One concern might be the cost. When I attended grauate school in London back in the Dark Ages, tuition was very reasonable. Recently I looked up the cost nowadays, and it is out of sight. And, then there are the living expenses, not inconsiderable. I have an Irish passport, but one would have to prove paying taxes there for a number of years in order to qualify for resident or EU tuition. Good luck !

Bedar thank you for your response and that is a good point. We have checked into tuition, fees and room/board for an international student. While it is high, it actually is more reasonable than most 4 year private schools in the US. We won't attempt to gain residency/EU tuition. Even with the cost of travel to return home for holidays, the schools seem to be less expensive. An Irish passport may only help with possible visa issues if she is admitted to Trinity. My limited research indicates that she shouldn't have a problem with obtaining a visa for the UK.

You could try one of the different comparison guides such as the Times or the Guardian's listings. There are other more student-focussed guides and rating systems such as the PUSH guide.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/universityguide
http://extras.thetimes.co.uk/public/good_university_guide_landing
http://www.push.co.uk

They won't cover Trinity College Dublin since it's not in the UK, but this may be of interest:
http://9thlevel.ie/news-and-discussion/university-rankings/

Edinburgh and St Andrew's are likely to have student guides published by their own students, as well as the official ones - you could try searching for those or student messageboards.

They're all respectable and traditional universities with a long history, but the social experience will certainly be different as between the big cities (Edinburgh and Dublin) and St Andrews.

In the last major national assessment of staff research in economics, the average ratings for staff at both Edinburgh and St Andrews came in roughly around the middle (Edinburgh some way ahead of St Andrews); that's not necessarily a guide to the quality of the total educational experience, but it might suggest they're neither particularly innovative or cutting-edge. But that was some years ago.

One point to bear in mind: AFAIK (I used to work at this about fifteen years ago, but I don't know if things have changed since), having EU citizenship (through Ireland or anywhere else) makes no difference to whether or not a student pays fees at the overseas student rate in the UK - that goes with residence in the EU, which your daughter would not be able to establish.

The University of St. Andrews is a wonderful school. Our daughter has spent all four years studying there and will graduate in June. There is a large population of American students, along with a sizeable international student body and of course, UK students. The town is charming and most students walk everywhere. There is no need for a car. First-year students often stay in residence halls (dorms) and then often rent a flat with several others for the remaining years. Classes are small and the experience is quite different from the U.S. It may vary by course of study, but there is usually a lot of independent research, a lot of reading and a lot of writing. There is a vibrant social life with activities for just about any interest. The quality of education is outstanding, along with the opportunity to see how students from other nations view the world. The only drawbacks are the amount of travel involved to and from the United States and, depending on where you are from, possibly the weather. It is also quite expensive. Good luck!

Thank you all for your great responses. All very helpful. The rankings for economics are interesting. While I would love for her to attend Oxford or Cambridge, I am not sure she would be accepted - she's an excellent student, top 5% of her class, but ...

I'm sure you've started to look into this but the educational experience is m uch different in UK/Ireland than in US universities. And the students come with a much differnt educational background - not necessarily better - but differnt.

As you know in US schools students are ususaly required to taek a wide variety of courses and generally don't do theses or oral exams as undergraduates. Not sure of the specific differences - but it could be demanding in unexpected ways. Strongly suggest a week or so visit to at least one of hte schools in question before making a final decision.

(A relative of mine spendt a year in Endinburgh and loved it - but it was her junior year and she was already well into her major subject.)

Our daughter also spent her undergraduate years at St Andrews, and loved it. She got her graduate degree at Edinburgh, and though she loved the city, she felt the quality of teaching was not as good as at St Andrews. Our daughter just got her post study work visa. I am afraid we may lose her to the UK-- after all that is where she is at home, and where her friends are. Be warned. Luckily it is a great place to visit.

Patrick's ratings (which I don't have time to check) were for staff research, not for undergraduate tuition so not really relevant to the OP's situation. St Andrews has an enviable reputation and is one of the most over-subscribed universities in the UK. Edinburgh is also very popular and highly regarded (though writing as a St Andrean, it hurts me to type that )

Bennie

My wife was Oxford some years ago.

It is still absolutely if your face fits.

Everyone applying has to achieve a certain level of academic standard. This comes in the form of the entrance exam and a required attained level of external exam results. There is no point applying unless a student feels that they are capable of achieving that standard.

After that entrance is down to your socio/economic/cultural background and the interview.

It is a crying shame that many students apply to certain colleges when the odds are stacked against them before they even apply. certain colleges prefer an intake from certain geographic or social backgrounds.

Look at the educational background of much of the current British government, there are some common themes.

It is always worth your daughter applying but make sure you stack the odds in her favour.

Greatest achievement anyone could hope for, in my very humble opinion.

I would agree with the thoughts above.

St Andrews is a very solid choice both academically and in terms of a social experience.

DickieG - I get all that, which is why I wouldn't encourage her applying. She's a typical small town all-American kind of girl (albeit with a huge interest in the big world out there) and I sincerely doubt the powers that be at those institutions have any interest in her socio/economic/geographic background, regardless of her academic prowness.

DDA- I appreciate your viewpoint. It will come as no surprise to find our daughters living far from home. Wanderlust seems to be part of our DNA. She is only the 2nd generation in the US and it wouldn't be a big deal for her to end up backwhere her grandparents started.

All of the responses are so helpful - good questions to consider. This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for from Fodorites. Thank you.

DickieG - my response was regarding Oxford and Cambridge - your second post came in while I was considering your first. Sincere thanks for your input.

I will not name names but certain college exist for small town students.

My wife rode on the back of it and it was a major factor in her successful application.

Since her primary goal seems to be an outstanding (and internationally recognized) education in economics, have you checked out LSE?
While any potential UK employer's HR department may be very familiar with what a degree from uni A vs uni B is "worth", I assume that your daughter will need the recognition of her achievements probably from a potential employer in the US. And i would not bet my life on it that every HR department in an economics-related company will be able to say if a degree from Edinburgh was far more valuable than one from Berkeley or vice versa.
Maybe you have some friends in relevant positions like a recruiter or senior HR staff stateside who can give you some guidance on this issue.
So besides Oxbridge I would not know any other school or uni that was so much a well-reputed worldwide household name in the field of economics than LSE.

Cowboy1968 - excellent points! The problem (in her mind) with LSE is that it's in London and she wanted a smaller city/town experience. Granted she is only 16 and will change her mind 12 times before a final decision is made. LSE would be first on my list for grad school for her but one step at a time.

I love your idea of seeking guidance from recruiters. I think I can arrange that.

So much to conser and it's still a long way off. Thanks again for all input.

It used to be more difficult to get into LSE than Oxford to read economics but times change.

In addition, don't forget that if she were not to finish her course there and were to return to the US, there would be the issue of obtaining credit for her time there. The credits system that we have here is not extant there.

I would be sure to come to the UK prior to making the decision to see these places in person. Once she compares London to Edinburgh to st Andrews she may feel differently. I am sure it would make a great and interesting trip!

An Irish passport may only help with possible visa issues if she is admitted to Trinity. My limited research indicates that she shouldn't have a problem with obtaining a visa for the UK.

With an Irish passport she wouldn't need a visa for the UK - or for anywhere else in the EEA (EU plus a few other countries). She'd also have the right to live and work anywhere in the EEA for the rest of her life without the restrictions that a visa would place on her.

Irish citizenship won't however help with the fees as paying the local rate is dependent on residency, not citizenship.

Okay.. as it's still a few years to make a decision, here is my "vision" (Keep in mind that you need an evaluation from someone familiar with the situation in the US, so take it just as an example!!!)

If I had her resumee on my desk, and I do get a few to assess, this full undergratuate studies abroad would stand out. The "norm" nowadays is 2 semesters if someone goes abroad (probably more easy within the EU than transatlantic).

Why did you go to a good school in the UK and not the US?

Regardless of what you cousins on either side of the Atlantic think and how often you quarrel about saying tomato properly, it's not exactly the biggest culture shock to go from one English-speaking country to another.

If broadening your horizon had been the key issue, wouldn't you have gone the full mile and picked a semester or two at ENA?
Different country, different language. Not just saying chips instead of fries?

In these times, no multi-national sees the UK as something "exotic" but it's usually a hub for its European or EMEA business. So it's no different to live there or in New York.

Next to your daughter's resume is one of a girl who just went for 1-2 semesters abroad, to Salamanca, Spain (I don't even have a clue if that would even be the economics hotspot).
So this girl is fluent now in another world language (which would make her perfect for our Buenos Aires office).

All examples are totally blown out of proportion and may have zero relevance in real US recruiting practices! Just as food for thought to examine if your and your daughter's criteria will be eventually relevant for the recruiters she will deal with.

But I would keep in mind (if you stay focused on the UK) that London is THE hotspot for anything in real life economics, i.e. has the highest density of companies that can offer internships or other kind of work practice.
Extra-curricular experience, networking, .. all this counts (only IMO) more than the quaintness of the school's location these days.

In EMEA attending university in the UK may be pedestrian but I'm pretty sure lots of US recruiters would see the value of it. She'll apply to US schools as well that have great economics departments but she won't be faulted (by a recruiter) for wanting to spread her wings a bit. But even if she were to attend St. Andrews, there wouldn't be anything stopping her from spending a year elsewhere. As you said, its all about the internships these days.

My daughter attended a school in Canada instead of the US where we live. She did her third year at a uni in Germany, unrelated to her regular university. These are some things I noticed just from sending a child to another country to study. The education systems are different in all countries and there were some places where she excelled and there were other places where the others had more requirements. She wasn't able to return home often, and at times this proved lonely for her, especially the first year. The banking, payments etc. were sometimes difficult. We had to prove she wasn't going to go on the dole and we had to prove that she had adequate health insurance. Some of this required faxing and bank transfers. The exchange rate was favorable for us for the first year, and not so much by the time she was finished--it is important to plan for this. I did go with her at the beginning to help her along. Even finding a flat and paying for it was a little problematic. I also learned that Canadian (and maybe other schools?) valued the education more than many of the US schools. In the US, even at the upper level schools, we found it was more of a consumer product. Not bad, just interesting. All that, she had a great experience, is in grad school in the US now. She did have some people question her undergrad choice when she applied for work and grad school, but it did not seem to be a detriment. It was a great experience for her.

Also--since she is only 16, you said it--there may be many changes in the direction she wants to go before all is said and done! My daughter was set one way until March of her senior year, then did the 180 to Canada!

If you haven't already, I would look in detail at the UCAS website, http://www.ucas.com/ , and possibly poke around on amazon.co.uk to see if there are useful books, especially books aimed at international students.

The English undergraduate education structure is very, very unlike the US structure. (I speak from experience in both.) There's no equivalent in the English structure to the US idea of being an econ major who also takes some courses in art history and German literature. The Scottish structure is, as I understand it, more like the US structure, in that you can pursue some studies outside your main field. I don't know about N.Ireland or Ireland.

If she is seriously interested in attending a UK university, I would talk sooner rather than later to someone about appropriate preparation in her US high school -- something that would be equivalent to A-levels, and if she wants to do economics, in particular to A-levels in math and economics (especially math). If her high school offers IB, that may be a good option.

Students at St Andrews typically take a 4-year honours degree course which allows a certain amount of flexibility in what subjects you study in the first 2 years before you have to finally decide which subject you will focus on for your fianl 2 years. From the university website:-

Your first two years

You can use your first two years to discover your own specific strengths before finalising your degree intentions at Honours level.

In the first year you are required to study three subjects. Beyond the requirement to attend the First level modules in the subject(s) to which you have been offered a place, you will be able to choose your other modules from the broad range available in many other subjects.

At the end of each semester you will have the option of continuing with the subjects you are studying; or you can drop one subject and take up something new, provided that you complete any compulsory component of your intended degree.

Honours Years

Towards the end of your second year, if your work has been of a good standard, then you can make a final choice of Honours programme from the Second level subjects that have been most attractive to you. It is in your final two years that you will be able to specialise and gain an intimate knowledge of your chosen subject(s).



From the St Andrews website

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I have a quick question and I want to take advantage of the experts! If my son has British citizenship, but not residency will he pay local or overseas fees? Little background; we should have citizenship next summer, fingers crossed, but university is still a few more years off. We're not sure if we will still be living in England when it's time to apply for university. We're not sure where we will be living at all, but we want to make sure our son has options.

I believe it is based on residency (it is subsidised by taxes paid, which is based on residency).

One bit of progess on this little project has been that we have identified a student who graduated from our local high school (classmate of my older daughter) who is currently attending St. Andrews! I love Facebook! Hopefully he'll be a good source of info.

thanks again to all the posters - everyone has contributed to our knowledge and understanding of the differences and challenges of UK education. It's given her a lot to think about over the next year.

BKP

British citizenship alone won't qualify for home student fees (now up to £9000 a year, but you can take a loan for up to full amount). Overseas (international) student fees vary, set by each uni, but usually from around £12,000, higher for certain subjects like Medicine, Sciences, Engineering etc payable upfront.
Your son needs to be 'ordinarily resident' in UK or in EEA for 3 years prior to starting the course. If it's just your son living in UK, it can't be for the main purpose of receiving education (e.g. to attend boarding school). If he comes as your dependant, that's fine.

Great replies on the educational bit. My addis to apply for the EU passport. It is very beneficial in the long run to have duel citizenship. And an Irish/EU passport opens up someclosed doors regarding employment!

Do think about the climate when making a choice. Four years at St Andrews makes me shudder, unlike in a city like Edinburgh or London. I know young people don't worry alot about the weather, but grey skies can get anyone down with no big city excitement to counter.

Tarquin

She could do as most of us Scots do in the face of climatic adversity.

Eat lots of chocolate, drink plenty of alcohol and spend winters in The Bahamas.

I see nobody has really mentioned Trinity - they have a pretty good economics department, a nice environment for visiting students (I know she plans to be full-time rather than just visiting for a year, but still it helps to have an international programme) and a campus right in the centre of a vibrant but small capital city. They also prioritise places in their campus accomodation for people from overseas - staying in the campus accomodation for 1st year at least is a good way of meeting others in your first year.

Another factor could be that the Irish school leavers exam is not as specialised as the A Levels, so 1st year of an Irish university should be pitched at a more accessible level than 1st year of a UK university where students have reached a higher level in say maths before coming to college. I went to Trinity myself and remember how easy the first year maths classes seemed to those who had come from Northern Ireland / GB compared to how hard it seemed to us!

Not in any way recommending Trinity over St Andrews, but just wanted to add something to the mix!

Well it's interesting that in Scotland the system is more like the US - with 4 years, the first 2 of which you can take courses in a variety of subjects. (In the US kids typically take 5 courses per semester and many of these are requirements they have get out of the way. For example, even though I knew I was going to major in history - and eventually ended up with most courses in history, poli sci and anthropology - in my first years I had to take 2 semesters of math, 2 of science, 2 of English, 4 of fine arts or philosophy or similar - and pass a foreign language exam - which exempted me from taking 4 semesters of a foreign language. Oh, also 2 semesters of gym - thank god they offered riding.)

My understanding is that in the UK students are muchmore focused on a major from the begining and have very limited chioces of other courses to take.

Very timely thread for me, as my daughter (15) just met with a University of St. Andrews representative at her school. It's her #1 choice for undergraduate and she will apply to go next summer to their 4-week Scottish Studies program. Should be a great way for her to determine whether she'd like to live there for 4 years

Hmm . . . not exactly what I wanted to hear but good to know! Thank you.

In Scotland you are admitted to a Faculty and not a department and it's only in Junior Honours (third) year that you start to specialise! So it would be open to your daughter to start with, say, economics and French/ Spanish, and when she moves on to Junior Honours to take that year in a French, Belgian/ Spanish University. Have a look at the Erasmus Programme. Thus, she could kill all Cowboy's birds with one stone.

There's a web site called something like Complete University Guide, which ranks St Andres, Edinburgh and Glasgow in the top 12 for Economics in the UK. And, I hate to say it, but Durham and Bath are up there too.

I know young people don't worry alot about the weather, but grey skies can get anyone down with no big city excitement to counter.

At St Andrews they make their own entertainment

http://www.scotsman.com/news/royal_wedding_couple_met_at_top_matchmaking_university_in_st_andrews_1_479274

Another advantage is that the background of a significant number of students means that Daddy (or Mummy in these non-sexist times) may just happen to have a jet, yacht and a chalet in Switzerland - or a title.

"My understanding is that in the UK students are muchmore focused on a major from the begining and have very limited chioces of other courses to take."

This is a widespread American misapprehension.

Over half my undergraduate contemporaries made dramatic course switches before taking their degree. There were simply a couple of extra hurdles: you often had to convince the tutors about your motives (in my day there'd been an earlier epidemic of people wanting a switch to psychology when they really wanted clinical psychiatry treatment) and that you'd be able to handle the new course - by getting up to A level standard before the switch, and/or by extending your undergraduate days by an extra year.

Policies vary a bit (though it's astonishing how fast you can get to A level physics or Mandarin from scratch if you're motivated) - but generally the better universities actively encouraged switching in my day - and still appear to.