No, don't bother going all the way to Bordeaux. Your time is limited. I wouldn't even go as far as the Atlantic, though Biarritz is great (St.-Jean-de-Luz is even better), and I'd even question Andorra.

Andorra was a tourist attraption [sic] already 40 years ago--mainly a duty free haven. The Pyrenees are beautiful almost everywhere, no need to go to Andorra. But do go to Taüll for the frescoes (that's on the Spanish side) and the Cirque de Gavarnie for the impressive scenery (that's on the French side).

I haven't been in Andorra since May 2004. We did some 15 hiking routes over there and it was nice and easy.
The driving took quite a lot of time, because the roads are very slow. I've heard that it has become much worse, because of the traffic - especially during the summer months June, July and August!
Instead of going to Andorra I would consider visiting the Pyrenees mountains in Spain. The valleys of Ordesa and Benasque (in Huesca, Aragon) for example are fantastic.
You can study the routes and views here:
http://www.topwalks.net/en/index.htm
Under Huesca and Aragon, choose Nature park Posets-Maladeta or National park Ordesa and Monte Perdido, and you will find the routes in Ordesa and Benasque valleys. There are a lot of photographs in this site.
I dare to say that these routes on Spanish Pyrenees are much more interesting than the ones in Andorra. And there are very good information on them available.

What about bypassing Andorra and stead going up to Cadaques, Perpignan & Carcassonne and than to Basque Country?

SS

You don't have time for all that. And what are you referring to as "Basque Country?" It encompasses a LOT of territory and two coasts.

Some of you have recommended bypassing Andorra, is it not worth a visit? I am considering doing a day-trip from Carcassonne to Andorra.

s

A day trip is a waste of time unless you know of some duty free items you want to pick up. Andorra was a tourist attraption 40 years ago. I can't imagine that it has improved.

I went through france from San Sebastian to Barcelona, criss-crossing the Pyrenees.

I loved San Sebastian.

I loved driving along the French Basque coast.

I found St Jean de Luz pointlessly touristy. I more enjoyed the lower key port of Ciboure, which is right at its toe-step.

I wiggled in and out and all around the French and Spanish Pyrenees, spending nights in Cauterets and Aix-en-Thermes. I wish I had spent a bit of time hiking around Pont d'Espagne. I had been told Andorra was an ugly place that sucked in duty-free hounds, but I still have a twine of regret I didn't follow my nose all the way to the high peaks. The mountain driving can be addictive.

I spent nights in Collioure -- which was so touristy cute I hated it. I used it as a base to visit Perpignan, but if I had it do over again, I would have stayed in Perpignan (or Foix) and gone to Narbonne or perhaps Carcassone.

I spent nights in Cadaques. It's pretty and has a sweet hippy-dippy culture, but it is a pain to get in and out of for day trips, and for the feel of a "white village" Spanish-Catalonian beach town, I much preferred Calella da Palafrugell, which could be used as a base for forays into the Pyrenees foothills of Catalonia, and some rather fascinating towns of the plains as well (like Girona, Vic and Castello d'Empuries).

If I had it to do all over again I would not visit Bilbao, or St Jean de Luz (although I would visit the French Basque coast). I would spend more time on both the Spanish and French side of the Pyrenees out of my car, doing a bit of high peaks hiking. I would skip St Bertrand des Comminges or St Jean Pied Pont or other quaint tourist towns in preference of high-peaks vistas and walking. I would skip Collioure in favor of the funkier Banyuls sul Mer, but skip them both to spend more time in Catalonia.

Hope that helps!

I was in Andorra last summer. I'm glad I went because I'd wanted to go since I was a kid but I wouldn't go again and I wouldn't make a day trip there from Carcassonne.

Instead I'd go to Foix and/or Mirepoix if you're looking to get out of Carcassonne for a day.

The prices in Andorra were no bargains for me in the electronics/camera line of things... they are less expensive in Canada where I live. Booze and cigarettes seemed cheap but it's a long way to go to get them and the French were checking cars on the way back to France...

Rob

Personally, I think Foix is a dump. And I highly doubt you'd find Collioure or St-Jean-de-Luz over-touristed unless you came to them with the jaded attitude of someone who already lives on the Med and can wander to more remote spots anytime at whim. Collioure is crowded in summer, like lots of places along the shore in Europe. It's an artists colony, and that makes for an interesting atmosphere, not to mention its lovely setting. St-Jean-de-Luz has some fascinating history, as well as a beautiful setting and some fabulous food and charming hotels. Biarritz is big and glitzy - the most popular surfing venue in Europe and a grand casino. It's all good.

Very nicely said, StCirq! I couldn't have put it better.

First of all, i didn't live on the med when I went to Collioure.

It's not only over touristed -- there's tourists everywhere you look! -- it's kitschy in its approach to art and the art history of the area.

I'm hardly jaded. I've never liked the kinds of tourism you and Maribel urge on other people. Even innocents abroad can feel that away -- but St Cirq, you are just so stuck in your own head.

For the OP, here's a complete album of all the kitsch in Collioure:

http://photos.linternaute.com/paysville/8322/collioure/

SShprints,
If you're still in the market for information about the Pays Basque, coast and inland, here's a handy page, with photo albums of all the municipalities, from Urrugne to Ciboure to St-Jean-de-Luz.
www.terreetcotebasques.com/home/index.php?L=2

And for the Spanish side,
from Bilbao to the Urdaibai Biosphere Reserve to the fishing villages of Hondarribia and Lekeitio to the resorts of Zarauz and San Sebastián look at

www.basquecountry-tourism.com/home.php

If you are looking for a cliche-idea of Europe, Fodor's messages boards and others can surely supply. Google up the word "cute" and "Collioure" and you'll get enough hits.

People -- perhaps -- understandably travel to Europe looking for something they've already got in their heads. The tourist spots are there to set up for you to find it.

Obviously sophisticated people don't want accordion players -- but some have more tolerance for little choo-choo trains either and having their art history literally -- I mean literally -- framed for them.

Of course Collioure can be photographed to show empty streets, no art kitsch displays, and no choo-choo train.

So many people enjoy this kind of tourism and the template for it, I don't why anybody being a cheerleader for Fodor's should feel threatened by my honest reactions to Collioure or express bitterly intended comments about my psyche when I made it perfectly plain to the OP these were just my subjective reactions. St Cirq seems to think she's universal woman or everybody's travel mother.

Here's the Collioure's little tourist choo-choo

http://www.collioure.com/images/loisirs/0326%20petit%20train%20touristique.jpg

Collioure helpfully puts up for you a reproduction of a real artist's painting of what you're seeing!

http://www.laroque.org/Collioure-art.JPG

Cute, huh? Those funny fauves!

http://www.paulwrightjewellery.com/blog/uploaded_images/Collioure-744079.jpg

better to go off season when all the chairs aren't filled, unless you like crowds of tourists

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6006068/i/Collioure_from_cafe_ezr.JPG

Really, there is more to Europe and France (and Fauvism). For many people, the whole point of traveling to Europe is snapshots of things that aren't the whole story -- but print the legend, right?

I just can't get into it. I keep seeing what's outside the frame.

Sorry SSH -- I was attracted to your thread because you expressed an interest in going to Andorra. Thought I'd share my decidely quirky point of view of Europe beyond the carefully framed tourist snapshot.

Zeppole : the "carefully framed tourist snapshot" is part of a permanent exhibition by an artist called Marc André de Figueres - http://www.ma2f.com/pages/actu.php

If you click on Galeries, then Sculptures, you will see that the frames sell for €22,000 .... but I agree, it does not have the charm and the quaintness of Andorra :

http://www.andorramania.com/vapas/pas_010.jpg

Yes, yes, I already knew that Pvyoygeuse. I have a lot of respect for Catalan culture and the Fauvists, and the concept -- at least what comes across in photos and critiques -- falls between two stools for me -- not up the best of the tradition and at the same time rather rudely biting the hand that keeps people flocking to Collioure.

I've not been to Andorra, so I have no reaction to it. My reasons for wanting to go, as I posted above, were not because I'd been told it was quaint and charming.

But I will say that I haven't got any problem with people coming to Europe and wanting to see only "charm and quaintness." Not do I have a problem with people coming to Europe to find and confirm the pictures they already have in their head of it -- which doesn't include ipermarkets, right?

What I have a problem with is insisting this a superior form of travel (?) or most especially that these small, isolated places, which have been hived off tourism, means you've been to Europe! Or even -- get this -- since the best place for miles around. You've just seen the most popular one. All along the med there are places as pretty as Collioure that American tourists never go to because they are afraid to go someplace not recommended by a chorus of people pushing quaint.

Europe is a really dynamic place -- and most of it still beautiful. Only tiny parts of it are picture perfect and, increasingly, with the help of the tourist industry large and small, they are becoming culturally unmoored.

Just one more clarification -- for me, it's not pretty vs. unpretty. It's prettified vs. beautiful.

PS pvouageuse, don't tell St Cirq people think there are phallic symbols in Collioure. She'll go ballistic.

Zeppole, I understand what you mean but you can't decide for other people what they should and shouldn't see. I would not say Collioure belongs to the "isolated" kind of places, it happens to be very crowded in summer and so are most of the beach resorts in the area and, by the way, Andorra which turns into a gigantic parking lot as soon as the snow begins to melt.
When people only have 1 or 2 nights to spend in an area, they might as well spend them in a picture-like place instead of roaming the countryside in search for "hidden" treasures which they might never find.

Pvoyaguese,

Would you please read my first post in this thread?

I described my own trip and my own experiences. PERIOD.

But because I said I hated Collioure, St Cirq comes in and insults me and you back her up.

In response, I've posted multiple times I've nothing against Americans looking for snapshots.

And I've never been to Andorra. I might have hated it.

What is wrong with you?

Wait. Let me guess: You own a tourist industry business.

When St Cirq pronounces Foix "a dump," nobody rushes in to call her jaded like she does other people who dare to express their opinions on Fodor's. I've only driven through Foix (rushing to get to highly-recommended Collioure, alas) and wished I'd made time to look more closely at the castle and the astonishing post office.

But here's an opinion of a writer who stayed longer than I did, and published this in the Independent UK of St Cirq' s idea of a "dump":

"Foix, the departmental capital, sits in the centre of the Ariège like a spider in its web. Sheltered in a natural valley where the rivers Ariège and Arget meet, this has long been a site of great strategic importance - from prehistoric times, through the Visigoth and Merovingian eras, to the wars of occupation of the 13th century. There is plenty of interesting modern architecture - especially an astounding 1930s art deco post office on the main street - and a well-preserved medieval centre.

"Foix is a city dominated by its castle. Where the ruined citadel of Montségur speaks of gods and giants and kingdoms in the clouds, the castle at * * Foix proclaims the might of men. In the Albigensian Crusade of the 13th century, it was the only fortress never taken by the northern French invaders. The foundations of the current castle dates from 1000. The chateau sits, dominant, splendid, powerful, on top of a rock that looks as if it might have fallen from the sky. The climb up to the chateau itself is not for the faint-hearted. A surprisingly discreet wrought-iron gate at the bottom leads to steps, then you find yourself on an open, steep, cobblestone ramp that zigzags up the side of the mountain on which the chateau sits.

"But it's worth it. The view from the top is breathtaking. The rivers, the lights, the church of St-Volusien down below, and the castle itself. There are two distinctive square towers which date from the 12th and 13th centuries, as well as the 15th-century round tower, which boasts an Errol Flynn-style winding stone staircase and allows you to climb to the very top, weather permitting.

"Since 1930, the chateau has been the home of the collection of the Musée Departémental d'Ariège. There are artefacts dating from prehistoric times, Gallo-Roman remains but if, like me, you're a sucker for swords and all things medieval, best of all is the fabulous collection of armour and weapons. For a while, I sat in silence on a metal bench, writing in my head scenes for my next novel ..."

I guess more than one kind of person goes to France and find different things to enjoy. Who'da thunk?

Zeppole :
I don't own a tourist industry business.
I am not American, I am French
I live 10 miles from Collioure and not too far from Andorra
I don't know St Cirq and what happens between you and her is none of my business.
I don't come here to back anybody up, and
I don't come here either to have complete strangers make rude and unconsiderate remarks asking "what is wrong with me".

I just love it that I, who bought a place in France 18 years ago in a TEENY commune (take that, Camogli) of 311 people that had probably never even seen an American, am being portrayed, along with Maribel (probably the board's most qualified Spain expert) as someone who steers people to "touristy" spots. In fact, we steer people to spots we are pretty sure they will find charming and interesting. That would include both places that are heavily touristed at certain times of year and places that are relatively unknown.
There's no formula. We respond to people as they ask questions, trying to fathom what kind of traveler they are.

Did you go to Collioure in high season, Zeppole? Given your exceptionally highly sophisticated knowledge about Europe and your resistance to anything that smacks of touristy, that was a dumb move. Do you know anything at all about the history in St-Jean-de-Luz, or did you, you sophisticated, quirky, only-go-to-out-of-the-way-places traveler, you, just stroll the main street and check out the tourists? Oh well, perhaps history doesn't interest you as much as being a quirky traveler who seeks totally hidden venues.

The fact that you feel the need to respond about a zillion times to your own postings and to point out how "quirky" you are speaks volumes.

Some of us here just answer questions as best we can.