Beggars in Paris

They were there when I was in Paris a few years ago. THEY'RE SCAMMERS. They bring their little babies or whatever props they need to make the tourists feel guilty and they seem to be everywhere!

The police are aware (how can they not be). Just hang on to your purse tight and don't give them any money.

>> Do they think only English speaking people are gullible to their pan handling?

No, I don't think that's true but perhaps it's the easiest way to communicate to tourists. Here in Prague even in the shopping malls there are young ladies who will approach people and say, "Speak English" and attempt to sell you perfume or lotions. They'll say that to anyone, they've said it to me, and I certainly don't look like I speak English due to my heritage.

I yelled at the creature, whatever she was, that I was going to call the police...

Wouldn't a simple "No" have been sufficient?

A few years ago the scourge was people from Balkan areas like Kossovo, or least they claimed to be. I was waylaid near Gare Montparnasse by a team of about 4 of them. Unfortunately, they spoke English quite well.

Wonder what the local authorities are doing about it? They used to be very diligent warning tourists to stay off the grass (the lawn variety) and calling on the CRS to confront protesting students.

Just keep walking and don't let them ruin your day. Too much to see and do to let yourself get distracted. Really. I was in Paris recently for more than a week, saw as one sees everything, but was not bothered. Just keep moving. They probably make more in an afternoon than I make in a week!

Could I have just said no...of course but after the third time of the same bs my patience was at an end.

The police have to know this is going on and it behooves them to put an end to it.

When we were last in Paris in the Notre Dame area, a pitiful looking woman came up to us begging. I gave her one Euro and she practically threw it back at me and said it wasn't enough.

Beggars are distressing to encounter. However, I must question your use of the phrase "creature, whatever she was". She was a human being.

It may be a terrible intrusion and annoyance and you have every right to contact the police if begging is illegal, but no matter what the person is a human being

Just keep walking and don't establish eye contact. These people have been there for years and obviously wouldn't be there if some suckers didn't say "yes".

No-brainer. Just walk on and ignore them. You neither need to engage with them nor question their language of choice.

Point taken SW, but even if we put aside the annoyance caused to relatively affluent foreign tourists, professional beggars and scam artists surely make life even more difficult for those unfortunates who really need help (and who would be unlikely to have the resources, drive or even presence of mind to set themselves up 'in business' at the capital's premier tourist attractions). I'd guess most of us would assume that in countries such as France there would be adequate support available from the state and therefore there should be no need for begging (and putting at risk the children and babies who are sometimes used as props). I'd also guess that some of us are surprised that the proud French authorities would let this sort of thing tarnish in any way the dignity of their national icons (for want of a better word), but I haven't been there for quite a while and maybe things have changed since I was warned off the grass.

XYZ123, your post reminded me of an episode here in Houston a few weeks ago. We were eating at a taco-truck turned hole-in-the-wall restaurant named "El Jarro". The clientele is mainly hispanic, we are the only Anglos eating there at the time. Up walks a young woman, about 17 or 18, who reminded me of one of the women in Paris. She whips out a photo of a baby in a hospital bed who she says needs heart surgery and she needs money to help. I ask her where the baby is and she says...Romania! These folks definitely get around.

It isn't a matter of 'walking' on. You know how everyone wants to have a picnic or a rest in the park? It isn't very relaxing when 'beggar' after 'beggar' approaches you, interrupts your peace, and generally works one person after another. They are like birds landing on a scatter of crumbs, one lands, takes off, then the next one flaps in, then the next one. They come out in groups and split up, then meet back up. The park patrol will run them off, but they just come back after the officers have walked on. When the 3rd in a row headed for our blanket, I just pointed my arm to 'go there!' and she just swerved and went on to the saps next door who handed over their cash. I put 'beggar' in quotes as these are women in their 'native garb' and don't look particularly poor or underfed. (reminds me of friend's anecdote that husband was about to fall 'prey' to a beggar woman, when friend whispered in his ear 'she sure has a nice pedicure' - sure enough, her pretty toes were peeking out from her long drab skirt).

When someone walks up and asks 'speak English?', I like to clearly say "no, I don't", why should they be any less irritated than me?

On the other hand, I find those who attempt to do something to earn some money are worth a listen and a few coins - at least there is some kind of exchange going on.

Begging is not illegal and most of these people are EU citizens with the right to live in other EU countries.

Do you come from a country with no beggars?

My surprise is that the French authorities who found a way to keep me off the grass haven't found a way to deal with professional begging/ persistent and/or aggressive harassment of tourists at the most important sites in their national capital - we're not talking Third World here.

Of course, all countries have beggars - in mine some are failed investment bankers, but mostly they're substance abusers or those with other mental disorders - they're not well organised, rarely persistent or aggressive and they usually do not target tourists.

kerouac...

While your point is well taken, my point is:

1. the m.o. they all come up the same way with some piece of paper and say Speak English. Again, why in France do they say Speak English.....would palez-vous francais be more appropriate...or perhaps spechen sie deutsch as I would assume there are far more German tourists in Paris at any given time than English speaking tourists or at least comparable numbers.

BTW in my country we don't call it begging...we call it pan handling.

Bothering people or speaking an inappropriate language to passersby is a lack of savoir-vivre but I don't think it is on the law books as a punishable offense yet. And most of the people on this forum seem perfectly satisfied that English has become the lingua franca of the world; it is only normal for the lowlife to adapt as well.

Perhaps they could put a big fence around all of the monuments and filter everybody with electronic controls so that undesirables will not bother the visitors.

<<My surprise is that the French authorities who found a way to keep me off the grass haven't found a way to deal with professional begging/ persistent and/or aggressive harassment of tourists>>

You have more to lose than they do so breaking laws is more abhorrent to you than them.

kerouac wrote: "Perhaps they could put a big fence around all of the monuments and filter everybody with electronic controls so that undesirables will not bother the visitors."

Good idea. And only those who speak English should be allowed enter. The outcome would be that if beggars get in (sorry, whenbeggars get in -- because they will manage) there would be no point in asking "speak English?". Transactions would be speeded up, making the whole operation more efficient.

Spaarne: I'm as offended as flanner. They are hardly "professional".

Ah ha flanneruk...when last I checked your compatriots usually speak English and are among those against whom this pan handling is being performed.

But in any event, it just dawned on me. How could I be so foolish. Where all the money is, they should have these papers re-written and learn how to say either Speak Chinese or Speak Japanese to the many Oriental tourists we see in Paris. That is probably where the big bucks (or Yuan or Yen) are these days......

This is the old Disneyland problem again. Some tourists expect the cities they visit to be like Disneyland - arranged for their personal convenience and delight, with no intrusions from the world outside their fantasy.

Paris is a real place, with a wide spectrum of inhabitants and its share of social and economic problems. The authorities have to manage the city with humanity and in the interests of all. Tourists make up only a small percentage of the activity and life of the city.

It should also be said that if tourists refused to take any notice of the beggars, phony artists, and street pedlars, then they would soon disappear.

Perhaps they ask speak English because that's what they speak? The fact that they ask implies that they beg off any body and every body regardlees of nationality. Ignore them.
As I have said on another post on a similar topic I have come across far more beggars, and far more aggressive beggars at that, in the US than I have ever done in Europe. And no they were not Romanians, or "gypsies", but poor, down and out Americans.

The ethnicity or contact language of the small business people we are talking about is not an issue for me. And my 'surprise' (not disgust or outrage) was something of a compliment to the French - misplaced it seems, but I would not be 'surprised' in some other countries.

Spaarne---you misunderstood me! I was not excusing the beggars' behavior for one moment. I was criticizing the OP's characterization of them as "creatures'. Many atrocities are committed in this world by considering others as less than human.

I am as appalled by being bothered by beggars as anyone.

Has no one here ever walked the streets of Berkeley, CA? You can't go 20 feet without being accosted by beggars. It's FAR worse than in Paris.

And to have some romanticized notion about expecting the "proud French" to be at the forefront in combating the beggar problem is, well, just that, romanticized, and naive. Of course they're aware of them and taking steps to crack down on them - but you can only throw so many expensive resources at a problem that's extremely difficult to control and at the end of the day hardly your worst problem.

Why English? I'm guessing that it's because it's the language that will be understood by the greatest number of people who have not already encountered this pan-handling technique so are most likely to be taken in by whatever is written on the piece of paper they thrust at you when you say yes.

Tourist areas are targeted because there are only so many times you can try to fool the people who live in a place and still get away with it.

It did make my attempt to walk around the Champ de Mars and take photos a much less pleasant experience than one would have hoped, so I left. Although that was more because of the ring picker-uppers than the "do you speak English" folks.

well, all I can say is that the beggers in Paris are civilized compared to those I have encountered in other places.... try Egypt, if you really want to get exceited about rampant begging, pestering and annoying!

Thanks for setting me straight - I like to be disabused - that's why I hang around here. I'll look forward to walking on the grass as I now know they have more pressing problems to police.

I have been confronted by panhandlers in US as well as European cities.

Why don't the authorities do something?

Because it is too expensive to arrest, try and convict someone for doing something that requires only that the "offended" party just maintain course and speed.

Omigawsh, there are poor people in Europe? What a revelation!

It's not as if mass immigration to the US in the second half of the 1800s consisted of huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

</sarcasm>

Ultimately, the beggars the OP described are relatively easy to ignore. And if you don't realize that Europe has serious social problems throughout its various societies, you just haven't been paying attention.

I think scammers could be doing something illegal, but just begging or panhandling isn't usually illegal in most cities. I don't know any city that has the jail capacity or personnel to start arresting panhandlers. I'm used to them in my own city and every major city I've been in. I do think they have increased in Paris in the last five years or so, though. I don't remember ever seeing hardly any when I first was there, say 20 years ago (I mean actual homeless or beggars).

I think maybe the do get more revenue out of people speaking English, probably, and it is a common language so I guess that's why they use it. I don't know. I don't ever talk to them or have anything to do with them.

spaarne and xyz: Gypsies are an ethnic group -- it sounds like you think "gypsie" means someone who engages in criminal behavior. It would be EXACTLY the same if someone said "All those black people steal . . ." or "Kurds are crooks . . ." or you fill in the blank.

I think this is a mistake many in the States make - since we don't have that many ethnic Gypsies, many don't realize they are a People -- w/ good/bad/in between like other ethnic groups. To say gypsies steal, beg or whatever - is indeed very racist.

(and I'm about the least pc person around. I really didn't know about Gypsies myself until I moved over there for a few years. Before then I'd have probably made the same mistake)

spaarne, your comments are reprehensible and display an alarming ignorance.

The word "Gypsy" refers to an ethnic group, specifically the Roma or Romani (who are ethnically distinct from Romanians) and is a bastardization of Egyptian because the English originally believed the Gypsies came from Egypt. The word "gypsy" does not refer to an ethnic group, it refers to a lifestyle and that is the manner in which it is used in the US.

Thus, spaarne saying that "Gypsies steal" would be a prejudiced statement referring to a specific ethnic group, but if s/he said "gypsies steal" it's not. I'll guess the latter was intended (the statement was at the beginning of a sentence, therefore the capitalization of "Gypsies" is deceptive).

Uh - nope. A capital G doesn't change things one tiny bit . . . . .

It is hard for me to believe some of the comments on this thread. Too many racist comments and innuendo using "beggers" as an excuse to unload. Any mature, intelligent person would just look past the individual or, indeed, not even interrupt what they are doing to acknowledge the "intruder". Even a child knows not to talk to strangers. And as far as the police - I kind of like the fact that they are occupied with real issues. I much prefer feeling safe from terrorists and other violent criminals. And, by the way, I saw more panhandlers last month in Seattle than on my last trip to Paris!

BigRuss wrote: "... spaarne saying that "Gypsies steal" would be a prejudiced statement referring to a specific ethnic group, but if s/he said "gypsies steal" it's not..."

Read that aloud to bring home to yourself what a specious distinction that is.

Racial or ethnic prejudice is reprehensible. To hold such a prejudice while pretending not to is even more reprehensible.

Here in our city in Canada it is illegal to panhandle. But the law is hard to enforce.We try to encourage those that do give them money, not to do it. Instead, we ask the citizens to contribute to a local charity (and we have several)that assists the homeless and panhandlers. We have found that the more you give to these panhandlers, the more they will panhandle.
They don't have beggars or panhandlers in Singapore because the city looks after their citizens and helps them find a job and a place to live and if they are not able to work then they are looked after in other ways.
PS-I really don't enjoy the language used by flanneruk.

Uh XYZ... It's "Asian" NOT "Oriental". Unless you are speaking of a rug, that is certainly NOT the appropriate word to use to designate those of the Asian race. Last time I looked at a calendar, it said 2009 - not 1945.

Sorry Paddy, it's not a specious distinction in a WRITTEN forum, which is what this is. Reading it or speaking the statement aloud reveals how the distinction can be lost.

Whether spaarne is prejudiced is not something I am qualified to determine considering that I've not met spaarne and have no knowledge of who the poster is or what the poster is like. Thus, Janis' admonition that Gypsies are considered an ethnic group is well-taken. StCirq is likely correct that spaarne displayed an appalling ignorance.

My distinction is linguistic: saying "Gypsies steal" libels an ethnicity, saying "gypsies steal" libels a lifestyle adherent. So yes, Janis, it does make a difference but it's one of kind, not degree.

This is why referring to "gypsies" generically creates such complications. In the US, gypsy is not usually used as an ethnic description. Indeed, the media in the US has become more precise in referring to ethnic Gypsies as "Roma," which is the proper name of the ethnic group to the best of my knowledge.

As for the other comments, I don't think anyone here is going to stand up and cheer racial or ethnic prejudice. If someone is, that's regrettable.

And Michelle is right, at this point calling a person of Japanese or Chinese descent "Oriental" is a no-no.

Personally I find them rather funny. How many gold rings and bent over old ladies can accost you in a day? Our record is 5! 2 bent ladies, 2 ring bearers and a speak English? Just don't acknowledge them and get on with what you were doing.

The funniest thing I saw in Paris was a bent over lady on Pont des Arts, who was leaving and crossing the pont to rue de Louvre when the light changed and she had to straighten up and hot foot it across!

What on earth is pejorative about the word 'Oriental'? I would be very interested in knowing who decided that it was an insult to East Asians.

It is interesting to note that if you say 'Asian' in the UK, most people think you are talking about Indians and Pakistanis. Meanwhile, in French, the word 'Oriental' refers to the Arab world -- generally the Middle East, but going all the way back west to Morocco (which is west of France and most decidedly not 'oriental') To talk about, er, those strange people in East Asia, the word is 'Asiatique'.

All of these words are simply used to situate the people about whom one is talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the word 'Oriental' myself, as it is not in any way similar to terms such as 'Chinks' or 'Gooks'.

Can somebody please explain what exactly is offensive?

Thank you kerouac for stepping in...when I wrote the comment about the Orientals I was trying to tone down the discussion somewhat....I did think of using the words Chinese and Japs although to many from New York City and other parts of America, the word Jap can be considered somewhat offensive term about one's wife or girl friend. I won't go any further with that one....if you don't know what I'm referring to, you can try to figure it out from various sources on the internet....

One of the many things I have learned on this message board is that people in different countries have very different perceptions of the use of various terms used to describe ethnic groups. What is very un-PC in the UK might be inoffensive in the US, and vice versa.

In the US, it has been recognized for quite a while that "Asian" is the term preferred over "Oriental". And I believe both those words have different meanings in the UK than they do in the US. And while "Oriental" was an acceptable term for much of my life, it is not now. It has nothing to do, in my opinion, with whether there is anything inherently wrong with the word. It is more a matter of what people choose to be called by others and how much others respect their right to determine what others call them.

"Oriental" is really only a pejorative in North America -

"Asian" means something entirely different in most parts of the world.

BigRuss wrote: "Sorry Paddy, it's not a specious distinction in a WRITTEN forum, which is what this is."

You rather undermine your claim by writing my name as "Paddy" -- or are you using it as a pejorative term for Irishman?

Don't know for certain if this is accurate, but I read somewhere that 'things' are Oriental but 'people' are Asian. I like that distinction, as it seems to show respect. Can anyone confirm that this is proper usage?
Sorry to display my ignorance for everyone to know about.

cynthia -- that is a good rule of thumb IF you live in North America. Elsewhere the "rules" can be very different . . .

Thanks, Janis.

I'm sick of of all this denial of reality and this hysterical obsession with "racism". The truth is not "racist". Some groups average higher, some much higer crime rates. That is a fact and everyone knows that. Men average much higher rates of violent crime than women, that's the truth, not sexism.

Also, there is nothing wrong with Oriental, give me a break.

corli33 "I'm sick of of all this denial of reality and this hysterical obsession with "racism"."

Typical American simple-mindedness.

>> there is nothing wrong with Oriental, give me a break.


Hmm. That's like saying there's nothing wrong with calling African Americans "Colored", give me a break.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient


Perceptions and connotations

An important factor in the usage of 'Oriental', regardless of perceptions of pejorativeness, is that it collectively refers to cultural, ethnic and national groupings of people who do not necessarily identify themselves as associated, and hence can lead to inaccurate assumptions about similarity.


American English

While a number of reference works used in the United States describe Oriental as pejorative, antiquated or offensive in some instances, the American Heritage Book of English Usage notes that

"It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission. In these cases Asian (or a more specific term such as Vietnamese, Korean, or Asian American, if appropriate) is the only acceptable term. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term."

Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language states "Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate."

This Guide to Sensitive Language suggests the use of "Asian or more specific designation such as Pacific Islander, Chinese American, [or] Korean."

Merriam-Webster describes the term as "sometimes offensive,"

Encarta states "when the term is used as a noun it is considered "a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia."


British English

In British English, the term Oriental carries no pejorative connotations and describes Eastern Asian people of Chinese/Japanese/Korean descent and some Southeastern Asian groups such as Vietnamese, wheras the term Asian generally describes the people or descendants of people from the Middle East or the Indian Subcontinent and its surrounding countries. (These latter people are called South Asians in the United States.)


Australian English

In Australian English, the term "Asian" is generally used in reference to people of Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese ethnicity. However, the term is sometimes expanded to include South Asians and other Asians of darker skin tone, also. Usage of the term is chiefly regional and often varies according to personal preference.

For example: Australians generally refer to people of: Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese or Chinese descent as Asian(s) and persons of Indian or Sri Lankan descent by their respective demonym(s).



Canadian English

In Canadian English, like Australian English, the term "Asian" is used most often to refer to people of eastern Asian descent and other similar southeastern groups. It can be expanded, however, such as in colonial times, to include the more southern Asian countries such as India and Sri Lanka , which is quite common, especially in use by South Asians themselves. In modern Canadian usage, according to the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, the term "Oriental" is considered offensive when applied to a person of East Asian ancestry.

"Typical American simple-mindedness."

Yours is typical Irish simple-mindedness. As an American, I have lived around in close contact with far, far more different groups of people than someone from Ireland so I have a lot more experience, so do most Americans. You come from a small European country, where you are idealistic, not realistic because you have little experience lving around large numbers of different groups, though that is changing.

Anyway, are any of you saying that violent crime rates are the same for both men and women and for all groups on average. That is patently not true. At least I'm honest and don't pretend like those of you on here do. Also, Oriental is not the same as colored and it is in no way derogatory. It only is if you think that being from of of the Orient is inferior.

If the term "Oriental" is "in no way derogatory", why would Washington State illegalize this word?

From http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=143



Washington State Illegalizes ‘O’ Word

OLYMPIA, Wash. - Anyone who studied Asian American history knows that the word “Oriental” conjures up images of people less than savage as the term was used in Europe and then the United States in the last three centuries. And now the state of Washington has officially acknowledged the term as derogatory and offensive and banned it from all public text.
“Asian” rather than “Oriental” will be used to refer to the people of the racial category in all government statutes, codes, and regulations...

“Oriental” will be stricken from all government documents here beginning July 1, 2002, thanks to state Senator Paul Shin, key sponsor of Senate Bill 5954 or legislation Updating Obsolete Language. First introduced in February 2001, the bill was passed in the state Senate and House in March 2002. Governor Gary Locke, the first governor of Asian descent on the mainland, signed it April 2.

“I cannot tell you how proud I am of our state for finally passing a law that simply says Washington will no longer tolerate offensive words in our laws and regulations,” Shin, a Democrat representing Edmonds and the only Asian Pacific American incumbent in the Washington State Senate, told Philippine News.

When used to describe inanimate objects, “oriental” is the appropriate adjective, such as “oriental rug” or “oriental jewelry.” In reference to the people and the culture, “oriental” is fraught with negative stereotypes ascribed to Asians by westerners.

“The word ‘oriental’ carries with it racist overtones and anyone who thinks that those offended by it are just hypersensitive do not understand the implications of what it means to be stereotyped,” Washington Rep. Velma Veloria told PNews.

The Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language in its updated revised deluxe edition defines the term as “pertaining to or characteristic of the Orient or the East, belonging to a geographical division comprising Asia and the Malay archipelago or a native or inhabitant of the orient.” Printed in 1996, the entry does not indicate the term as offensive.

Originally meant “from the direction of the rising sun,” according to Shin, the term “has absorbed the connotations of centuries of colonialism and oppression.”

Shin explained why he first proposed the legislation in February 2001: “Beginning in the 17th century, the British empire popularized the use of the word Oriental, which was a western way to refer to someone from east of London. Use of this pejorative word is no longer appropriate when referring to people. My greatest concern is for our youth -that they learn to be more sensitive to different cultures and ideas. And that they pass that sensitivity to future generations. I hope this new, long overdue law will help them do so.”

In Europe and the United States, however, the term acquired a Eurocentric depiction of the worst of Asian habits and lifestyles. Hence the word “Oriental” was spoken with derision. To Asian Americans who know its historical reference, the term is as repugnant as the “N” word used to slur African Americans. “Many people didn’t realize the term had negative connotations,” Shin legislative aide Scott Passey told PNews how constituents responded to consultations about the issue. “But once they understood, they were very agreeable. A few simply refused to believe the word was negative despite the historical evidence and dictionary references.”

“The major issue here is one of self-identity and self-determination,” Shin stressed. “Members of the Asian community have told me that they are offended to be referred to as ‘Oriental’ in our state statutes. The definition of the word notwithstanding, its various applications, such as ‘exotic,’ ‘strange,’ and so forth is demeaning. While many Asians under European colonial influence have not been educated to the application of the word, they now understand its meaning and connotations. This is similar to the reason why blacks do not wish to be called ‘Negros (sic).’”

>> As an American, I have lived around in close contact with far, far more different groups of people than someone from Ireland so I have a lot more experience, so do most Americans.


Really?

Try going up to an Asian-American person in San Francisco and calling them "Oriental." You might be corrected on the spot.

Washington State has gone PC crazy, that's why. The Orient is simply one part of Asia and Oriental means from or of that part of Asia. It's no more derogatory than the use of the word "Scandinavian" to describe one from of of the Scandinavian part of Europe, ie. Swedes. Now the politically correct nitpickers have decided it is "derogatory". I have never thought of Oriental as derogatory nor has it ever been used as something derogatory anywhere in my experience, I've heard plenty of Asian-Americans use the term Oriental to describe themselves.

When will the INSANITY on race end?????

So you think the N-word is also not derogatory?


The N-word was used during the time of the slavery of Africans in America. It was not considered derogatory at the time of slavery, but it is now an offensive term.


Oriental was used during the time of European colonialism (imperialism) of Asia -- the draw and quarter of East Asia, the scramble for raw materials from Asia to supply the demands of Europeans, European ownership of key ports and fortifications to serve their own trading needs, and the suppression of political independence. It was not considered derogatory at the time of imperialism, but it is now an offensive term.

Padraig, I hope you were going for intentional rather than unintentional irony by talking about "typical American simple-mindedness."

What INSANITY, corli? I wouldn't dispute that you can use statistics to show that more men than women commit violent crimes, or that more African-American men are in prison than men of any other race, but that's got nothing to do with labeling people in offensive ways.

I work mainly with international development agencies all over the world. The words "The Orient" and "Orientals" are simply no longer acceptable and haven't been, probably since Laos in the 50s, Vietman in the 60s, etc., when people realized that Asia was a vast and differentiated group of people, not just a bunch of yellow-skinned slanty-eyes. If I were to refer to one of my Asian clients or colleages as an Oriental, I can't even imagine the flak I'd get. It would put me out of business. And isn't it up to the people of the world themselves to determine what the best national appellations for them are? It's certainly not up to ME or YOU. If they want to be called Asians, let's call them Asians. Same for African-Americns and so on. If it enhances their identity, that's a good thing. My ancestors were called Micks. If anyone said that today, he'd be a disgrace.

And as far as Asians are concerned, I disagree, based on the huge variety of people I work with from that continent, that the derogatoriness of the term varies from country to country. No one I work with (and they are from every country imaginable) would ever use the term Oriental in dealing with anyone from Asia. It's considered offensive, period, no matter where you're from.

The O word, the N word - perhaps it's time to let this thread die or, if we must, get back to comparative begging/ pan handling/ tax evading entrepreneurs - black, white or brindle - at Paris landmarks and the OP's original question 'why are the police continuing to allow this'. The consensus seems to be that 'it's not illegal', or 'the police have better things to do'.

With regard to the latter, I haven't seen how they do things in Berkeley and I can't say I was altogether surprised that the Las Vegas police bailed me up because I was walking along the main drag early on a Sunday evening 'looking at the lights' or even that the Mexican police were nowhere to be seen when I was offered 'leetle girls' or 'leetle boys' in Ciudad Juarez, but I DO remain genuinely surprised that apparently there is not a more active police presence at the major landmarks of the French capital.

Now call ME anything you like, naive even (but don't call me late for dinner).

(We appear to have answered the OP's second question about English being the language of choice - commercial realities.)

StCirq , you are not correct about the use of the word "Orient". It has no negative connotations whatsoever in the Orient, (which is where I live). Orientals is a quaint term which is rarely used these days. I believe it acquired some negative connotations when used in propoganda in WW2 by the Allies, and also in the days of the Vietnam War.
To those quoting Wikipedia, a word of advice: Wikipedia, carries no authority whatsoever for any even remotely educated person.

Personally my view is that no words are racist in themselves, including "nigger" and "abo". It is the context in which they are used that renders them unacceptable.

By the way, StCirq, if you think the term "Mick" is a pejorative, i would suggest you never come and visit Australia. It is nothing of the sort, but just a gentle ribbing.

Nikki wrote: "Padraig, I hope you were going for intentional rather than unintentional irony by talking about "typical American simple-mindedness." "

Do you think I am simple-minded? I was trailin' me coat. And you came along, picked it up, folded it neatly, and handed it back to me.

Vientianboy wrote: "To those quoting Wikipedia, a word of advice: Wikipedia, carries no authority whatsoever for any even remotely educated person."

Nothing to do with us, then. We're Wikipedia people here.

And here I thought the "famine" in Ireland was over!

"StCirq , you are not correct about the use of the word "Orient". It has no negative connotations whatsoever in the Orient,"

Exactly. I fail to see how the Orient or Oriental is in any way derogatory anymore than Scandinavia or Scandinavian is. This is the first time I've heard of such a thing and I've been around plenty of different races of people. I realize that Asia is very large and includes many differing peoples from Indians to Japanese and the Orient is just one particular area. One poster is right in that the term Orient or Oriental is not used very much today, it's mostly the term Asian. I'm sick of this total hypersensitivity which only applies to certain groups. If you'll note, it's perfectly ok to criticize or stereotype White people but don't dare do it to non-Whites, it's perfectly ok to criticize or stereotype Christians, especially Baptists not Muslims, it's ok to insult Americans but not any other nationality, it's ok to refer to working class Whites as "rednecks" but don't you dare do it to working poor non-whites and so forth.

PS- What about terms such as Yanks,Poms,Micks,Gringos and so forth. I don't find these offensive but where are the PC police on this.