Best Route to Take Through Europe

I would drop all of the outliers--Isreal, Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal--and concetrate on centro Europe. You still will not have enough time for that.

I meant to add to start in London and end in Rome. Plan on 5 days each in those cities plus Prague. There is 15 days. In the other 45 days plan on 15 other destinations. Have fun !

How early in the summer will you arrive? If you are thinking of some Mediterranean areas (in Italy, France, Spain, and CERTAINLY Greece and Israel), I'd go as early in your trip as possible because it gets HOT HOT HOT in summer. If you can go early in June or even late in May, you're better off than traveling in July and August.

That said, my general strategy is to fly to the farthest destination and work my way back. I think Israel, in particular, might have to wait for another trip; and because you can only travel between Greece and most of the rest of your planned countries by ferry or plane, you might want to make that optional too, nice though it is.

Not to mention that unless things have change considerably since I lived in Germany, a whole heck of a lot of Europe (Germany, France, Austria, Italy)is on vacation for pretty much the entire month of August .... LOTS AND LOTS of people, lonnnnnnger lines, lOTS and LOTs of people ......

Drop Greece and Israel and save them for your next adventure. Add Austria and follow a route similar to this -
start in the Netherlands followed by Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, France, Spain, Portugal, England and end your trip in Ireland. Reverse the order if it makes more sense based on the weather.

Unless Spain and Portugal are your dream destinations, you may want to save them for another time also. This would leave you visiting 9 countries in less than 9 weeks which would still be a whirlwind adventure.

I think freetoroam's itinerary makes the most sense, possibly flying into Amsterdam and out of Dublin.

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I appreciate the feedback and the advice about adding and dropping places!

However, part of the reason I am going to Israel is to visit family, so it's not really negotiable.

I guess my real question is how to make all of these places fit with the smartest route to take...I've been to a few of these places already, so I don't need a full week in some of them.

I know everyone has opinions and places they think people should see, but I'm pretty set on my destinations, it is just a matter of making the travel make sense. I've already gotten roundabout figures for travel (flight to London, flight from Rome to Athens, Athens to Israel, and Israel home - and I have found decent airfares (less than $2000 for all 4 flights!)

So, if anyone has a suggestion as to how to make this work (where to start, what order to see places in, etc), that would be AWESOME!!!

Thanks!

First - trying to do 12 countries in 2 months is way too much. that is 6 countries per month or a grand total of 4 days per country - not city but COUNTRY. (Yo have to allow for travel days in between.) This will allow you tim to see one city in each - and you will spend a fortune in traveling from one country to another.

Suggest you cut the number of countries in half and allow yourself to see more than one city per country. For instance in Italy you might want to do more than just spend 4 days in Rome. You might want to see Florence or Venice - you might want to to visit the shore (Amalfi coast or the Cinque Terre) or see some of the Tuscan countryside. To do a couple of these you will need 2 weeks just for Italy.

Assuming you plan on traveling by train - please get a map - figure out your must see places and how long it takes to see something (you can view the Eiffel Tower in 5 minutes but it will take 3 hours to get tickets), ascend and actually see all of Paris. Then go to the bahn.de site and check out travel times/options (it will give prices only for Germany, but has the best schedule info for all of europe).

"By the way, time is only a small factor, I am going for 2 months!"

That is a serious miscalculation IMO. Your time is too short to cover that much territory. Honest. 60 days sounds like a lot - but it isn't when you are traveling all around a large continent plus Israel.

To cover that much ground (and actually see anything) would take well more than 3 months.

Think about it - - - - Even w/ just a week in each country (which is crazy in some of those places) You'd need a minimum of 12 weeks. But you can't "see" Ireland in a week, or England, or France, or Italy, etc etc.

Now, if you only went to London, Dublin, Paris, Rome, Munich, Athens and so on. Just one major city in each country and no other bits. No countryside, no islands, no coastal villages. Nothing but one city in each country -- you could just fit it into 2 months. 60 days less approx 10 days total travel time between destinations would leave you 50 days. 50 days for 12 cities = 4+ days in each city/country.

Will not comment on how much you will actually see of each country since others have done that already.

If you started in London and went to Dublin next, I'd fly any budget airline from Ireland to Amsterdam and pick up the rail itinerary from there.

If you started in Dublin you could ferry to London (well, not directly, I know), and take Eurostar to Brussels, and then another train to Amsterdam. (That way you could even include another country: Belgium. I'd do that on a Tuesday. Belgium looks best on tuesdays).

Train AMS-Berlin-Dresden-Prague-Munich-Switzerland-Paris-South of France-Spain-Portugal. Railway connections will become a bit tricky at the Southern end of the Iberian peninsula, so you might have to add a bus at some point.

Fly budget Portugal (or South of Spain) to Northern Italy.

Train Italy-(Ferry)-Greece.

Fly GR-Israel.

Using the flights you mention and the countries you want to visit as a given, I offer the following as a possibility:
Via train – London/France/Switzerland/Czech Republic/Germany/Netherlands
Via air – Amsterdam to Madrid
Via train – Spain/Portugal
Via air – Lisbon to Roma

For intra-Europe flights, I usually use the low cost airline EasyJet [operates like Southwest]. Visit the following link to check out their route map - http://www.easyjet.com/EN/routemap/ .
You might want to look at RyanAir http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/dests.php?flash=chk for travel between London and Ireland.

Enjoy your adventure.

There are many more cheap flights than the ones above, although they are the two biggest budget carriers in Europe.

Don't forget to look at:
BMI Baby
aerlingus
germanwings
airberlin

and many more.

whichbudget website is not a bad website for listing cheap flights but it's not all encompassing.

"I know everyone has opinions and places they think people should see, but I'm pretty set on my destinations."

Just so you understand something, there are several threads (in the Lounge) where frequent posters express some exasperation at questioners who get detailed, careful answers and then disregard them and say they want to do what they want to do. Be careful about this.

Your original question said, in effect, "here's what I want to do, tell me what you think, am I crazy?" You got answers to that question and then you said, "well, I'm doing it anyway."

I understand that what you really wanted was a routing to string together the destinations, but it really wasn't clear that - for example - Israel's "not really negotiable."

Your comment about "everyone's got their opinions" suggests you don't really understand that that's what you asked for, and that's what you are going to get when you ask people for advice. ...

My opinion is that you got some good advice given what you seemed to be asking, and that as you've already found out, trying to untangle all the possible routes and connections is hard work -- that's why you asked for help here. If you want people to do that hard work for you, be clear at the outset about what your limitations are and be graciously open to the answers you get. Many posters have gone out of their way here, particularly the ones who posted after your Sat. post.

Just sayin' .... You are lucky to have the time and money for this trip - enjoy it! All of it!

For a 2-month wide-ranging trip yes the Global 2-month Eurailpass is a no-brainer - if you travel as much as pre-visioned and i had done several such trips - great sources of info on train travel in Europe - www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com and for Switzerland www.swisstravelsystem.com - for train schedules i always use the German Rail web site, which has schedules for trains all over Europe - www.bahn.de.

I hear what you're sayin, soccr. And you're right!

After some mapping out and careful consideration, I've decided to scratch Israel for this trip. Next on the agenda - Israel, Turkey, Petra, and Egypt.

So, here's what I have come up with for Europe, and now I REALLY do want your opinions about what I have come up with!


fly to Athens (wouldn't arrive til 2 days later...ugh) - plan to go to Santorini and also, if I can swing it, Crete and Corfu
fly Athens to Prague - probably will spend 2 days here

The remainder of the trip will be on Eurail, but here's the general idea.....

Prague to Vienna - spend a day or so in Vienna....not too amped on seeing Vienna, but if I have to pass through there, might as well stop
From Vienna, make a loop through Italy: (my stay in Italy will be the longest time in any country...I'm actually looking to take just about 2 weeks there because it's my favorite place in the world, even having seen only Rome and Florence already)

Vienna to Venice
Venice to Florence
Florence to Rome
Rome to Pisa
Pisa to Genoa
Genoa to Milan

From Milan, traipse through the south of France, spending a day in Nice and then traveling on to part of Spain

Nice to Barcelona (that's an overnight train ride)
Barcelona to Granada
Granada to Sevilla
Sevilla to Lisbon (yes, I know this is Portugal...just go with it, but this is another overnight train ride...and then some)

Lisbon back to Madrid (then back into central France - maybe stop in Lyon, or another overnight train into Geneva)

Geneva to Bern
Bern to Zurich
Zurich to Munich (this will be another overnight train - can't find travel time, but it's a good distance)

Munich to Frankfurt
Frankfurt to Berlin
Berlin to Amsterdam
Amsterdam to The Hague
The Hague to Rotterdam (The Netherlands is going to be a quick jaunt....2 or 3 days in Amsterdam, 1 day max between the Hague and Rotterdam)

Rotterdam to Paris
Paris to London
London to Dublin & Cork
Back to London

London back to LA

So, that's the string of travel I have come up with. I think I was so confused before because I was looking at going to one country, seeing the entire place and then onto the next. That didn't make sense, however, so I am passing in and out of France and Spain so that I can see all of Spain and also make it to Lisbon!

I'm sorry for being a baby about all your suggestions! I really do appreciate the help! As fun as the planning is, it's also very stressful, and I appreciate your opinions and knowledge!

Thanks again!

My biggest critic of your new itinerary is that you are only focusing on the major cities, there's so much more to see than the major cities. Also, there is no way you can cover that much ground in 8 weeks and actually SEE the places you'll be going to. You need twice as long, or to omit half your destinations.

Look at the size of Italy, you plan on spending two weeks there, look at the size of the other destinations, do you really think 6 weeks is sufficient to see these places?

Until recently, I have never responded posts like this, I started a thread about this subject in the lounge recently, you may want to read the thread while you are planning your trip.

Not knowing where you have already visited on previous trips, can't give any advice on what to see or do. Just have a few questions and suggestions. Are you skipping Toledo and/or Segovia when you are so near there when you are in Madrid? Are you planning on seeing any of the white villages and have you allowed plenty of time to see the Alhambra in Granada? In Madrid: The Prado, the Royal Palace, any walks, etc.? In Barcelona, are you visiting the Guell Park and Sagrada Familia? Have you already made a list of the things you really want to see in each place and how much time that will take? Are you taking in places like Versailles when you are in Paris?

Believe me, I am all for seeing as much as possible. You pay a lot to travel and want to make the most of it. I am asking this because sometimes people don't really know what all there is to see or do, and in their desire to see a lot of different areas, they see the most mundane things and often miss some of the best things that are right near them. A friend told me that the best travel advice she ever got was from me. I said, "Don't try to see everything by rushing from spot to spot. Sometimes you experience a place more by sitting in one spot and letting the place move around you." Just try this in someplace like Venice. Being very still will give you a whole new appreciation for a place.

Also, have you planned any down or serendipity fun, time? Sometimes, when everything is planned down to the minute transportation wise, you can't take advantage of those experiences that add the most magic to a trip. I am just suggesting that an evening spent meeting people in a Tapas Bar or Pub, or strolling in some of the less busy areas adds a cultural experience that you don't get rushing from train to plane. Yes, you will miss seeing a few places, but give yourself the time and opportunity to meet and chat with local people. It will add experiences to your travel that money can't buy.

Once, just walking in a small, out of the way village in England, an old gentleman asked where I was from. He ended up taking DH & me home for afternoon tea in the gorgeous garden of his lovely two hundred year old home. Once wandering late in Italy, we were invited to help one couple celebrate their first anniversary. In Paris, we shared a table with a couple who helped us order food and taught us several helpful phrases. Something likes this seems to happen on every one of our trips. A couple of weeks ago, in Ireland, I was talking with a lady whose son is a jeweler. As I was leaving, she said to wait a minute. She returned with a beautifully boxed gift. It turned out to be a lovely, handmade, silver necklace. The lady collects cookbooks from different countries, so now I will send her one from the States.

I sincerely hope you don't think this is preaching. I just think there is so much more to travel than sight seeing and many people miss that. However, just a quick peek at major sights may be exactly your "cup of tea." Whatever, it is, have a wonderful trip.

I still think it is too much.

10 days in Greece, 2 weeks in Italy (the minimum to see all those places), 2 weeks in Spain/Portugal (which isn't much for all those locations), a week minimum for those bits of Germany, about 2 weeks for the bits of France, a week in Ireland (which will only let you see Dublin, Cork and a tiny bit of countryside - you'll miss all the scenic bits), A week in England -- plus travel time in between all the above. Add it up - you are already over your 2 months. And that is w/o all those other places on your list.

-- To save you the math - it equals 52 days. Plus about 8 days intra-Europe travel (yes I took into account the sleeper trains you list).

If you were to try your tour as a guided tour with all the travel and hotels and sights pre-arranged to a schedule with a tour leader to make sure everything would be co-ordinated, tickets and reservations in hand, snafus resolved, etc., just for you, I would still be against your over-ambitious plan. The theoretical guided tour would visit all your destinations, but you would see little and have time for only a tiny bit of each city. Yet, you want to do this with no one running the show. I fear you will spend 2 months figuring out train stations, checking into and out of hotels, finding anyplace to eat, and trying to figure out how to get from place to place within a city, with the actual sight-seeing as an afterthought.

Look at any guided tour company's brochure and look at the "grand tour" selection. Notice the words of art: "see" "visit" and "tour" where the first means you drive by, the second that you stop for a photo, and the third means actually seeing some of the place in the usual tourist sense. Compare what such a tour actually gets into compared with the many sights listed for a place, and realize what you'd miss on the guided tour and then realize that you are trying to do just that on your own.

I have been on only 2 guided tours in my life, the first a grand tour of Europe (a month) as my first travel outside of family vacations. A day here, two days there, busses and trains and packing and unpacking and doing underwear in the sink. Most meals, all hotels and travel fully arranged, and a very professional tour leader making sure everything worked. The second was 2 weeks in Portugal, Spain, and Morrocco, as the language and cultural fears made it unlikely thet I'd be able to do it myself. In both, the experiences were acceptable for what they were, and the grand tour set me on a course of travel lust for the last 40 years, so I am not against such tours per se. But even as a novice traveler, I saw that there were places unseen, and the places seen had far too little time for me on the schedule.

I would contrast this with what I did on my honeymoon. My bride and I had 3 weeks, tickets into London, out of Amsterdam, and 2 nights booked at a hotel on our arrival. The rest of the time we winged it. Did London, Paris, Amsterdam/Holland as we wanted at the moment and had a wonderful time. It was "Which should we do today?" rather than "What's the schedule?" Our other travels followed this model, quite successfully.

Don't shortchange yourself. If you can bring yourself to do it, set your first destination, have a railpass, and don't move on until you have seen enough of the place you are at. If you are "footloose and fancy free" and follow your whims rather than a breakneck schedule, you will stop at fewer places, see and do more things, and have a truly great time.

Then, we expect a trip report here, so take good notes!

<<so I am passing in and out of France and Spain so that I can see all of Spain and also make it to Lisbon! >>

You're not going to see much of anything of France or Spain or Portugal, never mind all of it. Frankly, I think you're delusional.

It's nuts, this itinerary. Sorry, but if you want to undertake a major expedition and just criss-cross Europe and come home and say Hey, I DID EUROPE, this is perfect. You'll be cross-eyed and sleep-deprived and have no recollection of anywhere you went, but hey, go for it.

Sassafrass and AJ - I appreciate your responses! I do plan to have some downtime, some time to go out, etc. I also do want to take time to just "take in the city" wherever I am. I know that my itinerary is ambitious. I am still perusing some books and websites to see what I want to see in various places.

I have been to London, Paris, Italy (Rome and Florence), and Greece. I was younger and don't really think I fully appreciated what I was seeing at the time! My sister and I knew what we wanted to see in the Louvre, for instance, and so we ran to those paintings/sculptures, and left. I think we "saw" the Louvre in 45 minutes. We went into the Musee D'Orsay and went "Hmm....flowers. Pretty. Next." We saw all the sites that are standard tourist fare.

For this trip, I do have plans to visit Versailles (that's one of the tops on my list for France), and I have time for the Alhambra in Granada (I haven't finished going through the Spain section in my book!). My feeling in terms of travel now that I'm older is to see the things that I can say "Yah, been there!" and on top of that, to be able to tell people about the wonderful places that they might not know about (as you described)!

As far as my schedule goes...what I listed is ideally what I would like to do. If I can swing it, I'm gonna go for it. But, once I am in Prague, I am going to be on Eurail, and have already decided that nothing is going to be set in stone. I may go to Italy, fall even more in love with the place,, and not go anywhere else until I have to get to London to fly home. I really don't know. This is a "footloose and fancy free" trip for me. The scheduled list of places I gave are my ideal trip, but the only thing I am going to have dates scheduled for are my flight into Greece, my flight to Prague, and my flight home. From there, I am going to see what I can at my leisure.

I'm doing this alone, too! My husband works 24/7 and can't commit to being away for 2 months, so he is going to try to join me in various places at different times throughout the 2 months. I have a couple friends who said they would come join me for a week at a time, so we'll see!

Of course, travel reports would come when I return (or perhaps even while I am away...although from what everyone is saying, I'm barely going to have time to breathe, let alone post on Fodor's).

Thanks for all your responses and insights. As my preparations continue, I will keep you updated!

Hi Julesua,

I'm also a socal native so I understand how you feel about wanting to see everything in Europe, especially since it seems so far away from the west coast. But really, are you sure you want to come home exhausted, broke, and feel like you need a vacation from a vacation? I'm all for the idea of a European adventure, but two months is really not enough time for you to be able to travel through all those countries as well as have some "downtime" (days when not on a train/plane/automobile). Although your itinerary is not impossible, you just might regret it for the reasons explained by the others on this forum!

I don't know if this will be your first (or hundredth!) trip to Europe, but it's very very very very likely that Europe will be there the next time you are able (and willing to) visit! So don't worry about seeing EVERYTHING...that you'll never be able to do...but think about planning a trip around your interests and budget.

Enjoy the planning process...it's all part of the ADVENTURE!

Wasn't going to make this suggestion but based on your last post, I thought why not. Instead of flying to Praque, fly to Berlin and stop in Dresden on your way to Praque. Also don't miss Cesky Krumlov on your way to Vienna.

Have fun on your adventure and as others have said be sure to take time out along the way to "smell the roses".

The train line just south of Dresden is really scenic when it goes thru Saxon Switzerland - a land along the Elbe River featuring high sandstone cliffs with fortresses like the Bastei on top of pinnacles. In fact if you want to stay a few days in Dresden a day trip into Saxon Switzerland can be great fun - in season there are boat services there from Dresden or take the train to a town like Bad Schandau, a neat resort town, and do a shorter boat trip on the river.

Sure, I'll toss my 2-cents-worth in here on your latest itinerary.

I'm a voracious sightseer, and even I'm thinking your plan is far, far too ambitious. Unless you really want to spend your precious 2 months playing "city tag-you're-it" and log a lot of time in transit, I'm thinking you're not likely to get a lot out of this trip as constituted presently.

I'm fine with devoting your time to big cities, but consider narrowing things down to a city per week over your two-month stretch to really experience the attractions, food, and people. Here's how I'd do this: start off with the eight cities you want to see most, research the attractions that interest you, and then estimate whether or not you'll need a week in each (for many of the major destinations, am thinking it's a good idea). Depending on your interests, you might consider starting off with a template of:

-Berlin
-Prague
-Vienna
-Venice
-Florence
-Rome
-Paris
-London

and then start adjusting.

I've been to all but Berlin, and with the exception of Venice and Prague, I found a week in each (including day trips) to be a perfectly good amount of time. Am hoping to go to Berlin someday, and if I do, will plan to spend a minimum of five days there. I spent about two full days in Venice and five full days in Prague and saw most everything I wanted in each. From here, you can adjust as needed -- if for example 2 days in Venice and 5 in Prague is enough, you might add in another city or two along the way.

Am also thinking adding in anything in Spain or Portugal will be tough to manage (given what I've looked at -- I've only been to Madrid and surrounding areas) you could easily spend a month or more in the Iberian Peninsula doing justice to Barcelona, Madrid, Lisbon, Seville, Cordoba, Granada, Toledo, Segovia, El Escorial, and Aranjuez.

And by the way, don't be too quick to dismiss Vienna -- I loved the city, myself.

Hi Julesua,

Europe is the best place in the world for travel freak. It has everything in a very small place. History, culture, architecture, nature, technology and much more.
The train and other travel systems are so efficient, that one is tempted to pack too many things in too little time.

I do not know how old you are. But I guess you are quite young and have a lot many years to see the world.
I think you are a Crazy Genius.

I remembered my 1st trip to Europe.
I made my 1st 35 days trip with 12 countries, doing 9 night journeys in a 21 day unlimited Eurail pass.
I laugh at myself now. But it was fun.
I thoght then that this may well be my only trip to Europe, and I wanted to see every place mentioned in Thomas Cook brochure. Who knows if I will have money and time later. And this world is so big. I needed to travel to every continet.
( I am 44 now and have made 6 trips to Europe from India since I was 21 and am planning one more this summer to turkey and Switzerland)
Now after travelling to many countries and continents, I feel..
It is better to make every trip to Europe, and explore and experience countries, cultures; rather than just seeing them.

To make the long story short... take advantage of the vast experience of your senior fellow fodorites and pick only limited places and see them nicely. Life will be gracious and will allow you many more occassions to visit Europe again and again.

My Suggestion--
Have a mix of Big cities, Lovely towns, small villages.

Drop London-- It needs a separate visa and you can do it later with Scotland.

Start from South and End up North, if you are travelling in Spring, as the weather will become better as you travel north.

1. Greece- 5 n
2. Italy- 8 Days
Rome 2 n, Florence 2 N with Pisa day trip, Milan 2N with a day trip to Portofino, Venice 2 days
3. Austria- 7 Days
3 Vienna, 3 Salzburg with a day trip to Salzkamargut, 1 innsbruck
4. Germany- 8 days ( 2 Belin, 2 Munich, 1 Romantic Strasse, 2 Rhine valley, 1 Black forest)
5. Prague- 3 days
6. Amsterdam- 3 days
7. brussels- 2 days- ( Avoid Brugges, as you would have seen Venice)
8. Paris- 3 Days
9. Switzerland- 5 days
10. Nice- 2 days
11. Spain- 9 days ( 2 Barcelona,1 Granada,3 Seville, 3 Madrid)

12. Portugal- 4 days ( 2 Lisbon, 1 Sintra, 1 Obidos)

That makes it Best of Europe 60 days Itinerary.
You can do it, but you may not absorb all.

Best luck.

This is for Paragkash on Nov 11, 09 at 5:32am

thank you, your comment is VERY helpful.

I am planning a 2012 Europe trip and will be basing it on your advice.

Thanks

Jeni - you might want to seek some new advice.

Examples;

Ask what people think of a recommendation to spend you only 2 days in Belgium in, while "avoiding" Brugge because you would have already seen Venice.

I also don't think you will find too many who recommend interrupting a short 2 night stay in Florence for a day trip to Pisa.

The recommended day trip to Portofino from Milan is 2:30 by car, or train - each way.

There's more.

Julesusa:
Now that it's July 2011...the last time you wrote anything concerning your most ambitious European trip was October,'09...did you ever take that expedition, or not? How about thanking all the kind people who responded to your original post two years ago. A report of some kind would be the proper thing to do. This kind of affront happens all too often on this forum.

stu tower

stu: Julesusa asked about a similarly nutty itinerary in Oz the following year . . . never to be heard from again. Maybe she succombed in the Outback

. . . or was committed . .

janis...great comment...those kangaroos are not to be toyed with.