tried looking through other posts.
Thank you so much for your tips!

Andeesue again... I just checked and see train tickets are available today from 9 July and earlier, so will wait until my exact date is listed for the best price. Still will appreciate info inquired above.
Many thanks.

milliebest - i will try to give you some suggestions soon

and Andeesue - yes there is another sight other than www.nationalrail.co.uk - the one run by the train franchise that runs most of the trains over the East Coast Rail line, formerly the franchise of Great North Eastern trains (think i got the name right) - i'll see if i can get the exact site as others have said they sometimes have better fares.

Andeesue - this is another site comparable to www.nationalrail.co.uk but run by the train franchise that does much of the East Coast trains London-York-Scotland - i believe

National Express // Buy Cheap Coach Travel, Train Fares, Bus ...
National Express offer a wide range of cheap coach travel & train fares to over 180 UK destinations, with cheap local bus fares in selected areas. www.nationalexpress.com/

milliebest- Looking at the routing of trains between York and Wales there ain't much in between the average tourist would find to warrant an overnight stop, or even a short stop for that matter IMO

But i note that Chester, a wondrous city - one of the quaintest and cutest in England - is three hours by train from York. Not only a great sight in its own right but is also a good base from which to hop to North Wales - to places like Conwy, Mt Snowdon, Caernarferon (sp?) Castle, etc.

But in between York and Wales you will slice thru a lot of industrial detritus from an area that launched the Industrial Revolution and is still industrialized, esp along the train line.

I originally mentioned Stratford being on the route but i was way off - it is not.

Thank you for the sites. I bought 12 weeks out when the fare had gone down, then today I noticed it went down even farther. I will wait a bit more time for the next part of the trip before I book.

andeesue - thank you - and yes the early bird does get the worm in these matters - folks who naively just walk up and buy tickets on day of travel could literally pay many times more!

Well, actually, the price was even cheaper a few days after I bought tickets when they were released at what I thought would be the lowest price. Now, my next segment's available, but the cheap fares are for noon and later and I'd save 12 GBP, but I'd rather have the extra two hours earlier in London. I may just wait a day or two and see if those fares come down like the Edinburgh-York ones did.

Andeesue - there is yet one more site to search that i forgot to mention - www.thetrainline.com - similar to nationalrail.co.uk but another source to check - i do think they charge a 5 pound booking fee - or did.

Trying to wait for the best fare is a tough choice because sometimes the other fare may vanish IME and you may pay higher - but since you are so far out i would as this far out unlikely the allotment of lower-tiered price tickets would be exhausted - unless there is a football match, etc somewhere.

Your input is so appreciated, Palenque.

Patience paid off... the advance ticket fare was 22.50 the other day for York/London, but I decided to wait several days to see if the really cheap fares showed up as they had for my Edinburgh/York. They are now 11.25 (I could even have booked them for 10 with a discount on East Coast Trains, but couldn't get the right option for ticket pickup to work. I won't complain! Great fare! Lesson learned: once the fares are released, wait several days (though of course this may backfire

Andeesue - thanks for your edification of your process - i have learned that ticket prices can indeed come down!

Have a nice journey - if at all interested in trains stop by the National Rail Museum in York - it is right by the York station and free - old trains, royal trains, etc.

"The fully flexible train fare London to Holyhead is 120 pounds or about $190 or so in 2nd class"
Yes this is correct. But from anywhere in Britain you can buy 2nd class £30.50 to Dublin via Holyhead. You don't have to take the boat. I know it doesn't make sense, but there it is. And on many Virgin trains from Euston to Chester or Holyhead you can upgrade to first class if you want, I think it costs about a fiver. I should keep quiet about this in case someone from network rail decides to raise the price to Ireland.

Ricardo - yup though incongruities are always possible it seems. Thanks for the post!

MORE AND MORE 'QUIET' CARS

With mobile phones often in constant use it seems some train cars become rather noisy with all the chatter. And though i for one rather enjoy the insight into the often mundane things discussed - like what to bring home for dinner - for folks who like silence in their train car then look for the Quiet Cars - marked so and perhaps having a picture of a mobile phone with a red circle and line thru it.
If reserving seats you can request one in the quiet car - more and more Brits it seems are choosing quiet cars thus more of them are marked so.
Quiet cars however do not mean you cannot talk normally - just keep all noise down.

Yes, it's a nice idea, but in practice nobody takes much if any notice of these "quiet carriages". IME the average under-25 rail passenger is so fixated with his/her mobile/Ipod that they either don't comprehend the signs or - assume it can't possible apply to them and their mates. If you're game enough to challenge a bunch of lagered-up chavs with their mobiles pressed to their ear, then that's up to you, but not many would feel comfortable doing so.

PalenQ

I have been away and now I am trying to work on trains.
I am so frustrated because I need to go from York to Conwy or Llandudno junction on a Friday. Each time I put a Friday date into the journey planner, the Saturday schedule appears on the Journey Planner.

Oh, PalenQ, I am so sorry I figured it out!!!!!!!!!! Thanks anyway.

PalenQ
As I mentioned I just got back from being with grandchildren. To refresh - my husband and I are in our 60s, travel light, love art, things unusual and crazy and of course food. We are flying to Glasgow on August 17th and are returning to New York from London on Sept 8th. Most of the trip is planned. Now I must work on the specifics.

Glasgow ( 2 nights)
Train or bus to Inverness ?
Inverness (1 night)
Bus to Granton on Spey
Granton on Spey ( 2 nights)-Highland Games
Bus or train to Edinburgh?
Edinburgh (3 nights) Tickes for Tattoo
Bus or train to York.
York ( 2 nights)
Bus or train to Conwy?
Conwy ( 1 night)
( Trying to decide to go straight to Bath or visit somewhere else in Wales. Considered Machynlleth and CAT
Bus or train to Bath?
Bath ( 2 nights)
Bus or train to Moreton on Marsh?
Moreton on Marsh ( 2 nights)
Bus or train to London?

Home


Would love to fit Oxford in that schedule. Where would you put it?

I would love any suggestions. Point to point tickets, rail pass etc?

Thanks again for your help in advance.




Edinburgh ( 3 nights)

milliebest - i will give my best try to answer your queeries (and hopefully others will give their angles - more opinions the better IME)

and as i told you or others on another thread if 60 and over be sure to look at the Senior first-class Brit-Rail Pass - first-class is so so much more leisurely than in an oft IME very crowded standard (2nd) class.

Well gotta catch a train but will be back soon.

If you are staying in Moreton-on-Marsh then Oggsford would be a very short day trip from there and is also a short day trip from London.

Jog on Mar 15, 10 at 7:45pm
Palenque

Any news on extra payment on BritRail pass from Ashford Intl. to St Pancras on fast trains (Southern)? I already have the pass. Have already planned my trip and am well up on the price of the pass, so paying a small supplement wouldn't hurt I suppose.>

Jog - i am determined to find out as i still do not know - will call Byron at budgeteuropetravel.com as he will know - i was reading thru above posts when yours jogged my memory about your queery.

If you are still around and have come back and have first-hand info please post it! thanks.

Palenque,

I have been doing my homework and am about to make major decisions. If you are back and have a chance, I value your opinion tremendously.

Here are my findingsI am using L because I don't know how to do the pound sign)

1.) Glasgow : (Train to Inverness either L10:30 or L18:60 depending on time)


2.)Inverness: (Bus to Grantown on Spey (This has been a challenge to find the bus -Stagecoach The website doesn't work.)

3.)Grantown on Spey to Edinburgh (Bus or train to Edinburgh?)
Train is L10:30

4.)Edinburgh to York: L19

5.)York to Conwy : Train L49:30

6.)Conwy to Bath: L73.50

7.)Bath to Moreton in Marsh : L7

8.)Moreton in Marsh to London : L26.90

Would you suggest a three day senior Brit Rail for ( York to Conwy;Conwy to Bath and Moreton in Marsh to London) and just to web tickets for the others?

Thanks,

Mille

Well it would see to be - a 3-day flexipass would cost p.p. in 2nd cl $199 and in first - senior $249 (no senior rate on 2nd class passes)

so your three long day fares are about 150 pounds (me either can't make pound sign!) or about $225 at current exchange rates - would be about $25 cheaper in 2nd class in first class you'd pay about $25 more than the second class ticket fare but if you compared to first class tickets then you'd save a lot i think

i assume your fares are for second class

Personally if point to point for those three days cost 150 quid or $225 then i'd go for the $249 p.p. first class senior pass - on longer train rides there is much more of a difference between classes than on shorter trains like those in Scotland - long-distance trains have a great difference in classes - regional ones barely any difference many times.

As the 4th day on a BRail Flexipass is $50 in 2nd class and $55 in first you are smart to buy the others point to point as you have found out above.

the beauty of the pass again IMO is you can just get up head to the station and hop any train - often those unrestricted fares are absurdly high - making a pass a great deal if you desire flexibility.

Cheers.

.)York to Conwy - i like Conwy as a base (or Llandudno, a seaside resort a few miles away - there is so much to see and do within a short train and or bus ride - the lures of North Wales:

The Great Orme -Llandudno lies at the foot of it and you can see its summit from Conwy (Conwy is a fine fine walled ancient-looking town) - Caernarfon Castle - Mt Snowdon - Steam train ride to summit is one of most thrilling trains rides i've done - ditto for the walk down) - the Conwy Valley up to Ffestinog where a tiny steam train goes thru old mining country - neat places like Betws-y-Coed and Beaumarais Castle - a stunning castle on the coast - all a short day trip by train and or bus from Conwy - investigate the one day travel card for the area.

If in Conwy then try to go to Llandudno (ccllandudno kind of pronounced) and hop the antique tramway that goes up to the summit of the fabled Great Orme - a kind of huge rock sticking out into the North Sea - there are mountain goats up top and lots of sheep and terrific views for miles around - even to legendary Blackpool and its iconic Blackpool Tower far across the sea.

I actually hiked up along the course of the old tram so if a hiker it's not that hard a climb but steadily uphill.


he Great Orme in Llandudno North Wales
Describing the Orme and its history, archaeology, ecology, mining, shipwreck, flora and fauna including the long established herd of feral goats.
www.llandudno.com/orme.html

Great Orme - Aerial Cable Car - Tramway - Marine Drive
www.greatorme.org.uk/

Llandudno - Great Orme - The Summit Experience - North Wales UK
Later, much re-built as 'The Summit Hotel', it served as the 19th hole for the Great Orme Golf Club that closed in 1939. The site of the golf course is now ...
www.greatorme.org.uk/summit.html


Great Orme Tramway : The Cable Car of Wales
Jul 1, 2004 ... One of three systems in the world in which "cable cars" operate on city streets. The others are in San Francisco and Lisbon.
www.cable-car-guy.com/html/ccgreatorme.html

milliebest - i am taking the opportunity to expand on North Wales which was going to be the next stop on my sample Britain by Train itinerary embedded throughout my above posts.

I based in Llandudno and found it to my liking - a slightly fading seaside resort but also one that hops at night andon weekends as a night spot and shopping magnet.

Some will prefer the quiet of quiet as a church mouse Conwy - others may prefer a big of brashness that Llududno provides - they are only a few miles apart so anyone staying in one should also take a look at the other.

Conwy is though exceptional and the small town with old walls and castle of your dreams that many folks only dream about staying in but actually never do!

Visit Llandudno - The Official Website For Hotels, Guest Houses ...
Llandudno, the biggest and best loved seaside resort in Wales with its blue flag beaches, Victorian pier, theatre, ski Llandudno, cable car.

Where to stay - Request a Brochure - Events - Things to see and do
www.visitllandudno.org.uk/

Llandudno Conwy North Wales UK - Queen of North Wales Resorts
Tourist guide to Llandudno, its pier, promenade, town trail, marine drive, Great Orme, Victorian extravaganza and excursions.
www.greatorme.org.uk/

milliebest, I'm sure there probably is an easy way to do a £ sign on a US keyboard. But if you can't find it, copy this one (highlight, then Ctrl+C)& paste it into your comment (Ctrl+V)

I have had a visitor for the week but I will soon be getting back to my travel plans.

Thanks,

Millie

Thx Palenque - lots of useful info

Now seriously toying with flexipass + local bus for our trip

The highlight of North Wales to me was taking the steam train up Mount Snowdon, England's highest peak, and walking back down.

Snowdon Mountain Railway - A Majestic train journey to the Summit ...
Snowdon Mountain Railway - Snowdonia. One of the most spectacular days out in North Wales for Welsh holiday makers.
www.snowdonrailway.co.uk/

Times & Prices
Essential Information
Watch our video footage
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Contact
Shop & Cafe
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More results from snowdonrailway.co.uk »
Train times & prices for Snowdon Mountain Railway
Snowdon Mountain Railway - Snowdonia. One of the most spectacular days out in North ... During school holidays, or on fine weather days, the railway can be ...
www.snowdonrailway.co.uk/times_prices.php

Tweeking the Mt Snowdon Day

If you take the train up and down or walk up and or down (a one-way train ticket is just a bit less than a return ticket IME) back to Llanberis, where the bus from Caernarfon drops you off - then you can get on the bus and go back to Conwy/Lladudno a different way than which you came (always a goal of mine!)

--take the bus down the rugged Llanberis Pass and all the way to Betws-y-Coed and the lush Conwy Valley - at Betws-y-Coed you can catch the scenic Conwy Valley train (railpasses valid) back to Conwy and Llandudno via the bucolic scenic Conwy Valley.

I enjoyed walking around Betws-y-Coed oogling the stone buildings in a verdant park-like setting.

MORE ON MOUNT SNOWDON

If you are an avid rambler - British for hikers using the vast system of Public Footpaths - there are other ways to walk down from the Snowdon summit than then main beaten path along the train tracks.

And i decided to take a different route - aiming to end up at the youth hostel of Llanberis Pass to join the bus decribed in above post - bus to Betws-y-Coed.

So i looked at the map at the summit and took the trail that seemed to head to the pass, which you could see from the summit far below - along with two lakes where paths could be seen going by.

But somehow i missed the main trail i guess and ended up hopping from boulder to boulder with no trail in sight - just a cascade of boulders tumbling down to the lakes far below. It was slow going and constant fear of falling into crevices - finally however i reached the first lake and a broad path i followed to the youth hostel at the pass where the bus would stop. So if taking that route pay better attention than i did to staying on the proper trail.

Ok so tomorrow, in the cool of the morning, I am going to book train tickets. From what I see, I don't need a rail pass. What am I missing? Both Rick and budget Europe quote the 8 day sr. flex pass @$555 and 4 day @379 and 3 day @305.

These are point to point prices:
Glasgow to Inverness - £(Thank you Ricardo) 10:30
Aviemore (Grantown on Spey) to Edinburgh -£10:30
Edinburgh to York-£16:50
York to Conwy - £17
Conwy to Bath - £16
Bath to Moreton in Marsh - £6
Moreton in Marsh to London - £26.90

I know I will be taking my changes with second class but I am a New York City transit traveller! Does a Brit rail pass make any sense?

No to a pass if you do not require flexibility - i assume say the York to Conwy and Edinburgh to York tickets are online advance ones that are non-changeable non-refundable, etc. so i'd go with those and book them as early as possible. 2nd class will get you there, of course, but not nearly in the style of first class.

BACK TO NORTH WALES BASE IN A BRITISH RAIL TRIP

CONWY VALLEY to the FFESTINIOG RAILWAY

A sweet day trip from Conwy or Lladudno base by train is to take a ride of the Conwy Valley scenic rail line (BritRail Passes 100% valid) that meanders thru bucolic countryside to the start of the really famous and unique Ffestiniog Railway.

The following web site tells of the railway and neat places along it, like Betws-y-Coed:

Llandudno and The Conwy Valley - North Wales UK - Talycafn ...
The Conwy Valley Railway line follows the same route southwards to Roman Bridge from where the longest single track railway tunnel in the United Kingdom ...
www.greatorme.org.uk/conwyvalley.html

At the end of the Conwy line is the starting point of the Ffestiniog Railway - to be covered next.

Rheilffordd Ffestiniog Railway / Welsh Highland Railway (C)
This is the website of the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways - two unique narrow gauge railways (both operated by the Ffestiniog Railway Company) with ...
www.festrail.co.uk/

FFESTINIOG RAILWAY - A DIFFERENT CREATURE

One of the fabled 'Great Little Trains of Wales,' along with the Mt Snowdon Train, the Ffestiniog Railway was built not for tourist but to move slate from the gritty slate-mining town of Ffestiniog down to the sea, at Porthmadog's port.
The trains are made up of vintage passenger cars pulled by a sturdy industrial type engine.
What make the trip awesome IMO is seeing the huge slag heaps - remnants of Ffestiniog's heyday as a slate-mining center - the train winds first thru these slap heaps and old derelcit mines.
And Ffestiniog itself - grity gritty Ffestiniog to me was something out of the 1950s - people down at their heels - old decrepeit stores and pubs, etc. A time warp for sure.

Anyway check out the official site for more on what you will see on the trip down to Porthmadog.

Coming from Conwy the main line train ends at Porthmadog, where the narrow-gauge train line down to the sea begins.

THE SETTLE TO CARLISLE RAILWAY

Just copying this nicely written informative item about the fabled Settle to Carlisle Railway that was recently posted on another thread - the railway is an alternative to taking the more mainline West Coast Main Line when coming south out of Scotland or northern England - a sideline well worth ferreting out - and thanks to volunteers saved from the Beeching scrap heap of history.

The Settle to Carlisle Railway
Posted by: bellini on Jul 23, 10 a

There’s something very beguiling about railway journeys, especially one that has ‘Friends’ who campaigned to keep the line open when threatened with closure in 1981. The Settle to Carlisle railway is included in the illustrious company of ‘Great Railway Journeys of the World’. The 72 miles of railway between Settle and Carlisle pass through the glorious Yorkshire Dales. The most magnificent section is probably the Ribblehead Viaduct, all 24 arches of fantastic Victorian engineering. Once over the viaduct the train plunges into the long Blea Moor tunnel emerging on to Dentdale, a perfect example of a glaciated valley.

The Friends of the Settle-Carlisle railway have continued to work hard: eight stations have been reopened, the number of trains has increased, station buildings have been refurbished, platforms raised, disused signal boxes have been restored and Victorian style lamps installed. Members look after the flower beds at stations too and they have made a very good job at Appleby station where we stopped off for a few hours.

Dear PalenQ
Read quite a few of your posts with great interest. Will be travelling to UK in a weeks time. Had planned to get a BritRail pass. Could you please tell me how to get one. After I pay for it online how do I get the pass. Can it be collected on arrival in UK. Can the reservation of the trains be done from a station different from the departing station.