Be careful in Vienna
May 24th, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Be careful in Vienna
Be careful in Vienna
I traveled last year to spain and It was really helpful to read before going there about some gangs in spain who try to pocket lift tourists. Unfortunaltely I didn't see any warning from ticket controllers in Vienna before going there...
Be Careful, my husband and I were in Vienna (Austria) last week and we were fooled by the controller in the subway.
When the controller came to check tickets we showed him our tickets but he asked us to go out to the station with him saying that we didn’t stamp the tickets; so we went with him along with one Viennese girl who didn’t have a ticket.
Another two controllers were there at the station and asked to see our IDs and whether we are tourists, they let the girl go and told us that we must pay 70 euros for not stamping our tickets. We told them that we are tourists and that there is no gate for stamping tickets, and we didn’t see people stamping anything, but they insisted either we pay or accompany them to the police station. We thought the police would listen to us, but when we arrived they told us that the controller in the station is a police man undercover, and insisted that we must pay the fine for not knowing that we must stamp the tickets.
We told them we want to make a complaint regarding letting the other girl go without paying even though she didn’t have a ticket and we were tourists who had tickets, so they said you must pay and then make a complaint.
After we paid the money we left to the office where they told us we can complain, we were shocked there that when they checked with the controller he said that we were three people, two tourists with tickets and a Viennese friend who didn’t have a ticket, and that we are lying because it was not us who paid the fine it was our friend. They said they cannot do anything to us in the complaint office because we already paid the fine, and because police was there too.
I can’t believe that they treat tourists that way, the last thing I expected is to be fooled by a policeman. 3 police officers and two controllers were there in the police station and heard the whole conversation and this didn't stop him from telling a big lie.
Surprisingly, my ticket was checked two days before the incident by another controller and he didn’t mention anything about stamping the ticket, I had another ticket then it was a two zone ticket but from what I know now it should have been stamped also!!!.
They ruined my vacation by doing that, please be careful, stamp the tickets, and if you have a complaint do not pay the fine before doing so…
I traveled last year to spain and It was really helpful to read before going there about some gangs in spain who try to pocket lift tourists. Unfortunaltely I didn't see any warning from ticket controllers in Vienna before going there...
Be Careful, my husband and I were in Vienna (Austria) last week and we were fooled by the controller in the subway.
When the controller came to check tickets we showed him our tickets but he asked us to go out to the station with him saying that we didn’t stamp the tickets; so we went with him along with one Viennese girl who didn’t have a ticket.
Another two controllers were there at the station and asked to see our IDs and whether we are tourists, they let the girl go and told us that we must pay 70 euros for not stamping our tickets. We told them that we are tourists and that there is no gate for stamping tickets, and we didn’t see people stamping anything, but they insisted either we pay or accompany them to the police station. We thought the police would listen to us, but when we arrived they told us that the controller in the station is a police man undercover, and insisted that we must pay the fine for not knowing that we must stamp the tickets.
We told them we want to make a complaint regarding letting the other girl go without paying even though she didn’t have a ticket and we were tourists who had tickets, so they said you must pay and then make a complaint.
After we paid the money we left to the office where they told us we can complain, we were shocked there that when they checked with the controller he said that we were three people, two tourists with tickets and a Viennese friend who didn’t have a ticket, and that we are lying because it was not us who paid the fine it was our friend. They said they cannot do anything to us in the complaint office because we already paid the fine, and because police was there too.
I can’t believe that they treat tourists that way, the last thing I expected is to be fooled by a policeman. 3 police officers and two controllers were there in the police station and heard the whole conversation and this didn't stop him from telling a big lie.
Surprisingly, my ticket was checked two days before the incident by another controller and he didn’t mention anything about stamping the ticket, I had another ticket then it was a two zone ticket but from what I know now it should have been stamped also!!!.
They ruined my vacation by doing that, please be careful, stamp the tickets, and if you have a complaint do not pay the fine before doing so…
May 24th, 2010, 03:17 AM
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I must admit that I do not get all of your story. But I am sorry that you had such a bad experience.
What some tourists are not familiar with is that "fare dodging" is a felony under the penal code of many jurisdiction, e.g. in Austria or Germany. If the transport authority had wished to press charges, you would be treated similar to someone caught shoplifting.
The transport authorities usually waive that right if you agree to pay an "additional transportation fee", what colloquially is called a penalty fare. Which is 70 Euro in Vienna.
Why did you have to pay on the spot, and that other girl not?
The Austrian girl was probably able to produce her ID card. So she might have a few days to pay her 70 Euro, if she does not pay, she will be prosecuted.
You, as a foreigner, would have left the country with no possibilty to prosecute you abroad.
If you advice other foreigners not to pay the penalty fare, there is at least a good chance that they will get familiar with some legal action.
You said that you had not stamped your ticket. In that case, neither you nor your partner had a valid ticket. And you got a 50% "discount" since both of you could have been fined 70 Euro.
What some tourists are not familiar with is that "fare dodging" is a felony under the penal code of many jurisdiction, e.g. in Austria or Germany. If the transport authority had wished to press charges, you would be treated similar to someone caught shoplifting.
The transport authorities usually waive that right if you agree to pay an "additional transportation fee", what colloquially is called a penalty fare. Which is 70 Euro in Vienna.
Why did you have to pay on the spot, and that other girl not?
The Austrian girl was probably able to produce her ID card. So she might have a few days to pay her 70 Euro, if she does not pay, she will be prosecuted.
You, as a foreigner, would have left the country with no possibilty to prosecute you abroad.
If you advice other foreigners not to pay the penalty fare, there is at least a good chance that they will get familiar with some legal action.
You said that you had not stamped your ticket. In that case, neither you nor your partner had a valid ticket. And you got a 50% "discount" since both of you could have been fined 70 Euro.
May 24th, 2010, 03:35 AM
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Sorry about your experience!
I don't know the regulations pertaining to that town. But for future reference, if any police officer demands payment from you, ask them for their name, ID, badge number and supervisor name.
On a different note, when we visited Vienna in 2004, my mom was almost pickpocketed by gypsies. Poor woman. The gypsies left her traumatized. She went up to the tram conductor to ask for confirmation and the gypsies reached into her handbag.Before they could take anything, she yelled, "what are you doing?!"
I don't know the regulations pertaining to that town. But for future reference, if any police officer demands payment from you, ask them for their name, ID, badge number and supervisor name.
On a different note, when we visited Vienna in 2004, my mom was almost pickpocketed by gypsies. Poor woman. The gypsies left her traumatized. She went up to the tram conductor to ask for confirmation and the gypsies reached into her handbag.Before they could take anything, she yelled, "what are you doing?!"
May 24th, 2010, 03:54 AM
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Many people don't understand why it is necessary to stamp the ticket, and why you are fined even if you can show the conductor a ticket.
Unless you stamp your ticket, it can be used over and over and over. You could take 20 train rides even though you only paid for one.
By stamping the ticket, you are being your own "conductor". You are ruining the possibility that your ticket to be used again for "free" rides on following days.
Most European countries do not want to pay what it costs to put enough train conductors on every train to check all the tickets of all the passengers getting on and off.
Instead, they spot-check tickets and make people who don't follow the rules pay huge penalties so that other people aren't tempted to dodge the law.
On many European train lines, there are plenty of tourists who are trying to beat the law and ride free. So police and train conductors may not believe you if you tell them you made an innocent mistake.
In Italy, if you forget to stamp your ticket in the station and only remember when you are on the moving train, you should write the date and time on the ticket, and it will be accepted as stamped.
But you may not be able to talk your way out of a big fine if you don't ruin your own ticket before the conductor sees it, either by stamping it in the station or writing the date and time on it.
Unless you stamp your ticket, it can be used over and over and over. You could take 20 train rides even though you only paid for one.
By stamping the ticket, you are being your own "conductor". You are ruining the possibility that your ticket to be used again for "free" rides on following days.
Most European countries do not want to pay what it costs to put enough train conductors on every train to check all the tickets of all the passengers getting on and off.
Instead, they spot-check tickets and make people who don't follow the rules pay huge penalties so that other people aren't tempted to dodge the law.
On many European train lines, there are plenty of tourists who are trying to beat the law and ride free. So police and train conductors may not believe you if you tell them you made an innocent mistake.
In Italy, if you forget to stamp your ticket in the station and only remember when you are on the moving train, you should write the date and time on the ticket, and it will be accepted as stamped.
But you may not be able to talk your way out of a big fine if you don't ruin your own ticket before the conductor sees it, either by stamping it in the station or writing the date and time on it.
May 24th, 2010, 04:05 AM
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thank you for your replies,
What I want to communicate is that I've been to many other countries where it was obvious that you need to pass through a gate so it would be clear to tourists but in vienna there was no gate and people passing in front of us did not stamp. so I don't want this to happen to anyone else.
Considering what Cowboy1968 have said, every tourist would have to pay and not being able to complain afterwards because he already paid (as been told by the complaint office).
The other viennese girl was not given a fine, and when I talked to the controller about letting her go without a fine he got confused and said that she had a ticket, but why would he ask her to go out to the station if she did.. All his story about our illusionary viennese friend is to avoid being questioned about that matter.
He didn't fine one of us because I had a 24 hr ticket that was bourght in less than 24 hr duration, but my husband couldn't find his 24 hr ticket before getting into the subway so he bought single way ticket.
Am sorry hobbitthefoodlover to hear the story that happened to ur mom, this happens alot to tourists and am sure that it could ruin their vacation.
I didn't expect something like that act from a police officer.
What I want to communicate is that I've been to many other countries where it was obvious that you need to pass through a gate so it would be clear to tourists but in vienna there was no gate and people passing in front of us did not stamp. so I don't want this to happen to anyone else.
Considering what Cowboy1968 have said, every tourist would have to pay and not being able to complain afterwards because he already paid (as been told by the complaint office).
The other viennese girl was not given a fine, and when I talked to the controller about letting her go without a fine he got confused and said that she had a ticket, but why would he ask her to go out to the station if she did.. All his story about our illusionary viennese friend is to avoid being questioned about that matter.
He didn't fine one of us because I had a 24 hr ticket that was bourght in less than 24 hr duration, but my husband couldn't find his 24 hr ticket before getting into the subway so he bought single way ticket.
Am sorry hobbitthefoodlover to hear the story that happened to ur mom, this happens alot to tourists and am sure that it could ruin their vacation.
I didn't expect something like that act from a police officer.
May 24th, 2010, 04:17 AM
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I didn't quite understand all your story either. However, I can understand the confusion about stamping tickets.
In many places in Europe, public transport works on an honor system. If you don't know the city's public transport system well, always check your tickets - see if they're specifically time stamped (individual ride tickets might be, strip tickets and 24 hour tickets usually aren't). If not, you must stamp them somehow, so look for a ticket validation machine before boarding or "crossing the line" into the area where a valid ticket is necessary. Sometimes the machines are fairly small and easily overlooked by a confused tourist new to the system. However, the police have every right to fine you if you make a mistake.
Sorry you went through this, but the only way these wonderful public transport systems can survive is if everyone pays their way. Without validation, cheats would use the same one fare ticket over and over. (I know you're not one of them.)
In many places in Europe, public transport works on an honor system. If you don't know the city's public transport system well, always check your tickets - see if they're specifically time stamped (individual ride tickets might be, strip tickets and 24 hour tickets usually aren't). If not, you must stamp them somehow, so look for a ticket validation machine before boarding or "crossing the line" into the area where a valid ticket is necessary. Sometimes the machines are fairly small and easily overlooked by a confused tourist new to the system. However, the police have every right to fine you if you make a mistake.
Sorry you went through this, but the only way these wonderful public transport systems can survive is if everyone pays their way. Without validation, cheats would use the same one fare ticket over and over. (I know you're not one of them.)
May 24th, 2010, 04:21 AM
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that's really unfortunate. usually they are more forgiving when tourists make mistakes like this.
i don't see why a 24 hour ticket would make any difference because usually they are effective for 24 hours (or whatever) from the date/time they are stamped. so if you fail to stamp it, it's no different than not stamping a single ticket, from a potential fraud point of view.
second comment is that in these situations, i don't find it at all productive to raise issues or questions about other people (ie the viennese girl). for many reasons: you imply that you are being singled out for unfair treatment and this accusation gets peoples' backs up. you also don't know their situation at all so how can you argue it properly-this puts you in a hole and prevents you from getting the sympathy that you need. finally, they shouldn't even be talking about someone else with you as this raises privacy concerns.
i don't see why a 24 hour ticket would make any difference because usually they are effective for 24 hours (or whatever) from the date/time they are stamped. so if you fail to stamp it, it's no different than not stamping a single ticket, from a potential fraud point of view.
second comment is that in these situations, i don't find it at all productive to raise issues or questions about other people (ie the viennese girl). for many reasons: you imply that you are being singled out for unfair treatment and this accusation gets peoples' backs up. you also don't know their situation at all so how can you argue it properly-this puts you in a hole and prevents you from getting the sympathy that you need. finally, they shouldn't even be talking about someone else with you as this raises privacy concerns.
May 24th, 2010, 04:42 AM
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"people passing in front of us did not stamp"
That´s because most commuters have monthly passes.
And a lot of people use so called handy tickets, that is buying tickets using their mobile phone (you may buy parking time that way too).
That´s because most commuters have monthly passes.
And a lot of people use so called handy tickets, that is buying tickets using their mobile phone (you may buy parking time that way too).
May 24th, 2010, 05:05 AM
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I am sorry for what happened but please do not let this ruin your memories of your trip. Think of the fun things you did and the beauty you saw in Vienna. Please don't let this incident overshadow the good things about Vienna.
May 24th, 2010, 05:48 AM
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No compassion from me as most all travel sites mention needs to stamp tickets and how to do it - even the Vienna transport website
www.wienerlinien.at
in the tourist ticket section offers instructions on validing tickets.
most replies concerning public transport in Vienna mention the need to stamp the ticket on this site and others.
Some make no inquiries regarding useage and then having not investigated or planned properly then complain of unfair treatment. No excuse.
The Vienna transport system works very welll with the " Honor System " but misuse is punishable by law. The fine is payable immediately - also per regulations. The system inspectors have heard every excuse. In fact some years ago a campaighn was used to remind travelers to have validated tickets and part of the advertisement were 100 excuses why users did not have a valid ticket.
The 24 hour ticket needs validation too - as you were not fined for riding with this ticket you had either stamped it previously or the enforcement official took pity to you and did not require a second fine.
Most locals have monthly , yearly, weekly or perhaps school tickets and thus find no need to stamp ticket upon entering the transport system.
If one forgets the ticket and produce it later , they have their names taken and must produce the ticket in a certain time period - perhaps this was the case of the girl.
As it seems you do not speak german and thus could not have known the circumstances of this matter of the girl , it is impossible to judge.
www.wienerlinien.at
in the tourist ticket section offers instructions on validing tickets.
most replies concerning public transport in Vienna mention the need to stamp the ticket on this site and others.
Some make no inquiries regarding useage and then having not investigated or planned properly then complain of unfair treatment. No excuse.
The Vienna transport system works very welll with the " Honor System " but misuse is punishable by law. The fine is payable immediately - also per regulations. The system inspectors have heard every excuse. In fact some years ago a campaighn was used to remind travelers to have validated tickets and part of the advertisement were 100 excuses why users did not have a valid ticket.
The 24 hour ticket needs validation too - as you were not fined for riding with this ticket you had either stamped it previously or the enforcement official took pity to you and did not require a second fine.
Most locals have monthly , yearly, weekly or perhaps school tickets and thus find no need to stamp ticket upon entering the transport system.
If one forgets the ticket and produce it later , they have their names taken and must produce the ticket in a certain time period - perhaps this was the case of the girl.
As it seems you do not speak german and thus could not have known the circumstances of this matter of the girl , it is impossible to judge.
May 24th, 2010, 06:47 AM
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I had a first recently when I had my Oyster checked.
The station I had departed from just had a touch pad and no barrier, so I imagine that they do spot checks.
The man told me the exact time I had touched the pad, and "I see you've been on the bus".
Boris knows all about me ;-)
The station I had departed from just had a touch pad and no barrier, so I imagine that they do spot checks.
The man told me the exact time I had touched the pad, and "I see you've been on the bus".
Boris knows all about me ;-)
May 24th, 2010, 09:51 AM
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You took it extremely calmly Dimabt, co-operating and truly believing you would get justice. I am so sorry you where conned. I am of the opinion it is up to the authorities to make it perfectly clear as to what a traveller should do before boarding - At least put up big signs in English reminding passengers where to go through a stamping procedure!
Two years ago we witnessed 2 American boys having an all out argument about their tickets to Munich - They refused to back down and eventually the conductor on the train gave up.
Two years ago we witnessed 2 American boys having an all out argument about their tickets to Munich - They refused to back down and eventually the conductor on the train gave up.
May 24th, 2010, 10:58 AM
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It's unfortunate that it you had to pay a fine to learn this lesson - but now you know that YOU are responsible to understand the rules of any local transit that you use. If unsure, ask at your hotel before heading out into the system.
And agree that you had to pay on the spot sinceyou were tourists and most people don;t stamp since they are local and have a monthly.
As for 79 euros, here a basic parking ticket is $150 (even if the sign is unclear or partly hidden by tree branches or you are only 1 minute over the metered time) - and egregious tickets (fire hydrants or handicapped spots) are $250 and up. So 70 euros doesn;t look so bad.
And agree that you had to pay on the spot sinceyou were tourists and most people don;t stamp since they are local and have a monthly.
As for 79 euros, here a basic parking ticket is $150 (even if the sign is unclear or partly hidden by tree branches or you are only 1 minute over the metered time) - and egregious tickets (fire hydrants or handicapped spots) are $250 and up. So 70 euros doesn;t look so bad.
May 24th, 2010, 02:32 PM
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Every single guidebook has a section on "Basic information", and each one describes how the transportation works and what a tourist needs to do regarding "validating" his/her ticket.
Sounds like you never read that section in your guidebook.
Sounds like you never read that section in your guidebook.
May 24th, 2010, 03:58 PM
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PS - I ran into a situation the other day in my own city that was not explained at all on the website, in any printed material or at any of the bus stops (switching from a regular bus to an express bus during rush hour) and yet would be a fairly common thing to do for passengers. I phoned the transit authority and after some reflection they admitted this was quite an oversight on their part.
Pity the poor tourist coming to our city, even if they do speak English or French (the transit rules are published in both). We hand out tickets here as well.
Pity the poor tourist coming to our city, even if they do speak English or French (the transit rules are published in both). We hand out tickets here as well.
May 24th, 2010, 09:38 PM
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Ok, maybe conned was not the right word to use - perhaps treated rather harshly/unsympathetically would have been better, but I'm with Colduphere's sentiments here.
I am well travelled, yet after many years still have a sense of confusion in a strange country or even building/street/city.....Any tourist that travels with his or her head screwed on securely and knows exactly what, where and how the world looks around them when they are rushing hither and thither have my greatest admiration!
I am well travelled, yet after many years still have a sense of confusion in a strange country or even building/street/city.....Any tourist that travels with his or her head screwed on securely and knows exactly what, where and how the world looks around them when they are rushing hither and thither have my greatest admiration!
May 24th, 2010, 11:22 PM
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It is the custom in Vienna and I am certain many places elsewhere to remove patrons without proper tickets at the next stop.
It is also the law here to have the fine paid immediately.
This is not harsh or unsympathetic- just the regulations for everyone - local or visitor.
The Vienna Transport system is clean , effificent and not expensive.
Their website is extensive with a section devoted to tourists explaining the various tickets and even a section on how to punch the ticket to valiidate it.
The ticket has one end in a distinctly different color devoted to the stamping process.
The website even has a route planner that permits visitors to insert beginning address and destination and find the best route including maps to use.
All the above available in english.
The system has many information and ticket offices - some in gateway areas such as train stations stops and city center like Stephansplatz ( the very center and central ara of Vienna)
The concise information is available for useage of the transport system - all anyone needs to do, seasoned traveler or novice is spend just a few minutes to research it
It is also the law here to have the fine paid immediately.
This is not harsh or unsympathetic- just the regulations for everyone - local or visitor.
The Vienna Transport system is clean , effificent and not expensive.
Their website is extensive with a section devoted to tourists explaining the various tickets and even a section on how to punch the ticket to valiidate it.
The ticket has one end in a distinctly different color devoted to the stamping process.
The website even has a route planner that permits visitors to insert beginning address and destination and find the best route including maps to use.
All the above available in english.
The system has many information and ticket offices - some in gateway areas such as train stations stops and city center like Stephansplatz ( the very center and central ara of Vienna)
The concise information is available for useage of the transport system - all anyone needs to do, seasoned traveler or novice is spend just a few minutes to research it
May 24th, 2010, 11:24 PM
#20
Our regional transportation has come up with a new tariff system that still leaves me confused.
I'm not sure what happened but people forget to stamp their tickets all the time. It pays to be very polite, apologetic and charming to the conductors if they catch you. Most are sympathetic towards tourists.
Sorry about your troubles. Vienna has some of the "schrägest" (oddest) people around.
I'm not sure what happened but people forget to stamp their tickets all the time. It pays to be very polite, apologetic and charming to the conductors if they catch you. Most are sympathetic towards tourists.
Sorry about your troubles. Vienna has some of the "schrägest" (oddest) people around.
