I think that tour companies who advertise tours at a certain price should up front say that a certain percentage will be added on for service because the tour company only elicits help with the notion that they will depend on tips.

This IMO is reprehensive and an all=inclusive tour should be just that - all inclusive. Blame the tour company and not the Aussies IMO.

They are getting slave labour for doing duties they advertise as all inclusive - I'm with the folks from down under and if more folks followed their example the tour company would have to pay a decent wage for services offered.

Well I am from New Zealand and I tip depending on levels of service. If someone gives an excellent level of service I will make sure that I thank them for that by giving them good tips and good reviews. In fact, on the Globus tour of Italy I did recently, I had a prepaid gratuity and had others ( Canadian and American ) asking me what I thought was appropriate for a tip. It's true that in New Zealand and Australia no one gives tips, but that doesnt mean I wouldn't in America or Europe, or even Asia.

I was completely and totally impressed by the level of service offered by both our driver and our tour director on the Globus tour, and as I already had a prepaid gratuity, I wrote them both lovely letters of gratitude and even google translated them into Italian ( the driver didn't seem to understand more than basic English ), as well as giving them both five-star ratings on the surveys that they gave us to complete! I believe that everyone deserves acknowledgement for their skills, and if tipping is a good way to do that, then by all means, I will tip!

But the point is that tour companies do NOT pay these help and tell them up front their wages depend on tips - this is exploitation at the highest level = be up front and in the tour brochure say that a certain percentage will be added on to pay for the cost of tour guides.

Sorry latedayraveler but you approbation should IMO be directed against the tour company and not the clients who expect an all-inclusive tour. Did the tour brochure say that a certain percentage tip is expected? Seems you say it was.

That's why I always pretend I'm an Aussie. It helps me save tons of money and always within budget!

(tongue firmly in cheek there)

My son is a server in one of the top fine dining restaurants in town. We always feed the tip karma pool when it is appropriate.

Well as an Aussie, I am embarressed for those people on your tour.

Of course we tip for goodness sake, not in our own country, but when we travel if it is customary we do it.

Service people in Australia are paid a decent wage, so there is no need for mandatory tipping. That doesn't mean Aussies and Kiwis don't tip. If I travel to the USA I expect to tip, similarly with a cruise. Even in Australia if the service is excellent many people tip. The tourists on the Trafalgar tour were advised that a tip was necessary so they should have tipped. But let's face it all countries have their Bogans.

On some bulletin boards sponsored by tour companies, this debate czan get very heated. You read it all the time there. Personnel in the service industroy in Australia and New Zealand are paid a decent wage and so tipping is unnecessary. Then they don't read the fine points of the brochures and info they get before a tour and discover, in some cases it's their first trip out of their region of the world, that on a coach tour in Europe one is expected to tip the tour director and the coach driver. Then the argument veers into how much (Trafalgar used to suggest $4/day for the td and $2.50 a day for the coach driver.....then the argument was why would gratuity amounts be listed in USD for a European tour so they changed it to €4/day for the TD and €2.50/day for the coach driver...they wtill get $4 and $2.50 from me....if I have euro fine, it not they get it in USD (one of the few good uses for US $1 bank notes) or some combination thereof coming to $4/day and $2.50/day.

Of course, we all understand how much income, especially income they can hiude from the IRS, many in the service industroy say in Las Vegas can make on tipping......also I still consider 15% the proper tip at a restaurant in the USA (10% in the UK...0% - servoce omc;is om Framce ut there are many times I think the Ajussies and kiwis have it right!

Aussies do tip in their own country and overseas. I'm Australian and if we visit a restaurant in Australia, especially for an evening meal, we would tip 5-10% but certainly not all the time and not if the service is poor.

There seems to be this perception that Aussies don't tip. We do, typically in restaurants, but not all the time and only for good service. It's not expected and you won't get rude behaviour from waiters if you don't. And I like it that way.

However, we are not accustomed to tipping for other services and some of us feel uncomfortable about how to do it. I suspect if I ever make it to the USA I'll feel a bit intimidated about it.

To latedaytraveller, it may be that the people you had these conversations with didn't understand that the tour guides and drivers may not be paid a proper salary. And, as I said, Aussies sometimes feel uncomfortable with the etiquette of tipping outside of restaurants. That may make them defensive. But who really knows?

10-15% of cost of service is appropriate for good service

cheapskates worldwide though also abusers of the practice

who do not deliver quality service and expect to be tipped.

So it cuts both ways no easy answers I stick with my policy.

I also tip directly avoid "kittys" which never make it

to folks who need it.

The tour operator company should be paying their workers a decent and legal salary rather than rely on tourists to fund their lifestyle of their workers.

I agree with PalenQ.

In all fairness (or maybe unfairness), as we mentioned I've met many people from that region of the world on coach tours in Europe. For many, it's their first coach tour and they are assured by their travel agents oh the tours are great. Everything is prepaid. You just go with the flow.

Then on the first day, the tour director starts babbling about optional excursions and how wonderful they are and how nice it will be to go as a group. An extra €40 here, an extra €50 there (at least the AUD has appreciated greatly against the euro in the last few years so it isn't all that bad perhaps to them). Gee, nobody told me that. So right away, it's an extra €400 per person (of course the word optional means just that but it might be inconvenient not to take day time optionals).

Now it's the last day of the tour and the td sends the coach driver on some sort of errand and says something to the effect, I don't really care about myself (yes he or she does but how would it sound if he or she didn't phrase it that way?) but our coach driver really deserves some consideration and you can look in the literature you received for the suggested amount he deserves. Remember he packs the luggage each morning, he cleans the coach, he empties the coach each evening. He has to find a place to park the coach often in a coach park blocks away from the hotel. Just put the tip in an envelope with your name on it and I am sure he will appreciate it. (I've been on a bunch of tours and this is usually the way it's done)....

So you go to the literature and see the suggested tip is €4/day for the td and €2.50 for the coach driver. You should hear the grumbling the next day from so many who just weren't prepared for it and then the our way is better crowd takes over....as I said to me the proper tour remains what it has been i.e. $5/day US to the td and $2.50/day to the coach driver. Stick the equivalent in an envelope and that's that.

Wow, PalenQ, Irishwhistler (loved your recent TP with your grandmother) and others, thanks for your thoughtful replies.

To tell the truth, I did not read the Trafalgar brochure regarding tipping “suggestions,” but I know that gratuities were not included in the price. Guess I just taking tipping for granted. I have not cruised for some years, although I have been told that gratuities are being added in to many cruise offerings of late to which folks from everywhere often object. I can understand that.

Happy travels to all…

JFYI.. all tips are not hidden from the iRS in the USA service industry. Waiters' tips are taxed. The IRS watches carefully this industry and we as waiters/waitresses had to declare an average tip % on what the restaurant billed. We paid taxes on that if we were in the bracket. This may help explain why some waiters/waitresses get miffed and upset when they do not receive the expected tip.

I have no problem with tour companies that say in the brochure a cerrtain & service charge will be added or those that say a certain & service is expected as WE DO NOT PAY OUR STAFF - at least that is up front but to be confontred on the final day by a tour guide that does indeed depend on handouts that I object to - put it up front and even include it in the overall tour price or at least put it in BIG LETTERS that tipping is mandatory at the end of the trip.

This paying staff with tips is endemic in the tour industry, unfortunately - one wonders how the EU with all its workers protections allows this IMO scam.

Tipping protocall changes all the time. Many excellent restaurants pool all tips which are split out among the entire staff on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. The server gets a higher cut, but the rest of the staff, e.g., bar tender, bus boys, hostess, etc also get a portion as a tip. It doesn't even matter much whether you tip in cash, or as a seperate line on your card. It all goes into the pool. State and Federal And payroll taxes (SS and Medicare) are all taken out. There is much less staff turnover at these places, because everyone ends up making a living wage. Now, if only it were enough to cover health insurance costs....

I feel sad that people aren't given appropriate knowledge about tipping of bus drivers, guides, etc on so-called all inclusive vacations. It is embarrassing to think you've paid for it all, only to discover that you need to pony up an additional $100 or more per person at the end of a trip. Another reeason I prefer to travel independently.

I do believe in "when in Rome" BUT if I'm in the States and I get naff service I don't tip (no matter how much they shout), not my fault or responsibility that American employers in the service industries get away with paying their employees less than they should. Time for the US to catch up with the rest of the world methinks.

Xyz123, you explained the situation well. Perhaps these folks thought that the trip was entirely “inclusive.” Regarding the optional extras, that is another matter of concern for many. I recall my first tour with a friend around 1998 on Munich-Prague-Budapest-Vienna circuit. (Loved all of those places!)

On the first day out, the tour director passed around a sheet with optional excursions and proceeded to explain each one. My friend and I were not prepared for this so we were a bit choosey. In the end we did them all because we figured, “What the heck, we won’t be back again this way perhaps.”

I must say that they were worth the price. I recall two: a moonlit cruise on the Danube in Budapest with all those lights and fabulous buildings, and an early morning visit to the magnificent Parliament Building before regular tour hours.


Many experienced folks prepare ahead and plan another less expensive activity for those times when an optional is offered.


I must say that the older, very experienced Trafalgar tour director on our Cornwall/ Devon jaunt this summer never referred, directly or indirectly, to gratuities, remunerations, or the “excellent driving” of the coach driver. There was no pressure as it should be.

It has been decades since I've done a coach tour, but it seemed to me that both the driver and the guide were paid, and so I thought of the tip-seeking as a scam to get even more money out of tourists that have already paid way too much for the trip itself, over-priced side tours, and shopping trips where it was obvious that the guide was getting a kickback. It really left a bad taste in my mouth, and is one of the reasons why I've never liked coach tours (that, and the fact that you usually have to stay outside of the city center and are fed bad "group food" dinners instead of spending your evenings strolling through the center of town, finding some lovely interesting little restaurant for a great meal). I have no problem tipping when someone has given me personal service that I felt went above and beyond what should normally be expected, but if they actually made my trip LESS enjoyable than if I had done it on my own, then I have a problem (especially if it is a part of the world where I know that tipping isn't normal or expected, and they are putting out the tip jar because they figure Americans are so used to tipping that they won't question the "why").

It's true that people from certain countries don;t tip - since where they live people in service industries earn a living wage.

However, in some other countries people in service and tourist industries do NOT earn a living wage - and not tipping there is not being well-traveled - it;s just being chepa and chearting these people out of a significant part of their income.

I know this is a problem in NY -where many cab drivers don;t like picking up foreign tourists since so many do not tip - or tip next to nothing. The Taxi & Limousine Commission has tried to solve this problem by
1) giving taxi passengers a hand out at the airports with general info - including what the usual tipping practices are
2)building into the credit card screen a selection of tips from which the passenger can choose when paying by card.

However, apparently this is still a problem - according to a couple of drivers I've spoken to -- and if they are hailed by people obviously foreign - esp to the airport (since they have luggage) - many will not stop - since they can;t afford to lose that much income.

Truly sophisticated travelers would understand the different tipping practices and act accordingly - not gloat over their cheapness and how they have cheated hard-working fairly low income people out of expected tips.

If a tip is essential, why not include it in the price?

Tipping practices around the world for the same services really are fascinating. A day sail trip in the British Virgin Islands (or anywhere else in the Caribbean, I imagine) and a day sail trip in Santorini cost exactly the same (not cheap in either place), but boat crews in the BVI absolutely expect tips, while in Greece it was never mentioned and there was no "tip jar" in sight.

... and every time we have hired private guides in Europe, they have been absolutely shocked and surprised when we tipped them beyond the agreed-on rate.

i have never been to the US, but i heard enough about tiping, and how much it should be etc.
What do taxi drivers earn per month, so that they are depending on tips? In( most) european countries, taxi drivers are paid well enough, so that tiping them is not obligatory and left at the clients discretion.
Same goes to waiters, i can tip if i want, it's up to the client.
They all earn enough money to make a living, tiping them only increases their income.

tejana
since you mentioned the subject bus tours...
In Greece the accommodation of the driver and guide are always paid ( by the participants... as it has been calculated in the price you pay.... Their meals are paid as well, or i'd better say they are free of charge.... plus the guide is getting 20-30 euro per day for the meals, even though he/she is having them for free.
On the top of that guides are charging the organizer of the coach tour, 250-270 Euro per day, according to the languages that they will guide. ( swedish is more expensive then english, and chinese or japanese spkg guides get a top salary, since there is almost no competition.)
On the top of that, everytime you stop at a shop, or visit a restaurant in the group, that wasn't in the schedule, they( driver and guide) get a nice commission, that they share.
After all that i wonder what sense does tipping make, other than make them earn more and more....
I find it great that Aussies and Kiwis don't tip, i wish i wouldn't either.
I am not getting tips at my work , neither do most of us, and i might be earning less than coach drivers and guides !!!

Many taxi drivers are self-employed - paying off their own car and sharing it with a relative - working 12 hours on and 12 hours off. Or if they work for a large company they earn $ per shift they work and the number of hours - there is no such thing as a salary. Waitstaff often earn around $2.50 per hour (way below minimum wage) and free meals. The internal revenue service taxes them on estimated tips (if the waitperson earns them or not) based on the income that they do have.

I recognize that some people don;t like this system - but it is the system we have.

If coming to the US the only appropriate thing to do is tip as expected - or not use services that require tipping. that means use public transit only (and not shuttle buses - since you are supposed to tip the driver for hauling your luggage around) and eating in McDonald's or hot dog carts (since you are expected to tip in ANY restaurant.)

As for the question - why not just include the tip in the price? the answer is that the higher profits would go to the owner of the restaurant or the cab company -and not be given to the driver or the waitperson - who would be in the same position as before. (There are already instances of some restaurant owners taking part of the tips meant for the staff - in fact there is a class action suit here in NYC against a couple of owners who systematically cheated the staff out of tips.) If they raised prices what do you think are the chances any of the money would go to the waitstaff.

You are supposed to report your tips to your employer in the USA and the amount listed as tips on W2's can be refuted with proper documentation. Do all people in the service industry accurately report their tips to their employers for them to withhold taxes? And say blackjack dealers in Las Vegas can make a pretty penny and since tips are not based on income the way say a waitress does, I doubt extremely they report all tips ac curatelyt to their employers as required by law.

Everybody, of course, is partial to their own system. It's the way it is. Personally, mny tip in a restaurant is and has always been 15% provided service is acceptable; yet Im told that somebody has now declared the proper tip is 20%. Who died and made the somebody king?

Um...wait staff do not necessarily get free meals. At least not as a matter of course. At my son's place, they get it for 50% of the menu price. Or at the end of the night, if there is something not worth saving overnight, they get leftovers. When the menu changes with the season, they usually get a big tasting meeting. The restaurant world varies as much as the travel world. I don't begrudge people tips if the service is good, and I will overtip if it is special. In our town, 18% has become the norm. But we can still eat here for less than $100/two including wine.

Ah...does anyone else remember that classic thread on tipping the pilot?

We Kiwis like to know that the price we're being quoted is a true reflection of what the tour is going to cost us. It's pleasing to see that some tour companies are now recognising this - the newest tour brochures I've seen in New Zealand (for European river cruises) advertise their prices "with gratuities included". That's a step forward - we know exactly how much we're up for.

In fact there seems to have been a general shift towards "all in" quoting and advertising, no doubt due to objections such as are being expressed in this thread. It wasn't that long ago that airfares were always quoted "exclusive" of airport taxes, for example. But not any more. People demanded more transparency in advertising, and now airfares are quoted with taxes etc included.

I guess that's why we Down-Under citizens have trouble with tipping. It comes up after the event, when expectations have already been formed based on a quoted or advertised price. Not that I've ever had difficulty with adding a little extra for service "above and beyond..." etc. That's an expression of thanks. But to be expected to pay extra for an "expected" level of service, because an employer pays subsistence wages and the country hasn't got its act together industrially to address that issue, is another thing entirely. Especially in countries like the US that supposedly enjoy a higher living standard than our own!

"Not that I've ever had difficulty with adding a little extra for service "above and beyond..." etc. That's an expression of thanks. But to be expected to pay extra for an "expected" level of service, because an employer pays subsistence wages and the country hasn't got its act together industrially to address that issue, is another thing entirely. Especially in countries like the US that supposedly enjoy a higher living standard than our own!

Absolutely spot on.

Out dining with a group of friends the other day, we noticed that a 'voluntary' service charge of 20% had automatically been added to the bill, this was almost £35.

Cheeky sods. Needless to say they got nothing.

AND none of us will be going back.

That's another bunch of customers pi$$ed off.

A great way to run a business, I don't think !!

Muck

That's a common practice in many restaurants in the NYC area but here's what they don't tell you. First of all, the tip is supposed to be only on the total of the bill but they put it on the bill + 8.25% sales tax and secondly as I noted several times, the proper tipping rate has always been 15% on restaurants and as far as I am concerned, that is what it is supposed to be.

Twoflower, I'm an Aussie and I totally agree with what you have stated. To us it is an expression of thanks if we have received good service/food etc.

Some years ago we were on a boat cruise in Brugge, the driver must have mentioned the tipping jar at least 6 times during his commentary - needless to say 99% of the people walked right by that jar. We would have been happy to to leave something but his attitude turned us right off.

We are heading off on a cruise next year on the Ruby Princess, gratuities are added to our onboard account so we know what to expect. But when we do reach the Caribbean and do that catamaran cruise, how much are we expected to tip?

And what about those taxi drivers and wait staff, what is the norm for tipping in the US? We want to get it right.

Truly sophisticated travelers would understand the different tipping practices and act accordingly - not gloat over their cheapness and how they have cheated hard-working fairly low income people out of expected tips.

Agreed.

First of all, the tip is supposed to be only on the total of the bill but they put it on the bill + 8.25% sales tax

I've never seen a pre-calculated tip that was not based upon the pre-tax figure.

the proper tipping rate has always been 15% on restaurants and as far as I am concerned, that is what it is supposed to be.

To paraphrase you: who died and made you king? And supposed to be? It is whatever common practice makes it. Justify your lower tip any way that you want, but don't mislead people into thinking that 20% has not become very much the standard tip in many parts of the US.

To our foreign friends, when visiting the US, tipping 20% at restaurants is very much within the normal range, particularly in New York, the urban Northeast, Vegas, and California. I would also offer that it is easier to calculate than 15%.

But to be expected to pay extra for an "expected" level of service, because an employer pays subsistence wages and the country hasn't got its act together industrially to address that issue, is another thing entirely. Especially in countries like the US that supposedly enjoy a higher living standard than our own!

What a load of poppycock. The reason the issue has not been addressed is because it is not an issue. Everyone knows that they need to tip and virtually all people do. Not a problem.

Besides, it allows Kiwis like you to feel superior and God knows you don't get many opportunities to do that.

Many taxi drivers are self-employed - paying off their own car and sharing it with a relative - working 12 hours on and 12 hours off.

Even taxi drivers that do not own their car are usually self-employed. They will basically rent the car for the shift - if they don't drive enough business, then they will actually lose money on the shift.

From a guide to tipping in the USA.....

e general guideline is 20% for excellent service, 15% for solid service, and 10% for bad service.[6] On average, people tip 18%

BTW...on more than one occasson I have had establishments use the post tax amount in computing their suggested gratuity

Why should one tip for bad service? 10% seems a lot, I would think it would be zero%.

Guidelines are just that GUIDElines. The amount and quality of service has, IMO, absolutely NOTHING to do with how much the person performing the service makes in salary, on their "other and real" job, and all those OTHER EXCUSES a bunch of cheapass people keep putting forward in the hopes that they'll garner support for not tipping.

Those who whine about tips have obviously never had to work for one pure and simple.

>>Why should one tip for bad service? 10% seems a lot, I would think it would be zero%<<

If they were being paid properly in the first place (see above), perhaps.

Perhaps calling it "tips" is the problem. It sounds as though in the US, a lot of people in service industries are, in effect, employed on "commission only" terms, like people selling from a catalogue. You might not, in the end, like the product all that much or the way in which it was delivered, but you still recognise that the agent has to be paid something.

These tipping threads always devolve into who's a cheapskate and who's a capitalist running dog... For what it's worth, I (a Kiwi) am totally against the whole concept of tipping as a replacement for decent salaries, but I do believe you should learn what's appropriate when travelling and do what the locals do. (And for every anecdote about NY taxi drivers not wanting to pick up foreigners, you could substitute one about, for example, Czech waiters ignoring the locals in favour of dancing attendance on big-tipping foreigners - according to Czech friends of mine anyway.)

If there's no local tradition as such to fall back on (as with a coach tour) then it only seems fair that the company or agents should be upfront about what's included and what's not from the beginning, and remember that while Americans might still expect to tip on top of an "all-inclusive" holiday, people from other cultures won't, or would only expect to give perhaps a small token, not several euros a day each.

gwan....I will use Trafalgar as an example. It is clearly stated what's included and what isn't included in the literature, on their bulletin board and in the documents you receive before the tour. The suggested tipping amounts are clearly listed. Now of course some people don't read this stuff and also in some cases the travel agents are at fault as they don't make it clear what's included and what isn't included.

As far as other things, I admit I'm sometimes at a loss when travelling as to what's expected. I think in London, the going rate is 10% at restaurants at least restaurants iI go to (moderately priced restaurants, not McDonald's and not top of the line); like I said the restaurants I frequent in the USA in general are moderately priced restaurants and despite what somebody else wrote, I just checked to make sure, most guide books still say tips should be in the range from 15% to 20% (I presume 20% is for haute cuisine type restaurants you know where the maitre d expects a gratuity, the wine stewart expects a gratuity, yada yada yada. Perhaps my "ignorance" is that I never go to resturants such as that. I don't take taxis for the most part, public transport is fine, I have long since passed the point where I need a hair stylist, an $* hair cut is fine with a $2 tip I look at it that the haircut is worth $10. I don't sit for hours in a Las Vegas casino and don't find it necessary to tip the blackjack dealer who is trying to beat me, in a way, anyway. So maybe, I'm just as ignorant, if that's the proper word. As I said, I was brought up and taught by my parents when we frequented the same type of restaurants (my parents were poor, I wouldn't say I[m poor but I'm not super rich) to tip 15% and haven't seen any reason to change it.

Frankly in our country there is a large underground economy whether it be contracters of any kind, you know pay me cash so there's no record. Why is that? We all know the reason. While there are procedures set up by the IRS, I am sure a great deal of tip income is not reported, that many in the service industry do not report their cash tips as required by law and they're (the service providers) are quite happy with the system so let's not necessarily feel sorry for them.

It's the way it is. Nobody's system is superior to the other.

"Even taxi drivers that do not own their car are usually self-employed. They will basically rent the car for the shift - if they don't drive enough business, then they will actually lose money on the shift."

For private hire drivers it's the same in the UK, I drove a taxi for a year, the most regular tippers were British, I used to pick up an American woman regularly but she never tipped. I thought the Unions very fairly strong in the States, have they not tried to sort this low pay problem out?

In the US, a tip of 10% was the norm (easy to figure!) and it has steadily increased to at least 15%, 20% for good service. The restaurant reports tips based on 8% of the meal value. Therefore, if the waiter does areal bad job, giving no tip actually costs him money!

One reason that many service providers don't mind a lower wage and reliance on tips is that they make much more this way than if they were paid a set wage. I am sure it is rough on cleaning ladies and cafe waitresses, but cocktail waitresses and sky caps do quite well.

OK i know this has been said quite a few times,but why are clients supposed to cover the salary of waiters in the US?
When in other parts of the world they are getting a salary they can live with, paid from their employer?

I am not wanting to change anything, and i can imagine that things like that might never change in the US, but still i cannot understand it.

clausar...think about it for a second...clientelle all over the world pay the salary of the help with their patronage. If you don't go to the restaurant, they lay off staff, right. You know for years we had this commercial here which said you can pay me now or pay me later....ultimately it should all shake out the same or very similar.

Once again, in some respects, the systems used to calculate taxable income by the US IRS is far from perfect. Tips are supposed to be reported to employers who then pay out certain payroll taxes for their employees and withhold others. Do they report all their tips properly? I'm not in that line of work so I don't know, I really don't. The IRS has then devised other indirect means t tryt to calculate if service personnel are reporting all their tips. Many like it this way and don't feel victimized at all; it's simply the way the industry developed for better or for worse. I don't say it's the best system, I don't say it's the worst system but it's the system we have and it isn't going to change soon.

I thought the Unions very fairly strong in the States,

Not particularly strong, no.

have they not tried to sort this low pay problem out?

Who said that tipped employees were low paid? Waiting tables, in particular, can be very lucrative. Driving a taxi is less lucrative, I think, but still not bad for what is a pretty low-skill occupation.

why are clients supposed to cover the salary of waiters in the US?

You don't think you are covering the salary of waiters when dining in other countries? Where do you think the money comes from to pay them? The Tooth Fairy?

travelgourmet

<<You don't think you are covering the salary of waiters when dining in other countries? Where do you think the money comes from to pay them? The Tooth Fairy?>>

no need to be ironical please.

In other countries i am not obliged to tip, and waiters are having a salary paid from their employers, when in the US - correct me if i am wrong- i am obliged to tip, because they are getting ridiculous 2 U$ per hour, as other mentioned...

In defence of Kiwis and Asutralians everywhere I'll add my two cents worth to this thread.

I'm Australian and I recently spent three weeks in the US on a trip with 3 girlfriends. Here at home we usually tip unless the food or service are awful. But the amount we tip is up to us, usually 10% and as has been stated earlier, wages in Australia for wait staff are fine, so the tip is just that, a tip for good service.

During our US trip we made very sure that we tipped appropriately, including taxi drivers, everywhere we went. We understood that the tips make up a substantial part of the wages and we had no desire to be seen as cheapskates. To us it was irrelevant whether that is right or wrong, it's just how it is.

I can't quite work out whether the original poster is taking potshots at Australians and New Zealanders or at the tipping system. Please don't judge us all by your experience.

In other countries i am not obliged to tip, and waiters are having a salary paid from their employers

And in other countries, those costs are bundled into the price you pay. You still pay for it. Even when factoring in a 20% tip, I find dining out in the US to be a relative bargain compared to similarly developed countries.

when in the US - correct me if i am wrong- i am obliged to tip, because they are getting ridiculous 2 U$ per hour, as other mentioned...

No, you are obliged to tip because it is the custom.

I think this is a subject that cannot be resolved. Each of us carries beliefs based on practices in our own countries and our own characters, and none of us has good information on the practices of the countries we visit.

One poster assumes that the travel company underpays its employees, and the employees apparently have no knowledge of the tipping practices on the tour. Its hard to believe that an employee would take a job under such circumstances. I think it more likely that the employee knows tipping is expected, and feels he can earn more by giving very good service and getting better than average tips; if the employee delivers inferior service, he should not expect a tip and will probably find another position. No problem there.

In the US, we have minimum wages (most workers are paid more than the minimum wage) but the minimum wage is lower for waitstaff, in recognition that they also receive tips. All of my kids worked as waitstaff, or similar, during some school breaks, and they were all happy with the lower wage, because they could pick up quite a bit in tips. That seemed like a win-win situation, as the customer got very good service, which reflected on the establishment, and the employee got a good income, absent the occasional traveler who chose to ignore the local practice. I like the policy because I think it gives workers a powerful incentive to do good work.

I think if each of us stopped being defensive about our own inflexible practices, and paid more attention to the practices of the place we are visiting, it would be a better world. I know most Americans are so used to tipping that it is uncomfortable not to tip, assuming good service. People from other countries may very well feel just the opposite. But the idea that you can visit the US and compel us to change our procedures by stiffing a waiter is ridiculous.

"No, you are obliged to tip because it is the custom."

The custom over here is that you don't have to tip but can if you want to but you still get "lamb shanks" throwing their money at (seemingly) anyone who looks at them for longer than a couple of seconds, so customs don't necessarily mean a lot.

Appropriate tip in a restaurant is 20% of food and wine/drinks - but not tax. Perhaps in other parts of the country 15 is appropriate. It;s not here. And if the service is bad (as in the fuaut of the waitstaff, not that of the chef) then there should be a complaint to the maitre's - and I wouldn't tip at all. But there is no excuse for cutting the tip of the waitstaff if the problem is hte fault of the kitchen.

ny traveler...why do you think the appropriate tip in one part of the country is 20% and less in other parts? Again, I think it has more to do with th rating of the restaurant than a general rule.....I have checked guide after guide and they all basically say 15% for good service, 20% for exceptional service. None of the ones I found laid down a blanket rule. If I go to Red Lobster, as an example, I believe 15% is for the most part appropriate as well as the Boulder Creek Steak House or TGI Friday's or whatever. Those are restaurants I consider moderately priced (on the low end of moderate) just using them as examples...those are the places my friends and I eat out at, no we know they're not haute cuisine. I just don't go to that type of restaurant. Now you're trying to tell me 15% is an inappropriate tip when ever guide book I've seen sways it is? We'll just have to agree to disagree.....

....so according to your analysis f the situation if I go to an Outback Steak House, another what I would consider a moderate priced restaurant although others might call it inexpensive, in New York the proper tip is 20% but if I order the identical meal at the Outback in Sunrise, FL the apprpriate tip is 15%?

But I will agree with you. If I went to Benny Benson's steakhouse in midtown (not that I would be caught dead in there of course) I would probably under the circumstances tip 20%

I think that “tipping” is a misnomer in the USA. What one calls a “tip” is actually how people get their wages – which is why they are taxed on the tips that they SHOULD receive, rather than what they ACTUALLY receive.

Given that I don’t expect service for free, I think it is fair to leave a tip if people are not being paid a living wage.

In Australia, waiting staff, cab drivers, hotel cleaners, all those people in service industries, get paid a living wage. So tipping is not a mandatory custom.

In Aus, I tip cab drivers and waiters, but it’s not any sort of calculated percentage. If the cab fare comes to $45, I’ll offer a $50 note, and say keep the change. At the place where we eat breakfast every Saturday, the bill is always $22.20 (yep, boring, but it’s part of the Saturday routine) I’ll pay either $23.00 or $24.00 or $25.00, and decline the change. It’s only a couple of dollars, and creates goodwill.

I find it odd that people will compute a % tip based on food + drinks, but not include the tip on tax. And I like the way it is in Europe, where service is included, or nominated at a set %. Even then, if we’ve had a happy time, I’ll throw in some extra money.

It’s good to pay tips as cash, not add it to the credit card bill. If you tip in cash, the waiting staff stand a good chance of seeing the tip.

Peter.....people are taxed only on the tips they actually receive.....the problem is the IRS believes that so many tips are not properly reported that elaborate systems have been set up for employers to allocate tips most any way they want; however a waiter with proper records can still show that the amount is incorrect; you can draw your own conclusions as to why so many people don't bother.

<<I find it odd that people will compute a % tip based on food + drinks, but not include the tip on tax.>>

I find that strange as well, also I've seen people on this board say they tip 18%, talk about a difficult calculation, why not 15 or 20%, a lot simpler

Geordie...I think in one of my posts it said the average tip seems to be 18% which means just about an equal number of people tip 15% and 20%...

True, tipping isn't a big part of Kiwi culture - in New Zealand. But one should be careful about generalising, on a recent trek in Morocco I paid an amount I had been told was fair as tip for our lovely, patient guide, also to our muleteer. The British couple with me complained about the need to tip, asked what I'd paid then paid the same amount - from 2 of them!

in New York the proper tip is 20% but if I order the identical meal at the Outback in Sunrise, FL the apprpriate tip is 15%?

Correct.

I am going to make this one and final post....I did a google search on tipping guide for US restaurants and went through two pages of hits.....not a single one indicated that 15% was not an acceptable tip...almost every single one said 15% for good service and 20% for exceptional service (exclusive of taxes of course)......I'll stick to what I said based on this...15% of the bill is an acceptable tip here in this country and none of them said you tip more in New York City. Now if somebody wishes to give me a site that says a proper tip for good service is 20%, please direct me. Other than that, this thread has run its course.

...and when you use a % and not a fixed amount, you can't even use the excuse the cost of living has gone up...the higher prices reflect that and the meal that cost $50 10 years ago now goes for $70 which means the tip of $7.50 has gone to $10.50 and since the price of a meal is higher say in New York than Florida, so too would the tip. I just don't understand what I'm missing here bu people who claim they know and nobody else knows.

I find it odd that people will compute a % tip based on food + drinks, but not include the tip on tax.

That is just what the "book" says. I suspect that many people simply tip on the total bill. The receipt will note the pre-tax amount, so it really isn't any more difficult to calculate in this way.

Personally, I tip on the total, including tax, if for no other reason than habit. Frankly, the difference is negligible. For example, if you tip 20% on a bill in New York City that was $200 before tax, the incremental cost from tipping on the total bill would be $3.55. I'm not going to sweat 1.5% or so of the total amount I have to shell out.

Leaving aside whether or not it's appropriate to tip, it was rude of your Australian/NZ tour group companions to repeatedly use you for spleen venting.
As for the "living wage" or "decent wage" mantra from the no-tip crowd, I remain skeptical about whether someone working in an average or low-end pub in London or Sydney or in a small cafe in Paris really makes enough to pay for decent housing and living expenses in those expensive cities, to support a family, and to set money aside every month for emergencies or for the future. IMO, the definition of what "living wage" means is highly elastic.

Regarding waiters, I always wonder if a waiter who serves a $50 meal is really working all that much harder than a waiter serving a $25 meal to deserve twice as much money as a tip.

“Leaving aside whether or not it's appropriate to tip, it was rude of your Australian/NZ tour group companions to repeatedly use you for spleen venting.”

FoFoBT,
Actually I did not take offense and chalked it up to a “lively cultural exchange.” These Aussies and Kiwis were fun to travel with, an experience I have found many times in the past.

Although my means have been modest (“retired” public school teacher near Boston), my income was always steady and my job very secure – that is changing of late in the US, but is another story. Therefore, I guess I have always sympathized with those who work jobs where the largest part of their wages comes from tips/gratuities whatever you want to call them.

As stated above, tips in metropolitan areas of the US are in the 18-20% range –that’s just the way it is. And because of our ailing economy, patronage at our local restaurants has declined dramatically since 2008, making (in my view) the inclination to tip generously more pronounced. It’s sad to see a competent wait staff standing around during a shift when they would like to be busy serving patrons. Recently I met a friend at a restaurant where the owner practically embraced me as a new customer when I walked in the door. The place was nearly empty.

Regarding tour directors and bus drivers, their work is mostly seasonal. Their business, according to reports, has also declined with the economy. I have no idea how much they make, but methinks that tipping is the most significant part. Last summer on a tour of Britain, I tripped in York (morning, clear sidewalk – who knows?). The tour director wanted to take me to the hospital in York, but I said, “No way, go on to Edinburgh, I’ll survive.” It was a long ride but with Advil from other passengers and a homemade sling, I made it to the Scottish capital. Was told I needed surgery so I planned to leave the tour the next day.

The proper cast I was given at the Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh made me more comfortable. I then sat down with John, the tour director, at the hotel to “sign off” from the tour. He and the staff at Roxburghe were most helpful because I was in no condition to make flight arrangements etc. I then asked John, “Do you have an evaluation sheet for the trip?” He produced one in quick fashion and I gave him a glowing review for all of his help and concern which he really appreciated. I then gave John and the bus driver the tips that I had expected to give them at the end of the trip – it was not their fault that I was leaving. This made me feel good because I had all of the £££s I would not spend and I knew that my trip insurance would reimburse me for the days I missed and the flight from Edinburgh to Heathrow.

Not sure how I got on to this lengthy reflection. I never expected to get such a response to this tread. Obviously, the subject of tipping remains a lively one….

Regarding waiters, I always wonder if a waiter who serves a $50 meal is really working all that much harder than a waiter serving a $25 meal to deserve twice as much money as a tip.

Well, one should expect them to be a better waiter, so you pay for that. They may also serve fewer covers in a night and they might have more people to tip out (bus boys, expediter, bar, etc).

Tipping threads always become quite contenteous, so much so that on say the Trafalgar bulletin board they are banned. It always goes the same way.....people from cultures where tipping is not the expected norm claim their way is better that they pay members of the service industry a living wage and tips are only there to reward superior service. OTOH you have the way it is done in the USA...the poor abused waiters or bartenders or dealers in Las Vegas or hair dressers...they work for slave wages and need the tip income to survive. But then again, as we've seen on this thread, we can't even agree if the proper tip to a waiter in a restaurant is 15% or is it 20%....are waiters so abused by the system? And it goes back and forth just like this thread went and in the end. well what is the end? We still don't know which way is better. We still don't know if the proper tip to a waiter in a restaurant is 15% or 20%. Who really knows? It is what it is.

I have just had to look up what a bus boy does, and I have no clue what an expediter does in a restaurant. The idea that the waiters should pass on part of the tips they receive to other staff within their team seems an absurd way of carrying on.

Does this happen outside North America? I have certainly never seen any sign of it in the restaurants I have visited in the U.K. and other European countries.

Is this the reason why tipping practices vary between North America and other parts of the world?

I have no clue what an expediter does in a restaurant.

They act as the bridge between the kitchen and the waitstaff. Assembling orders, garnishing, maybe assembling salads, that sort of stuff. A good expediter is worth their weight in gold in a busy restaurant. Less busy or smaller restaurants might not have an expediter and the waitstaff may deal directly with the kitchen.

are waiters so abused by the system?

No they are not. This portrait arises from some folks feeling like they need to justify tipping to themselves. Not sure why 'because it is the norm' isn't a good enough justification...

The idea that the waiters should pass on part of the tips they receive to other staff within their team seems an absurd way of carrying on.>

why does it - don't kitchen help, bus boys and their ilk work as hard as wait people - or harder perhaps? Why should they not get a cut of the tips for work done? - A cook who makes say a steak to order what the customer has asked for.

Actually IMO all workers in restaurants should receive a decent wage from the owner and thus no need for tips at all - owners in N America are getting slave labor with very little pay - a special minimum wage is in effect for restaurant help and pass the cost of service on to the patron - in most of the rest of the world ther is a mandatory service charge added on to the bill that pays the help, who also often receive fairly good salaries and benefits compared to exploited American restaurant workers

Imagine going to the supermarket and having to tip the cashier because they did not get paid by the store owner - this whole thing to me is a barbaric practice that exploits workers - wait people kind of have to grovel for tips - being overly patronizing IMO - unless say Parisian waiters who view their job as a profession and IME at times give rather inpersonal perfunctory but proper - very proper service.

Does this happen outside North America? I have certainly never seen any sign of it in the restaurants I have visited in the U.K. and other European countries.

Is this the reason why tipping practices vary between North America and other parts of the world?

PalenQ....Here's the deal although some will deny it. Americans, for the most part, are very good at paying their taxes as long as they are properly reported to the government and taxes withheld from salaries. I've read in some literature that compliance rates are higher in the USA than in many other countries (I really don't know about Australia)...but the caveat here is what is reported properly.

This was mentioned in this thread and I've spoken to many waiters who laugh at me (I also do income tax returns as a side vocation).....in any situation such as the self employed where reports are not made to the government, well there is a huge underground economy that we mentioned.

Waiters and anybody in the service industry are required to report their tips to their employers to make the reports to the government. The IRS has also set up systems to try to guestimate what is not reported (this is called allocated tips; there is a complicated formula based on tips report on credit cards as compared to gross receipts; the employer then allocates the tips in any fair manner he sees fit. How effective is it? Nobody really knows; you do hear some complaints from waiters who are honest when allocated tips are greater than what they claimed....we can then report the lower figure but have to expect an IRS audit (I've won several based on good recordkeeping)...in other cases the waiter just smiles when I ask about the allocated tips, they know (and I know) the figure is quite low. And of course a lot of cash tips, just like cash payments to independent contractors, are simply never picked up. Waiters and others in the service industry are quite happy about this (one of the reasons I pay my tips on credit card receipts so there is a record and they do pay their proper taxes). I don't know how severe the problem really is...the IRS claims they are losing millions in this area and are always looking for ways to try to avoid this from happening.

Are all waiters thieves? No, of course not. Are some people hit with tip income they never earned? Yes but from what I can see, the vast majority of people in the service industry simply see this as one of the perks of the job. (Look at box 8 on the US government's form W2 called allocated tips....

In the US, it is common that the non-wait staff is paid more than the wait staff, in recognition of the reality of tipping.

Some places do pool tips; I saw this recently in Ireland.

In college, I worked as a bar tender, and I and the cook had a higher wage than the waitresses, who of course had the tip income to bring their earnings up. But that was a policy of one establishment, and I'm sure others had different policies.

I've just booked a tour in Australia with AAT Kings and this thread made me check what their small print stated:

<While it’s not compulsory in Australia or New Zealand, tipping is becoming an increasingly accepted practice in all areas of the service industry, but particularly in restaurants, bars and taxis. Likewise on your AAT Kings tour, if you feel that your Tour Director, Driver, Driver guide or Private cook has done an excellent job, then we would recommend tipping up to the equivalent of AUD$5/NZ$5 per day. However, it’s not compulsory. It is up to you!>

Is this now the normal practice for the service industry in Australia, as stated? Should I be tipping the Tour Director/Driver every day or at the end of the tour?

Big Man, thanks for your pertinent post about current tip guidelines in Australia. Tips are given at the end of the tour. Also important to tour directors and drivers are good recommendations on evaluations sheets assuming, of course, that their service is good.

Have a great trip....