ATM scammers are an ongoing and old problem. Most likely they had rigged some sort of camera at the aTM that picked up the number on the debit or ATM card and your PIN. It is for this reason, I never use my primary account's debit caqrd for ATM withdrawals. I have a special internet bank where I transfer funds just before leaving and my own bank is always available to me (I pay nothing else out of the internet bank so if that is scammed, none of my outstanding checks turn to rubber or anything like that). So ineffect I have two accounts to withdraw from and have a back up.

I always cover with my hands the pin kehyboard so they can't see with the camera the pin number (unless they have cameras that can penatrate flesh and bone).

Fraud is gong to go on unfortunately no matter how careful you are (although again I suspect you didn't cover the key pad when punching in your pin unless they really rigged the ATM and have figured out how to read your key strokes).

BGTW when they drained your account, was it with purchases using the debit card in lieuy of a credit card? Remember such transactions do not need pins...the pin only protects ATM withdrawals. So another way to avoid problems is to keep as little as possible in the internet account and fund it via internet banking just before you're going to need to take out cash.

These are some precautions but the bottom line is these vermin are one step ahead of us and all the more a reaon for adoption of chip and pin for USA credit and debit cards (although this will stop pos fraud, internet fraud would still be a problem).....

Sorry to hear about your experience. The mistakes done by your bank (calling you and assuming that things were OK while you told them you were traveling) might indicate that this is not the best bank to patronize.

xyz: We absolutely DO cover the keypad with our hands and we've had the same number for so long we don't even need to "peep" while punching them in. Also, I noted in the report that this was an ATM-only card. The bank thinks they had a scanner in the machine. This would also explain how they got our friend's information immediately after ours.

We will do as you suggested and put travel funds in a separate, small account next time and shift as needed.

Michael: About the bank? I agree. We're looking at how other banks handle travel notification right now. We've been with this bank (all iterations of it) for over 40 years.

One thing we'll def look for is an opportunity to have a chip.

Fortunately this has never happened to us but would it have helped to call the bank prior to departure to inform them you would be traveling and using your card out of the country? We always do this and leave them our cell phone # so they can contact us if needed. This may have avoided the problem of them calling your home.

MelJ...I hope you realize I wasn't being accusatory just throwing out suggestions. I wish you well in getting this resolved as expediteously as possible.

Angela, we always tell the bank. That's why I mentioned that it's wrong that they allow it to be used in the states even though we told them we'd be overseas. As I said, telling them only prevents you from getting flagged overseas.

Also always tell our credit card companies where we'll be.

Angela.....while it is considered standard practice to call yur bank and I am not saying not to do it, from my experience it doesn't do any good one way or another. I've called and had the bank put a temporary hold on my credit cards, I've not called and charged a couple of thousand dollars worth and not a peep. Let's face it...the crooks are a step ahead of all of us no matter how much we follow and make all the precautions!

Oh, gosh, xyz, not at all! I appreciate what you said (especially the "vermin" part!)

Sorry for your misfortune, Mel. Thanks for the warning. When we leave next, I will make sure our bank has an email address to reach us. Good idea. I hope you get all your money back.

So sorry for your problem....I had an similar issue right here where I live in NYC - somehow my ATM card was scammed and I only use it at my bank's ATM's never anywhere else....I was lucky though the thief checked my balance and evidently there were several other transactions with stolen card numbers and the fraud dept. caught it before my money was taken....

It's a worse hassle, of course, when you are traveling....and my bank didn't even call or email -they sent me a letter that my card was closed out...

Good tip to leave your email address with your bank, thanks.

For a few years there, every card we had was frauded, but now we are all chip and pin and have had no further problems.

So someone can just have your ATM card number and PIN and get cash? I am not familiar with these machines. You don't need the card itself to withdraw funds? Or, are they withdrawing out of your checking account straight from the bank using only the account number? I'm trying to figure a way that this doesn't happen to me. I travel solo and depend on my ATM cards.

Thanks, all. Not sure if I made it clear, but the bank DID put the money back in--it just took five days and they call it a "loan" until they finish the investigation and make sure we aren't scamming them. When we got back there was a letter from the bank stating that they finished the investigation and considered it closed.

We were lucky our daughter had her son's college tuition money available Before you ask, I couldn't transfer in from our savings because that's in separate places, other than an old account with $38 in it

Does the bank have an explanation for allowing withdrawals over you limit?

My credit union has a low daily limit ($400) and won't raise it. It's one of the reasons they can keep fees low.

Ky: The bank just said, "yes, that shouldn't have happened." We have a $500 limit and they won't raise it (well, they won't raise it for US, for scammers it's a matter of "help yourself."

scatcat.....the scamming device reads the magnetic strip on the card and thery somehow compromised the pin number. Therefore the pieces of garbage have equipment, readilly available, to copy the information to a blank magnetic strip. Since they're using an atm machine they don't need to use any particular card. They insert the card in the ATM, enter the pin number and voila, they have your cash. This is the key weakness of the magnetic strips and the push for chip and pin where even if you steal the numbers on the card, the information is stored on the chip along with the pin and it is claimed it is impossible to counterfeit (although I am sure the criminals are at work or have already compromised to a degree the chip technology).

It's been gong on for years, unfortunately.

MelJ. First of all our main checking account is with PNC. So I was doubly interested in your experience.
A couple of trips ago I started to place funds in my credit union account for cash withdrawals. I stopped using my PNC checking account on trips.
It would still hurt me, believe me if they cleaned out the credit card account. But it wouldn't hurt me as much as the PNC account.
It just is frightening to think that no matter what we can be victims.
Sorry about your experience.

I am always concerned about this type of problem. Others who claimed to have traveled frequently think I am paranoid, but the posting validates that the this type of event happens to even to those who have traveled a lot.

I think the way it works is by skimming the card using a narrow insert in the card slot. To reduce, but perhaps not eliminate, this type of attack, I always peek into the slot as well as jiggle the card slot enclosure hard to make sure it is solidly screwed in. If it is loose, I don't use that ATM machine. They capture the PIN by some sort of video device hidden near the machine. If I see a brochure rack type of thing near the machine, I look around to see if there is a hidden camera. I cover the keypad from such rack as well as from behind me while entering PIN covering the key pad.

I check my email every night for bank alerts confirming the alerts are due to activities I initiated. I change my bank alerts to be extra sensitive during trips.

The aggressiveness of fraud monitoring differs from bank to bank.

What bank in Venice was it, and where was it located? Was the ATM machine inside the bank or was it accessible from the sidewalk?

Also, was the transaction made during banking hours? Most illegal scanners are attached when the bank is closed. If you search the internet, you can see what the various attachments look like. It's much safer to use an ATM when the bank is open for business.

NYC, it was just off of San Marco, in fact on the street with that name. The bank was on a corner and the ATM was outside. I don't recall the name of the bank and I'd have to sift through my travel stuff to find the receipt.

NYC, during banking hours, on a Thursday. What surprises me most, I think, is that the "card" was used the next day in the USA.

There seems to be supposition here that a scamming device fitted to an ATM in Venice was the cause of the problem.

Why then would the thieves use the information to get money in the U.S.? Surely, they would want cash in Italy?

I have not been the victim of this sort of crime. The reports I have read in the U.K. refer to card details being used in the Far East, where accomplices of the scammers were based.

There seems to be supposition

and a good supposition given that two different card holders with two different banks were hit at the same time.

These things happen over and over again. Not only in the major tourist destinations but also in towns which never see more than 10 tourists a week. Had been a big scam in my friends' town in Ireland, right on highstreet, a regular ATM in the bank building.
My somewhat random and probably useless answer to this problem is that I try to withdraw cash not on busy main streets or pedestrian city center streets with many folks around. My guess is that the thugs want as much as they can get and probably won't like less frequented ATM in less populated areas. Or will not try to mess around with ATMs which are inside gas stations and under more supervision than just by a lousy in ATM cam. Probably just a nice try though

.....What bank in Venice was it, and where was it located? Was the ATM machine inside the bank or was it accessible from the sidewalk?.....

More to the point. Did you report this to to Venice police department? You won't be the only victims

chartley....this is the 21st century....as soon as a card is cmpromisedf, there are web sites where these crooks can come up with the numbers and info they need to counterfeit the card, slip it in an ATM anywhere in the world and get cash.

The more usual scam is to get a debit card numbe (not so in this case) and use a counterfeit card to steal whatever either via the internet or even at a pos sale place. The ATM card requires a pin and can usually only be used at an ATM but there is a movement being pushed by merchants because of lower fees to have more people usedebit cards directly on the debit card networks.

But we can't let this unfortunate incident change the way we do business. For example, I laugh when people tell me not to use my credit cards for small purchases because the more you use it, the greater the chances are it can be compromised. I may use my credit card 40 or 50 or even more times a month. I'm not going to change that because I've had my credit card number stolen about 3 or 4 times in the past 20 years and it was traumatic each time to be called by the bank and asked if I had just authorized an $8,000 charge the day after I dined in an American restaurant with the archaic system of handing over your credit card to a waiter to run it through a credit card terminal in a back room. In Europe, they bring the terminal to yo0ur table and the card is in your sight the whole time. Should be mandated in the USA.

The same is true for ATM withdrawals...one tries to be as casreful as possible including covering the key pad when entering the pin number (the 5 key almost always has a raised dot to orient your hand)...but does it mean instead of using an ATM for cash, I'm gong to start carrying cash? As I said upstream, the best way to handle this is with a specific checking account devoted soley to travel. One with no monthly fee, free ATM withdrawals, no foreign transaction fees and one that rebates fees chaarged by ATM network to access a machine other than yur bank. Keep $1.01 in the account. Before leaving, I transfer from my main bank say $50 to cover ATM withdrawals....if I need more, easy enough to transfer money via the internet but if they compromise the account, nothing is lost. Almost the same as pick pocketing an empty pocket!

In any event, this can happen while travelling and it can happen down the street from your office. Just, as always, try to have a bak up plan!

Hi Char,

>Why then would the thieves use the information to get money in the U.S.?<

The Euro is falling against the USD.

There were things they wanted to buy that were cheaper in the US.

They expected that it would be less likely to set off alarms if they looted a US account from the US.

They were Italian thieves on vacation in the States.

Hey Mel,

Thanks for the heads up.

Questions:

1. How does one go about finding a bank in the US that will issue ATM cards with chip and pin?

2. Would using an ATM machine inside a bank lessen the chances of this kind of occurrence?
Any other tips on choosing one particular ATM machine as opposed to others? What do you all think of Cowboy's suggestion to use machines in less trafficked areas of a city or town?

So sorry this happened to you and like others, I appreciate the warning. Shame on your bank, though!

>>> We have a $500 limit and they won't raise it (well, they won't raise it for US, for scammers it's a matter of "help yourself."<<<

Someone higher up at the bank should be informed they are violating banking their own agreement or the software isn't catching it. You can't be the only one that this has happened to.

I used to have a travel only savings account with my daughter and ATM only cards (not debit). We only put money in it when we would be traveling (not together) and it wasn't tied to other accounts (no overdrafts covered by other accounts). A software change two years ago prevented me from accessing it because it was a savings account, not checking. It was no longer recognized as a primary account. My daughter was able to transfer my ATM card to my checking account, but I would really prefer to open another travel only account. They also upgraded their cards to ATM/debit and I wasn't able to get just ATM anymore. The rules are different for debit cards.

**Your loss is limited to $50 if you notify the financial institution within two business days after learning of loss or theft of your card or code.
But you could lose as much as $500 if you do not tell the card issuer within two business days after learning of loss or theft.
If you do not report an unauthorized transfer that appears on your statement within 60 days after the statement is mailed to you, you risk unlimited loss on transfers made after the 60-day period. That means you could lose all the money in your account plus your maximum overdraft line of credit, if any.**

Thanks for the timely warning, sounds like you are very level headed.

ek....as of this moment in time, I don't think any bank in the USA is issuing a debit card with chip and pin...the USA is very reluctantly being pushed into the 21st century as some banks are now issuing credit cards with the emv chip. However in most cases, these are chip and signature cards which I don't think would resolve the issue of fraudulent ATM use.

As far as yur second question is concerned, this scam has been around for years; the equipment is becoming more sophisticated and one would suspect it is much less likely to occur in a bank with the ATM's inside during banking hours but is that a fool proof way to avoid this kind of fraud? I doubt it. As I said, take a look at the ATM to try to convince yourself it has not been tampered with and cover up the key pad completely when entering your pin. Is this fool proof? No according to the OP but as I said, it shouldn't prohibit you from using ATM's and the like. If it happens, yu deal with it. But I don't think you can or should lay away at night worrying about the possibility.

thanks for your story.

when i was in venice in june i only used the atm at deutsche bank next to the jp tod store in san marco.

i reasoned that since deutsche bank was one of the world's leading banks they would have very good security.

thin

There are a lot of unanswered questions in this thread, and I suppose many will remain unanswered. This is the internet, after all. People can type whatever they want to type.

If this had happened to me, the ATM receipt would be next to my keyboard as I typed this thread. I have every ATM receipt from every trip I've ever taken, filed in the Travel section of my file cabinet. I can retrieve a receipt from 1990 in less than three minutes. The only way to help fellow travelers with ATM fraud and abuse is to report vulnerable ATM locations. And to put those banks on notice.

The OP says the bank was "open" but where is the proof? Many banks in Italy take those famous extended lunches. How can we be sure the OP knew the bank was open? Unless the "skimmer" was attached to the machine from the "inside," which suggests an "inside" job (which is ridiculous if you think about it), we have to assume someone placed the skimmer on the face of the machine. I'm sure it happens, but it takes a lot of hubris to risk being caught during "open" business hours. Reliable skimmers are not cheap.

So that begs the question, did the OP look for security cameras above and around the ATM he/she chose? Did the OP analyze the card port before inserting his card? Skimmers have been around for a very long time. There are plenty of photos on the internet to educate careful travelers on what to look for.

Hiding your PIN code won't do anything to protect you from a Skimmer device. You have to learn what to look for BEFORE you insert your card.

So, I would advise:

1. Learn to identify Skimmer devices.
2. Check for security cameras above the ATM machine.
3. Make sure the bank is open before using an ATM, and only use an ATM attached to a bank.
4. Try to locate a bank that houses ATM machines in their vestibule, the kind of Italian bank that has to buzz you in to gain entry.
5. If you see something that looks suspicious, go into the bank and ask questions. Someone is bound to speak enough English, who will help you feel more secure about using their machine.

We have switched our banking to a credit union, which has chip and pin cards. Hopefully that gives us a bit more protection.

I'm wondering if the DC perpetrator can be determined from the video security tapes...if, indeed, it were and ATM only, they would have had to use an ATM to withdraw $$ an all that should be traceable.

There was a TV news story a few months ago about how thieves use these 'skimmer' devices on ATM machines. It appears to be easy to do. The advice was to always feel the ATM card slot and make sure it doesn't have a device there. They said it would usually be loose, as the thieves push them into the slot, then come back and pull them out again.

well, this sounds terrible to me and given it happened to both at the same time, I presume it probably is a skimmer or whatever they are called. I think they just sell that info, that's all, and they happened to sell it to someone in the DC area, it is amazing how quickly that could happen. Although if MelJ lives in the Wash DC area, that sort of points that it would be too much of a coincidence and would make me wonder. Still, the friend having the same thing happen seems clear.

I think telling banks about travel can be problematic as when I tell my CC about it (with mixed success, unfortunately, as Cap One has still blocked charges when I told them twice), I want to be able to make purchases online in advnce, tickets, hotel reservations, etc., so it isn't just a matter of me physically being in a place. In fact, it makes me annoyed that the CS people on the line don't seem to comrephend that fact, that with the internet you can buy things online and not have to be there. Although you couldn't with an ATM card, that's true (versus debit), but they probalby have the same measures in place for both. So I don't really blame them for not blocking the card in the US. Besides, who knows, you could have come home unexpectedly for some reason and needed money.

However, exceeding the limits they have seems really strange, what kind of incompetent bank is this (I am not a customer of PNC, thank goodness), that would just be a computer program. Although since they are restoring the money, I would be relieved.

I've read articles about skimmers attached to those machines you sign CC charges in stores or something really incredible, as I found it astounding that crooks could come into a store and install a machine and no one in the store personnel would have a clue or stop them.

NYC: What is your problem? If you chose not to believe me because "this is the internet, anyone can type whatever they want," I could care less and I wonder why you posted, except to show your snarky side. I've been on this board since the late 1990s so I would hope my credibiity would be as clear as it can be on the internet. Paranoia will destroy ya.

I gave a lot of information. More than I would have liked (such as the name of my bank) because you asked. You would have your ATM slip by your computer, you say? Why? This happened three weeks ago. I traveled for two more weeks. I'm still unpacking.

After you asked me if I took the withdrawal during banking hours and I said, yes, you now ask how I knew the bank was open because they take siestas. Okay, ya got me. It was around 11:00 in the morning. No idea if they were open. Just assumed by the time that they were. Good grief.

Ms. Prism: I didn't report it to the bank because I didn't know about it for over a week. When I did find out, I told my bank (and the fraud dept) where it was and they have my ATM slip so I would hope that, dept to dept they would alert the bank.

Thanks to all who said they gleamed something useful from this thread. That was my point. I sure didn't enjoy reliving the experience but I think it's important to give a heads-up when something like this happens.

"NYC: What is your problem?"
I'm just a researcher who likes facts. I don't view that as a "problem."

"I've been on this board since the late 1990s so I would hope my credibiity"
I have no idea who you are. And nor do I care about the status of your credibility. You wrote what you wrote, and I merely responded to it.

"I gave a lot of information."
Perhaps. But you also left a few important holes.

The name of your U.S. bank doesn't interest me. The precise ATM you used in Venice does.

"You would have your ATM slip by your computer, you say? Why? This happened three weeks ago. I traveled for two more weeks. I'm still unpacking."
This year's travel receipts are in a folder marked 2012 RECEIPTS, immediately to the right of my mouse pad. I don't care how you organize your life. All I can comment on is how I would handle myself if an ATM fraud happened to me in Venice. Clearly, we see the sharing of details differently.

"After you asked me if I took the withdrawal during banking hours and I said, yes, you now ask how I knew the bank was open because they take siestas. Okay, ya got me. It was around 11:00 in the morning. No idea if they were open. Just assumed by the time that they were. Good grief."
Ah, that lovely word "assume." So now your story becomes just a bit clearer.

The precise time of your ATM bank withdrawal is on your ATM receipt. It's not that difficult to supply precise information so that readers don't panic, and figure out how to avoid a similar mishap.

I appreciate your heads-up. And I hope others learn from your experience. Thank you for sharing.

I have Comcast Xfinity internet,cable and phone service. I receive an email anytime a voicemail message is left. Particularly handy when I am away.

Mel we all thank you. I particularly like the idea of opening a separate account with its own card, in fact, I'm going to do that right away.

Although no one wants to deal with a situation like this on holiday, it's true that, no matter how careful we are these things sometimes happen.

The advantage of cards without chip pin is that the bank covers the loss. With chip and pin cards, although more secure, the bank holds the owner of the card more responsible:

Quote from the new Disclosure Statement from my credit card

"You are responsible for the full amount of all activity or other transactions which occur before we receive notification that your PIN, Password or Card was lost or stolen or that your ConnectID, PIN or Password may have become known to an unauthorized person because we will consider that activity authorized by you."

Extra reason to be diligent. But, as you say, Mel, paranoia can destroy ya! And I sure wouldn't want to become a hoarder because of being too worried about it

MelJ, Thank you for sharing your story. And yes to me the fact that you're a long time forum regular does matter when I read the post. That's one reason I even opened this thread.

NYCFS makes a career of insults and slams. Never did understand why.

"NYCFS makes a career of insults and slams. Never did understand why."

Anyone with half a brain can read there were no "insults and slams." So maybe that's why you don't understand. I wrote in general terms about internet usage, without directing my comments to anyone specific. I cannot control people who wish to take what is written personally, and nor do I wish to control people, or tell them what they must do.

oh please you have been rude for years. Witness jsut now how you manage to get in the "anyone wiht half a brain"... if that's not an insult/slam I don't know what is.

"oh please you have been rude for years.."

Pot calling the kettle black.

MelJ, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. I understand that some people like to pretend they will never be a victim, but most of us know even the most savvy traveler can encounter these scams. After all, these thieves are professionals and skilled at coming up with new ways to commit crimes.

I, for one, am grateful for all the advice given on this thread. Gives me ideas and food for thought in advance of my next trip.

Wow! I appreciate you sharing this story and also the advice given here. I am heading for Paris Sept 1st, so this is very timely.

It is always good to warn people to be careful. My own card allows bigger debits abroad than at home, which makes sense and which is also an additional danger.

Card skimmers were a significant problem in France a few years back, but I haven't heard of any problems for years -- I think people are now extremely wary of any card slot that looks a bit 'weird'.

I certainly appreciate the info, Mel, particularly as I live in DC and bank at PNC. PNC is generally clueless about foreign transactions. Even though I had called them last week AND gone in person to my branch to tell them I was going to be overseas and was making purchases from SNCF in advance of leaving, their Fraud Department left a message on my VM the other day. When I called back I got routed into an automated message thingie that first asked if I had made a purchase from "an overseas railroad." I answered yes. Then the automated thingie asked if I had purchased anything from a direct marketing company in "Paris, Ireland." Options were to answer yes or no or ask for more information. I asked for more information and got the very same message - did you charge something for $6.60 to a direct marketing company in Paris, Ireland?" I had an inkling that perhaps this was the insurance I'd bought along with the SNCF tickets, but PARIS, IRELAND??? So I said no and was directed to a human who asked if I'd bought $6.60 worth of insurance. To which I replied yes, of course. But honestly!!!

Thanks, Mel. We have 2nd ATM card that only has a very small amount of money in it. I think I will add cash to it before we go and use that one. Funny, b/c it is a card I got 4 years ago when we were going to spend an extended time in LA and my reasoning for getting it was to avoid an occurrence exactly as you describe. Now I am glad I never closed it down, despite DH asking why we still have it.

Anyone who keeps ATM receipts for 22 plus years is a freakin' nut case.

"Anyone who keeps ATM receipts for 22 plus years is a freakin' nut case."

Tell that to my biographer. The value of fame and good fortune? Some of you have no clue.

I wonder if Suze will dare chastise Holly for making one of her typically rude comments. Oh, I forgot, the hypocrites only complain here when you're not a member of their club.

Some of you nasty old girls really make me laugh. I'm so happy to be back.

Actually I was going to compliment her, to say, "now THAT is an insult!" Bravo!!!

Why do people always think there is a "club" anytime more than one person disagrees with them?

Mel is this the address for the Venice ATM?

VE SAN MARCO
Calle Larga San Marco, San Marco 383
Venezia VE 30124

Calle Largo San Marco is one block north of Piazza San Marco, closer to the Basilica.

"Why do people always think there is a "club" anytime more than one person disagrees with them?"

The club is called "HYPOCRITE," dear. Good luck practicing what you selectively preach.

Thanks, suze! Do you remember the Pompous Ass Club here? I never made it into that one, either.

But I know who the President is, that's for sure.

NYC, for the third time, I don't know what bank it was! Amazed that you went to the trouble to look up banks in Venice. If and when I pull my receipt I'll let you know if you were right (for whatever reason that's important to you). In the meantime, I'll let the fraud department deal with the Venice bank since they have my withdrawal information.

Today, a friend sent me an inspirational email, which included the following advice on ways to lower your stress level:

28. Be kind to unkind people (they probably need it the most).
29. Sit on your ego.
30 Talk less; listen more.
31. Slow down.
32. Remind yourself that you are not the general manager of the universe.

Now, take a deep breath, girls......

"Amazed that you went to the trouble to look up banks in Venice."

Are you kidding? I find ATM fraud extremely egregious. Why on earth would you find that amazing? Are we not here to help other travelers? I feel your pain, dear, but if other travelers to Venice are to benefit from your experience, they need to be armed with more information.

The most important piece of information that you could offer in this thread is the location of the ATM in Venice. Am I the only one who sees this?

Professional thieves don't pick just any old ATM. They pick ATMs where they are less likely to get caught. And it seems to me, Calle Larga San Marco is a perfect street for an ATM scam.

If your intention was to help other travelers, then revealing the precise location of the ATM is the best way to warn others to stay clear of that ATM. It also is a warning to the building/business that houses the ATM. The address may not be an actual bank. It's listed as a "Financial Institution."

I think someone let a rabid pitbull loose!

Oh come now, gh21. Suze and holly aren't that bad.

The thieves have probably moved that scanner to a different ATM by now. It would be useless to them to leave it at the original bank/ATM, once the bank knows of the problem. They probably move it about every 2-3 days, so they get enough money from one and then move on to the next.

Our bank does have a ATM card that you can put money into from a checking account, but is not connected to it. We just put enough on the card to see us through the trip.

joto, you're absolutely right about the scammers moving on. To focus on this particular bank would be like reporting that one was pickpocketed on the #23 bus in Transylvania. The pickpockets have most likely moved on to the #30.

May I ask what bank you use? That card sounds like a great alternative.

It's Wells Fargo. A similar type of card should be available at most banks. If it's not, you could open another checking account, but only have enough money in it to stop it closing, put in enough money for a trip, and if it does get scammed, it wouldn't be your main checking account that got hit.

Mel, how convenient that you'd like to move on. So be it.

Clearly, you and joto know little about thieves and scam artists.

It's a well known fact, if your home has been burglarized, your six times more likely to be revisited by the same burglar. The figure is much greater if the pickings are good and plentiful. One can only imagine the pickings in Venice, with all those millions of international travelers.

So much for "moving on." Nice work, Mel.

NYC: I never said I was "moving on," but that's a great idea. you have managed to muddle a thread that was meant to be helpful (and I have been assured by many has been) with your inane need to be the center of attention.

You are really not a nice person. You picked on a thread about something lousy that happened to me on vacation and used it to make yourself sound superior (though, in actuality, you only came across as weirdly obsessive). I'm happy that you have--in your words-- a biographer, fame and good fortune. Go forth and do something good with all that.

You've become tiresome. Now scoot.

"your inane need to be the center of attention...now scoot"

That's funny. I don't recall being the OP who titled a thread, "Bank Account Cleaned Out While in Italy," here on Fodor's. Looks like someone else has a talent and maybe a need for attracting attention.

Then you begin by saying, "there is nothing I'm aware of that we could have done to prevent this from happening." Well, I disagree. There is plenty you could have done, and I hope other readers will learn after they read this thread.

You can tell me to "scoot" all you want. I'm sure such talk makes you feel more manly. But as far as I'm concerned, you're not telling the whole truth, probably because you don't want to take responsibility for what you didn't do.

Time to move on.

I don't usually get into fights, but, MelJ, I like you better than NYCFS.

To focus on this particular bank would be like reporting that one was pickpocketed on the #23 bus in Transylvania. The pickpockets have most likely moved on to the #30.

Not quite. Some Paris métro lines are notorious for pickpocketing because they are more heavily used by tourists.

MelJ--
Thank you for sharing your experience so clearly. Great job!

Greg, Michael, joto, xyz--Thanks for explaining how this scanner works and for providing steps all tourists might use to prevent it.

As to some of the points raised...

1. My regular bank's personnel have no clue as to how ATMs operate overseas. I've stopped notifying them because 1) they either tell me that it doesn't matter OR b) they tell me that my plain old ATM card (not a debit card) won't work in Europe(!), even though I'd been using it just fine since 1998. I also am amazed that I have this strict $350 withdrawal limit at home, and when I've been overseas, I've found I can withdraw $1,000 on this puppy.

Therefore, thanks to some tips on this forum, I now primarily use a...

2. Schwab debit card for which I can reduce purchases to a penny. I fund this account before we leave. Schwab really wants you to let them know your plans about a week before you leave, so I think the email alert idea will sit very well with them.

3. How true that we can't let thieves steal our lives along with our possessions. Otherwise, we'd all just stay home.

MelJ,

Ignore NYCfoodsnob, he's worthless. I can't be bothered reading anything he posts.

Mel, thank you for your post. You have given me a lot to think about for my future travels. I am sorry you had such a terrible experience but am glad you were able to still enjoy a wonderful trip.

I just came back from Italy. My husband and I travel a lot. Each time, I always asked myself...atm or cash and always end up bringing cash and never use atm. I know, I know...a lot would say I am crazy for bringing so much cash. But its precisely for incidents like this that I always opted for just bringing cash because the cash money I would loose, IF I loose them, will be much more less than having someone cleaning out my account. To think of the stress and headache to go through if something like this happens...yikes. I know I can have a separate travel account tied with an atm..etc etc...but its not something I want to maintain.

i think its a cultural thing also. I was telling my husband how when my family used to travel, my parents would have thousands of dollars in cash for shopping etc etc...I still see it today whenever I do my shopping in high end shops. Of course here, I use my credit card. But I see asians, middle easterns still paying in cash for purhcases worth in thousands. why, I just saw this asian lady paid in cash for something worth over 5k euros.

So far, in my years of traveling with my parents and now, I have never lost any cash...knock on wood! Of course, with bringing thousands in cash, comes with responsibility and common sense and so far, they have served me well.

Thank you Mel for highlighting what happened am really sorry this rotten thing happened to you on your holiday. I am always cautious but your post has definitely served as a reminder to me and to all to be extra cautious.

PS Steph, I am like you I use cash or my credit card. I never use my bank card abroad ( or online) for that matter.

Just out of curiousity:
Is it not common to have a insurance against debit card fraud as part of your regular liability insurance?
My policy does not cover a fortune but at least up to € 5,000 for my checking account for that time until I notice the fraud and notify my bank.

And it is very common that you can withdraw the maximum of € 500 or 1,000 from an ATM here even though your debit card may have a $300 minimum back home in the US.
ATMs usually don't fully hook-up with your home bank's network but only to intermediary networks which do only a rudimentary background check, i.e. Card stolen/ not stolen, cancelled/ not cancelled, out of country usage blocked/ not blocked.

cowboy1968....US law offers some very good protections for credit card problems of fraud which basically limits one's liability to $50 and 999% of the banks don't even bother with the $50. Although not in the law, to try to wean people off credit cards and to use their deb it cards, most banks provide the same protection for fraud namely they cover the losses. The OP did get his money back with a bit of a hassle but ultimately lost nothing except perhaps a few grey hairs from the stress. The laws are on the books, at least in the United States, and rarely is anything lost by consumers to frud. As a matter of fact, one of the arguments from some in the US against chip and pin cards is, as somebody here noted, the liability might well switch to cardholder. I have read some cases in the UK where terminals have been booby trapped, and chip and pin cards counterfeited and at first the banks refused to cover the losses claiming it was negligence on the part of the cardholder. But that's for another story.

StephCA...when you say you bring cash, is it US cash or euro? If it's US cash then you have the hassle of gong to the bank to exchange it...if it's euro you go to your bank and exchange it. Leaving aside the losses incurred by the large service charges and fees for currency exchange, that is still a bit of a hassle, isn't it? Shold the cash be lost or stolen or whatever, it is lost and gone forever. As I just said, as traumatic as this experience was, the OP and his friend eventually got all their money back. And quite franklyu,, millions and millions of atm transactins are made daily. How often does this happen? You're welcome to your opinion and no I don't think you're crazy but to me, it's far less of a hassle to use credit cards wherever they are taken for as little as they are taken for (undersanding full well that outside the UK, credit cards are not as popular and yo might run into problem with such asinine policies as minimum purchases required or the growing problem of having an antiquated American credit card) and supplement it with some small cash withdrawals for those times you can't use a credit card.

As far as the asians and such for large purchases, might it not have something to do with customs regulations in their home country and not creating a paper trail for the authorities to impose heavy fines for failuyre to report. Also some foreign credit cards are restricted for use outside their country of origin. (I don't know if this is still true but years ago, for example, many if not most Mexican credit cards could not be used outside Mexico and it said so in the thick booklet merchants got weekly which they used to have to check before credit card purchases, remember those days).

And what do you do at home. Do you use direct deposit of your paychecks? Are you restricted, then if you don't to the times banks are open? If you use directdeposit, how do you get whatever cash you might need? Again do you go to the bank or do you use an ATM. This sort of thing is just as unlikely to happen down the street from you at a corner ATM. And as to maintaining a special travelling ccount, what's to maintain? I keep $1.01 in the account at all times (no minimum balance required)...two days before I leave I use the bill paying part of my main checking account to transfer moneyu into the account (perhaps $100)...I use the free debit card of tht bank to withdraw perhaps €50 or whatever (I just can't conceive of spending more than that in cash. I find it hard to believe that any store with prices hjigher than that doesn't take credit cards). If necessary, I can go online and transfer more money in (it is a good idea to check your bank balances daily if possible to make sure everything is okay...that was how I discovered an authorizatin had been made on mny credit card for €2,000 when the number was compromised about 10 years ago and had not been notified by the bank and yes I know hackers can get into computers but it's the cost of dong business and it's rare) and when I get home, I transfer whtever is left in the travel account back to my main account maintaining the balance of $1.01 (oh the interest I am losing)...hardly much of a bother.

But then again, you could always do what I did the first time I visited Europe many moons ago. Go out and get travelers cheques. Remember them?

Like I said, you're quite welcomer to do things the way you want but I think if you sit down and work it out, there's far less hassle using ATM's and credit cards than there is using cash except when absolutely necessary.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

BTW nycfoodsnob....woujldn't it make more sense in the 21st century to sit down one day and scan all those atm slips into your computer? this way as the ink dries and they become unble to read, yu can always easily access them.

Now I have to admit, I have all my credit card statements for the past 20 years.....on my computer. There was a time I had to scan them into the computer ut today you go to the website of the credit card company and request a PDF copy of the statement and simply save it to the computer (sometimes I have to use software to print their pdf copy to pdf software and then save from the pdf software but no big deal! You probably also have all the charge slips of every credit card purchase you have made since whenever, right?

Oh well, I used to keep them too but times change!

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

"BTW nycfoodsnob....woujldn't it make more sense in the 21st century to sit down one day and scan all those atm slips into your computer?"

In Venice, my favorite bank, far away from Piazza San Marco, dispensed $1,000 worth of cash per day. Travelers who research, or visit often, know to avoid banks and/or ATMs near Piazza San Marco.

I don't have enough ATM receipts to justify worthless minutes at the scanner. Furthermore, you can't scan paper on a Heidelberg.

I write notes on the ATM receipts, in pen. The ink is fine. But thank you for the suggestion.

In a recent TV feature, our equivalent of your FBI showed an assortment of current skimming devices and similar technology used in recent scams.
As I have no way in proving the validity of the statements, I just try to recite them without any evaluation.

Modern day high end devices are not detectable. Period.
You do have a chance with minor league thugs who use old technology, but if a decently equipped gang targets one ATM you cannot spot anything regardless how much stare around.

First example was a keyboard identical to the one in the ATM. The original keyboard got replaced and looked 100% identical as it was 100% identical.

Second example was a "camera" hidden in the side panel, i.e. that part which encloses the keyboard. The hole for the cam was not to spot for the eye. We are talking about the diameter of less than the smallest pinhead you know. So even if someone covered the keyboard with his hand, the cam would still get it from the side.

Both examples work in combination with old school purse snatching. Good pickpockets take the wallet, take only the debit card out, and put the wallet back into the victims coat or bag. Unbelievable unless you see it on cam.

The devices which read the card were said to be a bit on the decline due to a new system that our banks use. It makes the card "jitter", go back and forth rapidly many times until it gets finally inside the machine. Same when it goes out. That is said to keep any devices attached to the slot from being able to read it.
But that scheme is still in use, so the most idenfifiable piece could be anything that is attached to the slot.
But again, the sample skimming device they showed would not raise any suspicion. Not cheap plastic boxes but stuff that looked as if it has to be part of an ATM.

Tourists were said to be a prime target, more than locals (in contrast of what I had given as an odd example from Ireland) as their habits differ: Tourists pay with CC, and get cash occasionally cash with DC. What they don't do (or can't do) is PAY at many locations with their debit card. Locals do that much more often so either theft or fraud are potentially detected sooner. While it will take maybe another week for the tourist until he uses an ATM again and finds his DC stolen or compromised.

But, if are you insured against any case of CC or DC fraud, I don't see a lot of drama. Except for a bunch or phone calls and inconvenient paper work.

....which is why my friend it just doesn't pay to wrap your whole way of doing things against the possibility of somebody stealing a debit, ATM, credit card number. Of course there is a degree of inconvenience. It is for that reason that now at home when it comes time to pay my bill at a restaurant, I insist that I accompany the waiter to the place where the credit card machine is and watch every move of the cashier. But to me, it's no b ig deal as I'm at the restaurant anyway. But when I read willy advice like don't use your credit cards for small purchases because the more you use your credit card, the greater the chance of fraud, well that makes my blood sort of boil. Using an ATM to get cash is the preferred way of travel by most in the 21st century and yes I take whatever precautions I can and do look closely at the ATM's but I agree with you, these devices have become so small and hard to detect that it is almost impossible to pcompletely wipe out fraud. But my attitude is still, if it happens, it happens. c'est la vie. And as I noted, as Americans, we are pretty much protected by federal law in almost all instances.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

Well this is great info and I had seen a news story on skimmers at ATM and forgotten all about it! Will pay closer attention on our upcoming trip. Thanks for the warning!

Thank you so much, Mel, for telling us your story. We're heading to Venice soon, and I will be very cautious. Appreciate all the information.

>>>So far, in my years of traveling with my parents and now, I have never lost any cash..<<<

Of course you are losing cash. Every time you exchange for the lousy rate.

I haven't read every post so apologies if this has been said. This is a good head's up for me, about to leave on a long trip. My debit card works with my checking account only, not my savings account. So I now plan to move the bulk of my funds to the savings account and move them to checking as I need them.

This thread has made me think about my ATM card so I called my credit union this morning to ask about the daily transaction limit and liability. Had a wonderful chat and learned that the CU has reduced the daily limit which I am grateful for since it used to be $5K per day and customers could not have a lower limit. The limit is much less now. My liability is $50.

Someone mentioned being contacted by email while traveling and I wasn't worried about that since I know my CU has my email on file. But I talked about that anyway and I'm glad I did. If my card is compromised, my CU calls Visa fraud department (because I have a Visa ATM card). Well they may or may not have my email address or their policy may not be to contact via email. I asked if I could include my email on my record when I call to notify the CU that I'll be traveling and they said they would note it.

This makes me feel a lot better so Mel, I'm sorry you have had ATM problems but your post has helped me and probably many other people! Thanks for posting.

Thank you to the wonderful readers who found this thread helpful. I'd like to say that makes the hassle we went through worth it, but that wouldn't be true But it reinforces the fact that this is a place to HELP each other and provides an opportunity for negative experiences to have value. That's a good feeling.

And, boy, have I learned a lot about how to handle future transactions, so thank you almost all

Maybe I am naive, but I was under the impression that you could only withdraw money from your CHECKING ACCOUNT with your ATM card.

I could swear I had this conversation with someone at my credit union years ago because I had to switch money from my money market account over to my checking account for a trip abroad. I planned on using my ATM-debit card.

I think I was told that you have to SIGN--your signature--the transaction in order to take money out of savings or money market account. You can't sign if you use an ATM-debit card at a machine.

Thin

Thin, hopefully, someone can clear that up--although it appears that every bank handles these things differently. In my case, it was a debit card that could only be used to withdraw from ATMs and was tied only to our checking. Why I need to change this for future trips is because I leave a decent amount in the checking account to pay bills online while I'm away. At the very least, keeping only small amounts in the checking and moving funds over online as needed is the prudent way to go.

I think the issue with checking/savings accounts is that ATM machines in Europe don't offer you a choice of which to withdraw from. US ATM machines all seem to have that option. So in Europe the default is always, IME, your primary checking account. At one point I had two checking accounts at the same bank and arranged to have my ATM card tied to both of them so that, in the event funds ran out in the primary account, the default would be the backup checking account. But I'm quite sure you can't get funds from your savings account at a European ATM. You can ask your bank, though (but since it's PNC, don't expect anyone to actually know the correct answer).

Every ATM or debit card has a primary account attached to it. It can be a savings account. It is usually a checking account. Therefore if your bank issues an ATM or debit card whose primary account is a savings account, it will work in an European ATM. You will not be given your choice.

St. Cirq: Good point about the lack of choice at European ATMs. Hadn't even noticed that, but you're right.

And you're right about PNC

Xyz123...I always bring both currency. The cash amount we bring depends on how long we are traveling for. I know its hard to really estimate the amount but my motto is, always bring more than less. For example, on a 3 week Italy tour, I brought 3k euros and 2k US dollars. In the end, we have about 200 euro left and untouch US dollars.The rest of our trip expenses were charged to our credit card, Amex. If a merchant does not accept amex, then its visa. We used cc anywhere it is accepted. Obviously, we pay cash on 2 coke light that is 4 euros but I bought some grocery stuff at Carrefour express for 8.12 euro and charged that to my amex, no problem. We carry american issued credit card and never had any problem at all.

Sure, getting my euros at home will incur me some expenses with the exchange rate but, this is currency. It fluctuates every second. There is no agency nor institution in the world that will allow a person to exchange any currency with no strings attach. Even those atm withdrawals have exchange rate differences. I bet those atm exchange rate has a 4 to 6 cents on a dollar foreign currency rate. One would feel its not a lot on a 200 euro withdrawal but the point is, there is still "strings attached" may not be fees or commission but its on the exchange rate. Foreign currency has 3 ways to charge either on fees, comission or rate. Thats how they make their money. My bank does not charge me with fees or comission but they get me on the rate which is about 6 cents on a dollar. But hey, that is the business of currency.

As for Asians and Middle eastern using cash on large purchases, home country customs regulations and paper trail are not the issue because I think it is hard not to declare a huge Lalique vase or 3 brand new Chanel bags. I think it is just the way people traveled and where they are going. I have friends on these both side of the world and when we talk, no one uses atms..its either cash or credit card. Using ATM is the 21st century way of using cash on travels but probably, it is still the old way for them or me.

At home, everything is 21st century as in direct deposit, cc, online banking etc etc. I hardly use cash at home since I charge everything and pay it off every month. Even those $3 Starbucks coffee are put in amex for hilton points. Hence, we never pay for any hotels for the past 15 years.

Sorry, I have never use travelers check. Does anyone even use those? As for the thick merchant booklet in reference to cc usage you were talking about..sorry again. I have never seen those and the oldest I know of cc usage processing was when they have that thing where they insert paper and swipe it. Thats the oldest I know.

kyBourbon...what I meant by " never lost cash...." is someone physically stealing my wallet inside my purse, or stealing my purse or snatching the cash from my hand (that can happen)or slashing my purse to grab my wallet or hotel vault or something. Thats what I meant by losing cash.

Any time foreign currency is involved, one would always loose on the exchange rate, comission or fees...it comes with the territory of traveling and foreign currency exchanges because a person would need to buy the currency of the country you are visiting to be able to spend. It is what it is. What I do is if not minimising my loses in exchange rate, at least I dont sucked into paying so much on the rate, by keeping myself informed with the day's currency trading rate, and check that against that days' bank foreign currency rate. Keep it simple by taking the euro.I dont bother going to the local bank of the country to exchange but just go to regular foreign exhanges. If the rate is close to the bank rate which is normally they do, and has no comission or fees, then I exchange that day. I am talking specific day and do that exchange that same day because tomorrow, the rate is another whole new ball game. Its not even a hassle..It takes me 1 min to check on the day's rate in my ipad.

Hi...I was not being critical and I respect you in doing what you feel you have to do! There is, though, a misconception.

For the most part, the ATM networks are controlled by Mastercard (cirrus) or visa (plus). Both have specific regulations regarding currency conversions. Basically they use what is known as the interbank rate. That is the rate established by the banks in exchanging millions of whatever currency at a time and is subject to market conditons. Y0u can always get the interbank rate by going to either xe.com or oanda.com. To this they charge 1%. So if the interbank rate on the US$ and UK£ is $1.60 to £1, and you pull out £20 from an ATM, the conversion by visa or mc will change that to $32.32 ($32 is the converted rate, 32¢ is the 1%)...the debit goes through their system and reaches your bank. At that point, the banks can add additional fees if they so desire (many add an additional 2% making a total of 3%, leave it as it is or even eat the 1%...they may add additional fees, especially when the withdraswal is with a credit card and not an ATM or debit card. Different banks have different policies for these additional fees and you have to check with your bank.

You never get near the interbank rate when exchanging cash. The ony question is just how severe a hit they want to put on you. When the £ is $1.60, it would probably cost you $12.75 for each £ to exchange cash and to that some currency exchanges add further fees whether a flat fee or a %/ So if you will pay 15¢ on each £...so if you end up with £1000, you will have spent an extra $150 on the transacvton which you might or might not consider significant. You will always do much better with plastic whether for getting cash from an ATM or simply charging merchandise.

Butr the other thing I don't get, and please this is not meant to criticize you and is made in all due respect to the way you think is best for you, is if you use a credit card for most purchases how in a two week trip you can run through $1,000 or the equivalent thereof. I assume you cdharge your hotels. I assume you charge most meals. I assume if you buy something valuable you charge it as you said (you should always charge merchandise as if it is damaged or in shipping something happens, you have some leverage through the credit card company). I just can't conceive of having to spend that much cash even though I know manyh countries such as Italy might not be as liberal in the use of credit cards as are the USA and the UK.

Just as a further suggestion, ;unless your Amex card gives you great great rewards, I wouldn't use Amex outside the USA as all transactions are subject to a 2.7% foreign transaction fee i.e. 2.7% above the interbank rate we mentioned above. And I do't know which bank issued your visa card but it might tack on as much as a 3% foreign transaction fee. There are more and more credit cards being issued which don't charge a foreign transaction fee and even eat the 1% fee visa/mc apply to the interbank rate on purchases.

For those who haven't read some of my other posts, in the last several weeks, Bank of America has come out with a new credit card, their travel rewards card. It has no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee (including eating the 1% visa fee) and has an emv chip! Just having it for the emv chip might be wothwhile in case you run into mercdhants who don't want to take the antiquated American credit cards.

Again, none of this is meant to be critical of what you do. I'm just trying to be informative.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

oops typo. When the interbank rate is $1.60 for £1, the cash rate will probably be $1.75 fpr £1 not $12.75 as I mistakenly typed. Incidentally the way the currency exchanges make money is the spread between the sell rate (sell £1 for $1.75 and the buy rate (in this case you would probably find the buy rate to be $1.45 for £1...a Brit coming to the USA who wishes to buy $ before leaving for £20 would only get $29 with additional fees deducted. That spread is how banks make money. Sorry for the typo.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

I doubt you can use a checking account card for cash withdrawls in Europe unless that card sports a Maestro, Cirrus or Plus logo. Or whatever there may exist in addition.
By default, one card here is linked to one account. If you want to access your checking account you use the debit card, if you have two checking accounts, you have two debit cards.
if you want to withdraw from credit you use the credit card.
I would not even know how things can work with a savings account because I did not have one for 15 years or more.

Regarding the cards now being introduced by US banks with a chip, unless there's one which I haven't heard about (quite possible) the US issued cards are chip & signature (retaining the magnetic strip), not chip & pin so are not full-fledged replacements for our swipe & signature (magnetic strip only) cards . It seems a very silly halfway measure to me. European merchants and consumers seem to cope with chip & pin just fine, have been coping for some time now. So why not here?

Several years ago in preparation for a trip to Rome, I opened a specific savings account for ATM use. The bank teller assured all would be well.

Learned the hard way that European ATMs expect a checking account and will not recognize a savings account for ATM withdrawals. (Luckily, my companion had money.)

Perhaps this was Rome-specific, or has since changed, but not worth the risk to me.

European merchants and consumers seem to cope with chip & pin just fine, have been coping for some time now. So why not here?

What about the rest of the world? Might this chip desire be Eurocentric?

Thank you all for this discussion. It has caused me to rethink how much cash we will take and how we will handle our ATM transactions. I still don't understand why European banks would not want to honour an ATM withdrawal on a savings account?

Yikes, always the kind of thing no one wants to happen! One year when traveling with friends to Croatia one of the fellows was unable to access his account no matter what he did. He had notified the bank he would be traveling and where to but that didn't help him. What helped him were his friends and the ability to use a credit card. His footnote to that trip is he fired his bank as soon as he got back. The only story they had for him was that Croatia was some 3rd world kind of destination and that was the problem.......he didn't buy that excuse. Always pays to have several back-up plans if you are traveling alone. Glad you were able to have a good time.

I wouldn't call the chip eurocentric. I paid everywhere in Canada with my chip and pin credit card.
And AFAIK, Canada still seems to be part of North America

mmeperdue...We know of 3 banks that issue chip and pin credit cards....lun fcu open only to employees of the UN, Andrews FCU and State Dept fCU which technically have employment restrictions but both allow you to join some organization for free to open an account. The Andrews card is interesting. It basically operates as a chip and signature card but it is claimed and has been verified to some degree that when necessary it will be chip and pin. I haven't read anything about the State Dept FCU chip and pin card.

Right now there are mixed reports of how valuable the chip and signature cards are as compared to magnetic strip. Most report the chip and signature cards do not work in the unmanned or unwomanned kiosks. However, I used the Andrews card in the Paris metro this past June when it didn't take my magnetic strip card. It did not ask for my pin, BTW.

At least it's a start!

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

Canada has indeed converted to chip and pin. Some have reported trouble using the US non chip cards at some Canadian merchants but the chip and signature cards do work there apparently.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

It did not ask for my pin, BTW

So if you lost the card, someone else could use it? How is that an improvement on security?

.....good question but that's always an issue with US credit cards even without chips, isn't it. I mean in theory, they're supposed to compare signatures although in the USA more and more merchants for small purchases either don't require signatures or don't bother checking after you swipe the card. Iat seems the chips were introduced as a gimmick due to complaints that more and more merchants are not accepting the magnetic strip cards but for some reason, they don't want to go all the way.

What has been explained to me is the question of liability. It is claimed, and I've read it, that with chip and pin, the onus for fraudulent transactions is put on the customer and some customers reported difficulties when somehow some pos terminals were compromised and despite chip and pin, fraudulent transactions were made. At first the banks tried to hold the customers responsible but as the magnitude of the scam became apparent, relented.

To me, if I can get a chip card with no annual fee and no foreign transaction fee, it's worth having just in case.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

This is what I asked two friends who have spent their working lives with computer programming at a fairly high level:

Is the chip & pin system inherently more secure than the magnetic strip system on credit, ATM and debit cards?

"They're both horribly insecure. The mag stripe can probably be copied by a less sophisticated attacker, but it requires physical access to the card. Chip & pin card can be cloned at some distance (a couple feet at least - so by the stranger next to you on the subway - possibly across a room or farther)."

I'm waiting for the second response.

Mel, I appreciate you taking the time to post your experience in Venice. It's a reminder to me to be vigilant while using the ATM.

We will be arriving in Venice after a flight from the US and upon arrival must withdraw from an ATM enough euros to pay for our apartment.

After reading about your experience in Venice, I will be more aware to what a skimmer looks like. I've already checked out the FBI website on the topic and will make sure I'm familiar with the latest machinations intending to steal my hard earned money from me

I like your positive attitude that didn't let a negative experience detract from your travels, Deborah

I paid everywhere in Canada with my chip and pin credit card.

But if only Canada had the chip/pin system, there would be little discussion on changing the mag stripe system used in the U.S.

BTW, I am only asking. I do not know what is prevalent in Latin America, Asia, Africa or Australia/New Zealand.

On the subject of keeping ATM receipts for 22 years: A friend of mine kept in boxes in his cellar every check he ever wrote from number 1 to 7014. He died at the age or 77 and the family threw them away. I believe there was one occasion where he had to retrieve a check to prove he paid a bill.

Chip & pin card can be cloned at some distance (a couple feet at least - so by the stranger next to you on the subway - possibly across a room or farther)."

That why there are these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005PMK652/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

And wallets that have the same technology. I am hoping it works as purported.

DebitNM - How will we know? We'll only know if they don't work.

Giving the bank your email address is a great suggestion.
I also had a recent experience with PNC but it involved an inability to access funds while visiting Central America. I had notified the bank beforehand, but despite multiple international calls, could not access the money with my card. We were with family and fortunately they could lend us cash. The lesson I learned was to have my money in more than one bank and to carry more cash.

I am guessing that the manufacturers have tested them as to their ability to actually block the remote readers. Whether a specific one works or fails, as you said, only the failures will be known - the ones that are indeed blocked, will never be known.

I will soon be trying the envelopes out on our Andrews FCU Credit Cards with a chip and pin and also got one for DH's passport which also has a chip in it.

SO Sorry this happened and thanks for sharing your experience. Now I don't feel so silly that I call our home number every night we are traveling (mostly if we're out of the country) just to double check ....

xyz123...thanks for the atm information and no, I don't think you were critical at all. Like you said, we are here in this forum for information purposes.

It all boils down to comfort level. Based on your information, I probably pay additional 2% to 3% converting cash (US Dollar to Euro)compared to getting the money through atm as I go along on our trips, but, for me personally, I would prefer the peace of mind knowing I have the money and not worry about looking for bank atms.

As fr your question of how I can go through 1000 cash a week if everything else is charged to cc....we are a family of 3 traveling. I can say in a week, our personal cash expenses, at least, is somewhere around 200 euros...buy little things here and there, taxis, entrance fees that we chose to pay cash instead of cc...it adds up. Trust me, every night, I check my wallet against expenses..I did not get short change nor dropped any cash. Its all accounted for. meals, hotels, trains are all in cc. The bulk of our cash usage is always towards the end of our trip which is where we do our shopping on high-end items. I do my high-end european brand shopping when I am in either Paris or Rome because I do save a lot even with the duty paid at the customs. Depending on what item...I would opt to use our leftover cash and the rest cc...

Also, we use our amex more than visa because we get hilton points which means, honestly, for the past 15 years, we have not paid for any hotel rooms anywhere in the world that we go to that has hilton. Like in 2010, for all our hotel stays in Paris and Italy...we saved in the neighborhood of 4,000 euros in the hotels we stayed at for 22 days. On this trip, we did not pay anything except for the 3 euros city tax per person per day for 18 days. So, even with the 2.7% foreign transaction fee, its still worthwhile for us to use our amex. As for the money lost on the exchange rate, we gain it from not paying our hotel rooms and the money I saved for buying items that I am sure will buy anyway when I am in Italy or Paris.

So, you win some, you lose some...name of the game.

<<not worry about looking for bank atms.>>

Not criticizing your approach, either (though personally, I think traveling with large amounts of cash is rather close to insanely risky), but you can hardly walk 20 feet anywhere in Europe except the boonies without finding an ATM machine.

Re. Security of chip and pin

I am almost sure that the aforementioned "experts" who say that chips can be cloned from several feet distance mean RFID / contactless / NFID chips as they are in new passports, for example. Or that you may have in your company's keycard and can be waved near a reader to establish contact.

The chips found in today's credit and debit cards, at least over here, are the old school chips that need a mechanic contact with a chip reader.
They are a different kind of chip that cannot be read from a distance. Hence it is nonsense to put them in a protective wallet.

My concern with cash is not the lesser exchange rate you'd get, it's walking around with your entire vacation budget in cash on your person. Just doesn't seem all that safe or wise to me.

I am writing this mea culpa because it's the right thing to do. I happened upon MelJ's recent trip report and discovered she is not a man. I don't know why (I have no psychic talent), but I was convinced in this thread that MelJ was male. My bad.

xyz123 writes, "when I read willy advice like don't use your credit cards for small purchases because the more you use your credit card, the greater the chance of fraud, well that makes my blood sort of boil." Well, when it comes to financial matters, and a man writes, "there is nothing I'm aware of that we could have done to prevent this from happening," I feel a similar sting.

I tend to take a woman's side when it comes to matters of finance. My father put my mother in charge of finances, and when things went wrong, she bore the brunt. Also, too many of the wealthy men I've encountered in my life (and the number is high) leave no room to share their rung with a woman to stand as equal.

So MelJ, I apologize for the tone my posts took in this thread.

I'm going to be in Venice for the film festival soon. I'll be in Italy for several weeks. I'm sure I will find myself on the streets around San Marco, and you can be sure I'll be taking a closer look at the ATMs there as a result of this thread.

I didn't give one thought to gender in this discussion. I always try to write he or she in most of my postings and usually will use expressions like unmanned or unwomanned kiosks for that reason. If one some of the postings I didn't do that, I apologize.

I don't see what gender has to do with any of this in any event. Both men and women use ATM's. Both men and women use credit cards. But maybe I'm missing something and would welcome being educated by the difference in feelings about finances between males and females of the species.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

xyz123, I used your quote for the "blood boil" reference only. The gender mistake is mine, not yours. I can't say what misled me. I do know a Mel and he's a guy. It could be as simple as that.

For xyz123's "unmanned or unwomanned kiosks..."

I respectfully suggest "unstaffed."

Suze....we dont walk around with our entire cash with us, just like we dont carry our passport with us. My husband and I each have 200 cash and 2 cc with us when we do our walking around. The rest are in the hotel vault. My parents have done the same since I was young, and I have done the same for as long as I have been traveling. So far so good.

Speaking of credit cards, I learned a tip long ago that we still follow: We have two different credit cards. The hub carries both of one and I carry both of the other. In other words, He has both his and my ABC card and I have both his and my XYZ card.

This way, if his wallet (or mine) gets stolen or lost, we still have a good card to use.

Mel, thanks so much for sharing your story. We're going back to Italy in April/May for our fourth visit and I was beginning to get complacent about the ATMS. This is a timely heads up. Thanks again.

You are very welcome, Seattle. Have a wonderful trip in that beautiful country.

MelJ: Don't be so absolutely certain it was a scanner at the bank in Italy. Even if your friend had the same problem.

I just had a problem with an Amex card which is linked to my Visa card being used, although I hadn't used the Amex card in months, maybe even over a year!

There does exist the possibility that someone has hacked into the bank data and gotten your card details. Maybe even being able to tell that you were overseas. Who knows?!

All I know is that my card was at home, locked up, while I was overseas and hadn't been used in at least a year. Yet, there were charges on it from Italy while I was just in Germany.

These criminals are VERY high tech.

And, btw, I did get a text message from the fraud division, but it only gave the last few digits w/o identifying it as my Amex-linked card. So when I got the text message, I thought it was a hoax because I didn't recognize the last few #'s and it didn't match the cards we did have with us. So, there you have it! All kinds of things can happen and you can't protect against all of them.

stephCA - How does it get into the hotel vault then? At some point you must have been walking around with the cash, right? On the plane, in the airport, in the taxi going to the hotel, etc. etc.

"After over 20 years of traveling in Europe, we were scammed for the first time last month. After arriving in Venice, the hub and another guy with us both went to a bank ATM to withdraw (an outside ATM)."

While gay marriage is legal in a few places, someone referring to a "hub" which I assume is a husband would normally signal that it is a woman speaking. I'm not sure what difference it makes if it is a woman or a man, but when someone is questioning the most tiny details in the post, it seems a rather major point was overlooked. But I'm really amused that when a poster thought it was a man -- it became a major challenge of everything being said. When we find it is a woman, that suddenly everything changed? Talk about sexist!

stephCA--I can tell you that walking around with all the cash makes me a Nervous Nelly. My daughter and I had to pull thousands from ATMs to pay for a Paris apt rental on the day we arrived last fall. That was only one or two hours of holding cash, but I was constantly fretting.

But if that doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother us.

tinydancerii--MelJ's problem was probably the scanner because the other guy with them using the same ATM at the same time had a problem.

You do have a point about being overseas with any hack. I had a similar experience about having a card that was unused for six months getting a strange charge that fraud spotted right away. If I had been out of the country, I would not have known about it. I hate having to be electronically tied when on vacation, but perhaps that's going to have to be a way of life.

Suze...of course and thats how it gets to the hotel vault. Responsibility and common sense....from the time I left my home to our hotel destination after planes, trains and taxi with lugagges and a child with me. Also, just acting like I dont have that much money with me, be casual and dont look "afraid".

Let me give you a story that just happened. On my last visa statement was a $1 charge from some firm whose name I will not mentin. I called them and they told me it was for a credit report. I said I never ordered a credit report. They asked me for my credit card number and name. Reluctantly I gave them the last 4 digits of the credit card number and my name and they claimed they couldn't find any indication of the charge.

I then called the issuer of my visa card (Bank of America). What the customer service rep figured out was the charge had been on another credit card issued by Bank of America that had been closed or lapsed years ago. With that info she called the merchant who found the charge with a different name. A person had used that credit card number to order a credit report and then a week later close the account. There had been several attempts to get asuthnorization on that old credit card number for the past several months that had been rejected. To make a long story short, the $1 charge was reversed and credited.

Te fact is credit card number are readilly available to criminals in a variety of different ways. Of course sometimes a clerk has a portable scanner at the most prestigeous of stores perhaps or via the atm scam we're discussing or just randomly putting together digits (there are alogirthms of what constiutes a valid credit card number which is why sometimes if you enter a credit card number wrong by one digit the computer immediately picks up the fact it is an invalid credit card number), data bases are hacked etc. There is nothing you can do about it, absolutely nothing. That is why, s I've said, if it should happen, you deal with it. In almost all cases while it may involver a small degree of discomfort, it can be dealt with. It's really no diffeent that every three or four years when a new credit card arrives with a new expiration date and a new ccv and you have to notify those who automatically debit your card.

The criminals are indeed one step ahead it seems. But do you want to give up the ability to sit at home and order stuff on the internet? To be able to travel without having to carry large amounts of cash?

We move on. As long as it is only credit cdard theft and not identity theft which is really a big big problem (which is why I despise having to show id when using a cfredit card and I've had some fights about this...I'm tired of fighting about this so now I show muy transportation card which has a picture but no id numbers) and can take awhile to and countless hours to undo.

T%he reality is over the years, this will happen to many of us. It's really nothing we can completely avoid so just try your best and if it happens, you deal with it but don't lose sleep about it.

I'm xyz123 and I approved this message.

"do you want to give up the ability to sit at home and order stuff on the internet"

OMG--My life is Amazon.com. Keeps me outta malls!

<Also, just acting like I dont have that much money with me, be casual and dont look "afraid".>

I'm glad you have never had a problem with your method. For me personally no way would I want to have $1000+ on my person on an overnight/international plane flight thru several airports, for starters.

I found this in my Italy archive:

From the United States Diplomatic Mission to Italy at http://italy.usembassy.gov

Security Notice: ATM Skimming Warning - July 25, 2008

American citizens should be aware that there have been a couple of recent incidences of ATM skimming in the vicinity of the US Embassy in Rome. This type of crime is increasing. All citizens should be particularly careful when using ATM machines.

Skimmers may be installed on ATM machines and they are often difficult to notice. A small device goes over the normal card reading slot and reads your card’s magnetic stripe. Skimmers can also be handheld devices that a dishonest merchant can keep in his pocket and, while charging your card for a recent purchase, for example, he can run your card through a skimmer as well.

Use these tricks to avoid getting caught in a skimming scam:

1.Use secure ATM machines – under video surveillance or inside of a bank lobby. They are less likely to be tampered with. Thieves take more risk installing skimmers where there are security cameras.

2. Cover the ATM keypad as you’re entering your PIN -- just in case there is a hidden camera around.

3. Skimming devices will stick out a few extra inches from an ATM. If something looks suspicious, find another ATM. Don't fall for a poor fitting device (or a sticker or sign that says "Swipe Here First” or “Use This Machine Only”).

4. If a machine keeps your card, call the bank immediately and report it.

5. Don’t accept “help” from anybody hanging around the ATM machine. They may say they were having trouble also and you just need to enter your PIN again.

6. Keep your eyes on your card if you have any doubts. Don't let a vendor walk off with your card -- even for a few seconds.

7. It is recommended to use an ATM inside a bank.

"...no way would I want to have $1000+ on my person..." suze

Sometimes, for a variety of reasons it must be done. For instance, I have a trip to Burma planned and will leave home soon with well over $1000 in cash with me. It's the only possibility and I'll be cautious, keep it under my clothes, and not worry as I travel for 2 months through Asia prior to arrival in Burma. I almost always carry $500 in emergency cash and this isn't really any different. More money, more caution. If one fears having cash, don't take cash. This is one of those personal decisions, either do it and don't worry or don't do it. Simple.

I understand MmePerdu, that in some unique situations it may be necessary. But this person says they do this every trip as their preferred method. And for me, actually $500 IS different than $1000+. Easy math, the loss would be double at the higher amount.

My rule of thumb is to carry as much cash overseas as I do at home.

Suze, apparently it works for them and I don't believe anyone will make a decision to carry large amounts of cash based on a stranger's habits. We do what we're personally comfortable doing which was my point. We can discuss our feelings regarding the practice but I don't believe either of our personal opinions will persuade or dissuade anyone. That's all.

hey I've got no horse in the race. But people DO read these forums hoping for wise travel advice. I think generally speaking most people would agree there are certain risks inherent in carrying around large amounts of cash when you are traveling.

"My rule of thumb is to carry as much cash overseas as I do at home."

At home usually that's about $20 tops. But actually in Europe I carry more than that!

so in all seriousness, should we go back to travelers checks?

so in all seriousness, should we go back to travelers checks?

The last time I used traveler's checks I was charged the equivalent of $5 for cashing a $20 in an Italian bank in Tivoli. I'll take my chances with an ATM.

I have a slightly different question on this discussion of carrying cash. Last time I went to Europe I did have to carry a fair amount of cash, and I put it in my money belt. When I went through the whole body scanner in SEA, it showed up on the scan, and I had to have a full body search, take off my shirt, and unbuckle the belt for examination. I was told I should have taken every thing off of my person, such as combs, handkerchiefs, and money beltsand placed them in the bin to be sent it ahead of me on the belt through the x-ray machine.

My question to the TSA agent, and to you would be, "Do you really expect me to let my cash go out of my sight in a busy airport screening situation?"

Not going to happen! Don't be silly, the money belt usually holds money and is a natural target for thieves. It could disappear in a second. It stays with me. Period. If that means a whole body search, so be it, but I am just not that trusting.

I have found encouragement from all of your problems with your US banks. My wife and I go Europe 2X/yr, and I have always thought of myself as being cautious. When we travel, I notify all our card providers of the details of our travel: dates, countries, cell phone numbers, etc.

However, last May we went to Russia, and upon checking into the hotel, went to the lobby and got some rubles from an ATM. A couple of days later, went back to the same ATM and was unable to withdraw any. After a couple of calls back to the US, I determined that the bank thought that I had returned to the US. I got this clue when, after asking why they had blocked my card that "you are in the US and someone in Russia is trying to use your card." I then asked the guy why he thought I was back in the US and he told me that was what their records said. It seems that they transposed a digit and had me going to St Petersburg one day and returning the next. I suppose that an overnight trip to Russia is normal for some folks, but not for me!

They did unblock my card, but I needed to tell them ("for security reasons" the exact details of my last three deposits.) (another hint: carry a copy of your check register) Those calls from Russia were about $200 or so.

This May, when we went to Italy, I asked all the card providers to repeat back to me what I had told them, and sure enough, this same bank had mis-recorded one of the dates but we were able to get it corrected on the spot.

However, on this same May trip, we had a layover in Dusseldorf and I absolutely did not tell them about a layover. I didn't intend to buy anything in the airport but got bored and logged on to their internet.

The next day when we got to our destination, I had a call from our house sitters telling me that the bank's fraud department had called our house about a possible fraudulent charge (again, I didn't tell them about our Dusseldorf layover -- my bad) but I wonder why they didn't call the cell phone number that I had given them? Otherwise, I would have had to wonder why they had blocked my card and would have had another series of expensive calls back to the US.

Someone above mentioned calling your voicemail back at home nightly to check. That may be the only way to prevent some of these problems.

Suze...Mmeperdu is correct. Our method of traveling is our comfort level. It is not to persuade or dissuade anyone. I was merely stating my own personal comfort level and style of traveling. It was merely stating my preference of carrying cash and credit card versus using atm and attaching supporting ways of why and how in the world I am traveling with that much cash. I can't just type here that I dont like atm and carry x amount of cash and thats it, right?

I grew up in a culture with family and friends who travel this way and the amount we carry is nothing compared to theirs. Of course there are risks carrying this amount of cash and we know that.

Next time, Suze, try going into Chanel, Cartier or Hermes store in Europe and you will see asians and middle eastern people paying in cash on something and nothing is less than 4000 euro in either of this store and thats only the beginning.

It is not for everyone to travel this way but there people who does, like this person. Is it crazy? maybe. But it works for us and for a lot of people I know. And this is not even touching the jewelry I bring and wear.

also, if everyone who are in this forum would follow everybody's "wise" travel advice, we will all go crazy. What could be wise to one might be crazy to another.

Well I guess I'm OK since there is no chance I will be going into a Chanel, Cartier or Hermes stores in Europe in this lifetime.

Wear your bling, carry your wads of cash, it sounds like you have enough money it would not be a serious issue if a $1000 bucks got lost or stolen from you. For some people this would be a big problem.

yes Suze, you should be just fine. Enjoy your next trip and peace!

pctraveler, you bring up a good point. The bank also asked us for the amount of our last deposit. Luckily, I had my iPad up and running on my account page and could answer them. Our checks are not for the exact same amount each pay day so I wouldn't have been able to answer correctly had I not had had the iPad, so, yes, jot down your previous three deposits and take that info with you if you can't connect to your account electronically.

pctraveler, I share your frustration with the bank screwing up the dates. On one long summer trip we were in the UK for a full month before moving on to Italy. On that day we flew to Italy, I needed to withdraw lots of Euros for our Rome apartment rental, but no ATMs would give us any money on either of our accounts! Fortunately the apartment owner was great and understood difficulties with ATMs and banks and told me to give her the money "before the week is over". It was Sunday and there was no one to talk to back home. When I finally got hold of our bank, we found their policy was to only enter one month of the stay in the records -- but no one told me I would need to call and add another month when that was over, so they didn't show us being in Europe any more and cut us off!

The best thing to do is to pay all your accommodation and car rental in advance and take cash with you for daily expenses. After having had my credit card eaten by the machine two times in Europe, I swore not to take any plastic with me anymore.

KodakMoment,

If you are touring by car, that can be a lot of cash just to pay for the fuel. It would be more convenient to use a bank ATM only during bank hours when there is personnel around to fix the problem.

Kodakmoment is referring to using a credit card in a machine that somehow eats the credit card. So whatever kind of machine takes a credit card into it (rather than just swiping) it would not be a bank and there are rarely personnel around to fix the problem. I don't know what kind of machines those are, but it would make more sense not to use credit cards in machines that ingest the card than refuse to take a credit card. Most of the time when you use CCs, you aren't putting it into a machine that swallows it.

It really isn't that convenient to only use bank ATMs during bank hours and that are actually attached to a bank. A lot of ATMs aren't attached to banks at all and I wonder even if they were there, could those personnel really fix some ATM outside? I do try to use one at a bank, but it's hard to follow that rule.

Kodack, that is probably always the preferred way of doing things. I've found often, though, that apartment owners/agents want a down payment (lately via PayPal) and the balance in cash on arrival. Probably to circumvent paying taxes on the income or, particularly in Paris, to hide the fact that they are renting it since the parameters on doing so have really been tightened, but there you go.

Are there ATMs that swipe your credit card instead of taking it it? I've never encountered one. By the way, I don't think it matters whether the ATM is attached to bank or not. The machine that swallowed my card was actually attached to a bank. But the bank personnel refused to give me back my card. They told me it's against the bank's rules to do so. They usually cancel them.

The new BofA machines have you do something that is like swiping, in that the card never enters the machine.

So, Snobby - why don't you make it your mission when you're in Venice next month to check out which banks have inside ATMs, and come back and list them for us. Then maybe we'll even be nice to you for a few days

MelJ, I am sorry to read this. Thanks for passing along the cautions.

Thin, I'm aware of at least one commercial bank out here (with branches throughout this state and TX) as well as a credit union permitting ATM withdrawals from savings accounts. (Not necessarily money market savings accounts, but savings accounts.)

NYCFoodSnob, I mean, Barbie, tsk, tsk.
It's a well known fact, if your home has been burglarized, your six times more likely to be revisited by the same burglar

And apparently "your" (sic) infinitely more likely to make grammatical/spelling errors!

Some of you nasty old girls really make me laugh. I'm so happy to be back.
Sweetheart, I'd love to say it's so nice to have you back, but I can't speak for the entire group. You, however, are mid-50's age-wise, so how old are the "nasty old girls" to whom you refer in your post?

BC

Dear Kathy,

Most people I know who recover from serious health issues, come out of the experience sweeter and happier because they realize that life is too short, and the time remaining is precious. Given what you've had to endure in recent years, I won't ever mind playing your punching bag. I have no personal experience with an ICU bed. And I'd like to keep it that way.

So, do whatever makes you feel good, girl. Calling me "Barbie" (whatever that is supposed to mean), or playing grammar nanny on a casual internet forum may seem petty to some, especially when your and you're is one the most common typing errors known to man, but, hey, like I said, do what makes you happy. You've been through a lot, you deserve the happy moments.

As for "how old are the 'nasty old girls,'" I guess, for some, that really depends on the calculation in vampire years. Feel free to do the math.

If one can take the OP at her word on this thread, given that she provided little precise information, then it seems the bank ATM in question might be Banco San Marco on Calle Largo San Marco.

Calle Largo San Marco is not a long street, but it is immediately behind the Basilica. I had arrangements to see my friend, Paola at Bevilacqua, which is just around the corner from Calle Largo San Marco. So I didn't have to go out of my way to see the available ATMs in this area.

The street is not the most narrow in Venice, and the Banco San Marco ATM is directly across from Hotel Al Ponte dei Sospiri and Trattoria Canonica. This little corner is almost always crowded with activity.

It's difficult to imagine any thief choosing this location to attach a scamming device, but it could be quite easy very late at night, and morning users might never notice.

I did notice a camera above the bank's facade pointing downward toward the ATM, but who knows when that was installed or whether it's on 24/7. Obviously, when I visited, there was no scammer device attached.

MelJ - Thank you very much for your post. I will now talk to our bank about making our vacation money into a special account with it's own ATM and leave our checking account ATM at home.

cd, I actually started a special "vacation" checking account with CapitalOne online. There's an added bonus of very low exchange rates and NO FEES period on ATM withdrawals either in the US or foreign countries. I just transfer funds into it before a vacation so I'm sure I'll have enough. Meanwhile when I get a few extra pennies, I transfer money into that "interest bearing" checking account during the year to help build up my vacation fund.

Thanks Patrick, I am so thankful for this post because in talking with my husband about changing our vacation savings account into a checking with it's own ATM, he told me that with our reg ATM we can also take out savings! I did not know that and want it changed. If someone scammed us they could clean us out of everything!

FWIW, instead of keeping a large pile of ATM and CC slips at hand, I take photos of each and upload them to a designated file on my computer. That way, I have immediate access to them based on the dates of my trips.

NYC, it's nice to know your apology in August for your nasty supposition was heart-felt. NOT. You are one mean person. I hope you can someday forgive whoever it was that kicked your puppy or stole your bike when you were a child because bitterness directed nastily at strangers, while easy, will age you and paranoia will destroy ya.

I opened an account at wells fargo 5years ago when we went to europe for this very reason. I will use it again this spring when we go to italy. It will have limited funds in it just for our trip.

I am sorry this happpened to you and really it can happen to anyone.

girlonthego -- I took a Wells Fargo atm/debit card along as a backup last year, but thankfully did not have to use it. It probably depends on the type of checking account you have, but for me the charges would have been a whole lot more than from my credit union account. They told me it would be 3% plus $5.00 per $100 withdrawn. Yikes! Be sure to ask them what each ATM withdrawal will cost you.

FWIW - New Cap One checking accounts are done through ING as of 7/1/12 and they do not have "no fees" benefits of the older accounts.

Thanks travlsolo! I didn't remember large fees but only used it twice in europe the first time and once the second time. I brought some money with me on both trips and the second one was a prepaid tour so I didn't need to keep getting money out.
I will probably bring some with me again. I hate to land in a country without some cash.

Bitter? Mean? Nasty? Dear, whose dog got kicked? Whose bike was stolen?

MelJ, I have no idea who the person is you are describing. You don't know me, so I suspect you may be projecting.

I write here to help other travelers. Had I been scammed by an ATM machine, anywhere, the first thing I would do is warn other travelers of the precise location of the scam ATM. That's how I define helping others.

I understand the need to rant, whine, and throw a pity party when one feels victimized. Fodor's does provide a lot of free bandwidth to do that. But how much substance does that kind of help provide?

I am truly sorry for your loss and inconvenience, and I sincerely hope you learned something on this thread that will keep future trips scam free. And once again, I am sincerely sorry that I initially mistook you for another whiney, ignorant, male traveler, who didn't do his homework before he packed his bags. Those self-absorbed, know-it-all men, who never accept what they could have done differently, bore the daylights out of me.

Wow. Someone says she isn't bitter then adds that last paragraph to her post. Sincere apology? Reality check? Not to mention the sexist slant to it all -- women can't do the same things as men?

"women can't do the same things as men?"

It's getting better, but men still rule most of the world. And many of them are idiots.

I love men. I just don't like whiney, self-pitying, ignorant men. That's not sexism, dear. That's knowing what you won't tolerate in a lover.

"And once again, I am sincerely sorry that I initially mistook you for another whiney, ignorant, male traveler, who didn't do his homework before he packed his bags. Those self-absorbed, know-it-all men, who never accept what they could have done differently, bore the daylights out of me."

Well, say what you want. But if you simply took out the word "male" in your first sentence, and also replaced it with the word "people" in your second sentence, I'm not sure what would have changed the meaning of your statement except the clarity that you were attacking men as if women can't be the same way. That's all. I had no idea why you felt it was necessary to pretend that only men act that way. But I also failed to understand you were talking about your lovers and not just people posting on a website. Well, whatever!

Patrick, no need to overthink the noise in this thread. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time.

The most important thing one can cull from this thread is to learn to protect yourself from financial scams, especially when you travel.

I accidentally left my wallet in the back seat of a taxi cab in Rome on New Year's Eve one year. I lost some cash and all my credit cards, and was due to fly to Paris on New Year's Day. I know the pain one endures when financial mishaps happen, and I now know how difficult it is to get bank help on a holiday.

Travel safely, everyone, but mostly, travel smart, which to me is the same thing.