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We are now back from our tenth anniversary trip to Turkey.
We are glad we went...but I will never go to a Muslim country again.
We met nice people who went out of their way to be nice to us, and then we met some people who went out of their way to be True AH's either because I am
(a) An American or
(b) female or
(c) used a wheelchair and have leg braces so it is obvious that I am disabled
(d) pick any two above or
(e) pick any three above
I was the target of spitting, I was used as a personal ashtray for someone's cigarette, the Turkish men stopped walking and stared at me as if I had three heads, and attempted to cheat me out of money. Our rental car was hit by a city bus and my husband had to stay in the police station and endure a 6 hour grueling interrogation and breathalizer test in which the plastic tube had Never Been Changed. Think of what he could have contracted from that thing.
We chose Turkey because we love history, and Istanbul has been controlled by numerous groups over the history of humankind. Because Istanbul is the point at which Europe changes to Asia and it was on the Silk Road, I wanted to see the museums. The museums I had imagined, would be as wonderful as in Greece was, with objects that were 6000 years old. Nothing in America is that old.
It was not all bad, but my mind concentrates on the biggest events, which were traumatic. The Turkish people seem to react to me in a wheelchair as if I am from Mars, as if they have never seen a wheelchair before.
I was conscious to wear long skirts and jeans so that I would not offend, no shoulders uncovered, and I did not travel anywhere without my husband. Turkey is one of the most liberal of Middle Eastern countries, so I saw Turkish women in shorter skirts and short sleeves, and once I saw a girl wearing the headscarf, but also her shirt looked like a bustier! Some women dress in complete blackness, except for the eyes, and are silent. I tried not to stand out, but I did very much. I am aware of how every moment I am in a foreign country, I am an ambassador for my own.
All day long the Turkish men we went past stopped walking toward me and stared at me and my wheelchair, with an expression of either disgust or hatred, mouths agape. As I passed them they craned their necks or turned around to continue the stare. It quickly got on my nerves. At first I ignored them, just thinking to myself how rude, how Neaderthal, telling myself that they have no social tact whatsoever, but then after time I got so mad that I began the same long and deliberate stare right back into their eyes with the same look of disgust. That made the men feel strange, and they looked away. The Turkish women looked at me but looked away to make their faces. I felt like a circus side show. I counted 3 other wheelchairs (all tourists) and only one developmentally challenged person (the son of a tourist) during my two weeks. We drove 1500 miles (2500 kms) over Turkey. I get the feeling that Turkey hides their disabled community.
Several times men, facing me and staring at me, would block my way in front of the only ramp, refuse to move until I got close enough to hit them with my feet. The whole time me and my husband are saying excuse me in Turkish, to be courteous, but the Turkish men just stared at us and refused to move. They would not make room in the trains and trams for me to enter, even when there was plenty of room, so I had to push my way in with determination.
Once I was standing in a one-person cue at a hotel waiting to speak to the receptionist, and four different Turkish men, one at a time, walked right up to the desk and stood beside the person being waited on at that moment, and the receptionist helped those men next, while knowing full well that I was next. Of course, while I was waiting, the same men stared at my leg braces. I finally screamed at the fourth man, telling him that I am waiting, and he will not break in line ahead of me! I never reached the receptionist; the Turkish hotel employee refused to acknowledge my existence.
Once while I was sitting on the train, a Turkish man tapped his cigarette ashes in my lap and walked out the train door before I had a chance to get my revenge. Men spit at my feet multiple times then gave me a hateful look.
At one museum, they make private vehicles park a quarter mile away across a highway and haul the people to the entrance with an old trolley car (with steps up) pulled by a tractor. I parked at the entrance, where there was over 50 parking spaces available, (October is low season) and one of the tractor drivers told me that I had to ride the trolley, with steps I can't climb and which costs money of course. I refused and showed him my blue handicapped placard. He then wanted money to let me park at the entrance, which I wanted a receipt for. There was no receipt forthcoming of course; this was a scam. Any proceeds for parking would go straight to the scammer and not to the museum. Although he spoke no English and I spoke no Turkish we argued loudly all the way to the museum entrance, where he spoke to the man in the ticket booth. While he was trying to get the ticket taker to charge me more than the legal price, a museum official motioned us to come on in free. (sticking my tongue out)
I am not sure if it's just in the Middle East or all Muslims or both, but they don't eat with their left hand. They do, however, handle my food with both hands, and smoke while they are doing it. My digestive tract knew this. Turkish toilets are just a hole in the floor, and you have to bring your own paper and hope for a running faucet afterwards. There are no towels or hot air machines for drying your hands. I brought Lysol wipes and hand sanitizer. Luckily they eat delicious homemade yogurt at every meal, to promote healthy gut germs. Imagine how my vacation would have ended up without yogurt and Lysol.
The Turks drive almost twice the speed limit, drive backwards through intersections and on ramps, there are three rows of cars at a two-lane light, drive on both shoulders, pass (overtake) on blind curves at high speeds, and sit on the horn with each inhalation of oxygen. There are no rules at all. All the cars look like shit, with dents, one headlight, which they do not use at night, no brakes, no brakelights, and doors held on with bungie cords. All driving fast the wrong way down one-way streets made for horsecarts. The favorite car color in Turkey is rust. The city bus that hit our rental car just drove away without bothering to check to see if we were injured.
We were sitting at an intersection next to a very large city bus when we both turned left across the intersection. The city bus took our lane and our rental car. I was sitting in the passenger seat so the bus hit my part of the car. We stopped and I got a photo of the bus and bus number as it drove away. DH did not want to call the police, but I insisted, saying that if we return the rental with damage, they could call the police and he might go to jail or we could buy the car agency a new car. We don't know Turkish law for foreigners. We called the police, they asked us to follow them to the station, (DH driving) where we met a wonderful man from Kazakstan, who spent the next 6 hours of his day off translating for us. The police told DH to drive to a hospital to get a medical exam. We and the man from Kazakstan drove (DH driving the whole time, in Turkish traffic) for 2 hours to 3 hospitals and two police stations before locating a working breathalizer. The plastic tube had Never Been Changed.
Just imagine what diseases DH could have contracted from that tube, which had lots of teeth marks on it.
I refused to kiss DH for three days, saying that I needed to remain healthy during his quarantine to fill out his death certificate.
Because I could not climb the inevitable stairs getting into the police station to be with DH and our friend from Kazakstan, I sat out in the rental car all day. After about 3 hours of waiting, the afternoon wore on me and I began to think about what my DH could be enduring inside. Why is this taking so long? Is DH in a cell, cuffed to the ceiling, naked? Are they beating him? We were not at fault in the accident, but we are being treated like criminals foreigners with no civil rights. Making an accident report should not take all day. If the Bush administration can treat anyone suspected of anything like the way prisoners are treated in Abu Girab and Gitmo, what can we expect in a country such as Turkey, which has such a wonderful human rights record? The police standing outside the station with the submachine guns refused to talk to me, and gave me that same stare as if I were a repulsive circus side show. I wanted to go home that moment. I hated Turkey that day. I sobbed harder and longer than I had ever cried, and the residential neighborhood noticed me and gathered around the car. From their nonverbal communication I could tell that they were talking about me as if I were an object to be studied. No one in the crowd spoke to me, only about me. No one consoled me.
After 6 hours of this, my DH emerged with our friend from Kazakstan, and we offered him money and to take him to dinner because he refused. Mr. Kazakstan was the only selfless and truly helpful person we met on this vacation. He gave us his entire day off work, and accepted nothing as compensation. I don't even have a photo of him. He even got us a discount at a hotel where his friend worked in reception. I think Mr. Kazakstan was an angel. Remember what I said about being an ambassador?
We got out of there as soon as we woke up the next morning. We drove like a bat out of Turkish hell.
In Istanbul a carpet salesman approached us and refused to leave us alone even after I said no, thank you in Turkish several times, then I raised my voice and screamed at him, hopefully embarassing him. Once i got loud, he retreated.
Another night we drove until we were too tired to get to the next town, and asked two young men on the road for the location of a hotel. "Hotel" seems to be one of those universally understood words like "toilet."
They knew where a hotel was, but we could not communicate directions effectively, so they asked us if they could get into our car and show us. We felt safe and said yes, and ended up at a closed hotel, which was used only as a university boarding house, but accepted us for one night. There, we stayed up for several hours talking through a translator with 5 men about politics, religion, the Iraq war (Iraq shares a boarder with Turkey) and American views on Turkey and everything else. But since I was the only female, at first I stayed quiet. But as time went on, the young men in the group were glued to everything I said and wanted my opinion. I loved that night. The students had ten thousand questions for us, their first close encounter with Americans who are neither Republican nor Christian. We could have talked all night, but we could tell the translator's job was tiring, and we had many kilometers to drive the next day.
My husband and I went to a hamam and had a Turkish bath in a local place, not seen by many tourists. I had a good time; I was washed by a woman about 60 who was wearing nothing but a red lace thong. I was the last customer of the night and while I was supposed to be resting, the 5 employees got into a very heated argument so bad that I thought that there was going to be blood. Who could rest through that?
My husband's hamam story was funny. He was sent into the steam room and when he opened the door to enter, there were 3 other men inside, two Turks and a European. They were all naked, lying on their backs with their feet pointing toward the entrance door. Think of how that looks. My husband was laughing and cringing at the same time when he told me that, so I asked him how the American exchange rate looked against the Euro and Lira.
The man who bathed my husband was the size of a refrigerator, and he cracked my husband's back so loud that everyone laughed. He massaged my husband so hard that a week later, he still hurts.
While we were waiting for the bus to take us to the airport at 600am, I had to urinate, and, of course, there are no bathrooms near the bus station. Someone had left a large BM next to the covered seating. So I walked behind the building to the grassy area and proceeded. While I was hovering, a Turkish man saw me and walked fast toward me. Was he going to rob me in the dark or just knock me down? There are few people walking around at 530am for a good reasons, so I started yelling at him, asking if he was enjoying the show, and calling him names. He changed course. Then when I was finished, I saw him talking to two policemen and pointing to me and they all three looked at me. I walked back to the bus station area where my husband and wheelchair were, counting the hours until the airplane lifted off from this awful place.
During this trip we saw beautiful countryside, ate delicious lamb always at local restaurants and not tourist places, and Turks know how to make the best cheeses. I am glad I had the experience. for better or worse. I never expected to be treated so poorly because Turkey is 'a comparatively progressive country.'
Overall, I would say that I would not visit Turkey again. I don't know the reasons why Turkish men treated me with such contempt, but I am warning others so that you may not have the same experience.
Beware Turkey
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Troll alert!
It was very good of you to take the time to register to make your one and only post.
> I will never go to a Muslim country again.<
I don't understand why you make the jump from a few unfortunate incidents in one country to all Muslim countries.
>... my husband had to stay in the police station and endure a 6 hour grueling interrogation....<
That's what happens when foreign drivers get into accidents. The police assume that it is their fault.
>It was not all bad,...<
Would you mind giving us a trip report about the good parts?
So if a countries beliefs and customs are different from what you believe in they are wrong and you are the right one.
You sound like you want the world to cater to you. Get real, that won't always happen.
You say you spent all night talking politics, religion and about the war. Another way I am sure you got your opinions across. I can just hear it!!
You should have known in a mostly Muslim country women take a back seat to men and adjusted accordingly, where was your husband when you were waiting in line at hotel? I would have skipped the museum with the steps and found another one without steps.
Just because American makes it easy for the disabled other countries have no laws regarding that.
I feel this is a troll but had to reply. Certain people just feel the world owes them and it ticks me off.
MarthaT wrote: "I feel this is a troll but had to reply."
Hey look, Madam. I found this gold ring. Is it yours?
C'mon, you must have known what a hardship this trip was going to be from the get-go. You're in a wheelchair and you are going to take public buses, trains, and drive a rental car around Turkey?
I also don't understand what you mean by "Turkey"? Where you just in Istanbul or did you also visit other cities? You don't mention other cities in your report.
You also admit that you and husband were ignorant of Turkish law. Don't you think you should have done some research?
I also don't understand where your husband was during all this spitting and contempt from Turkish men. I find it hard to believe a Turkish man would insult, let alone talk to, a woman in the presence of her husband.
I have been to Turkey and never had any of these problems.
Tina from the Bronx
"So I walked behind the building to the grassy area and proceeded. While I was hovering, a Turkish man saw me and walked fast toward me. Was he going to rob me in the dark or just knock me down? There are few people walking around at 530am for a good reasons, so I started yelling at him, asking if he was enjoying the show, and calling him names. He changed course. Then when I was finished, I saw him talking to two policemen and pointing to me and they all three looked at me. I walked back to the bus station area where my husband and wheelchair were, counting the hours until the airplane lifted off from this awful place."
Reminds me of a skit on Little Britain.
Yes, strong smell of denizens of the deep to me.
I'm a smallish balding old coot, but I wouldn't allow any man to spit at Mrs. J.
Mind you, I can just imagine her reaction if they did
One thought occurs to me. It's possible that the OP is very obese.
Of course, lack of exercise can put weight on a person through no fault of their own.
However there are many cultures where people are less than kind to the extremely over-weight.
I agree with those who wonder what Islam has to do with it.
Schuler--I'm inclined to agree with you. I am not in a wheelchair or leg braces (thankfully) but am old-ish with bad knees, so would be very challenged to have to squat to pee in a field.
So, reminds me of the Little Britain character who jumps out of the wheelchair every time his caregiver turns his back. I just don't think it's real. Apologies to OP if any of this happened--too bizarre for words--but how did you manage that pee?
And, my women friends who have been to Turkey, large or small, have never experienced behavior like that described, other than sales hassles in the souks but that's part of the experience and easy to avoid.
What is the matter with Mr. OP?
He lets men spit at his wife and deserts her in the hotel reception queue.
He also deserts the poor soul when she's desperate for a pee.
The standard husbandly procedure is to stand with his back to spouse with coat outstretched, muttering, "Haven't you finished yet?"
Tough crowd.
I wish that someone here would kindly enlighten me. This post is obviously ridiculous. But why on earth would someone go to the trouble to write something like this? What is the motive here? To malign Turkey but why?
I thought this post was about warning people not to overeat during Thanksgiving.
Or warning shopper beware of buying melamine-tainted frozen turkeys from China.
This post needs to be sent to the garbage.
Well I like Turkey but only the white meat.
Padraig, I replied because I seen this type of post before and they always make me furious. So my reply was just a general one, just getting it out of my system.
Hopefully this one is a joke.
Did clarasong from The Lounge recently travel to Istanbul?
This is the only explanation I can come up with for this utterly bizarre post.
Tazzycat also posted this report at Lonely Planet and travelblog.org. Other than that I found one entry from September stating that she and her husband would be travelling to Turkey shortly.
I was in Turkey August of 2007 for 2 weeks, both in Istanbul and in the Western regions. Driving into Istanbul every day, going to tourist locations and non-touristy. We were on our own, myself, B, SIL, and 4 kids (3 girls 1 boy). It must have been a different country than the one she visited. Myself, I know I will be back to visit.
"Ma'm, I knew Turkey, and you ain't no Turkey"...or some variation on that statement
I can smell trolls 10km away.
I always wonder how people even find this forum... when there one & only post is of complaint and hatred.
Just seems curious to me why they'd do this?
"At one museum, they make private vehicles park a quarter mile away across a highway and haul the people to the entrance with an old trolley car (with steps up) pulled by a tractor."
Which museum was this?
From the OP>>I had to urinate, and, of course, there are no bathrooms near the bus station. Someone had left a large BM next to the covered seating. So I walked behind the building to the grassy area and proceeded.<<
Tazzycat, you are an idiot....if any of the OP is true (which I doubt...) you are also a moron.
Maybe all the men were staring at your gorgeous legs and not at the braces!
"and now for the contribution from the turkish tourist board".
At one museum, they make private vehicles park a quarter mile away across a highway and haul the people to the entrance with an old trolley car (with steps up) pulled by a tractor.
Aphrodisias has its public parking space away from the site itself with the transportation as described. But it also has a large parking lot for tour buses right next to the site itself, and I would be surprised if it did not also have handicap parking there.
In short, I think we should give this lady a break. I think she may be a bit eccentric but not a troll. If you do a bit of searching on the web, it seems that she might indeed be real.
When I google "tazzycat turkey", I find a few more posts by her over on LonelyPlanet.
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/message.jspa?messageID=14373856#14373856
I find it interesting that when the identical report was posted on Lonely Planet, people were much more gracious to the poster. Nobody there accused her of being a troll.
Are you saying that we are a mean bunch?
I agree that it's an odd first post, but really, folks, your response is a bit extreme. Learn to take people at their word. Sounds like the Turks didn't treat Tazzycat too well. Sorry, Tazzycat, your trip didn't go well, and also about your reception here. People on Fodors like you to dip your toe in the water before you bring on the criticism.
And as far as respecting differing cultures is concerned, if staring at handicapped people and, alternatively, pretending they're not there are part of Turkish culture, I'd have no problem saying "that stinks."
Perhaps she is a real person who had a very bad experience that really shook her.
The only thing I thought was weird was peeing in public.
As a woman, you can't do that in any country I've visited.
Anyway, I still feel badly she had such a rough experience.
gruezi
<<Author: gruezi
Date: 10/23/2008, 05:46 pm
Perhaps she is a real person who had a very bad experience that really shook her.
The only thing I thought was weird was peeing in public.
As a woman, you can't do that in any country I've visited. >>
gruezi - have you heard of Paula Radcliffe? [UK marathon world record holder]. she took a very famous public pee mid-race that the BBC broadcast before they realised what she was doing!
i wasn't aware that you could do it as a bloke either - it doesn't stop them though, does it?
regards, ann
ann,
I totally empathize with Paula and Tazzy, 'cause my bladder is about the size of a PEA so I know that song well, "gotta go, gotta go..."
My husband has been teasing me for 20 years to just get the Depends already!
I just plan my day well so I don't have to PEE in front of strangers in a foreign land.
gruezi
I can not imagine that someone would make up something like this. Apparently, she is a real person, and all these bad things happened to her (more or less). In a lot of countries, people are much less tolerant to anything unusual than in US. In a lot of places people would stare at disabled or any other unusually looking people. In some countries, people think that disabled may bring a bad luck or any other nonsense. I just came back to Turkey, loved it, and would never think this could happen in there. But… I don’t think this report is made up. Perhaps, someone Turkish can join this thread and shed some lights whether this can be truth.
Whether it's true or not (and frankly, to me most of it seems just fantastical), why would it lead to the statement "I will never go to another Muslim country again?"
Leaving aside the issue of whether Turkey is "a Muslim country" or not, how do you get from bad experience in a single country to a decision never to travel in a Muslim country?
I have to agree with a few that some of the posts were a bit harsh. Whether Tazzycat's accounts of what happened to her and husband in Turkey are accurate, as this is a travel site, I think she wanted to share her experience with others. I'm sorry that her trip did not go as well as she would have liked.
jdc
P.S. Still working on my 3 week trip report to France/Italy. Mine was fantastic.
Same exact text posted on this website:
http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Turkey/blog-337661.html
I googled one of the "catchy phrases". Interesting, this same poster has only one post there too, if you click on her name.
Have no idea how real any of this is.
BUT - when people start complaining about the predominant color of the cars being rust - or that traffic rules aren't obeyd to the letter of the law - there is a much bigger issue going on than complaints about discrimination against one person.
I have only been in Turkey once - for a couple of days - but did not see any of this type of discrimination against women - everyone was very happy to take my money.
I cannot comment on treatment of someone with a handicap - but it doesnt soud like the city I visited.
Tazzy - Thanks for the report. It was one of the more enjoyable reports I've read in some time. I'm looking forward to photos.
Been to Turkey, many Muslim countries, and lived in the Middle East...never been treated like that!!!! are you sure.??? I do believe the part about men getting ahead of you in the queue...the simply don't understand the idea, and expect that your man (who they think should be looking out for your needs) would be making himself known.
We were treated with extreme politeness, and every effort was made to shield me, as a woman. Of course, I dressed appropriately, don't show any hair, or flesh, other than the face, loose smocks, long dresses, big sun glasses, etc. Do not make eye contact, no try to speak to the men. It's just a different world., and next time, study up before you go.
>>>While we were waiting for the bus to take us to the airport at 600am, I had to urinate, and, of course, there are no bathrooms near the bus station. Someone had left a large BM next to the covered seating. So I walked behind the building to the grassy area and proceeded. While I was hovering, a Turkish man saw me and walked fast toward me. Was he going to rob me in the dark or just knock me down? There are few people walking around at 530am for a good reasons, so I started yelling at him, asking if he was enjoying the show, and calling him names. He changed course. Then when I was finished, I saw him talking to two policemen and pointing to me and they all three looked at me. I walked back to the bus station area where my husband and wheelchair were, counting the hours until the airplane lifted off from this awful place<<<
This is my favourite paragraph. Ever.
This bogus post (registered here for the first time just to bash Turkey) borders on hysterically funny if not only bizarre.
Is there a soul here who believes that people would generally stare at a woman in a wheel chair with "hate and disgust". Perhaps the poster has a difficult time reading facial expressions. Suggesting they stared at her making her feel awkward is one thing, but determining that they hated her and had disgust for her being in a wheelchair is -- well -- simply unbelievable.
I've had cigarette ashes flicked on me dozens of times. But I am not so paranoid that I assume or insist that the person did it on purpose.
But the real give away was the line "Think of what he could have contracted from that thing" regarding a breathalizer tube. What does that say? That the poster is convinced the Turks are a bunch of dirty disease ridden people. Why on earth would anyone assume you'd get a disease from such a thing? That comment alone speaks volumes.
Also it would be wise for a poster to get her story straight before posting. At one point we hear that there was a grueling 6 hour interrogation by the police. Later the same poster claims that several of those hours were actually spent driving to hospitals. The police were interrogating him, but yet the husband did the driving along with an interpreter. HUH? Can anyone follow that "story"?
<<There are few people walking around at 530am for a good reasons...>>
This also speaks volumes. I mean, according to the OP, she's in a Muslim country, where loads of people are up at 5:30 for the most benign of all possible reasons: to say the morning prayer.
I am not trying to suggest anything, but since we started googling this lady's other posts, there are some other ones posted by her on Lonely Planet and other sites. Those posts suggest that she prepares for her trip to Turkey, and that she is looking forward to visiting the country, and that she is very excited about it... So, something terrible must happened to her in Turkey that made her change her mind, and register to all these travel sites, and post this strange report... Crazy...
I've never understood exactly what a troll is,,, but this just might be one.
I admire Tazzycat for making a trip to Turkey in a wheelchair, and apparently there were SOME good experiences on the trip. Turkey is "Turkey" ,a fascinating country, and one doesn't travel across the ocean to find everything like in America.
Our daughter taught school in Turkey(American air base) for 2 years,and we visited her there for 10 days.
As we and others have experienced, people were VERY nice, friendly, would go our of their way to help travelers find their way. One is very safe in Turkey.....and many travelers on Fodors have had nothing but positive things to say about beautiful Turkey.
I;m sorry that the poster felt "stared at"....that shouldn't have happened.
What disturbs me is the "I will never visit another Muslim country"
No connection...I don't see the point, or of even sensibly making a comment like this. Sorry!
Obviously some of you people stopped reading the whole blog or have poor reading comprehension because you still question me when the facts are in the original blog. For example, we were at the bus stop at 0530am waiting for a 6am bus. I went to urinate alone in the 530am darkness behind a building because my husband was sitting at the stop with all out luggage. Would you have tried to haul all the luggage and wheelchair through the grass up a hill together or just walked at your own pace to find a private spot? What options did I have? No public places were open at the time...
You throw criticism around without ever sitting one day in a wheelchair or being in so much pain that you can't climb a flight of stairs. Maybe some day you will feel the way I do and understand life from a seated position.
This is not my first topic of posting; I posted questions about Turkey before we went, and yes, I did post the same blog to other sites; what's so wrong with that? Why do multiple sites exist?
Of course I do not expect the world to be wheelchair accessible, but I wanted to visit Turkey before I could not walk at all. I knew of the stairs and I can do a few. If you think that if a person uses a wheelchair then they can't walk at all, you are ignorant.
What I do expect is the same consideration as anyone.
We stayed in Istanbul when we first landed, then rented a car and went to Cappadocia, Konya, Antalya, Aphrodesias, Izmir, Ephesus, Manisas, Bursa and back.
Yes, Aphrodesias was the place where the scam artist tried to charge us for parking; there is no disabled parking at the entrance. That poster had no idea if there was disabled parking or not, he /she just assumed and criticized. That poster has never sat in a wheelchair.
The posters here who dismiss me would never have the courage to say such things to my face; that's how the internet gives them such a feeling of power to slam someone without using any social tact, and without fear.
My blog is not intended to inform those who have not traveled around the world, as I have done by wheelchair. I thought it was important to inform future travelers to Turkey of the facts. This was the very first time in my life that strangers treated me with such contempt while I was a guest in their country.
Now some of you are enjoying that opportunity to flame me on this website because you have never been a disabled traveler. I believe strongly in the freedom of speech, but with that should come responsibility and simple respect for other human beings.
Well said, Tazzycat!
Yes, Aphrodesias [sic]was the place where the scam artist tried to charge us for parking; there is no disabled parking at the entrance. That poster had no idea if there was disabled parking or not, he /she just assumed and criticized.
As I said, there was a large parking lot close to the actual entrance. If criticism, mine was relatively mild.
On the other had, if the rant was interspersed in a travel report which might offer other information to potential travelers, it probably would have been more believable. For example, the last posting by Tazzycat suggests that they took the bus from Istanbul to the airport. For those who wish to take public transportation, it would have been useful to know how they found out about the bus, where they were picking it up, and to which airport. As I pointed out in my own report (http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35151861)getting to and from the airport on the Asian side can be problematic and I would not try it by public transportation at 6 a.m.
<<I believe strongly in the freedom of speech, but with that should come responsibility and simple respect for other human beings.>>
A shame you couldn't ascribe that simple respect to the Muslim community, but rather chose to make a blanket dismissal of an entire culture based on an unpleasant (and I still maintain barely believable) experience.
Tazzycat, I am sorry that you had a bad experience in Turkey. I am planning a trip to Turkey for February, and I certainly hope to have a better time!
Honestly, I was a little surprised. I have read that overall the Turks are very friendly. Perhaps you had the misforture of running into the ones that aren't.
I hope you have better travel experiences in the future!
Tracy
Tazzy - Sorry to hear you were treated like a leper. I guess there's something to that cliche. As for your comments about Muslims in Turkey, those are certainly understandable, to me, anyway, when one keeps in mind the way the culture treats women, in general.
Tazzy,
Thanks for being brave enough to come back and post again.
Sorry you had such a tough time.
Sorry if my post was a bit insensitive about the need to pee. I actually have gone behind a tree a few times myself. I don't have the mobility issues that complicate things for you, so I shouldn't judge and feel badly I did.
gruezi
I will add my apology to Gruezi's because I specifically honed in on the bus station incident.
With so many women friends and family having had such wonderful times in Turkey, it is hard for me to come to terms with your account.
Try Sweden or Germany the next time.
Outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the show?
<<This is not my first topic of posting; I posted questions about Turkey before we went>>
Then you must have been registered under a different name at that time. Because this is the only post under "Tazzycat".
suze - the OP posted her prior question on Lonely Planet. If you click on the link I have provided in my post earlier (yesterday I think), you will see that she posted on LP asking about her upcoming trip to Turkey in a wheelchair.
I don't know, Tazzycat, what to think of your trip report. We were in Turkey in 2001 and here were my impressions and the advice that I'm glad I listened to. Everyone we met were nice, even the carpet touts. You just had to tell them no and mean it. They were so obvious in trying to charm us into changing our minds. At our Istanbul hotel, the doorman advised me to not stand outside late at night by myself (at the time I smoked), and couldn't around my husband. The doorman didn't think I would be harmed, but he did think I would be hassled. BFD, I'm a grown-up! At the Grand Bazaar, my DH was buying leather and I just wanted to walk around shopping. The leather store owner made one of his employees come with me. To this day, I think it was silly. I wasn't frightened, but again, I think these Turkish men thought they were protecting my honor. So quaint. In the US, I would probably have gotten mad, but in another country, the nice thing is to play by their rules. We were told under no circumstances, should we try to drive in the city. Didn't you get that very good advice before you went? I use a cane when I walk and if someone stared at me, I guess I either didn't notice or care. To be honest, if your report is on the level, I'm sorry to say, you may be one of those people who should stick to a tour, where your trip is carefully choreographed, you are picked up, dropped off, kept away from the "dirty masses", and have an experience that is more sanitized and virtual. I think Turkey is the best trip we've ever taken, and we travel alot. Again, if your report is true, I think it has way more to do with your perception, then with the way Turkey is. Too bad for you.
Tazzy, I have the utmost sympathy for the difficulties of travel in a wheelchair. I have a good friend who does the same thing. Only unlike you he does not wear leg braces -- he has no legs to put them on. He has often discussed that people stare at him, but unlike you he has never interpreted their curious stares as "hatred and disgust". I still question why in the world anyone would show hatred or disgust for you unless you did something else (besides just being in a wheelchair) to get that reaction. It is just not realistic to think that the "majority" of Turks think anyone in a wheelchair is disgusting or have hatred towards them.
But what is more amusing about all this is how you now chastise those of us who questioned some of the issues of your story (some of which really don't seem to make sense or add up), yet you see nothing wrong with dismissing an entire country. Your "I will never go to a Muslim country again" means what? What on earth does being a Muslim country have to do with any of this entire post? It seems to me you have dismissed all Muslims and an entire country based on your reaction to a handful of individuals. Yet you have the nerve to tell the rest of us that we are being unfair!
And by the way, most of us (who are not physically challenged) have all experienced people in our travels trying to unfairly part us from our money. Unscrupulous taxi drivers, ticket sellers, shopkeepers, etc. are all a part of travel. To decide that they were all that way to you ONLY because you were in a wheelchair is truly unfair. What excuse can all the rest of us give for getting the same treatment from time to time?
Try Sweden or Germany the next time.
Well, perhaps not Sweden.
In my experience, the Swedes are great starers at anyone or anything that looks a bit different.
They mean no harm at all and are very polite and helpful to foreigners.
zwho: >>> To this day, I think it was silly. I wasn't frightened, but again, I think these Turkish men thought they were protecting my honor. So quaint.<<<
I think I have been to Turkey something like ten times. And I think Turkish men in general are just about the most gentlemanly men I have met. I am fit, and nobody at home gives me a seat in a metro or bus, but in Istanbul both young and old men jump from their seats when I step in. They carry my bags, they open doors, and they certainly have never looked at me with hatred. They have really tried to "take care" of me. My guess is that if I was sitting in a wheelchair they would try even more.
But I must add that I liked reading the report. I like the writing style.
And about "muslim countries": they are just as different from each other as are "christian countries". Besides, Turkey is secular.
Tazzycat wrote on her 2nd post:
>>Now some of you are enjoying that opportunity to flame me on this website because you have never been a disabled traveler.<<
WRONG. I HAVE BEEN TO 30+ COUNTRIES with a disabled traveler (wheelchair). That is why I think your OP was ridiculous; I do the planning, the logistics from a wheelchair-bound standpoint. IF any of your OP is factual, then you are an EXTREMELY poor travel planner.
Just the particular fact that you were surprised on the use of the left hand is a huge flag on how poorly you prepared for this trip. My nephew who has never traveled anywhere is aware of this particular behavior. I am by no means justifying rude behavior towards obvious disability; if you have to endure that I feel bad for you. I am, however, taking exception to what appears to be shock on your part, when in fact this is probably more about badly calibrated expectations and very poor planning.
I'm disappointed but not surprised by the harsh responses many of you have given Tazzycat.
I think if there's room on this board for gushing over places after a short trip, there ought to be room for harsher comments too.
On boards like this, praise for other cultures is always politically correct. It's often acceptable to criticize more modern Western European societies like the Brits or the Swedes for this or that. But criticize a place with one foot in the Third World, and you've committed some sort of atrocity.
One thing Americans can rightly be proud of is the US approach to the value of the individual - whatever body he or she was born into. The ADA tells a whole lot about who we are as a people.
It is understandably disturbing for most of us to see the disabled accorded so little respect in certain parts of the world, and I don't think that criticism of culture A or Z on this basis constitutes intolerance, but rather a challenge to intolerance of differences.
"Collectivist" cultures place heavy emphasis on conformity rather than diversity. They are happy to reject the "part" of society that appears weak so that the "whole" appears stronger. I don't see anything wrong with objecting to such cultural orientations if you do indeed believe strongly in the worth of the individual and the value of his spirit over his physical limitations.
Muslim cultures tend to be some of the most collectivist on the planet. If one person decides she doesn't want to visit them on that basis, I don't see how that compromises anyone else's personal decisions about traveling to the Middle East or Muslim countries elsewhere.
Russ-- you made very compelling points and I agree with most of what you posted. I do however feel the need to clarify that some of the criticism is not about Tazzy's stand in never visiting a Muslim country ever again (totally understand), but on the expectations and shock on her part....hello? You planned a 1500- miles roadtrip on a Muslim country and come back shocked at demonstrations of intolerance for a handicap American female????....you weren't in Kansas anymore....
I just can't help but wonder if at least some of the time, people were reacting to all of the angry yelling and name-calling, rather than the wheelchair.
Tazzycat
Could there be another reason for the treatment you describe? I have such a hard time with your reasonings of your being in wheelchair being the cause of rude behavior. One of my best memories of Istanbul is the way I was treated by men, they were so respectful (except for one taxi driver that wayyyyyy overcharged us) I'm just wondering if it could be your attitude toward them? I remember an American man on a tour we were having of the Blue Mosque. He became loud and obnoxious because he was made to take off his shoes. He stated he was diabetic and could not remove his shoes and that they should make an exemption for him because of his handicap. As we boarded the bus that was taking us back to the hotel, he again yelled at our tour director because he could not have the seat he wanted and in his opinion, needed because of his handicap of walking with a cane. He was an embassement to our country. I'm not saying that this was your case as I was not there, just asking if there could be another reason you were treated poorly.
I am a mid 60's woman that has had serious back problems in the past, and probably will again in the furture. I am now in the middle of planning a month long trip to Europe for next fall, France, Switzerland, Germany. I don't post much but I read the posts every day for all the information that I can get, which is really a lot. I know I would never have the courage to travel in a wheelchair, so it is always in my mind each of my trips may be my last. since you did travel in what sounds like maybe not the most convenient place for handicapped people, I wish you would post again and tell us about the good stuff. How did you handle the airport, renting cars, what did you see and how did you get to the sites, being in a wheelchair what did you enjoy the most. Unknowns scare me, I would really like to hear about how you travel and some things to do and some things to avoid. There must be some really memoriable experiences from that trip. If I end up in a wheelchair in the furture I don't know if hearing how other people travel would give me the courage to travel myself, but it may help. There must be lots of other people like me out there.
I finally returned to Fodors after a few months of self-imposed exile. For two days I was heartened to see that the mean-spirited insulting comments seemed to have disappeared. Then I found this thread. And it's the same haughty self-important snobs hurling the insults. Outta here.
Can we get an "ignore" button please?
Russ wrote: " But criticize a place with one foot in the Third World, and you've committed some sort of atrocity."
That's not the way things are. It's much simpler: there is reasonable criticism, and there is unreasonable criticism.
[All criticism of America is regarded by some as being unreasonable.]
Hmmmm...personally, I found the "mean-spirited insulting comments" came mainly from the OP, who seems to have been woefully unprepared for this voyage and who returned with a passel of really broad prejudices.
My own experience in Turkey, as well as that of numerous other posters here, was entirely different. That's not to say Tazzycat didn't experience what she says she did, but it certainly raises a red flag about why her experience was so markedly different from that of so many others. And I'm not buying that it was because of the handicap. I think there must be more to the story.
When I first read the post, I was thinking that it couldn't be real. But rather than jump to conclusions, I chose to ask a factual question about where the museum with the trolley car was. I figured that if such a museum existed, then someone would know about it. And indeed someone confirmed the existence of such a place -- or at least a place that sounded like where she claimed to have been.
And as others have pointed out, she has posted elsewhere asking for tips on this trip. I haven't verified this, but I trust this to be true.
So I think the poster does seem real, and she must have had a pretty horrible experience. Just because others have travelled to Turkey and have experienced better, it doesn't make her experience less real. Or even if you travelled to Turkey with a wheelcar or travelled there with someone who did and had a great experience, it still doesn't make her experience less real. Just because something sounds like it couldn't have happened, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It's not like she claimed that she saw an UFO in Turkey.
Improbable doesn't mean impossible.
It seems to me that there are people here and elsewhere who are not as open to alternative ideas or views or experiences. When they are confronted, their tendency is to criticize instead (a common tactic) rather than acknowledge the issues at hand.
Surely this poster is not the first poster to have made some hyperbolic remarks on Fodor's? So, she doesn't want to visit a Muslim country again. So what, really?
As someone pointed out, people on other boards seemed more responsive to her (when she posted exactly the same thing). It does make me wonder.
Tazzy,
In your original post, you mentioned about urinating around the back of some building - well to be honest, if you had tried that in the UK, you would have met with the same reaction as you got in Turkey.
Mark
Perhaps the posters on Thorn Tree were more responsive because they had been in conversation with her earlier about her plans prior to the trip?
Any time a rant like this is a first post on the forum, is curious. Seems a strange way to introduce yourself to a new set of readers. We didn't have all the back-story as we would if Tazzycat had ever post on *this* forum before.
That said, I AM sorry anyone had to endure ALL those horrible experience(s) she had on her trip.
111op, you said it beautifully. Especially about the judgemental, crotchety posters on this forum. Personally, I've been to one Muslim country (Egypt) where, for the most part, the people were wonderful to me. However, I have no plans to go to any Muslim country ever given the world situation. Irrational? Maybe. So what? I don't think anyone should be flamed for sharing honest views or experiences.
That's a good point, suze.
But now that we know that she has posted elsewhere to prepare for her trip, why not cut her some slack? I would.
I'm not sure what she writes is completely true, but I do think that she must have a horrible experience to post something like this to multiple forums. Perhaps my assumption is wrong, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for a moment.
As I said, improbable is not impossible. I remember that incident in Italy over the summer when an elderly man was drugged and fell to his death on the train tracks. It really struck a chord because I was going to Italy at that time when the news broke, and I was going with my (elderly) parents. I'd probably have thought that something like that couldn't happen in Rome. But yet it did.
Actually I myself had an "interesting" incident in Istanbul that was even a little scary. I can't repeat it in this forum, but if I hadn't experienced it myself, I'd have thought that it couldn't have happened. Granted, I put myself at risk, but I still couldn't have predicted what actually happened. However, it won't make me swear off Turkey, just that I'll be more careful in the future.
I don't really understand why people would think the OP's post is made up. There's quite a lot of detail and as well as the negative comments about her treatment as a disabled person, the driving standards etc there are also quite a few positives, such as the hammam, countryside and some of the cuisine.
The attitude of the Turkish men toward her is not necessarily typical of all muslims, obviously, but it is perfectly believable - I've had friends visiting north African countries treated in much the same way (by some men, not all). And in the UK I've seen plenty of people stare very rudely at those with disabilities, so I can well believe it happens elsewhere.
I think the OP's comments about the toilet facilities show unrealistic expectations (that everywhere will operate to Western standards), but some of the ranting about those sort of things seem to be a not-entirely surprising consequence of feeling less-than-enamoured with a country where many people had treated her like a freakshow.
PS - I second Russ's comments re our PC-ness regarding different countries.
There is a difference between having unrealistic expectations of facilities in poorer or less developed countries, versus excusing unacceptable behaviour.
Well RM67, I don't know about the others. But when I first read the post, what I found suspicious was the lack of specifics -- no names of hotels, museum where the parking incident occurred was nameless, etc. It also wasn't clear or specific which towns or cities the poster went and what happened where -- at least from a quick read.
When I write a report I tend to be very specific about places I went.
Also, as someone else mentioned, she has never posted here before.
But anyway, as I said, I didn't jump to conclusions. I figured that I'd let it play out a little.
I think things like the car accident, etc probably did make for a less than pleasant trip, and then it might just be natural to look back and see all the bad things, and perhaps exaggerate them in your mind.
However, it does seem that most of the time there is some vibe from a person - obvious or subtle - that invites bad reactions. I've seen plenty of people - Americans and others - being demanding, rude, just obnoxious to the locals working in the tourist industry in many countries. The example given in this thread of the guy would didn't want to take his shoes off in a mosque is one. I have one memory of an American returning a rental car in Ireland who was just awful to the clerk - and the clerk was relatively awful back to him. But when it was our turn, and we were pleasant and respectful, that's exactly how we were treated (by the same clerk) in return. People are always talking about "rude Parisians", I've been to Paris numerous times and I can think of only one brief encounter when I'd call the guy rude - every other Parisian I've met has been wonderful.
So I think tazzycat must have been at least a little to blame for the treatment she encountered. Statements like "While he was trying to get the ticket taker to charge me more than the legal price, a museum official motioned us to come on in free. (sticking my tongue out)". Sticking your tongue out?!!! That's pretty rude (not to mention possibly dangerous, and therefore stupid). That and peeing in pubic - most people I know would never consider doing that, at least not in a city (maybe hiking in the woods or something). I think it was stuff like this that got the posters here thinking this was a troll.
I'm going to Istanbul in March and I'm so glad to hear all the good experiences people have had.
It was not the content but the hysterical writing that made it hard for me to take the OP seriously. Things like:
"men stopped walking and stared at me as if I had three heads"
"an expression of either disgust or hatred, mouths agape"
"before I had a chance to get my revenge"
"I finally screamed"
etc.
My SIL & BIL took a Med. cruise last summer and talked about the food on the ship and how much the ships tours cost. My point of view is who cares about the ships food and most port cities don't realy require a "tour", just a good guidebook and an idea of what you want to see in 8 hours. They are vacationers, not travellers and I think that is the same for you Tazzycat. You may have enjoyed speaking to the students, so maybe your next vacation should have an educational component to it, but I don't think you are a DIY traveller. It's not for everyone. I have a card that says when you travel, the most important thing to bring is your sense of humor. Maybe if you could have found some humor in the differences between you and Turks, you wouldn't feel so disappointed. Speaking for myself, I enjoy how alike most people are, even if they have different customs.
Why, oh why didn't my mother teach me never to travel to a Catholic country like Italy or Spain or Portugal if I were treated improperly in Catholic Argentina?
Why did she have to shelter me to the point where I became so naive as not to be able to draw such prudent conclusions
I don't know why, as I have no idea that this was the case with the OP, but suddenly I'm reminded of a trip to Disney World.
We had been standing in line for the Kraft cruise for something like a half hour. We were near the front of the line finally when a man pushed a woman in a wheelchair up to the front (they don't have to wait in line). The person there told them that it would be about 10 minutes before the next wheelchair boat as one had just left. The woman in the wheelchair became hysterical. She was screaming about the unfairness and the mishandling of the entire handicapped situation at Epcot. It was outrageous that she'd have to wait 10 minutes because they didn't have sense enough to have enough handicapped boats. Duh. The rest of us had been waiting three times that long, and she obviously had been wheeled up to the head of every other line. This is the type person who uses the handicapped idea as an excuse -- not for being treated badly -- but rather to expect very, very special treatment all the time and to go ballistic if they are somehow treated as anything but very special. I think I did look at that woman in a wheelchair with "disgust". It's the only time I've been known to do so, but I think I had good reason.
I wonder if there is any connection between my memory of that incident and this "trip to Turkey"? Again, it's the only type of reason I can think of for someone to look at a person in a wheelchair with "hatred and disgust".
Tazzycat, knowing Turkey, and the world, like I do, nothing that you wrote surprised me in the least, and I find your post utterly credible, however, posts such as yours are utterly necessary in order for people who frequent this board in particular, to understand that trips to places like Turkey are not all peachy keen, sunshine and rainbows-I've witnessed awful things in Istanbul, and the thing about Turkey is, things can turn bad in a minute, on a dime, I know that, because I've experienced it myself.
I'm glad you shared your rather grim experiences, and the important thing is, you DID learn from it, and that's what happens when you have awful experiences in a not-completely-westernized-culture, shall we say, like Turkey is. So I find your post very useful from that perspective.
It also doesn't surprise me in the least that the usual suspects at Fodor's would be so vicious and utterly inane as to call you a troll, and denegrate your experience. Remember, at Fodor's if you DON'T say that your travel experience was PERFECT, and if you had some bad experiences AS A FOREIGNER, PARTICULARLY IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN, AND PARTICULARLY AS REGARDS TURKEY, then you will be viciously ripped apart as a troll. But as I'm sure you understand, those kinds of posts say everything about the weird kind of non-insightful persona that emanates from these Fodorites, and nothing about you.
"I think I did look at that woman in a wheelchair with 'disgust'"
LOL NeoPatrick, I would have too!
I think IF the OP were not a troll, she's definitely not telling us the whole truth.
>usual suspects at Fodor's
Hey, stop, I didn't say a thing.
At least nothing negative.
Ok, I won't be going there again in the next few years, but I'm willing to accept this place like it is.
Girlspy you sure are the trolliest of them all. Didn't you say in the past that you explicitly stated to Turks that you were an American and that your husband was an Israeli and were still treated very well?
Troll or not-Muslin country or not...if I am uncomfortable there or mistreated, I'm out of there.
Come on, Guys, give this lady a break! She is disabled, and has traveled before, so she must be able to judge the response of those she encounters. She, by and large, found this response in Turkey simply dreadful, in relation to how she has been treated elsewhere.
She is pissed.
She told us about it.
Unless you have walked (make that wheeled) a mile -----
I came away from Turkey with a quite different feeling, but she is certainly entitled to hers, and to use a public forum to let us know about it.
Pull in your fangs; you are showing an ugly side of this forum that does it a disservice, IMO.
Isabel wins. ("peeing in pubic...")
I'm curious if some of those of you who seem appalled that anyone would disagree with the TONE of the OP's post, also agree it is perfectly fine to dismiss an entire country that way.
Would you be equally understanding if someone said, "I will never go to the United States again -- everyone there hated me because I am French (or speak with an accent, or have red hair, or wear a turban). Would you understand if someone said, "I will never go to a country again where most of the people are black"? How about "I will never again go to a country where most of the people are white"?
Sorry, but anyone willing to dismiss an entire nation based on their religion as this OP does -- or who says some of the hateful things she does, deserves to be dismissed herself. Being in a wheelchair does not excuse someone for being a bigot, or for making the same kind of generalities about other people that she is accusing them of making about her.
This is a very, very tough place. I am going back to the safety of the lounge.
I think the OP would rather have been on a cruise!
Or maybe she just got taken by a
Turkish rug dealer!!!
I agree with you, Cold. Did you notice that in the first few posts the woman was called a Troll, in effect called stupid and bizarre, her husband was implied to be a coward because he didn't offer to fight every Turk on the street who offended her, called to task because she must be "obese", and called an "idiot" and a "moron".
Tough crowd, indeed.
I'm ashamed of you people!
"I'm curious if some of those of you who seem appalled that anyone would disagree with the TONE of the OP's post, also agree it is perfectly fine to dismiss an entire country that way."
"Tough crowd, indeed.
"I'm ashamed of you people.
I take it that would be a yes!
Oh, come on NeoPat. I'm appalled at the way this lady got jumped on. She got shat upon in Turkey and, in her mind at least, a'int goin' back there no more! She has a right to express that, and she sure did.
I have seen people on this site who bad mouthed the whole French nation who were treated far more gently than this thread has done to this gal. We all love France, and we have not in the past ( Well, a few exceptions I can remember) savaged people so severely who have had a rude waiter, or a dirty restroom, and will never return to France again. We usually chide them for generalizing, counter with nice things that have happened to us, and write them off as unfortunate.
We do NOT start calling people trolls, idiots, morons, or fat.
I am not defending those wild slams and accusations or insults. I was merely posing a question.
It does seem interesting though, that some feel it is perfectly fine for one indvidual to slam an entire country (and/or its religion)because of a treatment (or perhaps even "imagined" treatment) by a few individuals, but it is not ok to chastise that one individual for slamming an entire nation. Kind of a stange logic to me.
Neo: It's just that people were down her throat so quickly and so harshly for expressing an opinion on one country. Lots of posters do that here. You'd think she was carving up Turkish babies in her cellar.
A lot of us still believe that business about being free to express yourself, however myopic or however unappealing it might be to others, without getting verbally assaulted - which is clearly what went on here. Having a negative opinion about some culture - especially when based on some real experience - just isn't "hate speech" and doesn't merit such responses.
Well, said Russ. But like I said before, anyone who dares to offer a negative travel experience on THIS board, as opposed to any others out there, will get the vicious sucker punch by the usual suspects on this board, who resort to knee-jerk name-calling and insults, rather than just accepting and yes, learning, from another traveler's experience and perspective on the matter.
It's a very American thing, what these Fodorites do here-it's all about their inability to accept opposing points of view that are downright negative of another culture without thinking they must defend that culture to show how "worldly" they are-which in point of fact, is anything but.
A good thing of this forum is, that you get responses from people that aren't in your social class. They have their opinions but you're aware of them. Normally the only place you meet them is on the subway, when usually all you say is "excuse me".
).
Some are American, some are of other nationalities. In this town, I usually only met very nice and educated people from Turkey, (the consuls daughter was so sweet
Honestly I'm happy to get opinions for those other people here. I wouldn't have the opportunity to talk to them in the US, and some are rather strange, but who cares. I'm even listening to Neo.
Girlspytravel,
Yes, I agree, it is an American thing.
But it's not about being worldly. It's just that educated people in America consider it poor manners and also ignorant to judge an entire society by the actions of a few.
We don't like to have it happen to us, and we don't like to do it.
I know it's not always the way of the world, but it is our way.
I agree, however, that we shouldn't get so psycho when other people do the judging thing. That's their business.
gruezi
have you noticed she hasn't come back?
that's a little surprising I think.
Author: suze
Date: 10/25/2008, 01:29 pm
<<It was not the content but the hysterical writing that made it hard for me to take the OP seriously. Things like:
"men stopped walking and stared at me as if I had three heads">>
LOL suze, DH and I have commented on the way in which we have been looked at as if we have TWO heads, but never three.
so long as the lookers don't appear to be wanting to separate our heads from our bodies, we tend to smile and carry on regardless. this has happened on several occasions to us when travelling, usually in more "exotic" places, though I do remember one bar in Prague which had a bust of stalin in one corner, and a picture of Dubczek in another, where we got some most peculiar looks from the entirely local customers. one beer and we were out of there.
I suspect that IF she exists, TC is in truth not a very experienced traveller who had an idealised view of turkey and/or individual travel, especially as a disabled person. what a shame she had such a terrible time.
regards, ann
Uh oh. I used the three heads line in our trip report about China. Mind you there were six of us.
I find the sweeping generalizations about the "usual suspects on this board" even more tiresome and petty than the sweeping generalizations about entire cultures by travelers.
At least the travelers got off their duffs and went somewhere and had a bad experience.
Tazzycat, I'll chime in. I visited Turkey in July of this year and went to all the places you went (and more) with the exception of Manisas.
I have to agree with the others who have suggested that you may not have done the proper research. I clearly remember thinking on multiple occasions that Turkey is not a destination for everyone, specifically because of its sometimes challenging terrain, environment (insert any other noun that applies to an area in which one should be relatively able to navigate physically,) and yes, culture.
Turkey is not a western country. I slipped and tripped several times myself on uneven pavements, stairs, steps- you name it. My companion and I laughed at the obvious lack of litigation in the country. No warning signs etc. The general day to day "rules" seemed to be mere "suggestions." The crazy driving, poor roads and highways, lack of organized queues and smoking rules come to mind.
I have both physically and mentally challenged relatives in my immediate family, and yes, I do have compassion for them and hate that sometimes they are unable to do what they would like. My heart breaks when their feelings are hurt by others who do not realize their limitations. However, I would never suggest that someone with mobility issues travel anywhwere in Turkey outside of Istanbul. Should all the world provide handicapped access? Absolutely. Does all the world make these accommodations? Absolutely not. It may not be ideal, politically correct, or even right, but it is the truth.
Turkey is a wonderful, rich, friendly country. Despite a few unpleasant moments, which everyone will have traveling, I rate the trip A+. I doubt I would assign the same rating if I were unable to walk. Sorry if this comes across insensitive; I truly do not mean it that way. I am merely suggesting that a little research may have made your trip more enjoyable.
I hope your next trip is more pleasant.
It's one thing to have negative comments about a destination but really quite another to be telling giant, big furfies like this OP.
I have just returned yesterday from a wonderful Turkish holiday that involved a lot of driving and we were absolutely amazed at the standard of driving - which was excellent - and the standard of car - no beat up bombs etc all seemed to be relatively new.
As for Turkish toilets - that was always going to be a big concern for me - I was just amazed at how clean they all were - no holes in the ground - all modern pedestals and really without exception, spotlessly clean.
I found the Turkish people to be amazingly polite, helpful and friendly and am struggling to see how the OP and I have visited the same country.
Anyway, I am suffering a bit of jetlag at the moment but promise to write a trip report soon but in the meantime I would highly recommend Turkey as a destination any day!
stormbird - I am planning a trip for March and would love to read your trip report. Just a little encouragement for you to write one.
stormbird -
Me too!!
gruezi
Tazzycat!
I enjoyed your story and think that it would make a good comedy. (movie) Would somebody please tell me what a troll is?
A troll is somebody who posts to a forum or discussion list something negative or controversial in the hope of getting a rise out of the members.
In this case, the ploy has worked admirably.
TazzyCat –
I’m so sorry your trip wasn’t everything you hoped it would be.
And I’m also sorry for the treatment you’ve received on this board. I think some people forget that not everyone on this board is a seasoned, sophisticated world-traveler. And I also think a lot of folks here need to recognize that when a person has a bad experience in a foreign country, they did not necessarily bring it on themselves.
Your post reads to me as if you had planned and saved for a long time to make this very special, once-in-a-lifetime trip. You expected marvelous things, perhaps life-changing adventure - and instead were humiliated and fearful for a lot of the time.
You are obviously angry and disappointed. I know that kind of disappointment, and I know it can lead to hasty comments like “don’t travel to this country” and “all people from <insert ethnic and/or religious group here> are awful.”
A little bit of kindly meant advice: It’s hard not to generalize after a traumatic experience, and obviously you wrote your post while still incensed and outraged about some of the things that happened. But these kinds of comments will draw ire from just about everyone. Next time, take a breath, and perhaps wait to post until the worst of your hurt and anger have subsided. Maybe divide your post into segments like “Good day at the museum” or “I miss clean public bathrooms” or “Sometimes people can be jerks to people with disabilities.”
I hope your future is filled with more joyful and peaceful travels. Best of luck.
I think some people forget that not everyone on this board is a seasoned, sophisticated world-traveler.
I believe that Tazzycat mentioned elsewhere that she had spent a few months in Saudi Arabia.
Michael, 1 trip does not necessarily make the OP a sophisticated traveller. My DH has been to 7 foreign countries -- how would that prepare him for something like getting sideswiped by a bus and getting then blamed for the accident?
And I share Gurezi's, Russ's and other's opinion that this board is a tough place and that the OP has been treated roughly for some (admittedly) less than thoughtful remarks.
Being called a troll is bad enough. But then to tell the OP repeatedly - - with great rudeness and snarkiness - that it was all somehow her fault, that she wasn't prepared enough, that she should've known better, etc. -- is unkind and uncalled for.
Hey Tazzycat,
Well, I can't read all of the posts above, but the drift is not so nice.
I am sorry you had a terrible time in Turkey. It definitely does not sound like a place that I would want to visit. I can't believe people spit on you and dropped cigarette ashes on you.
Yes, I think you have every right to be angry and disappointed in your trip. It wouldn't matter if you were a world traveler or never left home, no one should be treated this poorly on a trip anywhere.
I wish you better travels on your next trip. I would stick with countries that are more wheelchair accessible as it will be easier for you to get around.
This poster (by her own admission)-
sobbed, cried, screamed, stuck her tongue out, yelled at people, and called them names.
Is Tazztcat's ex- husband a Turk??
"This poster (by her own admission)-
sobbed, cried, screamed, stuck her tongue out, yelled at people, and called them names."
Suze - I thought all posters acted like that.
Well sure cold, here on the Forum, but not when I'm traveling!
Yeah, Suze, this woman did those things. Put yourself in her shoes, please. She is in leg braces. She is in a wheel chair. Someone goggles at her, says insulting things, spits on her, and deliberately dumps cigarette ashes in her lap. This happens time and time again.
What can she do? The option of confronting the person face to face is out. She can hardly run after them and kick them where they deserved to be kicked. I'd probably scream, cry, and stick out my tongue, as well as issue a few insults of my own.
And SHE is to blame for losing it?
Get a grip!
I just don't understand why people keep topping this thread. As Patrick and others said, it's absolutely implausible that she was treated with such "disgust and contempt" by the majority of Turks she came across simply because she was sitting on a wheel chair. And don't try to make me feel bad about saying such a perfectly logical statement.
OK, I'll say what many are probably thinking. The general public of ANY country does not routinely spit on people, dump cigarette ashes on people, or greet those in wheelchairs with hate and disgust. There is a BIG part of this story that is missing, or someone has a major chip on her shoulder. Considering the warning about ALL Muslim countries, despite the lack of a single reference to anything in the post about Muslims speaks volumes and I suspect there is a major chip here.
For about the umpteenth time, the issue here is not that someone didn't like the country, but rather that someone has routinely badmouthed and dismissed an entire nation and even multi nations because of a religion.
The entire post is an attempt to slam an entire country for being "prejudiced" against a type of person while at the same time showing prejudices against a type of person. Do you get it yet?
topping for mnss
I just had to add that in my own experience (all over western Turkey) which covered Istanbul, Ankara, Cappadocia, Antalya, A private 4 day Gulet trip, and Izmir, including Epheseus, I think we only encountered 1 Turkish toilet, and it was spotless, and this included the small villages on the Gulet route. No tour, we were on our own, except for hiring guides for Ephesus, Cappadocia, and the ruins on the Gulet. We encountered way more Turkish toilets in Italy, especially in the train stations. Someone here can back me up on this. Sorry, TC, your story is sad, but I agree with many of the people who say, it doesn't really make sense. Where were you that they didn't have western toilets? I swear, in Turkey, they do. I remember how happily suprised I was! I guess the reason so many people are upset with your story is contrary to the 1 or 2 people who agree with you, most everyone who visits there, can not believe the friendliness AND generosity of the people. You sure you were in Turkey? BTW, I'm not Turkish, my background is Polish and Russian, but I am a fan.
I too wondered about the "Turkish toilets". I honestly don't recall encountering a single one in my over three weeks in Turkey. On the other hand I've encountered plenty of them, often in fairly upscale restaurants in the heart of Paris.
This poster makes it sound like that's the only toilets they encountered. Even the cheaper restaurants we went to -- in the countryside as well as in the cities -- all had spotless, modern restrooms with regular toilets. No running water? Hole in the floor? Really makes one wonder where they were, where they stayed, and where they ate.
Well, as I said, implausible doesn't mean impossible. How can you *prove* that the things described by the poster didn't happen?
I'm sure that foreign students don't go to London or to Perugia to get murdered. Certainly murders are not routine. So these high-profile murders happened, and so should we argue the victims were asking for it and somehow a big part of the story is missing?
I'm not really sure what's logical here or what I'm missing actually. Lots of things happen and they don't make sense. Sometimes there's no logic to these things. Some people are unlucky.
111op, what is most ILLOGICAL is that the poster slams all Muslim nations (will never visit one again) for something that has NOTHING to do with the Muslim religion.
Sorry, I find that just as offensive as someone visiting Atlanta, having a bad time and then saying, "I will never go to any city inhabited by black people again."
I'm not Muslim, but I found the original post outrageously offensive!
Well Patrick, that's one line in her report.
There are lots of illogical bigots (I'm not saying Tazzycat is necessarily one, and so what if she is one) out there. Do you call them on this every time in real life?
As I said, I'm not sure how much of it is real, but in this case, I'm ready to cut her some slack. I think she must have had a rough time. She must have been upset. So she didn't edit her report carefully and she was emotional.
Is that a crime? Must we defend the honor of Muslims in this world?
And all right, let's say that maybe she did make up the whole thing. But can anyone prove that she actually did? You were not on the trip with her.
Personally, I'm just not sure why people (Fodorites?) have to be so judgmental and critical all the time.
"Personally, I'm just not sure why people (Fodorites?) have to be so judgmental and critical all the time."
Exactly! Why write such a trip report to begin with? It was just as you say: to judge and criticize. It was her one way of "getting even."
People can see through that and they resent it. There is a difference between a negative trip report and a rant.
I think this lady has:
1. A HUGE chip on her shoulder
2. A hangup about her disability
3. No sense of humour
4. No idea how to travel in foreign countries
5. Not told us the whole story
Well I suggest people who are slamming her read her report again.
I don't think it was all a rant. Even the comment about Muslim countries was phrased like this: "We are glad we went...but I will never go to a Muslim country again."
Then this was followed by this paragraph: "We met nice people who went out of their way to be nice to us, and then we met some people who went out of their way to be True AH's either because I am...."
Not that she wasn't already negative, but she could have been even far more negative. She could have ranted on and on with nothing positive to say at all.
And perhaps she wrote the trip report to "get even," but in her own words: "Overall, I would say that I would not visit Turkey again. I don't know the reasons why Turkish men treated me with such contempt, but I am warning others so that you may not have the same experience."
Even the person that called her a moron and an idiot said this ...
"I do however feel the need to clarify that some of the criticism is not about Tazzy's stand in never visiting a Muslim country ever again (totally understand), ..."
As I stated above, I'm reminded of the American jerk on our English speaking tour of the Blue Mosque who shouted that he couldn't take off his shoes because he was diabetic. He rudely yelled he wasn't Muslim so his shoes had to stay on. On being told he could not go in if he did not remove his shoes he finally did so but grumbled the whole time spilling out hateful little messages. He ended up putting his shoes back on before the tour ended and was surrounded by personnel telling him he could not do that. Another string of expletives came from his nasty mouth.
Once we boarded the bus he again became unreasonable and truly an a$$hole because he did not get the seat he wanted and according to him needed as he is handicapped and walked with a cane. He was met at our next stop by a group of men who escorted him to a taxi. He yelled the whole way, "I paid for this tour and I'm not leaving!" The whole busload of English speaking tourist's appolized to the Turkish tour director.
I can just imagine he would have written a letter very similar to that of the OP.
She was NOT treated the way she states because of the reasons she states. Because she's American? Because's she's a woman? Because she's handicapped? NONE of those reasons she gives make sense. I contend it was probably her attitude and like the man I spoke about was truly an ugly American.
Ages ago I posted a trip report of my trip to Amsterdam and I had something like three responses. If I ever do a trip report again, I'm going to use a title like "Paris - Yech!! to get a lot more action.
I hate Paris too Bird.
"Personally, I'm just not sure why people (Fodorites?) have to be so judgmental and critical all the time."
Yes. Thanks for agreeing with my main point. Like 5alive says, that is exactly what the OP was doing.
I have no idea why some of you think it is perfectly fine for someone to bash an entire country and/or religion but somehow think it's outrageous when someone points out the unfairness of that.
Cold - was that your post - "Paris - What a Dump"? from many years ago?
Yes Bird, but the city name is interchangeable. I hate everywhere I have been. Except Philadelphia.
Tazzycat, I would enjoy reading about what you did like on your trip. Since you wrote why you chose Turkey, it seems that something must have been to your liking.
"We chose Turkey because we love history, and Istanbul has been controlled by numerous groups over the history of humankind. Because Istanbul is the point at which Europe changes to Asia and it was on the Silk Road, I wanted to see the museums. The museums I had imagined, would be as wonderful as in Greece was, with objects that were 6000 years old. Nothing in America is that old."
Well, to be clear, I don't think that "it is perfectly fine for someone to bash an entire country and/or religion."
I also don't think that "it's outrageous when someone points out the unfairness of that."
But I still think that there are some people on this forum who seem quite unpleasant. And there seems to be a tendency to harp on or jump on one thing over and over. In a way, you could argue that I'm the same, but then, at least I vary each post a little while reiterating the same points.
Surely there must be room to meet in the middle.
Anyway, I just hope that these people are more pleasant in real life. And honestly I'm quite glad that I don't deal with these kinds of people in real life.
Or at least if I did at one point, you can be sure I don't anymore.
111op,
>>Well, to be clear, I don't think that "it is perfectly fine for someone to bash an entire country and/or religion."
If you want to bash an entire country and/or religion, you have to post in the lounge.
Thanks Bird. How about if I want to bash some Fodorites? Should I bash those people in the lounge then?
The vehemence of some of these posters makes me think that there must be a bashing cult that all these Fodorites belong to. Maybe there's a secret handshake somewhere. As long as someone new posts something (very negative) and this person has never posted before, then that person must be a troll. Then the negativity starts and accelerates.
I'd like to start a rival cult. A "be nice" cult.
Also I'm thinking that some of these Fodorites should adopt stock picking instead as a pastime. There seem to be such clairvoyance and conviction. They seem to know everything about someone else's trip. No this could not have happened. Or something else must have happened.
If that's the case, surely they must know if the stock market will be up or down each day. Why not spend the time on that and get rich in the process? I would if I had this ability.
<<a Turkish man tapped his cigarette ashes in my lap and walked out the train door>>
...Or in a crowded situation with people rushing to get off the train his ashes accidentlly fell into the lap of a seated stranger? Sorry but we will never know since we were not there, but Tazzycat DOES seem to take every negative incident in an extremely personal way, every slight or mishap IS because of her physical disability?
111op, just for the record you do realize, don't you, that your last 8 or so posts now put YOU in the "bashing other Fodorites" category? I'm not sure why criticizing one negative and obviously prejudiced poster is any worse than bashing posters for criticizing that poster. You have made some rather nasty suppositions about why people have taken the time to criticize this original thread, and your posts fall right into the same "bashing other posters" category as those you are bashing!
What are these so called "nasty suppositions"? Have I called anyone names? I don't think so. Actually I think that I've been quite polite. I've not used any capital letters in my posts beyond what's necessary. I've adopted quite a civil tone.
Now I've written that I don't want to be friends with these people, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Is that a crime?
But feel free to give me some stock tips though.
By the way, I'm staying away from this thread now. I was banned once before, and I've no intention of being banned again. It's not worth my time to get into these silly fights, especially at the cost of being banned, as I do have travel questions I want to ask from time to time.
I don't really have much else to add anyway. It's clear that this is the sort of thing that people have strong opinions, and you can't change people's minds on this.
Good luck.
Honestly, I've read through this entire thread more than once now, and apart from one single poster who called the OP an idiot and a moron, I don't see anything remotely close to some kind of "bashing cult." There have been innumerable threads on Fodors that were way, way more nasty than this. Lots of folks here presented well-reasoned and measured responses.
Some people have alarmingly thin skins.
So, St Cirq, you missed 'Troll Alert', and 'This post needs to be sent to the garbage'.
And 'I feel this is a troll'.
And ''reminds me of the Little Britain character who jumps out of the wheelchair every time his caregiver turns his back.''
And 'I can smell trolls 10km away.''
And 'This bogus post (registered here for the first time just to bash Turkey) borders on hysterically funny if not only bizarre.''
And 'It's one thing to have negative comments about a destination but really quite another to be telling giant, big furfies like this OP''
And ''I contend it was probably her attitude and like the man I spoke about was truly an ugly American.''
And ''it's absolutely implausible that she was treated with such disgust and contempt"
And ''Being in a wheelchair does not excuse someone for being a bigot''
Since this comment was mine, I feel compelled to respond:
"Being in a wheelchair does not excuse someone for being a bigot"
I'll stand by that statement. And sorry, but like it or not -- saying "I will never go to Muslim country again" is a BIGOTED remark. Especially when the poster did not offer one single reason why being a Muslim had anything in the world to do with any of her experiences. Period.
The OP has condemned an entire country using their religion to do so -- what is YOUR definition of bigotry?
But the fact that she went to a Muslim country at all clearly shows she isn't bigoted. A bigot wouldn't go in the first place if they were 'anti-muslim'.
Her decision not to return to a muslim country is based on her own experiences whilst in Turkey - not on pre-existing prejudice. They may not be typical, experiences, and they may having nothing to do with the religion at all - but they are her own experiences and opting not to possibly expose herself to that sort of thing again doesn't make her a bigot.
Wow. You and I totally disagree on that one.
The OP did NOT say "I will never go to Turkey again". She said "I will never go to a Muslim country again".
If you can't understand the difference, I really can't help you.
Maybe the OP's reference to Muslim was to the culture, not to the religion.
And if you can't read properly - I specifically said 'her decision not to return to a muslim country' - then I really can't help you, either, Patrick.....
We've done a fair amount of travelling in europe over the past 7 years. I would not consider Turkey ever... when my son asked why I told him "two words...Midnight Express". It may have culture and history but its also barbaric, chauvinistic and oppressive. Why spend my carefully saved dollars in a place that I see as disgusting and dirty?
But RM67, she (and you) wasn't talking about not returning to a specific Muslim country -- but to any Muslim country.
Are you honestly saying that it wouldn't be bigoted if someone went to Atlanta, was treated badly by a few individuals and then posted "I will never go to another city with a lot of black people"? And are you saying if they went to Atlanta at all then obviously they couldn't be bigoted to begin with since they already knew there were black people there? That sure seems to be what you're saying about this case!
Well, RM67, you've proven my point admirably.
If you find those comments to represent "a bashing cult," I'm surprised you have the stomach to read and post here.
It's astonishing to me that you would find comments, designed to take issue with a single poster, such as "troll alert" offensive and yet apparently think nothing of blanket and untrue statements, designed to smear an entire country like "Turkish toilets are just a hole in the floor, and you have to bring your own paper and hope for a running faucet afterwards" and " All the cars look like shit, with dents, one headlight, which they do not use at night, no brakes, no brakelights, and doors held on with bungie cords. All driving fast the wrong way down one-way streets made for horsecarts."
"Troll alert" seems pretty reasonable to me.
For gods sake Patrick can you NEVER admit when you are wrong?
I specifically said 'any muslim country'. It's the post right above yours. And that's exactly what I meant. Why on earth are you trying to claim I must have meant something different. Is it because apologising is just so alien or repugnant to you?
I think the OP has overreacted to an unpleasant experience and is foolish to automatically discount visiting any other muslim country in future. But I think her ire is understandable in light of her treatment. She is wound up and ranting about a bad experience - it isn't the same as being bigoted.
Perhaps now I've answered your interrogation, you or St Cirq would like to comment on the fact that it was claimed nothing offensive, outside of the one moron post, had been said to or about the lady. Because I don't see my question being answered...
Tell you what St Cirq, I'll post those sort of comments or allegations on your trip reports or advice, and then see if you think they're harmless. Does that sound ok?
>>>We've done a fair amount of travelling in europe over the past 7 years. I would not consider Turkey ever... when my son asked why I told him "two words...Midnight Express". It may have culture and history but its also barbaric, chauvinistic and oppressive. Why spend my carefully saved dollars in a place that I see as disgusting and dirty?<<<
I answered to OP´s post about 100 posts back. I told that I have been to Turkey something like 10 times (aproximately 4 months in total), and I have found Turkish men in general to be gentlemen.
cmeyer54´s just forced me make another comment. How can anybody see some country as "disgusting and dirty" without even visiting? Based on a movie? A MOVIE! That is just too thick. Turkey is not dirty. It is a beutiful, varied country with rich culture, nice people, good food and lots to do and see.
And to OP: Turkish toilets are clean and 100% western. The only squat toilet I have come across was at Izmir bus station 15 years ago. The toilet part in OP´s post just made it even more unbelievable.
Feel free to post anything you like on my trip reports, RM.
I apologize profusely. Yes, I did miss that you specifically said "any Muslim country", so yes I am WRONG on that an I am not afraid to admit it.
So why was I claiming you were saying something different than you were saying? Because I couldn't imagine that you were actually defending someone avoiding or slamming ALL Muslim countries because of a bad experience in one country that just happened to be Muslim. But I guess you were! So yes, I was wrong in what I assumed you were saying. It's still just astounding to me that anyone would or could justify such an attitude.
So I do see what you are saying. You think there is nothing wrong with someone going to a specific place and then claiming she will never go to any other country with the same religion as that country, (even if religion had nothing to do with the problems she encountered there -- as you, yourself mentioned it may not). OK. Yes. I see your point. But I still call such attitudes bigoted. You may simply call it "over reacting". I call it bigotry. Pure and simple. Those will remain our separate interpretations.
Now that this has been resolved, can we shift our attention back to the Canadian me-generation fellow stuck in Norway? It's more fun to pick on an aggressive know it all than the stressed out OP of this thread.
Please, please, to anyone reading this thread who has not been to Turkey: I beg you NOT to judge Turkey based on the movie Midnight Express. You couln't be more off base.
I've decided not to visit the Southern States because of Deliverance..
Shocking comment on Turkey from poster above.
lucy_d, I hate to disagree, but I think a person could be more off base. You could base your decision on the original thread here -- far worse and more misleading than the picture of life in a Turkish prison! Or at least a view which would be more likely to affect travelers (most people don't really worry about what goes on inside prisons).
One reading this thread would think that there are no such things as real toilets in Turkey, running water is a rarity, people routinely spit at or dump cigarette ashes on the diabled, all cars are rusted and all drivers are wild people who won't even turn on their lights at night, if you breathe into a piece of police equipment you are likely to get diseases, and that any country which is Muslim should be avoided! Even if all the things mentioned by the poster really did happen -- that still is a totally "off base" description of the real Turkey.
"One reading this thread would think that there are no such things as real toilets in Turkey .."
"Do you get it yet?"
NP - do you give readers any credit for being able to sort through a post, accepting some of it and rejecting much of it?
Never mind actually.
I think my favorite part of this post was this sentence: "The Turks drive almost twice the speed limit, drive backwards through intersections and on ramps..."
"Now that this has been resolved, can we shift our attention back to the Canadian me-generation fellow stuck in Norway?"
He's not stuck in Norway - he wants to be there. The problem is Norway wants to kick him out.
cmeyer54 - I cannot believe you would use Midnight Express as an example of a reason not to go to Turkey. Do you plan on leaving Turkey with 10 pounds of hashish strapped to your stomach? No? Then you have nothing to worry about.
Add my name to the list of people who loved Turkey and will definitely go back. I spent 2 weeks there in 2002 and it was by far the best trip I've ever taken. My parents used to live in Turkey in the late 60's and have been back twice since then. Someday we plan on taking a big family trip there. Every person I've talked to that has been to Turkey says it was one of their best trips.
Yes, the men stare. A lot. You get used to it after awhile. But they don't make the women wear burquas or anything of the sort, so I'm mystified as to why you would think the country is "barbaric, chauvinistic and oppressive". It is a modern secular country where the women have far more freedoms than other countries in the Middle East. The men go out of their way to help you with your bags etc.
Yes, I encountered many squat toilets, some of which were not that clean. So what? Do your research and come prepared with hand sanitizer and your own toilet paper and you're good to go.
Yes, the driving is insane. The scariest car rides in my life were in cabs in Istanbul. This is true in many countries. I would never want to drive in Paris either, after seeing the chaotic traffic circles.
All these things are part of the adventure of traveling and experiencing life in other countries, not reasons to avoid a country.
Turkey has the most amazing history, cultural sights, food, and the nicest people. I think you need to talk to someone who has actually been there before you dismiss the entire country because of a movie made 30 years ago.
>"barbaric, chauvinistic and oppressive"
The judicial system is just that!
Well, another country overseas has a similar problem.
Patrick, Agreed. Yes, perhaps I should have said "You are way off base."
Never once was I unable to find a Western toilet. Sometimes, both were available, but there was always running water, and they were clean. Wait, I am wrong,now that I think about it, I was in a restaurant in Konya, one of the most religiously conservative cities in Turkey, and there was no Western toilet. The staff observed me heading to the ladies' room, and stopped me. Someone motioned that I may prefer the men's room where there was a western toilet and offered to "stand guard" while I used that one. Is that not genuine hopsitality????
Here's another example of Turkish hospitality: My traveling companion and I were attempting to order lunch at an outdoor cafe in Antalya. The server spoke no English. A Turkish gentleman also dining there left his table, approached our's and asked in English if he could be of service. He explained the menu, spoke to the server and engaged us in conversation. He was a professional guide, recognized us as Americans and wanted to talk to us and help us. He was most helpful and genuinely interested in why we were visiting Turkey and the cities we had seen. Apparantly, Turkey gets only a fraction of American visitors as compared to German and Russian. The Turkish people do love Americans, maybe not the U.S. government, but they can make the distinction, unlike many Americans.
Just a few points why Turkey is not the best place should you get into conflict with "the law".
You have no rights. The judge doesn't need to respect the law, but can keep you locked up indefinitively. (confirmed again not too long ago) Your lawyer may not be allowed to see you, even when you theoretically have the right.
It' just like you'd be in China or the former East Germany.
I like China, but I wouldn't want to get into conflict with the law or what people think it is.
Usually everything is fine, but don't expect better treatment only because you're a tourist or have money.
FIRST I started to feel geees what a drama and how on the earth this can happen? in Istanbul and in Turkey.....After few more lines I lost my sympathy and 99,9% this is a fake report or a report written by force! Which reminded me famous spygirl or girlspy who used to write about Turkey without a reason and saying do not go, terror etc.....
))))))
I am not always happy with my own countryman but I know one thing for sure a person who would not be nice to me 99,9% would be nice to a foreigner.......This is something everyone would agree on, I hope ?
I am happy to take this post to the attention of any official you want and follow up only if:
Names of the hotel you stayed so I can check if you were really there, 1 single picture you your braces on the wheelchair in Turkey ! Since you could not take a picture of the man from Kazakhstan you have a camera and you just could not use, right ?
One point I can make for sure; madam you can not smoke in the tram or train in Turkey even we are well known with our Tobacco and smoking habits, funny enough public places are non smoking ( mostly ) airports, buses, public transport for SURE, so I wonder where the ashes came on you while someone was going out of the train !!!!!! and used you as personal ashtray....Scenario was not really well thought...you need some more exercise to make on writing....
Why people were spitting on you ? Were they camel like looking blocks or Lama's.....????
Why did you not call your car rental company to seek assistance; are they not exist or did you forget the contract at home ? Can we get the picture you take from the bus hit your car and you managed to get a shot?
As for the history and you are the one interested in; Istanbul has not been controlled by numerous groups, we call them ancient civilizations or Emperors like Byzantium or Ottoman !!!!!!!!!!
I will not make a comment on how nice Greek museums and Turkish museums
Just a statement; not all the woman in full black suits are Turkish, we do receive great number of visitors fro other parts of the world as well and yes you may see people conservatively dressed or with miniskirts too. That's Istanbul. Trust me between 15.000.000 people you have everything and that's normal.
Neanderthal !!!! Yes we had them too some thousands years ago... But this does not give you ANY right to humiliate a nation, sorry that's too much !!!!
There is a comment about Turkish people hiding their disable community; this could be right to some respect but not anymore...also local municipalities are paying greater attention for those challenged with abilities to make life more easier.....
The holes you mentioned called toilets were not existing in Europe couple of hundred years ago, check it our for example French palaces and figure out what was used instead of that hole; and believe me once in need the hole is great blessing to find.... Besides we have other toilets as well.
I am surprised about the hotel you were in, any chance to get the name where you were kept waiting in the row ?
There are so many points to question but really I do not waste more time of the readers who wants to know real facts about Turkey.
Turkish man never goes full naked in Hamam's for the record !
Bus stations are all have toilets, otherwise little green you found would be full with many others left overs. Turkish people uses both left or right hand while eating making use of both if they may ? Obviously you have been eating from street vendors and that's natural when serving they can use their both hands especially while smoking. If this was bothering you why not going to one Non Smoking?
We are not great drivers and obeying rules at traffic is the only critic I will accept out of whole book you wrote....
"If the Bush administration can treat anyone suspected of anything like the way prisoners are treated in Abu Girab and Gitmo, what can we expect in a country such as Turkey, which has such a wonderful human rights record?" What more do you know about Turkey to use the phrase above so what do you want to expect from SUCH COUNTRY LIKE TURKEY ! Everyone is responsible from their own administration as you are ambassador of your own country, please do something about it since you are back home......
Finally I will say 3 more things:
1- Last paragraphs you wrote are all very insulting and not nice.
2- You must have watch midnight express so many times so your phantasy is misleading you.
3- I may sound a bit harsh, not intended too, but if you PROVE half what you claim I will owe you a BIGGG apology and will offer you a week in Turkey everything included and I will be honored to drive you around Personally to forgive me and pay an apology on behalf of my fellow countryman....
Happy Travelling,
Murat
Murat
I was hoping you would read and comment on this post. You have helped me and so many others here on Fodors when we planned our trips to your country and I, again, thank you. I am sorry this poster made such outrageous comments.
Hi CD,
good to hear from you and thank you....I just could not hold myself not to reply even I know it's just a slander on Turkey, but she did not pick the right argument. Hospitality still is our biggest asset in our country even before the rich history.....Just back from 9 days travel in and out of the country otherwise I would have written much earlier as you have guessed well
All the best,
Murat
Murat. Thank you. I've thought of you too and hoped you would respond. You are always so helpful and accommodating ... this report must have been difficult to read. We're looking forward to our trip to Turkey very much ... everything we've read indicates it's going to be a wonderful experience!
Hi NLspirit,
I am sure you will have great time and let me know if any help needed.
I hope it will be a wonderful experience and pls. share your thoughts later with us
Have a nice day,
Murat
I am not saying this as a negative comment, but Turkish men DO stare at women (at least a lot does).
Hi Murat,
Um, I might have had a bad trip to Turkey too - is your offer good to drive me around too?
Just kidding!!
I am going to Turkey this spring though for the 2nd time and can't wait. First time I only spent the day in Ephesus so I don't think that counts. This time it's Istanbul and someplace undecided - pretty and scenic by the water?
Sorry about this thread. These things can be hurtful.
gruezi
Thank you, Murat!!! I, too, was waiting on your response.
I have a feeling, though, that we won't see Tazzycat here again.
Hi Murat,
Clare here - it was lovely to meet you and your wife in Urgup. The car your organised was fantastic and didn't miss a beat.
We actually thought driving standards in Turkey were quite good - maybe they are just pretty bad in Australia!
Anyway, I've posted a trip report that will contradict just about everything the OP has stated.
We loved your country Murat and had the most wonderful time - particularly meeting the Turkish people who were only ever warm, friendly and helpful!
Stormbird
Call me a bigot, I don't give a crap.
But I won't go to any Muslim country. Neither will I go to anywhere ruled by a dictator, or Columbia or Mexico or severely poor 3rd world nations. I know there are many wonderful people in all of these places but that doesn't matter. I'll simply go elsewhere on my future travels. I can't see it all anyway so these are some of the places I'll miss, big deal.
I have absolutely no desire to spend my time or money in all kinds of places. The world is huge and I'll die having seen and been to only a small part of it, so will most of you.
I also won't do internet searches on someone to prove they're a troll or research their posting history like that makes your lame point more valid.
And for all of you who use the illogical argument that it didn't happen to you so Tazzy needs to research better or try again or take an escorted tour next time or any other bullcrap backhanded advice, get over yourself. Your experiences have absolutely no relationship to anyone else's. You are not so important that you set a standard for the rest of us. Talk about narcissistic overload.
When I read her trip report I took away that she genuinely had a bad experience and won't go back--end of story, SO WHAT?
Without a doubt the irony of nearly all these negative posts is they reflect far uglier character traits on those responding than anything anyone could ever say about Tazzycat.
It isn't a case of "it didn't happen to you".
Years ago a report like the original one might have been taken seriously and might have caused people to avoid Turkey,
However, for Pete's sake, many Europeans and an increasing number of Americans are visiting the place and they know that all Turkish cars are not rust buckets with bits dropping off and they know that bus stations have public lavatories attached.
As for the hostility, we'll never know, will we?
If the OP spent a lot of time screaming abuse at people, I suppose that she did draw a bit of attention.
I must say that if I saw a woman squatting to urinate in a public place and she proceeded to scream abuse at me, I'd assume that she was a drunken bag lady. I don't blame the Turkish bloke for drawing a cop's attention to her.
Parrothead, comeon now. There is a huge difference between saying "I never saw a lot of toilets in Turkey that were just holes in the ground" and knowing that it isn't true that's what all of them are. Many of the points here simply made no sense. "All the cars in Turkey are rust?" Again, that's not a matter of "what I saw/what she saw" -- it's simply a very gross exaggeration on the part of the poster.
There have been many posts about negative things in Turkey, and I do not respond to them. I realize that some things there may not be for everyone. But that is NOT what this post was. It was a bigoted rant starting with someone judging an entire nation (no, actually judging the rest of the world, too) BECAUSE of its religion and then not giving a single reason how religion played into any part of it.
You started your post with "Call me a bigot". OK, I will, because your post definitely shows you are one, right alone with the OP! Judging an entire nation automatically because of what religion they practice IS bigotry. It is no different than judging a car full of people by the color of their skin, or refusing to eat next to a person of a different race, or refusing to visit Italy because it is Catholic.
Parrothead, here's the one item that you posted we can agree on:
"When I read her trip report I took away that she genuinely had a bad experience and won't go back--end of story, SO WHAT?"
I can't imagine why people are up in arms about someone with whom they have differing opinions/experiences (especially someone they don't know).
The vehemence with which she wrote her comments shocked me because they are the complete opposite of my experience in Turkey on a solo trip. I LOVED Turkey and even if I didn't, I wouldn't write a report like that. But, so what ... I'm not running her life or her mind. Surely for such a well-traveled group as what posts here, it isn't the first exposure to contrary viewpoints. I am somewhat surprised at some of the reaction.
To each his or her own, and no one else has to like it.
.....When truth is violated there is a need to defend it.
Neo,
You prove my point. Just a suggestion but it may be time to get another rabies booster.
http://www.fodors.com/contest/turkey/
Perhaps Tazzycat has some interesting photos to share!
Tazzycat posted on Lonely Planet
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/message.jspa?messageID=14373856#14373856
"I lived in Saudi Arabia for 6 months, and never saw even one disabled person." - it was a note in her question about disability travel in Turkey.
I don't understand why Turkey is so bad in her opinion, Saudi Arabia treats women better or what?
".....When truth is violated there is a need to defend it."
cd, I hear you. But, unfortunately, it's Tazzycat's "truth" of her experiences. I guess it's just not in my nature to try to rally against such an obdurate opinion. But I do find it extremely hurtful to see such harsh opinions about a country and people that I found to be the most welcoming, helpful, kind, and generous of my travels.
So, Chicago_Heather. If someone posted this, you'd be perfectly happy with it -- including the opening part?
"I will never visit a city with a high population of blacks again. I went to Chicago. It was vile and dirty. People spit at me and made nasty comments. Everyone drove like idiots backwards on the streets. There is practically no running water in public restrooms if you can even find them."
Sorry, but I'd find that post almost as bigoted and offensive as the one we are discussing here. Race or religion has NOTHING to do with either.
Chicago Heather
I think you are a very kind person to state that this account is Tazzycats 'truth'. I, and others judge that this is not truth. There is no way I beleive any of these charges made by Tazzycat. Her truth, I judge, is delusional.
I think it is rude for a brand new poster to put something so inflamatory on this forum and never return.
She came back once on 10/24 at 2:45.
Sure, she came back once. When someone goes to the trouble of registering just to make a very long, bigoted and inflammatory tirade about a nation and its religion, surely that person will come back to see if the effort got the desired result. In this case, the poster found out it did.
Of course there is always the >possibility< that Tazzycat is like dozens and dozens of other posters -- with us before and still with us but using other names. When someone rants so outrageously as this one did, they are probably smart to use a new name.
I can't believe this thread is still going. Can someone summarize the last 100 posts or so?
What's the complaint du jour now?
There is none.
Then how come it's still going? Isn't the horse dead?
"Then how come it's still going?"
Ummm. Because some posters have actually posted twice more within 16 minutes in the last half hour?
Why add "in the last half hour"? Isn't that redundant?
I think posts should be more concise and less speculative.
No, it isn't redundant. Posting "twice within 16 minutes" could have happened yesterday which wouldn't have had anything to do with why the thread is still running. Posting "twice within 16 minutes in the last half hour" DOES explain why the thread is still (currently) running. OK? I really DO mean what I say.
Yes.
One very positive point: this thread sure did get a lot of responses!
UH, oh! Yikes! Now you've gone and done it Chicago_Heather. You better watch out for the board patrol. How dare you say
"But I do find it extremely hurtful to see such harsh opinions about a country and people that I found to be the most welcoming, helpful, kind, and generous of my travels."
How dare you call all other nations of the world inferior to your highest regard for Turkey. Using NeoPavlov's logic you must be a pathological bigot to judge all other places so lowly and to relegate the vast populations of the remainder of the world less welcoming, helpful, kind and generous than the Turks.
The next post will probably be Suze counting how many times you've posted in the past and then determining if your opinion is worthy of consideration after she applies her voodoo arithmetic calculations.
This is precious, you can't make this stuff up.
No actually I was going to ask you why you wouldn't go to Mexico?
Parrothead, now you're just being silly. None of that babbling you just did has ANYTHING to do with anything I said.
Do you honestly not get the idea that saying ALL Muslim countries should be avoided because of the actions of a few people in one country that happen to be Muslim, even though their actions had nothing to do with their religion? Is that thought really too complex for you or do you just like to totally twist words and insult people for fun? I've already clearly said I couldn't care less if someome dislikes the country or even the people they run into. My point is BLAMING the dislike on their religion. The bigotry has nothing to do with liking or disliking a place or the people there -- it only has to do with judging the entire world by skin color, religion, or some other superficial trait.
By the way, your calling me NeoPavlov does make some sense. I post and you immediately begin to salivate and jump in for the kill. That really does remind me of ringing a bell and the dog immediately going wild.
What I find almost impossible to make up is the deep-seated racism and bigotry evidenced here, on a travel board of all places.
You'd think the Parrotheads and Tazzycats of this world would either slink away and post their fanatical rants in places where folks don't typically converge to exchange reasoned views of other cultures - or just not post at all.
Frankly, it scares me that there are people out there with such teeny, tiny minds and hearts.
St.Cirq, I know what you mean. When the above mentioned poster posts anti-Semitic and homophobic messages as well as racial slurs -- it's pretty clear they would defend other bigots. And then they would take to task anyone who dared point out their blatant bigotry!
But Mexico???????
Sorry I forgot to read the group-think manifesto.
NeoCirq, Truth is you have no idea why I won't travel to a Muslim country or any of the other places I mentioned. You simply made broad and ugly assumptions and then heaped on slurs like racist and bigot. Then it's inferred that I have the tiny mind, that I twist words and my reasoning skills are suspect.
This says more about you than me.
But Muslim countries vary greatly. Why would you deem countless Muslim countries as not worthy of visiting unless you are stereotyping the whole religious group?
I'm not trying to get into the middle of this debate, but I do think its wrong to make vast generalizations about a whole group or entire countries without ever having stepped foot in one. I mean Bosnia is mostly a Muslim country. Do you think of Bosnia in the same way you think of, say, Saudi Arabia?
Tracy
Re: Parrothead
Although I don't agree with everything he said, overall it was one of the best posts I've ever read on any forum. The responses to the Tazzycatt says more about the narrow mindedness of the responders than it does about her. Like parrothead, I see it as one person's experience with no deeper meaning.
The vicious attacks and attempts at psychoanalyzing motives shows real mental problems in the people who responded. What got me the most most, is the people same people who make the attacks then wonder why she wouldn't want to come back and respond.
This thread also demonstrates one reason why travel discussion forums like this have so little value. If she had made on long post about absolutely wonderful everything was, she would have gotten a flood of response about what a great trip report. See people on travel forums are only allowed to love everything. As parrott head says, groupthink runs amok here, as does the belief that anyone who has a had a different experience is a liar with sinister mostives.
I also have no problem with other people deciding not to give their dollars to a government that they dislike for whatever reason. Its his money and he can do what he likes with it. I had no problem going to Turkey, even though it is a Muslim country. But I wouldn't never go to most arab countries. When Dubai banned an Israeli tennis player from entering the country for a touranment, I found that plenty of justification for crossing them off any travel plans. That's my choice and if some else doesn't like, well that just too bad.
One more thing. Whether authentic or not, the post is highly revealing because it brought to full power the most unpleasant parts of this and other internet sites - and about people in general. I used read about the pogroms, mob racial attacks, religious wars and genocides in books and wonder how that could happen. I believed that it's all in the past, at least in the Western World. Seeing the viciousness of the attacks on "heretical" beliefs from people with a different worldview, the attempts to ascribe evil motives to persons holding those beliefs, to mob mentality, I can see that human nature hasn't change and that there is still a large segment of people who would do it again, given the right circumstances.
Another troll "...appared," on the horizon, after two years, "tiny and insignificant." (the quotation is, i think, from a pornographic novel possibly called,'.....with no bodies' or such, from the 'Travelers Companion Series' in Paris, published in the late fifties or early sixties. This was the publisher of Henry Miller books, at that time, when they were banned everywhere else.)
It is also interesting to note the name of the publisher.
Nothing I can believe, I agree with Murat and otherchelebi on this...all fake or imaginary...nothing to take serious...
I don't know why they chose to resurrect this thread but lmhornet has been a member for a long time, since January 2005.
your story is smells fish.
If you are brave enough why do not you put the dates of your
travel name of hotel etc to proff it.
Yes, a definite smell of fish.
Also if true, the people she complained about were being un-Islamic.
I quote from an Iman's website
Respect to (and Duties Towards) the Disabled
The disabled are those people who have some physical defect in their bodies which do not allow them to perform as well as others in certain aspects of life. Respect for the disabled means to treat them as normal offer them affection and help before they even ask them from us.
The duties towards them is to look after them, i.e. provide them with whatever they need to live as normal a life as is possible, since under the skin, they are no different to the rest of us. One should not pity the disabled, because they do not want pity. They are as good as you and me, and what they need is a bit of extra consideration. If you pity them, then they will feel inferior. We should treat them as equals.
Firstly, I want to say I deplore bigotry and generalizations about any race or culture. Being a religious person myself, or more correctly, a person who respects the Bible, I feel the same about prejudice or persecution against anyone regardless of whether I share their views or not. I agree that posting just to write something so inflammatory is a bit weird and I am not excusing Tazzycat.
I don't know, or have anyway of really knowing , if this account is true, partly true or wholly fabricated but, whatever the case, responding in kind by any humiliating terms only lowers the name callers to the same level and makes that person's stance little better.
May I say that prejudice, either real or imagined, does not automatically make one "nicer". It reminds me of a story I read about an Englishman in the 17th century who travelled to an area of an eastern land (Not Turkey , I believe!) where he was told the Caliph or Amir, or some title like that , was a despotic and vicious tyrant who made the people's lives miserable and was to be avoided at all costs. Upon arriving, he found the wealthy Amir charming and hospitable while the common people seemed surly and nasty and, to his mind, worth putting down. It was only later that he realized that the Caliph could afford to be nice... he had everything he wanted after all, but the people were so persecuted that naturally they appeared a desperate and unhappy lot .
Now I am not suggesting for one minute that this is the case with Tassycat as I know nothing about her except what I have quickly researched but I do wonder if she has struck problems in the past with being prejudiced against because she is in a wheelchair and that this may have colored her views.
Tazzycat did ask before leaving for Turkey what the view of Turkish people to the disabled might be, which to me, does indicate it was a concern to her perhaps because of previous experiences. I do not see that as an excuse to be so general in her condemnation of Muslim countries but merely as some sort of an explanation. I have a friend whose disability, while to do with mobility, is not all that obvious, but who has been roundly abused for using the Disabled Persons parking spot . Even if this type of thing only happens once , it is extremely upsetting.
I also wonder if Tassycat may be in pain and on strong medication as her reactions remind me of others in this position who come across as paranoid and unreasonable because they are in such a bad way. This may be way off track or too kindly a view but I have been a carer since I was a teenager and I have seen this sort of behavior many times due these same reasons.
I have just read another of Tazzycat's review about a cruise she did and, while she doesn't sound like the most easy going of persons, at least on this particular trip, I've travelled with worse. And I was related to them ! http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=55830
Tazzycat posted this before leaving,which indicates to me that she has not gone to Turkey with any previous dislike of Muslims.
"We hope everyone in Istanbul is safe and unhurt!
We just heard about the two explosions in Istanbul, and we hope that all of you who live there and post to the forum are safe!
Let us know."
Taz
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1632705&messageID=14373856#14373856
Here Jazzycat asks about Turkish attitudes to the disabled.
Tazzycat has also posted the same comments about her Turkish experiences here and I was amused to see that the advertisements below her Turkey comment were all advertising Turkish holidays!!!
http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Turkey/blog-337661.html
Loons 0
Trolls 220
sorry we lost this one badly!
I am pleased that Istanbul has been designated a European capital of culture for 2010, even though so many people do not want to accept it in Europe.
I LOVE Turkey! I LOVE Istanbul! I've been 3 times and would go back again in a heartbeat!
I also loved Istanbul!! We were only there 3 days but found the people wonderful!
?KERRYAJS1 on Jan 19, 10 at 10:05am
Firstly, I want to say I deplore bigotry and generalizations about any race or culture. Being a religious person myself, or more correctly, a person who respects the Bible, I feel the same about prejudice or persecution against anyone regardless of whether I share their views or not. "
This is hilarious. There is no greater font of hatred and bigotry than religious people and the bible.
I actually agree with you. But I am not like that....and you may be showing your prejudice by lumping me in with everyone else when you don't know me at all. I gather that is what you are trying to indicate about me though I will give you the benefit of the doubt as I don't know you either.
Please note - my expression "Being a religious person myself, or more correctly, a person who respects the Bible" distances me from most main stream religions as I certainly can see that it has a history of hatred. Religion is behind most of the wars and violence from time immemorial as religious leaders often don't know or teach the Bible correctly. The Bible has taught me respect for all human beings.
I think you will find most of my answer has nothing to do with religion but rather, understanding why this poster might feel the way she does and, regardless of the right or wrong of the OP, lowering ourselves to name calling and generalizations does us all no favours nor does it make our own arguments very compelling. It just makes us look as bad. But as, many other posters have questioned the religious aspect of the OP, I added that to clarify that not all people claiming to be "religious" are prejudiced.
Reluctantly returning to the urinating topic, there are cardboard cones available that allow women to "go" while standing. One of these could have made Tazzy's experience less traumatic. And they could be a remedy for the hole-in-the-floor toilets previously mentioned. Here is a link:
http://www.magellans.com/store/Health___Hygiene___HygieneTW356?Args=
love it, Tam, especially the bit that says they can be gift-wrapped! who do you know who'd like a present like that?
I keep looking at this thread like that carton of milk in the back of the refrigerator. I know it's bad but I have to try it anyway.
Hi, I'm Turkish, but I was born and brought up in Britain, I have been living in Turkey now for nearly 3 years (Im 30) I haven't read every single post on this thread, so I am sorry if I am perhaps saying something that has been said earlier.
Some things about Turkey are very different to Europe, or the developed non backwood areas of the US.
In Turkey people do stare, regardless of whether you are in a wheelchair or not. Yet Turks are accumstomed to seeing disabled people a lot more than many european countries, this is due to the soldiers that are injured in the SE of Turkey, many lose an arm a leg or both. Turkish people are not wild creatures that lock up their disabled relative. My boyfriends sister is disabled, she hasn't got any control over her motor functions, nor can she speak. She understand things perfectly though and communicates through actions.
We have been to Antalya, Istanbul, Ankara, Bodrum, Cesme, Akcay and other cities in Turkey with her. Rather than staring at her with hatred people were friendly and helpful towards her. Some stared because they felt sympathetic, others started because this was their first personal encounter with a handicapped person. I do not believe for a second people look at someone full of hate.
Perhaps Tazzycat was rude towards some of these people.
By the way, the Turkish police are terrible really, i can totally understand where Tazzy was coming from on that matter.
It seems though that Tazzy chose to spend her time in "local" places... why? Most hotels have great facilities and bus services for their customers. This would have been a smarter option.
Also the opinion about muslim countries... ehem ehem, I guess Tazzy didn't visit Beyoglu, Nisantasi, or even Taksim. I wonder how many "muslim" countries you can go to that have openly gay/lesbian/ bars that have transvestite chilling drinking beer on the streets?
Turkey is secular, the comment about muslim countries is twisted and irrelevant.
Poor Tazzy must be in a tizzy...What will she do when the thread unravels??? This thread is a waste of ether!!!
This is still one of my favorite lines from a thread:
"The man who bathed my husband was the size of a refrigerator.."
Thanks for bringing up this thread again. If one reads her report as a tongue in cheek moan and groan, it really is hilarious.
My favorite line is:
"I refused to kiss DH for three days, saying that I needed to remain healthy during his quarantine to fill out his death certificate."
I just noticed this trip review and I must comment on a couple
of points. If a person is in a wheelchair with braces on
their legs for the entire trip suddenly leave said wheelchair
on the last day while waiting for a bus to the airport to make
a trip to the weeds to crouch down to go to the bathroom?
An interesting tidbit that hasn't been commented on is her
late night conversation with the young men who had many
questions, "their first encounter with Americans who are
neither Republican or Christian". Very telling!
Telling? In what way, Xenii? I'm not following your second point.
I think her gereralization indicates a dislike for
Christians and Republicans..just my opinion. I can't
imagine why these young men she conversed with never
met any Democrats. It is possible their previous
conversations with Americans were only in passing
and their conversation with her was in depth. I
would never ask a stranger their religious or political
preferences while traveling in another country.
I certainly agree with you, Xenii, that discussions of one's political and/or religious affiliations are usually out of place in casual conversation or at table. Perhaps she doesn't like either Christians or Democrats, but then I am rather edgy around them too, when they are trying to convert me.
Well you should visit mediterrain part of Turkey next time then..
Fodorites...the Tazzycat mystery has been solved...she went to Lourdes and a miraculous recovery must have occured...see this Machu Picchu thread (not a Muslim in sight):
Be sure to scroll down..it's a short thread
http://www.fodors.com/community/south-america/have-you-done-the-machu-picchu-inca-trail-recently.cfm
But she has not reported back and for all we know, she expected wheelchair access to the ruins.
Michael..you may be right...I don't recall any wheel chair access..but it was over 20 years ago. However, if there is accessability you can bet she'd end with ..."I will never visit a South American country again!"
There is no wheelchair access to Machu Picchu. This is an
old thread. This is an old thread..perhaps before she was
wheelchair bound.
Xenii....FYI...as you can see this thread was begun by OP Tazzy in 2008, when she was in Turkey in a wheel chair, with leg braces, etc...the thread I refer to 4 posts above was written in spring 2010...so either she was miraculusly cured and fully fit again, or expected wheelchair access in MP...which you verify is not available...and as I also said, was not available 20 years ago.
Then again...so what...the OP is indeed whacko...why are we wasting our time to begin with. I avoid the Lounge for this very reason.
Yes, I just noted the date. I hope that she has experienced
a miracle. There are so many wonderful places to travel but
mobility is an issue. It seems the US is ahead of other countries in allowing the disabled to travel widely. I have
noticed this traveling through Europe and notice many hotels
do not have handicapped accessable rooms..some suggest if you
need a handicapped room you look for other hotels. This is
unheard of in the US.