Belgium-Netherlands-Germany 12 days in Sept
Jul 14th, 2011, 10:48 AM
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Belgium-Netherlands-Germany 12 days in Sept
We are a middle age couple celebrating our 30th anniversary with a trip to Europe this September. We will be on the ground 12 days starting 9/10/11 landing in Brussels at 8:15 am Saturday morning and leaving from Frankfurt on an 11am flight Friday morning. After seeing Belgium and the Netherlands, we would like to see castles, the Rhine or Mosel areas including a river tour, small towns and mountains in Germany and maybe a quick stop in Luxembourg. If we take an overnight train from Amsterdam to Munich, would we have time to tour Neuschwanstein castle near Fussen, the BMW museum, and then return towards Frankfurt going through the Black Forest, and one of the river areas? Please suggest an itineary for this trip. We are open to train and car travel. Which museums, castles and cathedrals in these areas are spectacular? Thank you for your advice.
Jul 15th, 2011, 06:00 AM
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Congratulations, and best wishes for many more.
With a 12-day time constraint, "seeing Belgium and the Netherlands" is going to cost you several days at least. Not sure what you have in mind. You might be looking at a night in Brussels, 2 nights in Bruges, maybe 3 nights in A'dam with an outing to Zaanse Schans? That would be very swift. That leaves 6 nights in Germany. I don't see the point of traversing the country with so little time to visit Neuschwanstein when the Rhine and Mosel castles - the real ones that have been around for 800+ years - are just across the border, basically, from Belgium. Burg Eltz and Marksburg are outstanding castles and offer tours:
www.burg-eltz.de
www.marksburg.de
You want to see "the Rhine or Mosel areas including a river tour, small towns and mountains..."
The Ardennes mountains in Belgium and the Eifel range in Germany are next door neighbors. This is a very scenic area with lots of interesting small towns; many were WW II battlegrounds. Consider these places:
Spa
Durbuy
Dinant
Namur
La Roche en Ardennes
Bastogne
La Gleize
Henri Chapelle cemetery near Eupen
Monschau (gorgeous German village near Aachen)
If you're really interested in cathedrals, you'd want to see Aachen's and Cologne's.
I could see you spending the remaining 6 days in the Ardennes, Rhine and Mosel area, especially if you're interested in any of the WW II sights and museums.
If you really feel you want to cover more ground, consider substituting the Mercedes Benz Museum for the BMW museum - Stuttgart is a much shorter trip. And between Stuttgart and Frankfurt lies the Neckar River Valley, another very scenic area with a few castles, especially scenic between Bad Wimpfen and Heidelberg. Hirschhorn Castle/hotel in Hirschhorn has a nice terrace cafe overlooking the river - nice stop.
You might also want to see the Romanesque cathedrals of Mainz, Worms, and Speyer on your way south to Stuttgart.
What I've suggested really is far too much. But you can make some choices within this area without doing excessive ground travel.
With a 12-day time constraint, "seeing Belgium and the Netherlands" is going to cost you several days at least. Not sure what you have in mind. You might be looking at a night in Brussels, 2 nights in Bruges, maybe 3 nights in A'dam with an outing to Zaanse Schans? That would be very swift. That leaves 6 nights in Germany. I don't see the point of traversing the country with so little time to visit Neuschwanstein when the Rhine and Mosel castles - the real ones that have been around for 800+ years - are just across the border, basically, from Belgium. Burg Eltz and Marksburg are outstanding castles and offer tours:
www.burg-eltz.de
www.marksburg.de
You want to see "the Rhine or Mosel areas including a river tour, small towns and mountains..."
The Ardennes mountains in Belgium and the Eifel range in Germany are next door neighbors. This is a very scenic area with lots of interesting small towns; many were WW II battlegrounds. Consider these places:
Spa
Durbuy
Dinant
Namur
La Roche en Ardennes
Bastogne
La Gleize
Henri Chapelle cemetery near Eupen
Monschau (gorgeous German village near Aachen)
If you're really interested in cathedrals, you'd want to see Aachen's and Cologne's.
I could see you spending the remaining 6 days in the Ardennes, Rhine and Mosel area, especially if you're interested in any of the WW II sights and museums.
If you really feel you want to cover more ground, consider substituting the Mercedes Benz Museum for the BMW museum - Stuttgart is a much shorter trip. And between Stuttgart and Frankfurt lies the Neckar River Valley, another very scenic area with a few castles, especially scenic between Bad Wimpfen and Heidelberg. Hirschhorn Castle/hotel in Hirschhorn has a nice terrace cafe overlooking the river - nice stop.
You might also want to see the Romanesque cathedrals of Mainz, Worms, and Speyer on your way south to Stuttgart.
What I've suggested really is far too much. But you can make some choices within this area without doing excessive ground travel.
Jul 15th, 2011, 08:17 AM
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Belgium, Netherlands, and Germany - sounds like my kind of trip 
And congrats on 30 years of marriage. That is wonderful.
I agree with Russ that the plan is too ambitious for the time you have though - but that you can see the type of things you are interested in without travelling as far and wide. You may not see the exact places on your list, but you can see castles, and mountains, and charming towns, etc.
A couple years ago my husband and I spent 2 weeks in Belgium and the Netherlands and had a fabulous time. Adding Germany would have been too rushed for the time we had, I think. We didn't even see all we wanted to see in the countries that we did visit.
For your trip, I wouldn't recommend going any farther west or south than the Mosel Valley area. As much as I love Munich and the Bavarian Alps, I wouldn't go that far south with the time you have. I think if you did, you would end up cheating the other areas too much and then not have enough time to really enjoy the Alps. I do love the Ludwig castles though - our family has been facinated by Ludwig, the Wittlesbachs, Wagner, etc. for ages.
Brussels-Bruges-Ardennes Mountains-Mosel Valley-Amsterdam would be a good itinerary.
Or, if Ludwig and Bavaria are really calling you, then skip the Netherlands and just do Belgium and Germany, maybe Brussels and Bruges, then the Mosel Valley, Munich, and the Bavarian Alps.
And congrats on 30 years of marriage. That is wonderful.I agree with Russ that the plan is too ambitious for the time you have though - but that you can see the type of things you are interested in without travelling as far and wide. You may not see the exact places on your list, but you can see castles, and mountains, and charming towns, etc.
A couple years ago my husband and I spent 2 weeks in Belgium and the Netherlands and had a fabulous time. Adding Germany would have been too rushed for the time we had, I think. We didn't even see all we wanted to see in the countries that we did visit.
For your trip, I wouldn't recommend going any farther west or south than the Mosel Valley area. As much as I love Munich and the Bavarian Alps, I wouldn't go that far south with the time you have. I think if you did, you would end up cheating the other areas too much and then not have enough time to really enjoy the Alps. I do love the Ludwig castles though - our family has been facinated by Ludwig, the Wittlesbachs, Wagner, etc. for ages.
Brussels-Bruges-Ardennes Mountains-Mosel Valley-Amsterdam would be a good itinerary.
Or, if Ludwig and Bavaria are really calling you, then skip the Netherlands and just do Belgium and Germany, maybe Brussels and Bruges, then the Mosel Valley, Munich, and the Bavarian Alps.
Jul 15th, 2011, 08:59 AM
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for train travel if you do so a wide-ranging tour then by all means consider the Germany-Benelux Railpass (valid on nearly every train in Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany) - a Saverpass if 2 or more folks traveling together and as always decades of train travel in these countries makes me strongly advice paying the extra for first class pass or tickets - especially if hauling heavy bags around - lots more empty seats in first class and thus more room to store luggage - seats are also bigger because there are 25% fewer in the same size train carriage as in 2nd class - anyway check out these fab IMO sites for loads of great info on trains in those countries -www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com; www.ricdksteves.com. the beauty of the pass is that you can just hop on any train anytime without going to ticket windows in all those countries with a very few exceptions on trains your itinerary does not seem to involve. the alternative is online discounts you must book weeks in advance and are train-specific and cannot i believe be changed or refunded - so do not judge a pass vs tickets just on price but a pass gives you total flexiblity to hop any train anytime and these type of fully flexible fares are often very expensive, especially in Germany. check regular fares for German trains at www.bahn.de - the official German Railways web site.
Jul 15th, 2011, 09:12 AM
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I think you are trying to plan too much. Burg Eltz was amazing, and is a true castle. We are in our 20's and nearly always stay at least 3 nights places, more for larger cities.
We did the Rhine area two years ago and stayed 4 nights. Did castle tours along the Rhine one day, river cruise and city tours walks another day, Burg Eltz and Cochem another, and ended with a day in Mainz/Frankfurt.
While we love Munich, we spent 4 whole days there and didn't do everything we wanted, so I would go there when you have more time.
We spent 4 nights in Amsterdam, or 3 full days, and thought we really only needed 2 or 2.5 days to do everything we wanted to do.
We did the Rhine area two years ago and stayed 4 nights. Did castle tours along the Rhine one day, river cruise and city tours walks another day, Burg Eltz and Cochem another, and ended with a day in Mainz/Frankfurt.
While we love Munich, we spent 4 whole days there and didn't do everything we wanted, so I would go there when you have more time.
We spent 4 nights in Amsterdam, or 3 full days, and thought we really only needed 2 or 2.5 days to do everything we wanted to do.
Jul 15th, 2011, 11:20 AM
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lindy - We also try to stay 3 nights in places rather than moving around more. Once in awhile we will have less, like if we do an overnight stop-over on our way to someplace else, but 3 or more nights is our rule of thumb and it works well for us. We leave a place feeling like we really have experienced it.
Jul 15th, 2011, 11:37 AM
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Russ, thank you for the well wishes and your detailed reply. Burg Eltz looks grand. I was thinking 1 day each in Brussels, Bruges, Ghent and Antwerp. I'd like to be somewhere romantic for the night of the 11th since that's our anniversary. I've read Bruges is nice. I can't decide about visiting the Netherlands. Amsterdam is intriguing and only a few hours away, but the tulips aren't in bloom so I could save that for another visit. I'm not very interested in the WWII sights but would like to visit some museums for old masters paintings or cultural background art and history. I like cathedrals for the architectural and stained glass beauty. I will check out your list for scenic areas and interesting small towns. If we drop the Holland portion of our trip, is it then feasible to travel to Munich and the Black Forest?
Jul 15th, 2011, 12:21 PM
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There is so much more to the Netherlands than Amsterdam, tulips and old masters!!!
Given the length of your trip and arrival and departure places stick to Belgium and Germany.
Give the Netherlands (the whole country not just the usual Amsterdam Haarlem Delft trip) more than a couple of days of your time on another visit. Even without tulips.
Given the length of your trip and arrival and departure places stick to Belgium and Germany.
Give the Netherlands (the whole country not just the usual Amsterdam Haarlem Delft trip) more than a couple of days of your time on another visit. Even without tulips.
Jul 16th, 2011, 05:46 AM
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"I was thinking 1 day each in Brussels, Bruges, Ghent and Antwerp."
There is wisdom in staying put in one place for 2-3 days, as others have suggested. You'll minimize the time you waste packing/unpacking, checking in and out, etc. You'll feel a tad more like a guest and less like a ping pong ball. On day 1, don't plan much, as you're likely to be jet-lagged and tired - book 2 nights for sure. If this were my vacation, I'd head straight to Bruges for the first 2 nights. Bruges is too fine a place for one night anyway. Spend day 3 in Gent on the way to Brussels and nights 3 & 4 in Brussels. Then I'd spend Day 5 in Antwerp on the way to the Netherlands.
"I'd like to be somewhere romantic for the night of the 11th since that's our anniversary."
I think that's a Tuesday. You depart on a Friday. I'd arrive in Oberwesel in the early afternoon and spend the rest of the day at this castle/hotel:
http://www.hotel-schoenburg.com/
Then pick a B&B in Oberwesel or Bacharach for 2 more nights, both good towns for exploring the area. Also, from either town, you're about one hour away from the FRA terminal by train; many of the connections from Oberwesel are direct. You don't need to "waste" a final afternoon/evening at a FRA airport hotel this way.
This leaves you six nights in between your Belgium stay and your Rhine stay.
"If we drop the Holland portion of our trip, is it then feasible to travel to Munich and the Black Forest?"
It is logistically possible to hop on trains for Munich and N'stein and the Black Forest with 6 days if you don't mind spending much of your time in transit.
Personally, I would NOT omit the Netherlands - you're nearly there once you're in Antwerp - it adds some nice cultural variety to your trip. Given your stated interests, I would not travel all the way to Munich or to the Black Forest (which would another two distant corners of Germany!) based on your initial interest in the Netherlands, in "museums for old masters paintings or cultural background art and history" and in "scenic areas and interesting small towns." If you really "like cathedrals for the architectural and stained glass beauty" and want to see these other things, you'll find these in abundance much closer to Frankfurt. I could easily see spending 6 days seeing the Netherlands, the Aachen/Monschau/Cologne area, and the scenic Ardennes towns and Mosel towns between Belgium and the Rhine.
BTW, if you want to see some unusual stained glass work, make a stop in Mainz to visit the Stephanskirche's windows, which were done by Marc Chagall.
There is wisdom in staying put in one place for 2-3 days, as others have suggested. You'll minimize the time you waste packing/unpacking, checking in and out, etc. You'll feel a tad more like a guest and less like a ping pong ball. On day 1, don't plan much, as you're likely to be jet-lagged and tired - book 2 nights for sure. If this were my vacation, I'd head straight to Bruges for the first 2 nights. Bruges is too fine a place for one night anyway. Spend day 3 in Gent on the way to Brussels and nights 3 & 4 in Brussels. Then I'd spend Day 5 in Antwerp on the way to the Netherlands.
"I'd like to be somewhere romantic for the night of the 11th since that's our anniversary."
I think that's a Tuesday. You depart on a Friday. I'd arrive in Oberwesel in the early afternoon and spend the rest of the day at this castle/hotel:
http://www.hotel-schoenburg.com/
Then pick a B&B in Oberwesel or Bacharach for 2 more nights, both good towns for exploring the area. Also, from either town, you're about one hour away from the FRA terminal by train; many of the connections from Oberwesel are direct. You don't need to "waste" a final afternoon/evening at a FRA airport hotel this way.
This leaves you six nights in between your Belgium stay and your Rhine stay.
"If we drop the Holland portion of our trip, is it then feasible to travel to Munich and the Black Forest?"
It is logistically possible to hop on trains for Munich and N'stein and the Black Forest with 6 days if you don't mind spending much of your time in transit.
Personally, I would NOT omit the Netherlands - you're nearly there once you're in Antwerp - it adds some nice cultural variety to your trip. Given your stated interests, I would not travel all the way to Munich or to the Black Forest (which would another two distant corners of Germany!) based on your initial interest in the Netherlands, in "museums for old masters paintings or cultural background art and history" and in "scenic areas and interesting small towns." If you really "like cathedrals for the architectural and stained glass beauty" and want to see these other things, you'll find these in abundance much closer to Frankfurt. I could easily see spending 6 days seeing the Netherlands, the Aachen/Monschau/Cologne area, and the scenic Ardennes towns and Mosel towns between Belgium and the Rhine.
BTW, if you want to see some unusual stained glass work, make a stop in Mainz to visit the Stephanskirche's windows, which were done by Marc Chagall.
Jul 16th, 2011, 06:20 AM
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a quick stop in Luxembourg - IMO a grand idea to see the Grandy Duchy of Luxembourg's capital city and one city that is amongst the most gorgeous in Europe IMO - indeed the town is bisected by a deep wide gorge - a few hours here en route from Brussels to the Mosel - pop your bags in the train station's lockers and wander around for a few hours in one of Europe's most awesomely scenic and unique cities.
Jul 16th, 2011, 09:29 AM
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In April we did almost the exact trip you originally suggested.
3 nights in Bruges
3 nights in Amsterdam
Night train to Munich
4 nights in Munich
In Munich we did day trips to Fussen for Neuschwanstein castle, and a day in Salzburg, Austria.
We enoyed the trip but difintely could have spend longer seeing more in the Amsterdam / Netherlands and obviously a LOT more to see in Bavaria / Germany. I thought Bruges was overrated. Crowded, touristy, and not that exciting.
Its always hard for me to choose the places to visit and the amount of time in each. I make a huge list and start narrowing it down until it fits within the time we have.
3 nights in Bruges
3 nights in Amsterdam
Night train to Munich
4 nights in Munich
In Munich we did day trips to Fussen for Neuschwanstein castle, and a day in Salzburg, Austria.
We enoyed the trip but difintely could have spend longer seeing more in the Amsterdam / Netherlands and obviously a LOT more to see in Bavaria / Germany. I thought Bruges was overrated. Crowded, touristy, and not that exciting.
Its always hard for me to choose the places to visit and the amount of time in each. I make a huge list and start narrowing it down until it fits within the time we have.
Jul 18th, 2011, 08:02 AM
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for the above itinerary a Germany-Benelux Railpass would be a good deal IMO - especially in first class - the more days of travel the cheaper per day the pass becomes - approaching at some point even the per day cost of online discounts and Lander Cards and gives you totally flexible travel to hop any train anytime (except Thalys trains which you need not ever have to take). you would have to pay a supplement for sleeping accommodations on the overnight train as the railpass pays the rail fare but not option extra sleeping berths.
Jul 19th, 2011, 06:13 AM
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Many thanks to everyone for their valuable input. Looks like some division in recommendations for keeping/dropping the Netherlands portion. I'll give all this some thought and try to decide.
Jul 19th, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Belgium and the Hetherlands are so so tiny that you could hop from one end of Benelux to the other by train in a few hours - keep the Dutch portion in as it is not a major detour - Germany is but a few hours from any Belgian or Dutch town and Belgium and Holland are indeed quite different IME.
Jul 20th, 2011, 09:17 AM
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Antwerp to me is a totally unique city - a city that reeks of history - one of the world's largest ports - Flemish architecture inside museums and outside on facades - lots of Art Nouveau, including a whole amazing street of it just by the Antwerp Berchem train station - a large Jewish district where folks wear old-time black garbs - this is the Diamond Industry disctrict - visit the factories - and a Red-Light District such as in Amsterdam with the gals in red-neon-lit picture windows.
Jul 21st, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Oh and also in Antwerp you have, a few miles from the town center one of the premier outdoor statue parks in Europe - Middleheim with a panoply of statues and sculptors from world-famous artists, all nicely displayed in a verdant park-like setting.
Jul 26th, 2011, 08:35 AM
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Thank you. I would like to visit the sculptures in Antwerp and will add that to my list. We arrive in Brussels on a Saturday morning. I think we could tour Brussels that day and then head to Bruges for the 1st and 2nd nights stay, touring Bruges on day 2 and Ghent on day 3 (Monday). If we visit Antwerp on Day 4 then move on to the Netherlands will the travel flow well this way or as Russ suggested, tour Bruges 1st, then head to Ghent, Brussels and over to Antwerp? Also, what's your favorite things to see/do in the Netherlands with 2 days to visit in September?
Aug 25th, 2011, 08:04 AM
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I'm still trying to iron out my itinerary and need some suggestions for the Netherlands and Germany portions of the trip. Here's what I have so far:
Brussels:Arrive by 9am Sat and See Le Sablon, Grand Place and Parc du Cinquantenaire. Train to Bruges Saturday night.
Bruges: Tour the city, Canal cruise (This is our Anniversary)
What is a romantic place to sleep for Sat & Sun night?
Ghent: train Mon morning. See Belfort, Gravensteen and St-Baafskathedraal & The Adoration of the Mystic Lamb.
Antwerp: Train Monday early evening, see Middleheim, Fotomuseum, Cathedral of our Lady, St. Pauluskerk, and maybe one other museum if there's time. KMSKA or what's your suggestions for Tuesday?
Where should we sleep before the long train to The Netherlands?
If we see The Hague, Haarlem, Amsterdam and Zaanse Schans Wed-Sat, what's the best base?
Saturday evening, train to Germany. Sleep in Koln.
Koln & Aachen Sunday see the cathedrals. We'll train to Luxembourg next. Should we stay 2 nights in Koln and day trip to Aachen?
Luxembourg: train Monday check out the capital city as PalenQ suggested. train to Trier. Maybe get a rental car here.
Mosel Valley tour: Where to stay for this portion?
Bacharach & Cochem Tues.
Moselkern and Berg Eltz Wednesday morning
Rhein Tour:Where should we stay for this part?
Drive over to Braubach and visit Marksburg, Boppard Wed. afternoon
Rheinfels and St. Goar, Cruise to Bacharach (round trip) Drive to Rheinstein Castle Thursday.
Frankfort Friday morning for a 10:55am flight home.
Thank you for any suggestions. We leave in 2 weeks!!
Brussels:Arrive by 9am Sat and See Le Sablon, Grand Place and Parc du Cinquantenaire. Train to Bruges Saturday night.
Bruges: Tour the city, Canal cruise (This is our Anniversary)
What is a romantic place to sleep for Sat & Sun night?
Ghent: train Mon morning. See Belfort, Gravensteen and St-Baafskathedraal & The Adoration of the Mystic Lamb.
Antwerp: Train Monday early evening, see Middleheim, Fotomuseum, Cathedral of our Lady, St. Pauluskerk, and maybe one other museum if there's time. KMSKA or what's your suggestions for Tuesday?
Where should we sleep before the long train to The Netherlands?
If we see The Hague, Haarlem, Amsterdam and Zaanse Schans Wed-Sat, what's the best base?
Saturday evening, train to Germany. Sleep in Koln.
Koln & Aachen Sunday see the cathedrals. We'll train to Luxembourg next. Should we stay 2 nights in Koln and day trip to Aachen?
Luxembourg: train Monday check out the capital city as PalenQ suggested. train to Trier. Maybe get a rental car here.
Mosel Valley tour: Where to stay for this portion?
Bacharach & Cochem Tues.
Moselkern and Berg Eltz Wednesday morning
Rhein Tour:Where should we stay for this part?
Drive over to Braubach and visit Marksburg, Boppard Wed. afternoon
Rheinfels and St. Goar, Cruise to Bacharach (round trip) Drive to Rheinstein Castle Thursday.
Frankfort Friday morning for a 10:55am flight home.
Thank you for any suggestions. We leave in 2 weeks!!
Aug 25th, 2011, 09:06 AM
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Some thoughts on your itinerary:
I don't remember where you are flying to Brussels from, but your arrival day is pretty busy, so if you are arriving from a long flight, your arrival day is probably too ambitious. I'd see a little of Brussels (Grand Place, have lunch, wander around a bit) and then an afternoon train to Bruges so you can make an early evening of it if you need to.
Another idea - adjust your itinerary a bit to spend the first night in Brussels, then head to Bruges the next day. This takes even more of the pressure of the first day because you will not have to travel further to your lodgings. Then continue onto Bruges the next day. Ghent is on the way to Bruges, so you could stop for a few hours.
Bruges to Amsterdam is about 3 hours by train if I remember right, with a train change in Antwerp. So you could stay over in Antwerp or visit for a few hours on the way to Amsterdam, depending on how much you want to see in Antwerp.
Amsterdam makes a good base for seeing the Netherlands. The train station is in the city center, so that is convinient.
I don't remember where you are flying to Brussels from, but your arrival day is pretty busy, so if you are arriving from a long flight, your arrival day is probably too ambitious. I'd see a little of Brussels (Grand Place, have lunch, wander around a bit) and then an afternoon train to Bruges so you can make an early evening of it if you need to.
Another idea - adjust your itinerary a bit to spend the first night in Brussels, then head to Bruges the next day. This takes even more of the pressure of the first day because you will not have to travel further to your lodgings. Then continue onto Bruges the next day. Ghent is on the way to Bruges, so you could stop for a few hours.
Bruges to Amsterdam is about 3 hours by train if I remember right, with a train change in Antwerp. So you could stay over in Antwerp or visit for a few hours on the way to Amsterdam, depending on how much you want to see in Antwerp.
Amsterdam makes a good base for seeing the Netherlands. The train station is in the city center, so that is convinient.
Aug 25th, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Thanks, november_moon. We travel from Texas via Chicago so it's a "red eye" flight. Other folks say to stay 2 nights in one place to save time with check-in/out & packing at hotels so that's why I'm trying to get to Bruges the 1st night. Also, day 2 is our 30th Anniv.and I thought we'd stay off the train that day and make it more special. But you're right, I've got a lot packed into the Brussels visit for the first day. Our bodies will probably like your suggested tempo better.
