Any expatriates here who are aching to return to the homeland?

I probably will never return to the US. Living in France is great, so why would I leave.

But one item to always remember, living here isn't better, it's not worse, it's just different.

I left the US in 1969 and I haven't looked back yet. I lived in Quebec, Sweden, Spain and finally in France.

Blackduff

I looked into this once, and wierdly, there are no official statistics on emmigration FROM the US.

Apparently the figures (based on unofficial estimates) are significant....

I have no great desire to return to the homeland (UK) but I do enjoy visiting every year. I've lived in Massachusetts for over 6 years now and it feels like it's time for a change (I really hate the long, cold winters). No plans to move back home though I hope to live in Australia next!

When we were living in Belgium and Germany, no. Now that we're in the UK, occasionally. We are not the kind of expats who, after a few years in Europe, decide that everything in the U.S. is inferior. There is much about the U.S. that we genuinely love and miss. We do swan around the real estate listings for Portland, OR, from time to time and if we ended up back there, we'd be happy with it.

We enjoy our trips back to the U.S. to visit family and friends and just soak up the things we love about American life.

But we're not setting any return date. At this stage, we're probably more like to move back to continental Europe than to the U.S.

NoleNomad,

I feel like I could write a book on my thoughts but I'll try not to...

We have been living in Zurich for 15 months. We are a family of 4. Me plus 2 teenagers and a husband who works for a Fortune 100. My husband and I have moved around a bit in the US but this was the first move ever for our girls.

It has been the experience of a lifetime, but not always in the ways we expected.

The kids were devastated to leave our beautiful, small, friendly, community in New England. The younger one adjusted faster. The older one took about 5 months. She is doing fantastically now, but I really worried about her a lot in the beginning. She was pretty low. She gave up a lot to come, but she is really mature and looking at her today, I would say she has embraced this experience and gotten an immeasurable amount out of it. She knows she will definitely be spending Junior year of college in Italy.

The younger one is not yet a big traveler so that hasn't been as interesting or exciting for her. She is in more of an international school though, and probably has learned more about contemporary European culture than the rest of us combined. Some of it has not been very positive. That's one of the down sides.

Europe is a lot less PC than the States. People can be pretty free about what they say and it can get hurtful and tiring especially when you're alone in a foreign country.

We have traveled a lot. Especially me. I've been to Vienna, Salzburg, Amsterdam, Venice, Rome, Amalfi Coast and Pompeii, Milan, Ravenna, Paris X2, Greece, Spain, Morocco and all over Switzerland with various combinations of my family members. Next week I'll go to Budapest with my husband and the following week my daughter and I head to Normandy. After that the whole family will go to London. We have spent a glorious Christmas week in the breathtaking Engadine and have seen a lot of Switzerland with still much more to see. We spent a week in Germany studying German last summer. This year our plan is to see more of Switzerland itself.

I am a hiker and I will dearly miss the Swiss trails when we leave. I just can't imagine going back to my boring walks in my old hometown. I have done a lot of hiking including 3 days on the Jakobsweg here. I hope to continue on the walk this fall.

Living in another country is an adjustment in so many ways and there are a lot of stages you go through. The first 6 months are the honeymoon stage and we definitely experienced that (except for the 16-year-old). Then my husband and I just hit a wall and hated everything about being here. Then just after a year we decided we could stay pretty much indefinitely. That's not an option for us, so we do live with a lot of uncertainty about when we'll leave and to where...That can be very stressful sometimes.

I left a relatively new 2nd career to come here. But I wanted to come, and I really wanted to get my oldest out of a very intense school environment. That has been a great success. I couldn't be happier with how well she is doing and her love of learning that was missing back home.

I do miss having my work. The language issue here is trickier than I expected and I haven't become fluent yet and don't expect I will before we leave. My work requires I'm fluent.

I do a lot more housework and cooking here than ever in my life. The cost of living is very high and the weak dollar is brutal for us. Things around the apt. take longer and there isn't as much prepared food to buy - you know like a lasagna from a local deli or something like that. Dining out is very expensive and generally not as good as at home, so I cook a lot more. I'm not too keen on the Hausfrau part...Our home is much smaller and I like that although the teens do not.

Our family is much closer - especially my oldest daughter and I. My husband travels and works a lot more here, so maybe he is less bonded than the rest of us.

There is loneliness. We all miss our friends. It is hard to replace friends who you've known for years and years. Plus, just when you get a nice new friend, often they are re-assigned to another country. That can be hard for the kids but even harder for the trailing spouse who is alone a lot. I'm pretty resourceful, but I remember crying on my first birthday here - really missed my girlfriends a lot. Relationships can be a lot more superficial given the nature of peoples lives, and the transient lives of ex-pats.

We are lucky to have amazing neighbors who have been so good to us and have become very close friends. I know we'll miss them and stay in touch with them when we leave.

Overall, I'm in no rush to return "home" except I need to maintain my license for my work. I would love another overseas assignment and my kids would probably too. My husband's company is reducing international assignments so we'll likely have to head home.

I think it will be a bit boring to go home to our little town after the last 15 months. OTOH, I can't afford to travel forever!

My girls are so different and have grown up in so many ways I need a whole separate thread to explain it but I'm very pleased.

Of course it goes without saying that we all miss our favorite foods!

Well, this is probably way more than you want to know. But, it's good for me to "talk" about it. So thanks for the opportunity!

gruezi

We are Americans and lived in the UK for almost three years, on job assignments for both my husband and me - so we knew our stint had a finite duration and we would be returning to the US... we both loved it and would do it again in a heartbeat, although the return trip and re-assimilation into our home country (and city) was tough.

Given the opportunity, I don't think I would want to permanently leave the US... not that it's best place to live, but it's my home.

When does an expat stop being an expat? I've been half of my life in Switzerland and half of my life in the US. I speak the local language, have many wonderful relatives nearby, married a local Swiss and now have children.

I love Switzerland and have almost become one with it. Almost. I still miss conversing in English and miss my family in the States. I adore visiting the States but realize when I'm there that I've become a foreigner in the country I was born and raised in.

When I see the fear parents have about the safety of their children, how homeschooling has become accepted as an appropriate alternative to public school and political discussions are still tabu, then I realize how different I've become from many of my fellow US citizens.

What I miss is American helpfulness, the lack of being stigmatized when a mistake is made and how friends can drop by. The Swiss live by their calendars and can't arrange a date without their planner. And women are still judged by their housekeeping skills.

The hardest time I've had in Switzerland is the first few years of being a Hausfrau and Mutter. You have your children, stay at home, cook the meals, clean the house and are there for your children 100%. People leave you alone like the plague because they expect you to be busy with your children. It's very lonely. Joining clubs, getting a part-time job and dreaming about travelling help a lot.

Gruezi, I feel your pain and know how hard and yet thrilling the first year in Switzerland can be. Hang in there and enjoy Switzerland. Good luck in finding a job. It helps to get over the loneliness.

I would love to know how you all do it. I assume you have been transferred to Europe by your employers?

Reading your posts, I see our "opposite" move: USSR to US, is no different! Learning a language, finding a job, taking care of the family, unacceptance by the locals, noticing positives and negatives.

Same path for everybody. Different geography.

My husband and I have been living in Edinburgh for just over 2 years now (from Pennsylvania). We are on the fence right now about whether to go back "home" or stay here. We absolutely love our lives here - we both have fantastic jobs and are just having a blast traveling. I never had the chance to travel before moving here and I get such a thrill out of saying "my weekend in Venice" or Switzerland or any of the amazing places I've seen. I love having 6 weeks of holiday time a year, having nationalised health insurance and I finally feel like I can understand most Scottish accents!

I don't think we'd ever have the idea of moving somewhere "permanently" though - we both work in university settings and the jobs are by definition fairly transient. I would like to always keep our options open - even if we returned to the states, we're thinking about trying the West Coast. We have just started talking seriously about starting a family however so we'll see how our viewpoints change after kids - we might really miss our families more.

How did we do it? We always talked about it and basically the second we got married and my husband got his master's degree (the same month!) he applied for every job he was remotely qualified for in any English speaking country (neither of us has any facility for languages). He took the first one offered and it worked out perfectly for us - we love Edinburgh. He got the job offer, we sold most of our stuff, piled the rest in my dad's basement and flew to Edinburgh 4 weeks later! It was a huge adjustment at the time (especially for me - my husband has been fortunate enough to travel often) but it all worked out in the end.

Hmmm, so how many "foreigners" are there on this board?

I.e. People who don't live in their home country.

I ain't never moving back to England.

This is a hard question to answer. Do I yearn to return to the US? No. Do I plan on making my life here (Denmark)? No. Are the wife and I seriously thinking about trying to land another ex-pat gig somewhere else? Yes.

But, it is so hard to disentangle everything to know how I truly feel. I'm on a fixed assignment, so there is an end date, which likely makes it easier. And Denmark is a good "starter" country - you can get by fine with just English, it is clean, it is safe, and it is not an overwhelmingly large city. I guess it almost feels like an extended vacation, rather than a true move.

The one thing I will say, based upon my interactions with other expats is that whether it works will have much more to do with your family than with anything else. It can be tough with kids, as any move can. But I sense it can be much, much tougher on the trailing spouse. It is tough to give up a job or even the comfort of well-established playgroups and friends. And replacing those groups and friends is not always easy. And, if the spouse isn't happy, then the whole adventure might be doomed from the beginning.

gruezi - what a heartfelt post. Thank you for taking the time to share your families experience.

We're Americans and we've been living in the UK for nine months. We absolutely love it. We moved for my husband's work but there is no definite end date. We are hoping to get to live in many more countries before returning "home."

The US is home, we have family there, and it's always in the back of our minds. We know we'll return someday but we know that living abroad is an amazing adventure. We feel really blessed to have this opportunity. Of course there are drawbacks. I miss Halloween candy. I miss family birthday parties. I miss being completely comfortable in my surroundings. But I do believe the benefits outweigh the costs, in our situation. My little family is more dependent on each other and more independent of our surroundings. Everyday is an adventure that we get to have with each other.

May I intrude myself in this topic?

As a child, my family never really traveled. My dad has never been out of the country. My mom has never been overseas. Family issues and money always kept us from traveling.

Luckily, I have attended national competitions all over the country. It's probably what gave me the love of traveling. I've been to Europe and the Us a few times with high school and college now.

Now, as I'm about to graduate (well still 2 more years of classes and interships), I find myself having 2 choices: either find a job in the city or do a few more years of school and get a job where I'll have to travel all the time, and possibly not even be based in my home town (depending on the company that hires me). I think I would personally like the second choice but I always have the thought in my mind that being away from family and friends will make me lonely and sad at times. I would expect the first years to be more difficult financially and traveling back home might be more difficult. I can't imagine coming home to feel like I've missed out on so much, especially my nephew and nieces growing up. Also, if I'm always on the road, will I ever have time to settle down and start a family?

So much to think about. I would really appreciate hearing from your experiences!

I forgot that I wanted to piggyback a question or two of my own on this thread! For the expat parents, do you feel that certain ages are better than others for living outside of your home countries? Older seems better than younger because they will remember more of the experience, but younger seems better because of the worry that their schooling will be negatively impacted. My son is a toddler and he seems to be having a good time but I worry that he won't remember much. The education system, at least for younger kids, seems great and we're excited for him to go to school here but we've always said we want to be back home in time for the high school years so we don't hurt his college chances. What are your thoughts on this?

My second question -- we're in the UK now because we wanted to try out expat life in an "easy" country. My husband's field is world wide and it seems like the sky is the limit when it comes to different countries we could move to. India is definitely an option, but so is Dubai, Vietnam, Kenya, China -- you name it! Is there any country you wouldn't move to with your children?

Thanks, in advance, for your replies and thoughts and my apologies for hijacking the thread!

gruezi!
Thank you so much...it helped..really, it did

We might still be in the honeymoon stage, with a bit of my hating everything thrown in lol.
Language + finding ones way + missing just One familiar thing + missing friends and family..and doctors..and vet ..and car!!
But other than that, we are fine

We put no timeline on our move and stay here, in Buenos Aires.
We have just been here a year at the end of April..so in many ways we are just settling in.
We apt hunted and renovated and decorated most of that year..so now is exploring, more Spanish classes and letting life take us where it wishes..

But sometimes I want to just fly back to the States for a few days to have a Major Shopping Spree ..

It helps to be in a country where the people are so warm and welcoming..it would help to understand what they are saying, but so far, we are doing ok..

I am not aching to return "home"...right now, this is home... but I am aching to see family so visits are already in the planning..
..

To nessaL,

Why not try your second choice and go for a job with travel. It doesn't have to be forever but if you enjoy travelling then living in another country gives you even more opportunities. You might miss your family particularly after the 'honeymoon period' that gruezi mentioned but then again you might not... or they might visit you!

I lived and worked in the Caribbean for 2 years in my mid twenties and loved the experience. After 10 years back in the UK I was ready to move again and I now live in the US.

To BKP,

Kids travel well! My son was 11 when we arrived and is now 17. My daughter was 4, now almost 11.
Both adapted very quickly and are settled here but they love to visit the UK and catch up with friends.

My son has had one friend fly out to visit us solo and he has travelled to the UK solo and last month he and American friend visited London and Paris together.

We will stay here until my son finishes high school but then we'll move on. There are some countries I'd not consider moving to... I wouldn't move to a war zone for example but my wishlist of countries I would move to is fairly long.

Teenagers are the hardest to move (so well done gruezi!!) but usually they grudgingly adapt sooner than they think. I moved at 16 too.
So move while they're young and they can then rationalise moving when they grow older. My daughter already knows she 'can' move and make new friends and is looking forward to the next adventure (with some trepidation but overall a sense of excitement... she's told her friends to get passports!!).

Gruezi and Schuler

Your stories sound so interesting! I'd love to hear about them more, you have my email address there so if you ever get bored, I'm all ears! and thank you both for helping me out with the upcoming Alpine Adventure (leaving Friday!)

Thanks to all who have responded. A lot of very useful info here.

Thanks to gruezi, in particular, for the details of her situation. Fascinating to read and very insightful. I wish your family the best, gruezi.

I love this thread! I haven't ever lived "abroad" and it's very unlikely that I ever will, but how interesting to hear how others handle it.

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences.

I lived in the UK for 5 years long ago and it was the defining period of my life. Loved, LOVED it! Was there for my ex-husband's job and since I didn't have a work visa - it was really a 5 year vacation for me

I took total advantage - into London for the day for shows and shopping, joining the village WI, volunteering at an art co-op in Oxford and traveling whenever and whereever I liked. My husband loved it too and we traveled quite a bit together but I got to do much more.

It was sort of an artificial set up for me - Late 20's-early 30's -- prime work time and I was "at leisure". But I learned so much about myself and other cultures I would not have given it up for anything. It did take be a couple of years to catch up professionally when I got back to the States. But eventually that worked out - and I honestly think the confidence I gained living overseas helped speed up my advancement.

I'd go back to live in the UK in a heartbeat - but of course it could never be the same in different circumstances.

One issue - I do have a sort of 5 year blind spot when it comes to US and hometown culture/events/news. It would be easier now w/ on-line media and such. I felt (and sort of still feel) a bit like Rip van Winkle when it comes to things that happened back home while I was overseas.

I have one friend (and her family) who lived in Germany for three years, and one friend (and her family) who lived in Australia for three years. All I can say is that they both came back changed...for the better, I think.

Just wanted to thank everyone for sharing. What an interesting lot of information.

My advise is geared to people with kids. I have just moved back from the states after living in the UK for a little over 6 years. It was a very hard move back, especially with kids. The older they are the harder it is. Will they survive-- Yes, but it has been a lot of ups and downs. We still have lots of tears. My kids were very young, so for them, they truely have moved to a foreign country.

Well - I'll add my "book" to this VERY appropriate topic!

After 7 years of living overseas (4 years in Egypt and 3 years in Azerbaijan) - we are heading back to the US this summer. We had hoped - and were really expecting - to move to Moscow, but issues have surfaced recently that just makes that move impossible right now.

And because my kids will be in 10th and 11th grades next year - we need to have some guaranteed stability for the next 3 years to get them finished and off to college. That - and aging parents - have led us to our decision to go back to the US. We won't be moving "home" per se - but I'll be within a 5 hour drive or a quick plane ride of my parents, so that is a plus.

We have loved being expats and have tried to take advantage of every opportunity given to us. We have travelled all over as a family and have some really incredible memories from more countries than I can count! In addition, my kids have gone on some fabulous school-related trips - India, Moscow, Tanzania, Jordan, Beijing, Abu Dhabi, Prague & Slovenice, Tblisi (Georgia).

My younger son maintains a list of his favorite pizza places all over the world and my parents quiz him each summer to see if there are any new additions (a pizza "window" in Venice has recently been added to the top group - along with places in Salzburg, Queesntown NZ, and New Orleans).

The school in Cairo was basically an American curriculum with international/Egyptian add-ons. The school here in Baku follows a different curriculum (IB) and took some getting used to. While I'm not thrilled with everything about the program - after 3 years my kids are leaving with great writing and analytical skills, which I just can't complain about.

We have become closer as a family and have learned to adjust to new situations with flexibility and a big sense of humor. We "think" in meters and liters and kilograms and understand bits of Arabic and Russian (my DH is actually quite conversant in Russian). My sons have friends of many different nationalities and IM and email with friends on almost every continent.

But life isn't always easy. As gruezi said - cooking can be a major ordeal. Not being able to find the products you need, having to spend 3 hours going to various markets to HOPE to find something you're looking for, never being sure if the cut of beef you get is going to taste good, learning to live with the reality of "seasons" for fruits and veggies.

Shoot - just finding things is an issue. I once spent 2 weeks in Cairo looking for a SIMPLE pair of black pants for my son. I could find gray, dark navy, black with stripes, black with extra zippers and adornments, etc - but finding a plain pair of pants in his size was more difficult than it should have been. Based on that experience....when I needed to get him a black shirt - I had it made!

Health issues are also a concern - especially here. We've had every imaginable vaccination - but a simple broken bone can be a real issue. Being flown to the UK or Dubai or Vienna for medical treatment is quite common around here. Luckily - the orthodontist is pretty good now (in the past people went to Dubai for monthly appointments).

But - we do miss our friends and family back it the US. We LOVE being there in the summers and shopping and enjoying all the good "comfort" foods. My mom knows how to stock the refridgerator for us. For the kids - Red Baron pizza, SunnyDelight, and orange sherbert. For me - Kendall Jackson Chardonnay and a Sara Lee coffeecake!

I meant to add that although schools are good in the UK (or any other country), the curriculum is different. We attended both private and state schools while there. My son came back in the 7th grade and he is lost. He was always in the top math class in England, but did not test as well in math in the states. I am not worried about his ability, but he just has not learned the same material. So even moving in the middle school years can impact their high school years.

I loved the UK and we are dual citizens now, so we can always go back. I would tell anyone to jump at any chance to experience another country, but throw caution to the wind when it comes to children. Just consider their personality and their age when moving and returning, especially if they will not be in a school that does not offer an american curriculum.

I've found this thread so interesting - I also really appreciate those of you who took the time to write about your experiences. I am about to be an expat (although just for a year) - I am from the US and my husband is due to start a year-long sabbatical in Amsterdam, beginning in August.

I will be the "trailing spouse" and will not have a work visa, so that will be an adjustment for me. Our kids are in college, so the adjustment of children isn't an issue for us. Actually our youngest child will be doing her junior year abroad in Paris at the same time we're in Amsterdam, so I am looking forward to visiting back and forth occasionally - it's only 4 hours or so by train.

I grew up as an Air Force kid, so spent most of my childhood moving around. I lived in Tokyo for a few years - so have had a small taste of a kind of expat life there and of course it was a much bigger cultural difference for an American than western Europe.

I'll tell you my preconceptions of the upcoming year and we'll see if they turn out to be correct or not: I'm expecting the adjustment to Amsterdam to not be tremendously hard in terms of cultural differences. And so many Dutch speak English well that I'm thinking that my lack of expertise in the local language may not be as crippling as it would be some places. When my husband made a preliminary trip to the university lab he will be doing research in there, he said he encountered absolutely NO language barrier. Except with a Scottish guy in the lab. Said he couldn't understand a word he said. ;->

To be perfectly honest, I'm looking forward to it except for one worry. This will sound amazingly shallow-Californian I'm sure, but I'm really worried about the weather there. I've looked at an expat site (expatica.com) - NoleNomad you might find it interesting, they have different sections for expats in different European countries - and a lot of people on that site, especially ones from warmer sunnier places, complain about the weather in Amsterdam. When I've lived in gray rainy climates before I've found it very depressing - I wish I wasn't the kind of person so affected by that, but I am. So I've told DH I just might be wintering in Greece while he works in Amsterdam ... (just kidding)

NorCal - doesn't sound shallow to this Southern California gal.

I will be anxious to hear about your time there and admit I think even with the weather it sounds fabulous!

I tried to get dh to apply for jobs with Chase that would require a move over the pond.

He spent years in the Navy in his twenties and says he loves the good ole USA soil. After being gone for a few years he was so happy to be back "home". So no go.

Please keep us posted!

Thanks MomDD - I do want to be clear I am very grateful for the opportunity and really looking forward to it - I certainly think Amsterdam will have many wonderful experiences and the weather is hardly what the whole trip will be about (I was just being honest about the fact that I know I am prone to being adversely affected emotionally by low sunshine levels and while coping with that change, being in a new place with no job and no friends does give me pause).

I will look forward to keeping you posted ...

I get the weather thing. We talk about moving back East and it is a major concern.

I think Greece sounded good

NorCalif: I actually prefer much of the weather in the UK to parts of the year here in NorCal. Spring and fall are wonderful here - but w/ 102º already here in Sac - the 66º in London sounds WONDERFUL to me. Should not have to use a/c in May fer cryin out loud! And our winter Tule fog in the Valley gets really depressing.

I loved having real seasons for the first time in my life. Winter will take some getting used to - especially w/ the very short daylight hours and cold. But the loooooong summer daylight helps make up for that a bit.

just a note that I forgot to add to my little book a few posts up....

There is a great book called "Third Culture Kids." I would love to tell you the author - but the book is already packed up! The author actually came to our school in Cairo and spoke to the parents. It was fascinating.

I highly recommend this book for anyone thinking of moving overseas with kids. It gives a lot of pros/cons and lots of real-life stories.

janisj, I spent a few years in Fresno, back in the early '80's, and boy, do I remember the heat. Every time I visit Vegas, memories of the San Joaquin Valley came back to me.

NorCalif, certainly the weather will affect you. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, so when I visit the U.K., I feel more comfortable than some other Americans might. But the first time I visited Amsterdam, it was hot! It was in the 80's, everyone was out relaxing at the cafes, and I was wearing jeans. (Hey, I was headed to the U.K. next...how did I know Amsterdam would have a heat wave?)

NorCalif, have a fine, fine time living in Amsterdam for the next year. Keep us posted on what you miss, and what you learn. What an adventure!

A couple of thoughts:

1) I think there is a huge difference in being an ex-pat and having a job where you travel all the time. In the first instance, you have a home base. In the second instance, I think you tend to get disconnected. And I'm not sure it is easier when you are young, as it can inhibit the growth of relationships and strain ones you already have.

And, assuming you are speaking of a job like consulting when you mention a job with a lot of travel, bear in mind that you don't always get to choose your assignments. And there are a lot of less-than-glamorous locales you might end up in. One tends to get sold on the idea of jetting to London for a few weeks/months, when the reality may end up being a long-term assignment in Columbus, Ohio.


2) The ex-pat experience can also differ, depending upon your company. Some companies have more generous packages than others. You may find it a financial bonanza or you might find it tough to afford the type of lifestyle you might want or have become used to.

And it is likely much, much tougher to do this on your own. The amount of support many companies offer is staggering. School tuition. Real Estate agents. Language classes. Professional tax help. Having professional help with this stuff can be huge.

When I first moved to Europe, I loved it and thought I'd never leave. The longer I'm away from the US, however, the more I miss it. We'll probably go back in a few years.

Thanks everyone for bearing with my long post. And thanks for all the experiences you've all shared - I have really enjoyed this thread. Thanks NoleNomad! I often wish we had an ex-pat board on Fodor's...

Just wanted to say the "Third Culture Kids" author is Robin Pascoe. She has written another excellent book called "The Moveable Marriage" which I highly recommend for the trailing spouse. Also, great for teenagers is "We're Moving Where?" by Ben Voegele. This is a quick, easy book and great for first time movers.

NorCal - The weather in Zurich is grey, grey, grey and yes it brings out the SAD. I have heard Amsterdam is worse, so do plan your travels to Italy and such for some sunshine! You might even get some lamps to help out. You will have a wonderful year I'm sure. Travel a lot, there is an American Women's Club in Amsterdam so join it right away for those lonely times when you just need to talk to someone. I love Amsterdam and wished we could move there for a bit. The culture is friendlier and the food better than Zurich, IMO. Enjoy every minute...don't worry about the days you feel you got nothing done. That is all part of the experience. Get to Keukenhof and tell us all about it!


Regarding Schooling - from my experience...

It will be different! You will respect your child's present education more when you move from the US. I'm glad my kids got the basics in one school system and we moved when they were a bit older. It is tricky coming back when there are gaps in their knowledge particularly in Math and Science. The International Baccalaureate (IB) does do a great job with writing skills, but the other parts of the curriculum are very different. If you can, move your kids for the entire high school years. They can apply to top US Universities with a European education with no problem. It's the transition back into a US high school that can be tough and may set them behind their more competitive peers. Plus, in international schools, lots of kids are new, it's very normal to move every few years, and your child will not stick out. In the return to the US, they may be the only new kid.

You will have to be more proactive and involved about your child's testing, extracurricular activities, and college applications should you decide to apply from Europe to the US Universities. (We are doing that now.) But, you will miss about 80% of the insane college hype and that is wonderful for your child and for you

Yes, it is tricky moving teenagers. There were A LOT of tears. But I will say it's worked out for us. Plus, I feel it has been such a gift to have this time with my 17-year-old before she goes to college. We do a lot together, and I know if we were in the US I would barely be seeing her. Plus, with the lower drinking age, your child can figure out the whole drinking thing legally, without the driving as the driving age is higher here, and with you around to help them experiment in a healthy way. OTOH, drinking starts in about 8th grade for some kids so thats the other side of the coin...

Thanks again everyone for your stories! If anyone has questions or needs support, I'm happy to help.

gruezi

NorCalif, like gruezi, I immediately thought of seasonal affective disorder (SAD) when I read your concerns about grey, rainy weather.

It is a real issue for some people living in northern latitudes or in climates with prolonged periods of dense cloud cover. You can read a bit more about it in wikipedia.

Light therapy is a recognized treatment. This firm manufactures light boxes designed to treat SAD:

www.northernlighttechnologies.com

I use one of their lights from late October and late February every year. It doesn't eliminate all symptoms (I still experience a drop in energy), but it sure helps.

Good luck with your move to Amsterdam.

Anselm

Although you can't take away the gray skies, you can still enjoy any weather as there is no such thing as bad weather just bad clothing. A fantastic lesson learned by fellow englishmen!

Attitude is the key to adjustment anywhere.

It is tricky coming back when there are gaps in their knowledge particularly in Math and Science. The International Baccalaureate (IB) does do a great job with writing skills, but the other parts of the curriculum are very different.

This pretty much sums up the differences between the European (or maybe, more precisely, British?) and US systems, in my estimation. Math and Science seems to be tossed aside at an earlier age, except for those that are going to actively pursue it. Even at the university level in the UK, I found many subjects like Economics and Political Science to place much less emphasis on mathematical methods than in the US.

This has been such an interesting thread! I'm two months into an 8 month assignment in London right now, so I can definitely relate to the "honeymoon" comments made above. I'll probably have the opportunity to stay permanently if I wish, and I'm very on the fence about it. The above insights are quite interesting!

travel gourmet--could you explain more the difference between math and science between europe and U.S. Do you mean there is less emphasize on these subjects in U.S. or in Europe?

I'll try to address the math/science classes - at least from an IB program viewpoint (since IB programs are becoming more and more common in internationally-oriented schools).

My boys are in the US equivalent of 9th and 10th grades, which in the International Baccalaureate curriculum corresponds to the last 2 years of the "Middle Years Program."

Science -
While different schools do slightly different things, the science taught in those 2 years is often a combination of Physics, Chemistry, and Biology (sometimes Environmental Science is included). In our case, my sons take 1 term (trimester) of each science. Over the course of 2 years - altho they have only had 2 terms (trimesters) of each science - they have covered about 85-90% of what is covered in most general high school Biol, Chem, and Phys classes (NOT including AP type classes).

IF we were to continue in the IB Diploma program (11, 12th grades), then my older son would have chosen to continue with Phys and Chem, each of which he would have studied for 2 years.

Note - this is for the IB curriculum. My (limited) understanding of the UK curriculum is that this is a similar sequence taken by kids of this age (15, 16) and then they take the GSCE tests in these areas. If a student was not interested in sciences (or didn't show an aptitude for it) - no further science study would be required for the A or O levels (that's the part that really confuses me - so please forgive me if I don't that exactly right!).

Transferring back to the US system, my older son will receive credit for all 3 sciences, then he will go on to take AP Physics and AP Chemistry. My younger son, however, will only receive credit for an "Integrated Physics/Chemistry" class and he will have to take a full year of Biol, Chem, and Phys. He kinda gets messed up in this area because he didn't finish the 2 year sequence, but when he takes the courses a lot of the material will be familiar to him, so that's a plus.

Math -
The IB program and the UK curriculum teaches math in an integrated way - meaning that various topics from Alg I, Alg II, Geom, Trig (and later Pre-Calc) are all mixed up.....as opposed to the yearly sequencing most US schools do (Alg I, then Geom, then Alg, II, then pre-Calc, etc). In the IB program, my sons would have had to choose a level of math (there are several different levels depending on ability) to continue for 2 years.

Both my sons are in the "Extended" (advanced) math classes. Technically, my older son has covered the majority (but not all) of the topics taught in US pre-Calc classes. Similarly, he has had most of the topics covered in Alg I, Alg II, and Geom/Trig. While he "could" go on to a Calculus class, we will most likely have him take a pre-Calc class. This will give him a good review/mastery of the topics he has already had and allow him to "catch up" on the topics he missed and then go on to Calc. Similarly, my younger son "could" go into an pre-Calc course, but we are probably going to have him go into an Alg II course - to get the same review/master and catch up.

I am not going to say that one system is better than the other. They are different. However, problems arise when trying to transfer from one system to the other. It can be done, and sometimes it works out great (as with my older son and the sciences) and sometimes it works out not-so-great (as with my younger son and the sciences).

Does that make sense?????

I think they meant that Europeans place less emphasis on Science and Math. I was educated in Eastern Europe for 10 school years (before the fall of communism), and then starting at the age of 16, here in NYC. I teach Chemistry at the IB level and I am familiar with the prescribed curriculum. Our (NYC) kids are struggling with it since they do not have a good background or any background in it. For example, the first time they ever take Chemistry is in the 10th grade, followed by IB Chem. What I liked about Europe in that sense was the idea of integrated MYP Science, allowing some concepts to be learned in earlier grades and hopefully sediment in time.

From my perspective, the difference is that students in the British system seem to specialize in their subjects a bit earlier. In many (most?) US universities, every student is expected to take math up through calculus. This may apply, regardless of even if you are studying History or English Lit. Perhaps this has led to more aggressive introduction of mathematical modeling into other subjects?

Indeed, it is rare that a US applicant to a top-tier school in the US would not have taken calculus to some degree, while in high school, again, even if they had only limited interest in math. My understanding is that the UK system specializes earlier than this.

And again, at the university level, mathematical methods are used much more in the social sciences in the US than in the UK. Economics in the US, in particular, can be very math focused - many econ majors at my university dual-majored with math, and I took a full year of calculus, a course in differential equations and matrix algebra, statistics, and econometrics. As I struggled with the math side more than the writing and analytical side, I preferred my time in the UK. Political science in the US also places more emphasis on mathematical modeling (particularly econometric modeling and game theory), drawing a lot of inspiration from economics.

It makes sense to move upon completion of the MYP program, at the end of 10th grade, then start the DP (Diploma Program) in a different place.

MilenaM - I wish we could have our boys continuing in the IB program, and had we gone to Moscow (as we had planned) it would have worked out. As it is, my boys will be back in a regular US public school - altho a very top rated one. They will be taking AP instead of IB classes. However, I know that the skills they have acquired thru the MYP will serve them well.

And with our MYP program, fundamental Phys, Biol, and Chem at taught in the first 3 years (6,7,8th grades) and then fully taught in the last 2 years (9th and 10th). So my boys have a pretty solid background. And since both my DH and I have science degrees - that is important to us!

Grcxx3, I am sure your boys will have benefited from being educated abroad. It does turn out that they have a better science background than they could ever have here, having taken all 3 sciences earlier on.

Our education experience...

I have children in 2 different international schools in Zurich - one is in an IB program and one in an "AP" program. We find the science programs at both schools much more watered down than what we had in the US. I will say we came from a very highly rated school system, so perhaps our comparison would not apply everywhere.

Overall, I'd say things are just different. Some things are better, others are not IMO. I completely disagree with those that claim the US program is not as strong. My children have done really well here, and are often asked what school they came from by their new teachers...

Regarding science, my oldest daughter (AP) just took a practice SAT II for Chemistry after a full year of getting an 'A' in "pre-AP Chemistry" at her international school. She only got a discouraging 20 problems right out of 100. I admit I was a bit shocked!

My other daughter (IB) does a lot of interesting projects in her science course, but there is no text book and there is no set curriculum. She has studied energy, and glacierization, and (funnily) a lot about in vitro fertilization, but I see huge gaps since I know what my other daughter did at this age. In the US she would have completed a full year of Earth Science and be heading into Physics as a 9th grader. She is definitely not ready for that.

OTOH, all the projects for the IB require a lot of writing. So, I think my younger daughter has grown a lot in that area as she was always a bit weak there.

My oldest is a lot less stressed here than she was in the US. She is in a much smaller school, her teachers really know her and look out after her. There is much less talk about colleges and SATs and more of a focus on loving to learn. European kids and their parents just seem a lot more laid back about the whole college application process.

Grading here is much tougher (in both schools) and my daughter likes to joke that her school actually practices "grade deflation" as her teachers really hate to give out any A's. She gets frustrated, as her GPA has slipped, but she really loves her teachers. I'm always writing notes to school to thank someone for something nice they've said to her just when it was most needed.

I agree that living in another country augments your education in ways that cannot be measured. That is what I try to focus on when I see some gaps here or there in the formal education process. In the end, I would make the same decision to move here all over again despite the educational challenges.

<<In the US she would have completed a full year of Earth Science and be heading into Physics as a 9th grader. >>

So the Earth Science class is for 8th graders? That's great - no matter what grade! As a geologist, I find it appalling that schools do not regularly teach Earth Science - it really does a great job of bringing the concepts of Chem, Phys, and Biol all together.

In addition to AP Phys and Chem, my older son plans on taking a course on Meteorology/Geology/Oceanography - the closest that the district we're going into has to a Geology course.

I understand your frustration about the lack of textbooks for your IB daughter. Many people in the primary grades at our school complain about the same thing. But it's not so bad at the middle school level.

In the 6-8th grades my kids had a series of science books from the UK that I really hated. The material they covered was fine - but the books were the pits. As a result, the teachers used the texts as a "base" and added alot of supplementary material. The texts that the boys are using now (9,10th grades) are GSCE texts for Chem, Phys, and Biol and I am actually quite impressed with the level of detail that the books go into.

For math, they mainly use US Alg I, Alg II, Geom, and pre-Calc texts - with a couple of UK texts on occasion.

>European kids and their parents just seem a lot more laid back about the whole college application process.

I can´t speak for all "European" kids but the difference between the most and the least prestigious universities is much smaller in Germany and Switzerland. It is not nearly as hard to get a place at a top university (depending on subject it can vary as well) - you don´t have to jump through a million hoops. In fact, some top universities accept practically every applicant and then thin out the herd (by quite brutal methods - exams with 90% failing grades and such). But until you are there you can afford to be laid back.

So the Earth Science class is for 8th graders? That's great - no matter what grade!

If I recall correctly, the standard progression in the US is:

7th - Life Science (Biology lite)
8th - Earth Science
9th - Physical Science (Chem + Physics lite)
10th - Biology
11th - Chemistry
12th - Physics

Physics is not usually obligatory, but is usually required or highly recommended for admission to a better university.

One couldn't really call her an expat, but my neice lived and worked in London a few years ago for 6 months and just loved it and then a couple years later she lived in Copenhagen for a year, going to school.

They were both wonderful experiences and she was so excitied to go, but at the same time, she was even more excited to come home to the US. I think it had more to do with missing friends and food.

I went to London and Copenhagen with her parents to visit her and they took a ton of food over to her. Crackers, cake mixes, peanut butter, ranch dressing etc. Some of those things were available to her but very expensive.

My nephew travled the world for about six years, staying the longest time in Ireland, Australia, and Greece. He loved it, but came back to the states to finally finish school. He and his wife had thought at one time of trying to work and live overseas but things have changed and they will probably stay in the states, at least for the time being.

Any aching is a kind of nostalgia. My USA has changed. Older friends are gone. Businesses have been sold. My doctor is retired. Now I view The USA as a wonderful vacation destination.

What a great thread! I'm happy to see all the expats (past, present and future) coming out of the woodwork. I have my own story to tell, so please forgive me if this gets long-winded.

My husband and I returned to the USA in December after 2.5 years in Stuttgart. We are in our early 30s with a dog and cat but no kids, so this was an ideal time to take the expat plunge. I left a high-stress career as the director of a small non-profit and was absolutely thrilled at the prospect of living in Europe, traveling, and fully embracing the role of "hausfrau" (obviously I wouldn't have adopted it as my screen name if I wasn't proud of it!).

My husband's career in the auto industry brought us to Stuttgart, and we enjoyed a very attractive expat package that included furniture, COLA, and transportation stipends, plus his company took care of all of the relocation paperwork, finding our apartment, and did our taxes every year. We actually found it less expensive to live in Germany than in the U.S. (although I should point out that we were maintaining our home in the U.S. at the same time) because we didn't have home maintenance costs and didn't buy a lot of "stuff", as we knew our move was temporary. We ended up having extra money left over for traveling, which is exactly what we did.

We had a wonderful experience in Stuttgart and don't regret our decision for a second. I would say the biggest challenge for both of us was the language. While many of my husband's colleagues spoke excellent English, his work environment was largely in German, so he had to learn extremely quickly. I studied French extensively in high school and college, and that experience helped a lot in learning a second foreign language. I took German lessons the entire time, and could get along in conversational German by the end, but it was never easy. Stuttgart is not a tourist destination and we were on the outskirts of the city, where very few people would voluntarily speak English (even though their English was usually better than my German!). Nevertheless, we embraced the language challenge with a good sense of humor and managed to survive relatively unscathed.

As the "trailing spouse" (don't you love that phrase?), what was most important for me was not just wanting to live in a foreign country, but looking forward to the "me" time. I had a lot of pent-up energy and ideas that I hadn't had time to pursue in my old job. I knew a couple of expat wives who came over assuming they were going to be bored to death, and they were doomed right from the get-go. I'm not kidding: this kind of situation can ruin a marriage. I took long walks and jogs in the woods with my dog every day, wrote and read extensively, studied German, cooked and planned trips to my heart's content, and enjoyed exploring the local area on my own. After about 8 months I discovered the International Women's Club of Stuttgart. The group consists of a diverse mix of Americans, Germans, and other nationalities (80+ members all-told) and has a regular schedule of meetings, dinners, tours, and other outings, along with activities especially for moms with kids. I made lifelong friends through the IWC, and leaving them was the toughest part about returning to the States.

I knew plenty of expat couples with children and they almost all seemed to get along very well, regardless of age. At the younger end most people I know put their kids in German kindergarten, which really gives them a leg up on the language and making friends. I would love to be able to give my kids such an experience in the future.

Honestly, if it had made sense financially and for my husband's career, we might very well have stayed in Germany. There was so much to love: the city and the country, the transportation system, the environmentally-minded lifestyle, the history and culture, the opportunities for travel - we tried to take advantage of it all in the short time we had available. We did miss having our own single-family house and yard, both rare luxuries in Germany. Our family all live on the other side of the country, so coming back to the States didn't really make a difference in that regard. I certainly missed my friends in the U.S., but most of them are still working while I have made the choice to stay home to have our first baby, so staying in close contact has proven difficult. If it weren't for our impending arrival, I think I would have found myself a bit lost upon our return.

Very little seems to have changed and sometimes I feel like we never left, that Germany is just a pleasant dream. But then I look at my thousands of pictures and hundreds of pages of journals documenting the experience, and it all comes flooding back.

If you love travel, language, culture, have a good sense of humor and a taste for adventure, and are given an opportunity to live abroad, I say go for it!

As a school counselor, this thread is really interesting for me. My husband is a teacher and we've seriously considered going the teaching abroad route. If I hadn't landed my dream job last summer, I think we could've had a placement at this time. For now, we're staying where we are, but haven't abandoned the idea completely. It is encouraging to see people who have done it with kids, as it that is one of our fears.

The conversation about curriculum is also fascinating. I currently work at a math/science/technology magnet high school and we have a good number of American students who transfer in from international schools. Their previous credits seem to fit in very well with our offerings across the board, but I imagine it is not that way at all school.

This really is an amazing thread.
Grcxx3 -- I'm glad that you found this because I was hoping that you would shed light on living in such exciting countries with children. Do you think "compounds" are the best and safest way? Do you think you can really experience a country if you're living that removed from it? If a country is so "dangerous" to live in normally, is it a good idea to live there if you have to live "walled in?" Inconvenience I think I can handle but I worry about when it crosses the line into unsafe. My husband's job could take us to some out of the way places. The adventure of it really excites us, but I need to make sure that my son is safe. I hope this isn't too personal for an internet forum, but your experiences sound so exciting I just want to hear about them all!

All of the information that everyone provided about different school systems is overwhelming. Thank you, everyone. I know I should concentrate on potty training now but I can't help but look down the road . . . so much to think about!

Interesting thread, no doubt. Schuler and Travelgourmet's posts are specially interesting to me. Shall we say knowing a people or two in the expat category (A third of my neighbors in my little cosmopolitan town fall in this category), I have a theory which is that after 4-5 years you become so immersed in the foreign culture that you stop noticing the newness of it (that's when you become a simple Pat instead of an Expat ). You will obviously admire the good things but you also begin to notice the oddities (that, ofcourse, you will never want to call yours ). And, individual mileages vary. Some of us are hopeless romantics and tend to see what we want to see. Then again, some of us may land in places like BKP describes and that, seriously, doesn't sound like fun!

So the message, if there is one, is to perhaps explore to your heart's content during the honeymoon phase of expat life but then quickly move on while you can still count it as a blessing Or may be not. Who knows.

<<From my perspective, the difference is that students in the British system seem to specialize in their subjects a bit earlier>>

Its been 20 years since I left university but that is how it used to be, I think there are UK schools and education authorities who are looking more closely at introducing a more IB style curriculum.

The system basically worked like this for me.

At 13 years old you decide if you want to continue with French, as it is mandatory up to this age, and any .

At 14 years old you had to decide what 8 subjects you wanted to take at O'Level (GCSE). Maths, Physics (for boys), English, Religious & Physical Education were mandatory. School started at 9.00am and finished at 4.00pm and is referred to as High School, and blazer, shirt and tie were mandatory.

At 16 years old, after your O'levels exams you then decide on around 3 subjects to study at A'level (depends on your previous exam results). There are no mandatory subjects and school started at 9am and finished at 4.45pm. We called it 6th form college but different schools call it different things i.e upper school etc. No uniform required

Due to the long days and few subjects, you really studied each subject in depth. In fact I studied Economics at A'level and went onto study it at University and for the first 2 years I didn't need to attend any macro or micro economic lecture as I'd already done it. It wasn't all easy as there was a mandatory applied maths and statistics course in the first year and as I didn't take A'Level Maths, then this required my attention. In each year of uni you chose 4 courses from a choice of 12.

Geordie

Very, very interesting responses and lots of food for thought. Thanks to all.

Someone here mentioned it, but how about health care? How would you expats compare accessibility and quality of health care to that in the states? Health care differences should probably be a thread unto itself, but I feel it's appropriate to include here. Thanks again.

NoleNomad -

With respect to healthcare - for us it is very spotty.

In Egypt, we had a company run clinic with 3 nurses who were available 24/7. There were doctors available at certain times as well. The nurses "scoped out" the various other doctors/dentists in the area and created an "approved" list. We got all our immunizations at the clinic (no cost) and could go there for minor issues (cuts, flu shots, etc.).

When my MIL was visiting, she fell and broke her leg and the nurses were spectacular - providing us with a van and going with us for the x-rays and MRIs, going downtown to pick up the leg-brace she needed, and coming to our flat to give her blood-thinning shots before she flew home. We even had a "house call" from one of the top orthopedic specialists in Cairo - for a total cost of $30!!!!

I had several friends who had emergency surgery there (everything from a shattered elbow to a c-section to appendectomies) and while the food was lousy and the accommodations were sparse -the treatment was just dandy.

Here in Azerbaijan - I get nervous every time my DS goes out on his skateboard. A serious broken bone means a medical evacuation to the UK. We were lucky that the broken wrist he had in January was a very simple, clean break and we were able to take care of it here. Anything out of the ordinary requires leaving the country for treatment. No one has surgery or any type of invasive procedure here. A lot of people even go to Dubai for their kids' orthodontic treatments.

With regard to healthcare... I caught a lot of heat for saying this before, but the Danish and UK systems, are likely "worse" than the American system IF you have good health insurance. I would assume that most ex-Pats had good insurance in the US.

Specialists are harder to find. Scheduling is a chore, and all the little things are more of a hassle. Prescriptions are more expensive. And it just doesn't seem as "state of the art".

Before anyone takes this to be an endorsement of the US system, writ large, it isn't. It is merely a statement that, for a subset of the US population with good health insurance, switching to a European system may result in a step down in convenience, accessibility, and perceived quality. It may even result in an increase in out-of-pocket expenses.

Education. Imagine a world where apprenticeships are just as respected as university degrees.

I cannot speak about international schools in Switzerland because my kids attend local schools. However, I can try to convey the whole idea about academic schooling vs. apprenticeships here in Switzerland.

When I came to Switzerland in the beg. 80's, most young Swiss chose to do apprenticeships. They were very proud of their crafts. Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, salesmen, etc. were highly respected professions. The need to aquire a university degree wasn't deemed important.

Nowadays, with globalism and the opening of borders, the need for a university degree has increased immensely. Suddenly, many people feel their children aren't adequately schooled if they don't attend a university. Switzerland is trying to find a balance between offering high quality university studies and still giving due respect to trade professions.

Having graduated with a BA in the US, I've come to acknowledge that apprentices are more ready to become real workers than most university graduates. High quality craftsmanship is just as important to the community as academic degrees. Unfortunately, in the US, university graduates are usually more respected than the local tradesman who offers high quality work. I've never understood that way of thinking. Is it because we assume university graduates will make more money? I don't know.

Not everyone is made for academic studies. Switzerland's education has allowed realistic career opportunities for blue and white collar workers. I hope it doesn't change too much.

Re: Healthcare...

I second what tgourmet said about the UK. In fact, in the medical world, England is well-known for the issues she describes. For example, my friends daughter at 14 suddenly started having seizures. She was told it would be a 6 month wait to see a neurologist. She flew her home to the US...Socialized medicine is not the complete answer to healthcare. The husband of a British woman I know here in Switzerland developed kidney cancer. She said she was so thankful to be here instead of in England as she knew he was getting much better care.

So far, in Switzerland I am very pleased with the healthcare.

I had to have double breast biopsies here and it was a breeze - my gynecologist did the sonogram and the biopsies right in his office and there were no referrals or calls to insurance or anything. I could have chosen to go back home where they have been monitoring me with MRIs. I did that last summer and had to go to 4 different offices over 2 weeks - one for the sonogram, one for the bloodwork, one for the referral, and then the actual MRI. Pretty much ruined my whole "vacation" only to be told I needed to repeat the whole thing in 6 months.

Funny cultural thing - he thought it amusing that we are given a gown in the US for our exams...I just popped out of the changing room naked from the waist up! There was no female attendant in the room for any part of my exam or biopsy.

Interestingly, they don't start mammograms in Switzerland until 50 as they think there are too many false positives. I had my first mammogram at 38 in the US. As an oncology nurse, I guess I think early mammograms save more lives, so I'm glad we start earlier but perhaps that's why our medical costs are so high. We do a lot more to avoid the statistical outliers - ie. early breast cancers etc.

Another difference, when you enter an empty waiting room in the US you immediately suspect the doctor isn't very good. It is normal here to have the waiting room to yourself. My first visit with this gyn. lasted an hour! I've never gotten more than 12 minutes at home.

My daughter has a wonderful pediatrician here too. At my request he gave us all our encephalitis and flu shots to keep it simple. Back home my pediatrician (who I love) never would do things like that...too complicated with insurance and frankly she was probably just too busy.


g.

>>> Do you think you can really experience a country if you're living that removed from it? If a country is so "dangerous" to live in normally, is it a good idea to live there if you have to live "walled in?"<<<

Sorry, but I cannot understand which country would that be? I can imagine that there are some Sout American countries where some people live like that. Also in South Africa there are some no-go areas, but that is just about it.

elina: My understanding is that "compound" living is pretty common for ex-pats in a lot of countries. Virtually all of Africa, certainly. Most of Latin America. Much of the Middle East. Not sure about Asia. But, I think it is more common than you are perhaps giving credit for.

Even in Europe, I think you see some ex-pat clusters, often centered around the International or American school.

I have also found that families that move to Asia say they live in what is referred to tongue-in-cheek as an ex-pat ghetto...

We chose to live "on the other side of the lake" here in Zurich away from all the families here with the same company. There are a couple of towns where a lot of ex-pat families do cluster, although it is not like living in the Middle East or Africa where it's a compound. I don't mix business with social at home and didn't want to here... I have probably been lonelier sometimes as a result, but I am overall happy with the decision.

g.

I know there are those clusters also in Europe, but are they "walled in"? And isn´t it because of choice, not because they have to live like that?

I saw one in The Azores, on that island where a US military base is. Some local said that people there have their own shops and some don´t even leave the compound, everything they need is inside there. Which I thought quite funny. On a little island where there is hardly any crime. And where I had PAYED to go to experience nice hiking in nature and whale-watching. And of course local food and way of living.

okay - compounds vs non-compounds... I've done both.

In Cairo, no one lived in a compound. I don't think there is one. There are expats throughout the city, but a lot of people (especially with kids) live in an area called Ma'adi (a suburb of Cairo) because that is where the American and British schools are. There are older and newer apartment buildings and older and newer villas.

We lived in a new apartment building right by the school. Everything was within walking distance - altho I used a taxi occasionally when I had a lot to do or the weather was too hot. The kids walked to school. We walked to the orthodontist. We could walk or quickly drive to restaurants and stores. My husband drove to work, but it was only a 5 minute drive. Going into the city during the day - we usually drove ourselves. If we were going to dinner or a ball or something - we would hire a driver.

Most - if not all - of the apartments and villas were owned by well-to-do Egyptians. Some lived in their own apartments in the buildings. Others didn't. Basically, many of the buildings were a mix of expats (of every nationality imaginable) and wealthy Egyptians.

Here in Azerbaijan - we are in a compound....sorta. We live in a gated subdivision about 15 minutes from the city center and about 7 minutes from the nearest market. The larger international school is in the subdivision, which has about 110 houses. Most of the houses are leased by our company, but there are a few other companies and some US Embassy families as well. As far as I know - there are 5 Azeri families living here (all quite wealthy).

HOWEVER, the ONLY reason we are living in this area is because of the kids/school. Many of our friends who have no kids or whose kids are grown live in apartment buildings closer to town. Beautiful views of the Caspian Sea and walking distance to restaurants, pubs, shops, etc. Some even live in apartments in the Old City (think of living in the French Quarter of New Orleans). That would be outstanding for us - but not workable with the kids.

Because the traffic and roads and parking are so bad, we don't go into town as often as we would like - but I'm still down there at least once a week.

So - while we are in a a sorta/kinda compound - we aren't required to be. In actual fact, I find the security here "iffy!" We were only here 3 months when our house was robbed. Never had that problem in Cairo!!!!

re-thinking.....we really aren't in a "compound" here - not like the compounds you have in Saudi. But we are definitely in a "set apart" location.

BKP and elina,

"is it a good idea to live there if you have to be walled in"

Living in a foreign country is very different than being on vacation in one. What seems great for one week can get old for a couple of years. Also, it is great to experience the culture you are living in, but that doesn't mean you are suddenly going to become Islam just because you move to UAE...or Swiss because you live in Switzerland, etc. etc.

The idea of a "compound" happens in countries where language and customs would make daily life too challenging for ex-pat families who are usually in the situation for corporate or embassy jobs and for a couple years at a time. (Not long enough to learn Chinese or Arabic or Japanese etc.)

You have to have a strong marriage to make these moves and every day is not a fairy tale. A grocery with foods you recognize, and neighbors who are welcoming, are the little things that can make your life more pleasant. You can always explore your host country and it's culture when you're up to it. But if your child is sick, your husband is traveling, your refrigerator is really small, you don't speak the language, and maybe it's not safe or easy to drive alone, some days it is nice to have the local grocery and a few understanding neighbors.

This is the attraction and necessity of "compounds" or perhaps "neighborhoods". It doesn't mean things are necessarily any more dangerous than living in any US urban area, just that life is in general a bit more challenging.

g.

<<life is in general a bit more challenging>>

Life in general can be a LOT more challenging!!!

Thank you so much for your thoughts on "compounds." The idea of one doesn't really appeal to us. But safety is always our number one priority. I do think that birds of a feather flock together and I understand that desire. I like the idea of living close to the flock, but not all in the same nest!

gruezi -- I especially appreciated your too small fridge comment! My husband has traveled and my son has been sick -- but it's amazing how absolutely frustrating it is to not be able to fit all of our groceries in the mini fridge!

Yep. EU refrigerators are just too small. Major hassle.

Grcxx,



I bet you and I could have fun over a big tall drink!! I've been craving a mojito for weeks now. I actually drooled over the mojito thread...

Well, I am completely in awe of you and your particular moves as mine has really been relatively easy - even though we do have our days!

Culture shock here is not like culture shock where you have lived. In fact, it took me a long time to even admit I was experiencing culture shock because it was really pretty subtle...and frankly my shock was more about the international community as opposed to the Swiss community. My husband is pretty sure I was Swiss in a past life as I fit in pretty well here!! (He, on the other hand, really struggles with the rules and procedures and calendars and being on time thing.)

I hope you will post back with your joys and frustrations of re-patriation. I already feel, after just 15 months, that it will be another adjustment going "home." Friendships and such don't take that long to change much to our surprise. I hope you have some good support as you head back.

And, I wish your whole family a smooth move!! When do you go?

gruezi

gruezi - you could join me and melnq8, another expat living in Indonesia and getting ready to head to Australia! We could have fun over SEVERAL drinks!!!

We head out about June 23. I've got most of the house packed, but the boys don't finish school until June 20. We are, however, taking them out for a week for a final family vacation in Prague.

Everyone thinks we should be so "happy" to be moving back to the US - and in many ways we are. But it is going to be a difficult adjustment for all of us. On the other hand - my boys are really looking forward to REAL milk (not the boxed, long-life milk we've had the past 7 years) and I'm looking forward to NOT DREADING cooking dinner every night. The thought of going to a grocery store and being able to find all the things I want (and MORE) is just overwhelming!!!!

That first trip to the store is going to be a doozy!!!!!!!

Elina, sometimes compounds are essentially the only viable living option for expats. When we lived in Liberia, for example, we had no choice but to live in the Lamco compound--it provided the only housing with reliable electricity, to say nothing of the security issues.
Ditto for the compound in the mountain regions. Of course, we did get out and about a bit...the only decent restaurant up in the mountains happen to be in the busiest brothel.

In Brussels, anglophone expats do tend to bunch themselves up in certain areas...for Americans, out in Waterloo or RSG. For Brits, Tervuren or the Chatelain part of Ixelles. Proximity to schools is one of the main reasons. Those who live in Tervuren and Waterloo do tend to interact primarily with each other. Those in the Ixelles part of town are more mixed--some do, some don't.

As we didn't have kids and preferred not to live in an expat oriented area, we lived in St. Gilles and the Woluwes.

It is surprising to see how many Brits in Brussels socialize almost exclusively at the various Irish pubs around town (especially the men, it's their wives or girlfriends who occasionally manage to drag them off to a cafe or restaurant that doesn't cater primarily to English speaking expats).

May I suggest this welcome home menu?

Lunch:

Ceasar Salad with grilled shrimp

Bottomless Glass of Brewed Iced Tea with lots and lots of Ice and lemons


Dinner:

Cheeseburger with the works

Toll House Chocolate Chip Cookies



and later...in front of a long night of American TV:

Ben and Jerry's NY Super Fudge Chunk Ice Cream

for breakfast the next day:

Toasted Bagels with Cream Cheese

(well in Houston maybe you should make Pancakes with Real Maple Syrup or Waffles with a waffle iron...yum)

Bacon - you know the kind all the British think is disgusting!! Make sure you put it right on the waffles with the syrup.

Can I come???

gruezi

Hi Gruezi,

Now that's a real US expat dinner.

Tschibo has a great waffle iron if you're considering buying one. Here's what it looks like:
http://www.tchibo.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/de/-/EUR/TdTchDisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=0009946

I've got two at home and use them once a week.

Schuler,

You are a wealth of good food suggestions!

Looks like I know what to get my husband for Father's Day!

g.

gruezi -- that menu is almost too mean! You had me at "lots and lots of ice." I would substitute good Mexican food for your hamburger and add jelly beans for dessert. Mmmmm . . .

gruezi

You must be a choco-holic like me. I LOVE New York Chunky Fudge. I eat the entire pint at one time. I know... it's not healthy and one day I'll be fat. That's what people have been telling me my whole life. still skinny

BKP - yes, I too miss ICE!!

scatcat - you got my number on the chocolate. My husband refers to my favorite ice cream as "The Chunk"...

Sadly, you can get B&J in Switzerland just not that flavor. Well you'd have to bring gold bars to the store to afford B&Js here, but if they had "The Chunk" money would not be an issue! I have asked many a store manager to order my "Chunk" but so far no go...

Funny story, once we were in Germany and staying in an apt for a few days. I saw some "Chunk" in a shop and went in and gleefully bought it. It had been many months since my last "fix" and I was delirious with joy. Bought it, took it back to the apt and put it in the freezer. We were leaving the next morning and I thought I'd eat it on the ferry - I even had a spoon all ready. I actually put a note on my door so I wouldn't forget it. Went into the freezer in the morning and it was LIQUID!! The freezer was broken. Yes, a grown woman did cry that day....

My husbands moral, "next time you see "The Chunk" eat it right away!" Smart man.

gruezi, We've been going through 3-4 pints of B&J a week since we got back!

Re: Compounds
Many American military personnel live "on base" at the various U.S. installations around Stuttgart. They have their own grocery stores, gas stations, schools, etc. and even pay for everything in U.S. dollars. Apparently you could survive entirely on base and never leave, never speak a word of German, and never interact with anyone on the outside. Obviously that's an extreme but it does happen. I wonder if it is a defensive mechanism for those military families who have to move often - staying on base gives some semblance of continuity to what must be a very unstable lifestyle - but I can't help feeling like those folks are missing out.

Re: Health Care
We had to get vaccinated for a trip to Africa and I got pregnant while we were in Germany, so we had a number of interactions with the German health care system. We were on a Blue Cross international plan so it was like having private insurance, meaning we paid up front for services and got reimbursed later. In general I was pretty impressed with the services and prices - I joke that going to the doctor in Germany costs about as much as taking my pets to the vet in the U.S.! They are also much more accepting of holistic medicine and alternative practices. You are much more likely to get a natural remedy for what ails you when you go to the pharmacy, acupuncture is a commonly accepted treatment during pregnancy, and midwives are the norm.

Wow! This thread is exactly what I need! I am moving my family to London this summer. I've already experienced a whole range of emotions in preparation. Mostly I am exhilerated at this amazing opportunity. This thread has been so helpful in giving me a sense of what kinds of things to keep in mind regarding the children. My move is two months away. All of my children (well the two who are old enough to get it--my kids are 1, 5 and 8) are excited about this move. I know the reality of it all will hit them at some point after we've move. For those who have tread these waters before what is the one piece of advice you would give to someone in my position?

my better half are seriously considering leaving the US and moving elsewhere. The places that we are considering are Australia, New Zealand, and UK/Ireland. Any advice?

sam -- I think that's great news. We've been in the UK for 9 months and love it. I probably can't offer too much advice, I'm still learning the ropes, but I can definitely offer encouragement!

dba -- my only advice is to look into visas/work permits. From what I've read it's difficult to get one on your own. It seem like many expats are transferred within their company and they (the company) take care of the paperwork.

sam- congrats on your upcoming move!!!! I don't know what your situation is with respect to taking your belongings, but I strongly 2 things -

(1) Allow your kids to pack 1 small bag of "their" important stuff. This might be a bag you let them take on the plane (as a carryon), or put inside a checked bag (so it's there when you arrive). But something so that when you arrive they will have a few things that are important to them (favorite books, stuffed animals, favorite PJs or t-shirt, small toys, snacks, whatever). Of course - pay attention to what they pack to make sure it isn't something "not-allowed" on the flight!

(2) Assuming you get to bring a small shipment of personal stuff with you, in addition to clothes and practical items - try to take along a few things that will make your new place "feel" like home. We were lucky on our first move and were able to take as much stuff as we wanted - so we took most (but not all) of our household goods. As a result - our apartment in Cairo "looked" very similar to the house we had in Houston (well, except for the bidet in the bathroom which the boys had great fun with!). It might be interesting to ask your older children (and yourself!) what in your current home really makes it "feel" like "home."

dba - I haven't been to Australia - but I would go to NZ in a heartbeat! It's a fabulous place!!!!!!

hausfrau-

To address your comments regarding compounds and the U.S. military:

My family is part of the military community in Germany, though we live in Kaiserslautern rather than Stuttgart. It is true that there are some folks who live on base, work on base, shop on base, and rarely go out "on the economy". For me, that's such a wasted opportunity. But you have to understand, it wasn't a love of adventure or travel that brought those people to Europe...they had no choice. They're here to do their job, not to have a cultural experience. Many of them never wanted to come to Germany, and some of them can't wait to leave. Still, I'd say that those people are in the minority. We, as well as most of our friends, do not live on base and are out in the community quite often. And you'd probably be surprised how many German Nationals we encounter on base every day, as well. Many of us have taken German lessons, and most everyone I know can handle basic, everyday situations in German.

Secondly, please understand that we get paid in dollars. With the exchange rate, shopping on the economy can get very expensive for us. I used to buy most of my children's clothes downtown (often in Stuttgart!), but we now shop on base or order online. Right now, I'm paying THOUSANDS more for a new transmission because my dollar is worth so little against the euro. If we had a shop on base where I could pay in dollars, you can bet my car would be there instead! And who wouldn't buy their groceries where they can spend less and find the familiar items that they want to buy? Our choosing to shop primarily on base isn't the result of being insular, its just the results of good economic sense.

I hope this isn't too off-topic; I found your observations interesting and wanted to offer a bit of explanation.

my better half are seriously considering leaving the US and moving elsewhere. The places that we are considering are Australia, New Zealand, and UK/Ireland.

Find a company that will send you as an ex-pat. This is easily the best way to do it.

It isn't as simple as packing your bags. Work visas are not automatic, and you may have to hire a service to help you get it. Even then, you will need to find a job, particularly one willing to take the chance on someone who may leave in a year or two. Then you need to arrange the move and storage of anything you don't bring. And you have all the ground work - bank accounts, drivers licenses, etc.

There are companies that make their living taking care of this stuff, and there is a reason. And they don't do it on the cheap, and the bills can easily reach into the tens of thousands of dollars.

mindy - I can imagine being paid in $ and going off "camp" to buy stuff must be tough. I've seen the value of our exchange rate drop significantly in the time I've been here - almost 10%. And inflation is so bad - I really don't know how the locals make it.

You also had a good point about people who really DON'T want to be overseas anywhere.

We have that issue too. There are some husbands who had no choice about coming here (if they wanted to continue to work for the company - or they wanted to get ahead or whatever) and the wives really didn't want to come. There are a few that are just miserable here and spend their time complaining that this place isn't any good because it's not like _____ (in the US). Well, DUH! It's NOT the US! They look for any opportunity to get out of here to Dubai or the UK or wherever.

And I agree with travelgourmet that it is MUCH easier to relocate overseas if you are doing it as an employee of a larger company/organization. They take a lot of the "hassle" factor our of the equation. Granted - it's never hassle-free, but the companies that play intermediary really made a difference.

dba31498

Do you have another nationality, or can you qualify for one, through your ancestry, family connection or marriage? If you do, it takes away a big chunk of hassles about immigration and work permit issues, though having a right to settle and work doesn't mean you will walk into any jobs.
Start networking among your and your partner's professional circles. Look for opportunities for intra-company transfers, visiting lectureship/fellowship for academicians and exchange options in your professions (e.g. teaching). If you have skills and qualifications in demand in the country you wish to move to, investigate points-based immigration. Australia and New Zealand have well-established systems (as well as US), while UK has recently started one. Look at any 'relocation package' you get very carefully - what would otherwise be a good deal in one country may not be in another, because of cost of living and exchange rate fluctuations. And always have plan B when plan A doesn't work out - rent, rather than buy, a property and don't sell up your house and possessions. Rent out your house for a limited period and put your goods into storage, in case you have to make a swift return home.

I'm a Canadian expat, married to a Brit. We moved to the UK from British Columbia in 2001 and in hindsight, it wasn't a good idea. There's simply too many social and economic problems in the UK and no indication of new leadership thats going to be able to make the tough decisions needed to get the country back on track.

Canada isn't a utopia by any means, but we're very much looking forward to emigrating back. Hubby's visa is in the works, and we expect to be home in early 2009.

Emigrating is like anything; sometimes it works, sometimes not. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to try living somewhere else.

We did the research and found our family in Italy. There was no contact with them since my Granddad lest in 1905. What we found was that they were what we USED to be here in the states. They were still close and family oriented. We loved it so much we bought a villa in town and became Italian citizens. We move there in December

My move to Budapest from Florida was my decision. It was not r/t a job transfer. I was working as a nurse in the hospital, had a bad day, a really bad day and said enough of this. I packed up moved to BP and stayed for 4 years.

I found an wonderful job, as a nurse, met an amazing man, got married had a baby and 6 months after she was born, we returned to FL. Biggest mistake I ever made. Not the baby or the DH but he move back. It has been about about 6 years since we moved back, and I think I have been in a mild depressive state ever since. I do have a great job so does DH, our daoughter is happy as a clam, but there seems to be something missing.

Perhaps the fact that hopping on a train, (if one serviced our area) traveling for 2-3 hours gets me as far as Disney World. Not really a cultural experience.

I miss counrty hopping on a moments notice. "hey let's to Vienna for the day or over to Slovakia for lunch" However, I must say what I miss most about BP are the friends. Ture friends,not aquaintances like here, but heart felt friendships that last through tick and thin.

Would I go back... in a heart beat, but DH says never. So we compromise, I make it back every year-n-half for a few months to get my "fix".
I keep thinking just 9 more years and the mortgage is paid off, oh boy let me loose than.

Its interesting to see each person's perspective. I am a slightly different situation. I left NJ in the early 90's wanting to see a bit more of life as I was trapped in a job I hated in NY and felt nothing was moving forward.

I have an Irish Passport and realised I could work in London so I went ny myself in my 20's for a 10 day trip to London.....This was before Fodors and the only info you could get was in books or the library (I did not know what the web was! ) this was the 90's!

I was convinced by my Irish cousins who visited me a few months prior to come to Ireland first and then move to London. I had not met them in years prior to this. Well I went to Dublin, Applied for jobs in London and even flew over for an interview and started to gets jobs in Dublin...Horror at the wages but things were starting to Pick up in Ireland then and I had a day job and a night job to keep from starving. As I was not being sent under a company I strggled but, I had a plan a, b and c. Plan a was london, Plan B dublin plan c make it a long holiday trip and go home. I also gave myself a year to decide if I would stay and renewed this contract in my head each year and started to forget after a few. When I bought an apartment a few years back the penny dropped with my mother and she was upset but now sees it as an excuse to come over.

Its hard as I wish I was there more for my parents and a few times I did toy with the idea of returning (I think my husband would like to try it as well, he is Irish) but I do not want to go back to the same life I left and regret it.

I struggled quite a few times with money, cultural issues (Even thought both my parents are Irish born) etc but I just took things as they came and it is what worked for me and in my adopted country.

Expat lives are different from mine as I do not have a group of friends who are here for jobs. My friends are frommany places but a lot are similar to how I ended up in DUblin. I don't regret it but getting a bit itchy to move again after 13 years. We would love to live in asia for 2 years and maybe another european country....I am dreaming of a small place in France to eventually split my time between there and Dublin. Lets see!

Overall no matter what way you go there will be tough times but it opens up your world and you see things differently and realise that you are not the only opinion out there and it can be humbling. I went to Munich a few weeks back and in a restaurant/bar, met a guy from Ireland, his Finnish Girlfriend and was asked if I lived there as she needed members for the local ladies GAA (GAelic football) team. I wish i did live there ti join the fun!

Go for it if you can! Going home for a holiday in August AND WILL PROBABLY SAY LETS GO BACK but I always do that and realise its just holiday blues when I get back

I thought I'd continue my expat life indefinitely, but I think I've changed my mind.

I've enjoyed living in Japan and Korea for about 8 years. I've taught English in both countries and found it fulfilling.

Yet a fellowship in Indonesia (English Language Fellowship) has made me rethink everything. The experience with a poorly run program made me look closely at what I was doing and where it could take me.

On top of that I started examining my finances and learned that English professors made about 53% of what foreigners who taught French or history did (in Korea).

New practices and laws have been adopted so that English teachers in Japan are almost always limited to 3 years with a school. Korean colleges are starting to cap experience as well.

I've got 10 years teaching experience and the job offers I'm getting pay me less than I made two years ago and compare even worse to the work I did in the US before I got my masters.

I enjoyed the cultural exchange, but I can get that in the Chicago area where I live and I'm not treated like a second rate citizen.

In Asia as an expat teacher there seemed to be little chance of making the salary I want to get a basic middle class lifestyle (home ownership, etc.) These jobs pay enough for one person to live well. Supporting a family is almost impossible.

I'd love to teach in Europe, but the jobs I've applied to have replied that they don't hire Americans. (That was in Switzerland.)

Thus I'm contemplating leaving teaching.

Gruezi:

I just want to make a comment to you. I lived in Zurich as an expat for several years. 3 years ago we moved to a suburb of Chicago, where I had never lived before.

To say it was tough is an understatement. So many thing seemed foreign: round door knobs, screen doors..screens, the toilets. Everything tastes saccharine sweet: salsa, spaghetti sauce, ketchup, ice cream were so horribly sweet, made for the American palate

The waste is incredible. Such trash, and overpackaging. I still to this day make notes of dumpsters in case I need to throw something away. And I still have trouble throwing out magazines…especially a very precious and prized People mag.

But the hardest thing to get over is how everyone drives everywhere. We have sidewalks, but no one uses them, and many intersections make no provision to even cross the road. The car is the purse. And everyone eats in the car.

And since everyone drives everywhere, its tough to meet people. I joined the Y, a running club, volunteered, taught ESL classes. I finally broke down and went back to work as no one under the age of 60 is around during the day.

I hope it will be different for you. The first 2 years I flew back to CH quarterly, as my heart is still there.

Loved your menu BTW. En Guete!

Having been an ex-pat for nine years I really wish someone would have told me how depressing it is when you have to return to the U.S. and its "normal" boring lifestyle. Noone really understands or cares about any of your stories or adventures. A gazed look quickly comes over their faces.

Prepare yourself for this giant letdown.

My husband and I have been living in Oxford, England as he earns a degree at Oxford. With completion of his degree less than 2 months away, he is interviewing for job and - since his field is finance - he is applying to jobs in NYC and in The City (London) and we have a daily conversation about where to live, which to choose.

There are so many things I could write, but in one sentence this is what I think: Once you have moved from your home to another country, you will always yearn for the place where you are not.

Here, I miss our house, my friends and family, our proximity to the beach and weekends spent there, watching certain TV shows on the television rather than trolling websites for them (!), favourite restaurants, the way the light filters through our back window in the afternoon making me want to curl up on the bed in the guest room and read a book. However, if we move back to the US and our house, I will miss: being an hour from London; like PittPurple (her post is up at the top of this long line) mentions, weekends and quick trips to Europe; really good pints of beer; the way a choir sounds in a church made of stone; drives in the countryside; the way the afternoon light hits the yellow stone of the centuries old spires of Oxford, making the buildings look as if they are glowing.

There are "cons" of both places as well, but I think that is not what impacts our lives as much as the things we grow to love and treasure....and miss.....

[i]I'd love to teach in Europe, but the jobs I've applied to have replied that they don't hire Americans. (That was in Switzerland.)[/i]

It's not so much not hiring Amerucans as anyone who requires a visa and work permit, which includes Australians, NZlanders, South Africans etc, anyone who isn't an EU/EEA or Swiss citizen.
It's tough for non EU/EEA/Swiss citizens to get an English teaching job in most of Europe, as there is a glut of well-qualified teachers from UK and Ireland, and other EU countries, who can teach without visa or permit. And authorities just don't issue visa or permit as there is no shortage of qualified, resident workers, unless you are entering as a spouse of EU etc citizen.
Situation is different in other parts of the world such as Asia, Africa and South America as everyone needs a visa and nationality doesn't matter so much, provided you are a native speaker.

Queenie, you're exaggerating. Lots of Americans don't live that wasteful lifestyle. Perhaps you should move to another community. There are many people in American cities who don't drive everywhere (and who don't even own a car), who don't eat in the car, who don't need ALL their food sweet sweet sweet, who shop at farmers' markets and don't buy wastefully packaged materials, who recycle, etc.

I go back to the U.S. every year and I LOVE spending my time back there. When I'm with my friends and family, we do NOT eat "horribly" sweet food, we do NOT drive everywhere, we do NOT eat in the car, and all my friends and family recycle their magazines, they NEVER just throw them away.

For example, when I'm in Philly for an upcoming trip, I'll be using buses, the commuter trains, and my own two feet. When I go to Portland, OR, later this year, I'll be taking the MAX, buses, riding around on a bike, and walking. Just like many of the people who live and work there.

We're moving into our 10th year as expats and we find that overall, life overseas is better than life in the U.S. in some ways and worse in others, and it roughly balances out. It's certainly NOT the case that everything in Europe is wonderful and everything in the U.S. is awful.

Just to add my two cents worth to a very interesting thread ...

I was born in the UK, have lived and worked in Paris, Tel Aviv, Tehran and New York (where I have lived for more than 25 years). None of my moves involved having a job or home awaiting my arrival. My first move was for love, the others for curiosity, but more to the point, it is so hard to go back once you have experienced "another way of life". I arrived alone in New York with two suitcases of clothes, no home, no job, knowing no-one, and here I still am all those years later. I visit London frequently, especially as I have close relatives and friends there, but -- even though I often think about possibly returning permanently one day --I now consider myself a visitor. I've been away too long and don't know whether I would be able to attempt trying to pick up where I left off. Of course, I first moved away from England in my 20's and now I am in my 60's, so it's very different moving away for a relatively short period of time.

Most importantly, life is what you make it, if you are strong, curious and brave enough to take the challenge, there is nothing more satisfying than experiencing "starting over" in a new country -- and for kids, that experience will carry them through the rest of their lives.

To this day, my mission remains to see as much of the world as possible before I die -- and I'm still working on that!

BTilke,
Have you lived in the suburban midwest? Its not Philly (where I lived and worked 15 years) so I do understand the comparison, but its not reality here.

The public transport in the suburbs, if there is any, is not workable here. We did not own a car in Europe, and I don't like to drive so this is problematic. My husband works in the suburbs, the commute from the city is over an hour each way, so we chose to live in the suburbs 4 miles from his office. In CH we were so spoiled, you could live in a small community and use their public transport efficiently.

And by sweet, I am comparing the packaged tomato sauce (Ragu) , ketchup (Heinz) etc to the same item packaged in CH. There is a huge difference with the fructose corn syrup that is added to lots of things here in the US. I don't like it.

And by magazines I meant we gave them to someone. I tried to do that at our Y and they thought I was crazy.

Yes, I think we should move to one of the coasts because life is vastly different there. I'm working on it.

Queenie, you won't comparing apples to apples. You lived in Zurich, a major international city in a fairly compact country. There are plenty of small towns in the UK, in France, in Germany, etc., where most people rely on their cars rather than mass transit, not that different from the suburban car dependency you have now. We--the "wasteful Americans" as you put it--are in fact the only ones in our Berkshire neighborhood who DON'T drive everywhere. I look out my window and parked on our suburban English street are several SUVs, a pick-up truck, and a few large sedans.

It's possible to live in many U.S. cities and not need a car, just like in Europe. And you don't have to eat Ragu spaghetti sauce, there are many better alternatives available. It's not as if less sugary, better-packaged food doesn't exist in the U.S. Most of my in-laws are vegetarians and my best friends in the U.S. are either RDs or doctors; they have no problems whatsoever finding good, healthy food.

BTilke,
Yes, I understand all that. I was writing specifically to Greuzi who does live in Zuerich. So her experience may be similar to mine.
Sorry to offend.

<<Having been an ex-pat for nine years I really wish someone would have told me how depressing it is when you have to return to the U.S. and its "normal" boring lifestyle. Noone really understands or cares about any of your stories or adventures. A gazed look quickly comes over their faces.>>

travelpig51 - After 7 years as an expat I am fearing this exact thing!!!!

Luckily, I have 4 close friends who were all expats for many, many years who will be living near me. So I know they will help me thru the transition!

As for the "gazed look" from people - we started getting this as soon as we moved overseas. With the exception of a small group of people, we no longer talk about our life or our travels unless asked. Many of our friends and family just don't understand and so they don't care.

Thanks, it's just I get a little weary of some of the condescending attitudes towards Americans you sometime see on this forum (I'm not referring to your posts at all), as if every American weighs 300 pounds, drives an SUV, can't manage a word in a foreign language, can't talk quietly, shops only at Wal-Mart, yadda yadda yadda.

Fortunately, they're just a small minority.

FYI, on Deutsch Welle (German) TV, there was a health program on last night about a chunky young German who adores McDonald's (esp. Big Macs and the fishburger) yet managed to lost 35 kilos even though he happily ate fast food almost every day. All his health "markers" (cholesterol,etc.) improved significantly, despite his fast food addiction. The show interviewed a few befuddled healthcare professionals who said that his diet was very unhealthy, but in fact, his health had really improved--their attitude was very much, "well, it worked for him, but please don't try this at home."

I've felt like an "expat" living in parts of the United States! A native of New Jersey, I fit right in in Manhattan, but it took me ten years to feel at home in Massachusetts. I moved from Massachusetts to California with no problem — it felt like "home" from day one. Then to Texas, where I spent five years and the longer I lived there the less I felt like I belonged there. I go back occasionally and always feel like I'm in a foreign country. The to Wisconsin for seven years, and while it didn't feel like "home" the people were very accepting so it didn't feel too strange. Then to Florida. Northwest Florida felt strange (too redneck) but Southwest Florida feels like New Jersey with palm trees so it also feels like home. By the way, I felt more at home in Rome than I did in Dallas, probably because it has almost as many Italians as greater New York!

I think the point about feeling like an ex-pat in your own country is so true! We have lived in a Chicago suburb and it was very different from NYC where we moved from and where I grew up and spent most of my life (w/in an hour of the city).

Just like Zurich vs NY, I found lots of things to be different - some for better, some for worse.

I lived in a very Republican town in Chicago but I'm a Democrat. I kept my own last name when I married which people there thought was very odd. Dinner parties were interesting to say the least. I think people invited me sometimes just to keep things from being boring. I was there during the whole gays in the military debate and it was shocking to me all the homophobia!

OTOH, I loved how family-oriented Chicago was, and how friendly and generous the people were. I made a ton of friends in a very short time. Also, I had a small child there and I loved all the drop-off programs in the churches - very good and inexpensive day care or babysitting.

Our town actually was quite convenient by train to the city and most people used mass transit to get there.

Well, I confess I hated the weather - worse than Zurich!

We also lived in Chevy Chase, MD - just outside DC, where my husband was the only Republican in town (fortunately I've converted him since) and where every woman kept her maiden name. Politically I fit in, but it wasn't a great place for a stay-at-home mom and I was very lost socially. The weather was so humid everyone cleared out of town in the summer.

So, wherever you go, there are the positives and negatives and it's good to focus on the positives even if some days it's tempting not to. (Believe me I have self-pity days wherever I'm living!)

A Swiss friend teaches an ex-pat class here called, "Switzerland Is My Home Now." I use that phrase as a mantra whenever I start thinking how things are done better in the US, or what I miss about there. It helps me stay focused on the here and now and what is good about life here. Also, I try to stay away from negative people who are unhappy. They can really cloud your vibe.

I already know I will miss Switzerland when we leave. I'm trying to soak up as much of life here as I can. This doesn't mean it's better than where I came from - just different.

Btilke - I get so tired of the American bashing too! I would never put down the food, clothing, etc of another culture in such a rude way so it's hard for me to understand how other people feel so free to do so. Saying it's "just a joke" doesn't excuse bad manners or hurtful comments. I have an "ex-pat coach" and she taught me to say, "you may find that to be true for yourself, but I think that is a stereotype and that has not been my experience with Americans (fill in the blank with whatever they are dissing at the time)... This simple, non-confrontational phrase has helped me a lot.

Gosh, I am enjoying this thread - wish it had started months ago!!

gruezi

I would feel like a total foreigner in Texas, too. Just not a place where I could feel comfortable, even Austin.
In the late 1980s, we almost moved to Colorado Springs for DH's work. We went there for a week to check it out; thank goodness! A week was more than enough.

However, one of the things I don't understand is when people voluntarily move to a foreign country and make NO effort to integrate in any way. I don't mean places where the culture is radically different (ex. Saudi Arabia) or one has to live on a compound for security or financial reasons. But to move to a place like Brussels and spend all your time socializing (by choice) only with people from your own country, never learning any French (and won't even think about trying to learn Dutch), living in expat enclaves, and hanging out only in expat bars (Irish pubs)...what's the point? When there was a Marks & Spencers in Brussels, people used to joke about the expats who went shopping there for Belgian chocolate.

BTilke - I agree about people who don't even try to fit in or experience the local culture. It's just sad. And while I certainly understand the money issue involved earlier (exchange rates, high costs), I sometimes think having access to all the "benefits" of an embassy or military set up is somewhat limiting.

I had a friend in Cairo - a dear friend - who was great at going out and about visiting places, taking tours, etc. But when it came to shopping - she couldn't bring herself to go to the local stores. Her husband was with the embassy and they had generous mail privileges and access to the commissary.

All of her food shopping was done at the commissary. She drove out once a week and stocked up. (Note: it wasn't that far away but it was out of her "comfort zone" for driving).

She was panicking when the war in Iraq was about to start because the embassy was recommending everyone "lay low" for a few weeks (basically not going out of our little area of town). She didn't know what she would do if she ran out of something and couldn't get to the commissary!

Now - at that point - she had been in Cairo 2 years! So another friend and I took her out and explained that it was perfectly possible (and even cheaper in many cases) to buy eggs, milk, bread, cheese, butter, cereal, meat, produce, snacks, etc at the local markets. We made a list of the "preferred" products, and listed which stores were better for what items. We even gave her all the phone numbers so she could just call the markets and have the stuff delivered!!! After that, she did do a little shopping at the local stores - but still went to the commissary for most things.

Now - don't get me wrong! I would have LOVED to have had access to that commissary! Just to get honey-baked hams, good pork chops and sausages and hot dogs, frozen food items, decent wine....well I could go on! She always gave my son a grocery bag of hot dogs, frozen pizza rolls, SunnyDelight, and candy for his birthday and it was a HUGE hit! But - I just felt she was limiting herself by not going out and trying what was available locally.

I'm really fascinated by everyone's comments and am so glad this thread got started.

Queenie, having returned to midwest suburbia (I am originally from California) from Germany, I can totally relate to your comments about the American lifestyle. I was struck by many of the same things - horrendous wastefullness, lack of public transit, hulking SUVs hogging the roads, etc. No, this doesn't describe every place in America, but it is a shockingly common trend.

mindylt1, your comments to my post were a while back but I wanted to respond. I hope I didn't come across as insensitive - I absolutely understand that many military families have no choice about where they get stationed. And I know that expat arrangements work best when the whole family is 100% behind the move, whereas in a military situation you don't have the luxury to make that decision. But wouldn't you say that when you sign up for the military, you should assume that "travel to exotic places" is part of the package? I knew several military wives who enjoyed life on base while also experiencing the local culture, as you describe. What worries me is when people are so insular that they rarely set foot off base, and when they do, they tend to fulfill the unfortunate stereotypes that some Europeans (rightfully) have of Americans.

I certainly understand the financial aspects as well. We were lucky enough to have a nice expat package through my husband's company. We could have gotten by without it, but would not have had the extra money to travel as much as we did. I see ourselves as extremely fortunate!

Before we let the Americans beat up on themselves too much for environmental wasting, I want to say that DH and I, (Canadians), experienced the same things on our return from Italy to Canada.

We taught and lived in Italy for some time, but returned to Canada eventually to be closer to family and friends. We have been back 3 years.

For me, beyond the ocean between our family, the downsides of living in Italy were these:

1. The class system is alive and well and living in (small town) Italy. There is also a nasty and lively prejudice against anyone who is 'not-like-us': includes skin colour, country of origin, religion etc.

2. The expectations of what women can do, say, think, dress, the jobs they can hold and the weight of their opinions are very different in Italy than in the US/Canada.


3. The corruption of the civil bureaucracy is taken for granted: life is more expensive and somehow 'seedier' as a result...if you really want to get that municipal gas metre fixed, get out of paying that ticket/fine, get your name on the list for a 'permesso' a little faster, you just reach in your pocket...it gets you down.

4. Italians don't get the sanctity of 'ones place in line': at the Post Office, for example, 'dottore' trumps 'professoresse', and the second cousin of the clerk at the wicket trumps everybody else.

5. Yes, the food is wonderful, but after a year you really long for Indian or anything else with a real spice 'punch'


6. There are not 4 distinct seasons-its all pretty much warm and wonderful for 7 months, then dull, grey, damp for the next 5.

7. Soccer and 'Formula 1' are both great, but I really missed HNIC!!!(duh-de-duh-duh, Don Cherry, 'he shoots, he scores!!!!',"Hockey, hockey, hockey")


So, we decided our time was up and returned home.

The negative impressions of home in the first few months:

1. Why is there so much waste? Clothes driers, heat on full blast with no one home, lights not on timers, cars used for every trip, (lousy train and bus service), downtown buildings ablaze at 3am

2. Nobody says 'hello' passing in the streets...strangers do not wish you 'buon appetito' when you are on your way home to lunch (well, you don't get to go home to lunch...)

3. Families are just not as visibly close and comfortable together: big family parties out at restaurants ('just because its Sunday') are a rarity in North America and the kids look wildly uncomfortable when you do see them at tables with elderly aunts


4. Why did I whine about the lack of winter and the 'sameness' of Italian food when I was there!!!!!


I came home with a renewed appreciation for my own beautiful, egalitarian, civil and peaceful country and its polite, kind and cautious, but genuinely warm citizens.

DH and I daydream about a place in the Abruzzo from time-to-time, but we would never go back to full-time life in another country.

Very interesting post... I decided to submit out family's story as well
We moved to the UK exactly a year ago for my husband's job (he works in the financial industry, and no, he's not an investment banker ) At that time our son just turned 1, I had a full time job at a company where I've worked since graduating from college, where I was well regarded and respected and on my way up. We lived in an apartment that we bought and renovated just 2 years ago, in the neighborhood we absolutely loved (for those familiar with NYC, it was in Brooklyn Heights) We benefited tremendously from the best babysitting in the world in a form of 4 loving, caring, willing and able grandparents. And our social life was busier than we could handle, with all of our families and most of our friends living in the same area. But when my husband was offered a position here in London, we didn't hesitate for too long before accepting it. So I resigned from my job, we put our apartment on the market, sold our car, installed Skype on our parents' computers, pacified friends with the promise of free accommodations in London any time they want to come for a visit, and moved.
Here's my take on the pluses and minuses. I base them entirely on our family's situation and experience, and do understand that a positive for us might be a negative for someone else and vise versa.

Pluses:
1. The biggest draw is travel. The proximity to Europe (main continent) means you can be laying on a beach in Mallorca, eat lunch in Barcelona, walk the medieval streets of Bruges, take a boat cruise along the canals on Amsterdam or walk into Louvre within a few hours of leaving home.
2. We don't have to have a car to get around London or even outside of London as the public transportation is good. Though, people living on some of the other tube lines might disagree. I find that the bus network is very good. You can easily go on a day trip outside of London by train. Taking a cab with a stroller is so much easier than in NY as you can just roll in the stroller into the cab, and buses have separate areas for strollers!
3. We find the food better, healthier and tastier here. Every supermarket delivers, and sell a wide range of organic, free range and Fair Trade products. The pre-packaged meals (something we NEVER bought in NY) are very good here, offered at a wide selections and generally provide a good substitute for the take out food that NY is known for. We also love the food markets here where one can buy chorizo from Spain, olives from Portugal, cheese from France, sausage from Poland, sweets fro Turkey, and so on.
4. As we lived in NYC prior to our move, we find our neighborhood here in London (St. John's Wood) substantially greener, with abundance of parks small and big (Regent's Park is a 10 min walk for us, Hyde Park is a 10 min bus ride) My son loves that he can choose any from the 4 playgrounds to go to, and each is a 5-7 min walk from the house.
5. As after settling the family in and staying home for 8 months, I did decide to go back to work, I am now getting a very valuable international experience working in the financial industry, just as my husband does.
6. We made some very good friends very quickly within the expat community. However, we also spend a lot more of our free time just within our family, with my husband and me spending a lot more time on our own, just the 2 of us, whereas in NY we rarely did that.

Minuses:
1. Missing friends and family, missing out social life is definitely the #1 negative. My husband's best friend is getting married in NJ and he has to fly out to the wedding by himself as our schedule does not allow us to stay in the US for longer than 3 days this time and I did not want to take my son overseas and back for 3 days only and also, did not want to leave him without either of us being on the same continent as him so I opted to stay in London and not to attend the wedding. It is decisions like this and missing occasions like this that make it difficult at times to live here.
2. Everything is very expensive, I find shopping here absolutely cost prohibitive as I would almost always be paying double comparing to what I'd be paying in the US
3. If we ever do decide to stay and buy our own house, our money will get us a lot less than in NYC (and NYC is expensive as is!) When we go out to eat, we also find that we're paying more and getting less in terms of quality and preparation than in NY but than very few places can compaire to NY gastronomically.
4. As already mentioned by someone above, we find that we're getting worse medical care here than we were in NY (yes, we did have a very good medical insurance there and do have a private insurance here) And it does cost us significantly more here, the wait to see a doctor is much longer, and rarely there's a doctor who works past 6pm or on Saturday.
5. While I mentioned that the public transportation is good here in LN, for the most part at least, it is considerably more expensive than in NY. On the occasions that we do rent a car, we have to pay a LOT more for gas and congestion charges than we would've in NY.
6. As a manager in an investment bank here in LN, on the local payroll, I can attest that I am making less money here that I would've back in NY, adjusted for the currency exchange and cost of living. As a matter of fact, had my husband not been getting his expat package but rather been put on the local payroll as well, we would not have been able to afford living in our neighborhood, having a nanny, paying for nursery school and traveling as much as we do.
7. There're even fewer good state schools in London than in Manhattan or Brooklyn, which means having to go private; again, very costly though, more or less comparable to NYC
8. Maybe it is the area where we live but I was informed by our future headmistress that my son will be the only one in his class with a working mommy. We do live in an area heavily populated with expats as well as well to do locals so I guess it is logical that most of the women do not work but I was still quite surprised and not too happy to hear that.



As a disclosure, I would add that it wasn't a first international move for me, as I immigrated with my family to the US from the Ukraine back in 1995. Then and now, I saw very clearly that it will be exactly what I make of it. There will be good days and bad of course, but largely it will depend on your attitude! We did and still do view it as a great and exciting opportunity, personally and professionally. We wish our son would be able to remember his life in London and his travels but of course, he's still too little. We're planning to stay here for another 1 -1.5 years. After than my husband's project should be over and we'll go back to the US. From where we stand today, we would not want to settle in the UK permanently.

Just a word on these "ex-pat packages."

The heyday of big ex-pat packages for most companies is pretty much over. There are a few companies I hear that still reward ex-pat families well (General Motors seems to) but most of the ex-pats from the US in Europe are not living high on the hog. We definitely have seen our standard of living decrease when we moved. With the weak dollar, you really have to be careful if you want to have $$ to travel and enjoy the culture you've landed in.

My husband's company (I don't want to name it, but it's big, global, and does a lot of international moves) is in the process of reducing international assignments and related expenditures. It's our first intl. move, but many other people I meet say each subsequent move has been financially less attractive.

Our friends back home have the impression we are swimming in the dough, but as I mentioned above, I do a lot more housework, cooking etc here than I ever did in the states and we try not to have to shop for anything here. Simple economics for us and lot of the Americans I know here.

The company pays for one economy ticket per year for each of us to go home.

Also, beyond a realtor, a moving company, and an allowance for language lessons, we were provided with no other services for our move. I have attended various programs for ex-pats but all at my own investigation and expense. I asked for money to pay for a trailing spouse employment agency and it was declined.

We get a housing allowance and a small cost of living adjustment but trust me it doesn't cover the real cost differences. Our cost of living adjusts every 6 months so if the dollar falls by 10 or 20% in August too bad until January...

Fortunately, we kept our home in the US and the rent from there is what pays for our travel here. It would be extremely tight for us if we hadn't decided to do that. Our kids attend international schools where there are frequent trips for sports and such that involve flying. We pay the costs of those.

Not to discourage anyone, because we are still glad to have the opportunity, just a bit of the new global economy reality.

I always tell my husband, we are spending our retirement money now to travel while all our body parts still work well, and we can skip the travel part of retirement later He doesn't actually believe me... hee, hee...

gruezi

I really appreciate everyone's input into this thread. Obviously, there are different perspectives involved and many, many things to consider when making such a move. But, being aware of these beforehand should significantly ease the transition.

Thanks again!

Hausfrau:
I appreciate the validation! I will say it is extremely hurtful when someone questions or dismisses the experiences you have lived through. So I generally don't share anything and just internalize it.

Gruezi:
BEWARE. You stated you are renting your home. When you return, if you do not live in that home and decide to sell it, the IRS will get a big chunk (if you have not lived there 3 of the past 5 years). It is considered a rental property.
We got hit with an extra 5 figure tax bill because of this, and the company would not pay for this. So be sure to check that out.

gruezi - I too tell dh that about travel..he also doesn't believe me

Queenie,

Thanks for the warning... we do intend to live there, and my husband is pretty savvy with tax laws (we joke because he frequently corrects the accountant) but I will pass on your warning to him...

I wonder where you live in Chicago?

We lived in Hinsdale about 16 years ago...


Dawn - Now why don't they believe us?

gruezi

Regarding spending money - my DH wants to know why I am still buying carpets - just weeks before we leave Azerbaijan!!!!! I'm up to 22 (of various sizes + several sitting in storage!) and I have a huge one in the living room that I'm considering!!!

I just keep telling him that they are investments.........he's not really "buying" that argument - but he likes the big one I brought home!!!

My older son also wanted to know why we were getting another one and I just told him to "shush" and to look upon it as part of his inheritance!!!!

Geez....I'm gonna miss carpet shopping!!!!

Hello Nole,

You have just opened a can of worms!

Having been an expat in Rome for 26 years, raising children in multiple countries, and now splitting my life evenly between Italy and the US, I can speak from experience and say that yes, initially you miss a lot, then slowly as you become a part of your new home, you miss less. However, when you return "home," you miss a great deal of your adopted country!

Face it, any big experience leaves you a different person, and when you return, home has changed too. It's important to recognize who you really are. So, while abroad, as well as living the local life, getting to know others with a common background (It is said that Lazio, the region of Rome, has 66,000 Americans living there)keeps you grounded. When back home, something like ItalianNotebook.com or joining the different social groups made up of your adopted country's immigrants helps keep the flavor alive. It's a great adventure, wouldn't have changed it a bit. Like blackduff said, "not better or worse, just different!"

There is a lot written on the subject of "culture shock" and "reverse culture shock." Good luck!

hausfrau-

I didn't find your comments insensitive at all. It was honestly interesting to see how we appear from the "outside."

I think that, ideally, any American who is lucky enough to get to spend some time living overseas should make the most of the experience. Unfortunately, not everyone wants to do that. People join the military for a lot of reasons, and many of them have no interest in traveling anywhere. And honestly, I'm glad that folks with a negative attitude DO tend to stay on base. They're usually convinced that nothing in Europe could be as good as it was back home, and I hate to think of the impression that they leave with our German hosts.

In response to previous comments, I also find that, in general, Americans are more wasteful than Germans. Germans put so much emphasis on recycling; I have 4 different garbage cans for seperating our trash. When I visit my family in NC, it literally pains me to just throw everything into one container. Germans are very big on carrying reusable shopping bags, too, and we've noticed that when buying food out, you're much more likely to get "real" plates, glasses, and silverware. There just seems to be a different mentality.

Having said that, though, I am definitely NOT in the "everything's better in Europe" camp. After living here for 4 years, there are definitely things that I miss about home. Each place is different and has its own plusses and minuses.

What a great thread!

Thanks so much for the great stories!

I want to move to the UK for a few years as the DH is a British citizen. It sounds like a wonderful experience and an exciting one too.

I am not sure he wants to move back but you never know!

There has been so much useful information on this thread! Now, I have another, somewhat shallow, question. When did you start (if you have) using the vernacular of your adopted country? I don't mean speaking a foreign language but picking up the little phrases we don't use at home. I assume that even the people speaking a foreign language will use different words than we do when conversing in English. For instance, I am unable to say "cheers" instead of "thanks." I think I sound fake. But we are trying to pick up these words so that we can teach them to our son so that he won't be embarrassed at school by saying the wrong thing. I didn't realize that the English say pants when they mean underwear. I spent an entire Sunday School class telling my kids (12-14 years) how cold I was because I was wearing a skirt and not pants!

So, at what point did you feel comfortable enough to pick up the slang without feeling like you were "trying too hard" or being pretentious?

I still feel weird saying "Ciao" but often use the word "Tschuss". I think the because when I was younger "Ciao" was sort of the thing you said when you were trying to be hip and I always thought it sounded affected....

My youngest has picked up a bit of a British accent but so far doesn't use typically British words...She goes to a predominantly British school...

There are certain German words we use around the house - for fun and because they sound better for certain purposes. For instance, my oldest loves to say things are, "sehr schoen..." and the whole family knows when I say, "nein!" the answer is really no! My youngest likes to call me "mum" for fun since that is way more common here than "mom"...

So mostly expressions we use are for fun. During a dinner at our house you will likely hear a good sprinkling of expressions that are German, Swiss-German, Spanish, French and Italian along with our American English. Probably we wouldn't use them if anyone else was around though since it's all kind of an inside joke.

gruezi

Oh yeah, after we visited Morocco, my youngest and I started saying "inshallah" a lot... It really does make a lot of sense...who really knows what our future holds!

Inshalla! I think it's really cute that your son says that.

During the 60's, I spent a couple of years on army bases in Japan and began saying, "Ah, so." It's been habitual with me ever since, though I'm usually unaware of it.

Last week I was in a bookstore and had a conversation with an older man. He asked me if I'd ever been in Japan. Turns out I'd been saying "Ah, so." Avain.

I am most definitely not in the "everything in the US is crap and everything in Europe is peachy keen" camp. But I most definitely do agree that for the most part - things in in US are too big (cars, houses, restaurant servings), too fattening (especially the prepared foods that are full of salt and sugar), and pretty darned wasteful (so much stuff is waaaaaay over-packaged).

Except for the rare city - practically no useful public transport, dryers in every house (in fact many of the housing developments have CC&Rs prohibiting using a clothesline), huge cars/SUVs and pickup trucks.

I gave a talk to a local 100+ strong, youth symphony that was going on a concert tour to Europe - and it turned out that most of the teens had been on planes, a few had ridden school buses - but virtually none had ever been on a city or inter-city bus and not a single one had ever been on a train.

I did have cars when I was in the UK - in fact I lived most of my sports car fantasies while living there. But it wasn't an absolute requirement to drive to get places . . . . .

I totally agree with the idea of sounding fake when using the 'lingo' in a foreign country!

Now, I hope that "totally" sounded American and not fake in that sentence!

I think it takes a long time to adjust your speech patterns so you don't feel like a fake but for some reason some phrases are easier to pick up than others. It took me a while (a year?) to automatically come out with 'You're welcome!' in response to someone thanking me but I did feel it was expected so it was something I consciously tried to do. I now promptly say it in the UK and it does feel odd where if anything most people would say 'It's my pleasure' or 'Don't mention it' in response.

I'll always be a mum and not a mom but I can call a pavement a sidewalk and pronounce tom-ah-to as tom-ay-to (in a restaurant but not at home!)

We also use a few Caribbean phrases at home and now the kids use them even though they weren't born at the time we lived there!

Throw into the mix a bit of each of the languages we've learnt over the years.
Like gruezi these snippets are usually just for our family as I'd challenge the average guest to understand a question asked half in Welsh and half in Japanese.
Also, my husband and I used to say things in French before my son started learning it at school...

Add in snippets picked up on vacations (Italian, Hawaiian, etc etc) and it's a wonder we understand each other at times!

We have a few Arabic words that are just commonplace in our house....

"mumkin" - meaning maybe, possibly, perhaps.....really great when you are in a public setting and don't want to tell your kids yes in front of others. Kids understand - but no one else does!

"la-a" - meaning an emphasized "no!" Also good in those awkward public situations!

"bohkra" - meaning "tomorrow" and which MY world means....."don't bother me with it today - I'll deal with it tomorrow!"


Our one big Russian word.....(note: DH has been studying Russian for 3 years, but the locals speak both Russian and Azeri and the kids and I just haven't gotten into it.....kinda sad really!)

"nyet" - a VERY emphatic NO!

There are others- but these are the most frequent.

This truly is an interesting thread and I like the way it keeps morphing into ever interesting topics such as this current one on local vernacular.

I come from a large - and close - family who, between my siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews, have intermarried into various cultures and religions. I now count amongst my close family and relatives, a Swede, German, Welsh, Swiss, Scotsman, and Filipina. Believe it or not, we all get along famously. Festive celebrations are a delightful riot in our homes when we all get together and the mixture of foreign words now embedded through the years in our family's English conversations sometimes leave our guests baffled as to what we are saying ! But we all know and understand what we mean by what we say. It makes us family. We are not expatriate (though my family is of Indo-Portuguese heritage and we lived in East Africa for over 25 years which adds Swahili and Portuguese into the language mix) but from this perspective, we might as well be.
Perhaps more like the United Nations !

Gruezi : My sister and her husband used to live in Wadenswil on Zurich See (its near Horgen/Thalwil/Richterswil and not too far from Rapperswil) Do you know the place ? I've been there quite a few times and toured Switzerland a fair bit as well.
Have you been to the church at Einsedeln ?

Mathieu-

Yes! I'm right across the lake from there. My daughter's school is in Kilchberg.

I had a wonderful tour of Einsiedeln in December and then spent the afternoon at the Christmas markets. The sun was out and we actually sat outside for lunch... Apparently, they get a lot of sun there due to the altitude.

Also visited Einsiedeln as part of the Jakobsweg. I started in Rapperswil and reached Einsiedeln after about 5 hours. It's a big pilgrimage stop although I didn't see any other pilgrims that day - it was the end of September so maybe too late in the season. Gorgeous walk!!

g.

Well, we are not exactly expats, but experience much of what expats experience. We are on an open ended, multi-year trip around the world and have spent the last ( almost) 2 years in Europe ( plus Morocco and Turkey).

We have wintered the last two winters in a small village in southern Spain where my daughter attends the local school in her second language & we travel slowly primarily by RV ( with some hotel and pensions along the way) for 7 months when the weather is good.

http://www.soultravelers3.com

I absolutely adore this life and I can not say we have missed American life much at all. The people in our village our very warm and welcoming.

We continue our relationships with family and friends through our blog, email and free webcam skype calls. There are times that I forget that `I am not at home and other times it is blatantly clear, I am a stranger in a strange land.

Our life is like one big holiday or endless summer, so perhaps that makes things easier. We are also a very close knit family and self contained kind of people. My husband and I are introverts who are perfectly fine on our own, so that makes things easier as well.

I am not sure if we will ever return to the U.S. to live. We might eventually settle elsewhere or maybe we will settle there when and if we decide to settle down. We really enjoy this traveling lifestyle and can live much cheaper and fuller this way, so are in no hurry to end it.

It will be interesting to see how we feel when we return for a visit because we know we have changed in many ways. We will be going onto other continents also and it will be very sad for us to not return to Spain for the winter. We very well could return to Spain when we decide to settle down or perhaps Spain in the winter and another country. I think it is too hot for me in the summer, but we just adore it in winter.

Being fluent in the language really makes a huge difference. I am not fluent like my daughter and husband, so I do get left out on some things. Thankfully we have a few good Spanish friends that speak English.

None of us has had a hard time adjusting and we picked a village where there were very few expats.

Hi NoleNomad-I thought I would throw my two cents in. I have been living in the UK for two years now and LOVE it. I am torn as to whether or not to return to the US. In my opinion, I find the European lifestyle a better way to live life. Americans seem obsessed with work (and money) at times....and I feel that Europeans know how and when to slow down and enjoy life. Coming from a job where I worked 12-13 hour days, it's a welcome change in Europe. I don't know if I will live here permanently, but since I've been here I have enjoyed the chance to stop and breath once in awhile. If you choose to move to Europe I think it will be a great experience.....even if you decide to move back to the great US of A some day.

I have to say - when we left Egypt (our first overseas local) after 4 years, I was NOT ready to go back to the US. That wasn't even an option for us.

However, 3 years later.....I am actually looking forward to it!!!! It's not our first choice - but we're happy with the decision.

bookmarking

Keep in mind that, in most cases, it WAS the high salaried job, the excellent education, parental affluence, family inheritance - obtained while LIVING IN the US - that provided you the financial, economic, and intellectual means to go live OUTSIDE of the US.

In a similar vein: in another forum (discussing whether or not one would eat fast food in Europe), so many respondents (Americans) gave the impression that doing that was below them - YET by the end of their post they had something that generally started with "but one time....." and they end up eating the food.

Just remember that travel and cultural exchange is meant to be that - exchange. No culture is better or worse than another; cultures are just different, each with their own, unique traditions and customs.

My question for everyone here is...how do you get to live in all of these different countries with all of the immigration laws?

I lived and worked as a teacher in England for 16 months and loved every second. I am itching to go back but don't know where to start. Thanks

My husband was able to transfer to the UK division of the company that he worked for in the states. I believe that is the "easier" route. All of the expats I know personally have followed that route as well.

By the way -- we love living in England too!

as BKP - going thru the company you work for is the easiest route. The company takes care of all those details. I know people who have moved to places on their own but I don't know how they handled the logistics.

My husband is simply working for the London office of his US-based law firm. So they are taking care of all the immigration details.

I'd also like to say a word about expat packages. From conversations with others there is a huge range in offerings. Depending on your circumstances you may be able to negotiate various terms of your package. I think this is influenced by how much the company wants you to move, and likewise how much you appear to want to move! We're very fortunate to be going over on a very generous package (COLA, tax equalization, housing, private school, annual business class home leave, property management fees for our rental back home, moving and storage of goods, etc.), but I'd just say that with the right approach you can negotiate more favorable terms than what might be presented initially.

This is such a fascinating thread. Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to share your experiences.

I am an American "trailing spouse" who has been living in London for the last 7 months. My husband's company transferred us here for a 2-3 year assignment.

I agree with most of anuta's assessment of living here. It definitely has it pros and cons, and there are good days and bad. The weather has been a hard adjustment for me. I moved here in early December, and the fact that it started getting dark at three-thirty pm blew my mind. The fact that it is almost June and we still have our heat on is also quite depressing to me.

I have two small children (3 and 9 mos), so luckily the move has been easy on them. My 3 year old daughter is thriving in her Montessori school.

The exchange rate does make life extremely difficult, and it is nearly impossible not to wince when converting everything to dollars in my head (although I've gotten much better at not converting!).

I had to leave a job I loved, working in strategy at a consumer products company, and the adjustment from "working mom" to "housewife" has compounded the adjustment issues. I have found it difficult to meet people here. Although I do attend playgroups, church and other various activities in an attempt to meet people, I find that most of the other local moms in my area don't seem interested in initiating a friendship with me.

Pediatrician care has been spotty as well, even though we do have private insurance.

Samthetraveler, I would advise buying as many diapers as you can before you move over!! I stocked up before we moved, and I am so glad we did.

Also, I would add that although Europeans in general enjoy a more relaxed work atmosphere and reduced work day, the fact remains that my husband still works for an American Company (albeit with an International presence) and still retains his work ethic of putting in face time at the office, so he is working even more than he did at home , given his commute time.

Finally, I think our overall quality of life is a bit better here. We do many more things together on the weekends as a family. At home, our weekends were often eaten up by errand running, social obligations, etc. We don't have any of that here, so we spend time doing fun things together like going down to a farm in Surrey, going to a museum, or heading out to Oxford for the day.

I can say that there are only a few things I miss about home, and overall I am extremely thankful for this experience. But it is different in so many ways that you can't even prepare for. For example, our home has 49 steps in it, with our bedroom on the top floor and the kitchen in the basement. That is a looooong way between getting out of bed and my morning cup of coffee!

Good luck.

I'll throw in my 2p (see, using the local vernacular, look at me!) regarding expat packages. We're actually not on one. My husband works for the UK division of the company he used to work for in the States. They took care of the move, all the immigration paperwork, etc, but we're considered local workers now. So, no private school tuition for us -- but we do get paid in pounds, which I think makes a huge difference. I know I would forever be doing those calculations in my head too! Because of the exchange rate and the fact that our cost of living is actually cheaper here we did, technically, get a good raise. My point is that there are so many ways to make overseas living happen. If it's something you are passionate about, you can find a way.

This is such a facinating thread, especially to one who will never have the opportunity to live in another country. Thanks to all of you who have shared your ex-pat experiences, both good and bad.

>>>Having been an ex-pat for nine years I really wish someone would have told me how depressing it is when you have to return to the U.S. and its "normal" boring lifestyle. Noone really understands or cares about any of your stories or adventures. A gazed look quickly comes over their faces.<<<

To anyone who has had the good fortune of living in another country or just visiting one, come, sit next to me!!! I could talk travel and listen to travel stories all day long!

It is very true. No one could give a toss about your travel experiences (well, I had some mild interest in my recent experiences in India and particularly, Nepal-but they WERE quite unusual-like the maharajah's lodge we stayed in on the India-Nepal border, where we were greeted by triple tiger heads over the fireplace mantle-(if anyone ever wanted to know where the endangered Indian tiger has gone-I can tell them-on the walls of this maharajah's lodge, a lodge lost in time from the early 20th century, located in one of the most remote, god-forsaken places I've ever been anywhere in the world, that's where!)

But Europe? Nooo, not really, the glazed look in the listener's eyes begins almost immediately-traveling around to foreign countries is just not a part of most people's reality, (and let me say, that is equally true of Europeans-the majority of them don't travel that much-I know Dutch who haven't ever been to Germany, and they live now in the Hague, and grew up in Delft!)- they can't relate, and there may be some hidden jealousy factor built in as well. You really have to be content with going on travel blogs and writing trip reports if you want to get any positive feedback from your travel experiences!

As for ex-pats, well, my best friends from college are ex-pats in Belgium, for almost 10 years now, where they took their 5 year old daughter. The daughter is not in an international school, but is doing brilliantly in a Belgian Catholic school, where she speaks fluent French and Flemish/Dutch (not much choice, since the instruction is in French and Flemish). She wouldn't be able to make it in the international school, the Belgian standards are quite different, not nearly as rigorous-so she is doing very well in her milieu, since she is not that academically gifted, but is very good with learning languages and memorization-which serves her well. They have no plans to move back, their daughter will likely attend a French Catholic University in Belgium-but if they do, they'll be in Portland, Oregon/Seattle area, which is where my friend is from. They have a tight circle of friends who are based there from various multi-national companies, but also, European friends as well, they travel ALL the time, and have an extremely rich, interesting and very full life. My friend has kept a log (which now would be called a kind of blog-except there were no blogs when she started this) of her 9 years abroad which she has sent out to her friends in the US every month for the past 9 years-so we always know exactly what is going on in their lives! (I also drop in on them when we can manage-we are like family).

As for myself, I have spent stretches of time in foreign countries studying and working but not long enough to call myself an ex-pat. Some years ago, right before I started posting on Fodor's, as a matter of fact, I turned down an extremely prestigious and rather powerful position overseas for not very good reasons, and now, much as I wish I hadn't, you can't turn back the clock, what's done is done-the opportunity is gone and will never come again-but, I still travel all the time, all over the world, so that's some consolation-and I will be starting the second half of my round the world voyage this year in another 6 weeks!

Dexters, great advice! I'm actually building my costco/target list. I'm loading up on diapers and all sorts of essentials that are far cheaper here to include in the sea shipment portion of our move. Someone also mentioned to me that I should consider leaving some open space in our sea shipment (the firm gives us a finite amount of space both ways) to allow room for things I aquire whilst in London and during my travels throughout Europe. I never would have thought of that, but such great advice!

I have always kept a piece of paper taped to the side of my refrigerator that I use to make notes for my summer shopping frenzy!

Several years ago I created a "master list" on the computer and I just add to it/modify it as needed each year. Some things have been on there for 7 years (grape jelly, Starbucks coffee, Tony Chachere's cajun seasoning, corn bread muffin mix, NyQuil and DayQuil, Crystal Lite, scrapbooking supplies, etc).

The summers have always been a real shopping nightmare for me since - in addition to all the food/pharmacy stuff that I buy - I have had to buy shoes/clothes for the kids for the whole year, try to anticipate birthday/Xmas items, get updated sports equipment (everything from soccer shoes to rollerblades to skateboards), and update wardrobes for me and DH. I always call the credit card companies before I head to the US to warn them!!!!!

I agree about leaving some room on your shipment - or if you take a lot of "consumables" that you will use up during your time - that could also provide you extra space. A lot of people I know have ended up just giving/throwing things away at the last minute because it wouldn't fit on the shipment!

We were lucky that we are packing out now and have a 20 foot ocean container (more if we really need it) plus an air shipment. We came up here with just a 20 foot container, so I think we'll be in good shape - even with the stuff we've purchased. Luckily - those carpets roll up quite nicely and don't take up too much room!!!!

"No one could give a toss about your travel experiences "

So very true. In fact, people find it boring. Many people couldn't relate, comprehend and certainly didn't want to hear that maybe life across the Atlantic is just as good as in the States.

So when I return for a visit, I ask tons of questions about life in America. I love talking politics but found it's taken much too personal. If all else fails, I'll ask about sports or religion. Works every time.

<<Many people couldn't relate, comprehend and certainly didn't want to hear that maybe life across the Atlantic is just as good as in the States.>>

I don't find that it's so much a question of people thinking that life is so much better in the US as much as it is a question of people just not being able to comprehend the type of life we lead and why we chose to do it.

My family is pretty good. They understand our reasons for living overseas, recognize the incredible "out of school" education that my sons are getting, and marvel at the organizational skills necessary to do the "power shopping" that goes on each summer. They ask questions about the places we have traveled and ask questions to try to get a "sense" of our day-to-day lives. Now - saying all that - they are THRILLED that we are moving back.

My husband's family, however, can't even begin to understand why we did what we did. The fact that even in the US, my DH lived 1000 miles away from the rest of his family (most of whom are in the same small town) was baffling to them. With the exception (to some degree) of my MIL and one aunt, no one is interested in our travels. No one is interested in our daily lives. A new Wal-Mart down the road gets more enthusiasm than our trip to China. They just can't relate.

I am glad that when we return to the US this summer, I will be living in an area where I already have several friends - all of whom have been expats. In fact, my sons are already talking about a reunion party for all our Cairo and Baku friends. But - gotta get a house first!!!!!

We were not allowed to bring foodstuffs in our container. I had a huge spice cabinet and a 3 month supply of "emergency food" that I wanted to bring but couldn't. It worked out for the best because spices and herbs are actually very inexpensive here and I don't know where I would put my 3 month supply of food! It's hard enough putting away a weeks' worth of groceries!

We were able to bring spices in our shipment and while the spices available here are cheaper than in the US - there are still some things I can't seem to find.

All the food stuff I buy each summer I just bring back in my suitcases/boxes.

When I referred to "consumables" above - I wasn't thinking so much of food items as other "stuff" that you use up. I have friends who brought their own detergent, toilet paper, baggies/ziplock bags, decorative paper plates and napkins, candles, paper lunch bags, medicines, toiletries, etc.

Hi,

We stocked up on consumables before heading over as well. We were allowed to bring over new foodstuff, although I brought very little of that with me.
It was mostly things like diapers, baby wipes, shampoo, razor blades, lotion, vitamins, OTC medicine, more diapers, ziploc bags, etc. I'm very, very glad we did so. It has been a huge relief not to have to shop for those items, and not to have to fork out $90 for a box of diapers (yet).

My hubby and I moved to London, UK Aug 2007 and absolutely love it! We were lucky in that the company I work for moved us and set us up with relocation specialists to work with us to find housing. We ended up in a great flat across from Clapham Common.

Some thoughts:

1. Culture shock. I think when you move to an English speaking country you think everything will be the same. This is not the case. When you do day to day things, like grocery shopping, or going to the bank the process seems the same, but at random points it diverges from what you are used to and it still throws me. The banking system in the UK is so much more onerous that the CDN system…to get access to everything you need PINS sent through the mail, I didn’t get access to online banking for a month…in Canada you get it same day! Grocery stores are set up differently and they don’t have the same products…I would kill for some spaghetti squash! So I would say that expect all the day to day things to take much longer than you expect and be patient.

2. Missing home. The only thing I really miss is food related. The peanut butter here is more like organic peanut butter, not the sugary stuff back at home. Also ketchup tastes different and the restaurants are different. Meat/fish tastes different so the McDonalds etc also tastes different. They also have different plastic zip lock bags etc…so its all those little things. One weird thing I found was that they don’t put twist ties on the bread here…they have a plastic sticky strip that wont re-close!!!!

3. Language. Even though we speak English we speak different English. Words that are the same don’t mean the same thing…pants for example. Pants in N. America = trousers in England. Pants are the items you wear under your trousers. Can be awkward if you compliment someone on their pants!

All in all, we love it. There have been some challenging moments, but its so exciting and the travel is amazing. Plus the vacation time, its 5 weeks here…don’t know if can go back to 3!!!

Ziploc Bags! Oh, if I had known the difference . . . I would have brought a case. I would have also brought glad press n seal.

I like your lists of other things as well. So many things, like medicine for your child, you want to have on hand, rather than braving the "chemist" in a high stress situation.

BKP - Sometimes I felt like I could have opened my own Eckerd's!!!! I took everything I could think of that my kids MIGHT need. And I took a lot of stuff for us as well.

I eventually learned that there were a lot of things available in Cairo that were just great (we could get medicine at any pharmacy with out a formal prescription) but they didn't have a lot of "children's" meds.

Over the years I have adjusted my list of over-the-counter stuff.....but small-sized Advil/Tylenol tablets, NyQuil and DayQuil, PeptoBismol, Bactine, cough medicine, and vitamins are still on my list!

Gee - I don't know what I'm going to do when I get back. I am so used to buying "in bulk" it will be VERY strange to just buy ONE bottle of something!!!

Oh - CLING WRAP!!!! I have brought back SOO much of that because the plastic wrap we get here is garbage!!!!!!!

Jamikins - I am canadian also and moved to dublin when my boyfriend got offered a scholarship to Trinity college. So many of the points you made are exactly the things that boggle me!

I can't get over the banking system. It took my BF like 2 weeks to get an account set up. He was very confused when they asked if he wanted an ATM card or a Debit card as in Canada they are the same thing.
Then to get me on as a joint account was a pain as well.
I don't understand the whole PIN number in the mail thing. Not sure how that is more secure!? And the online access requries you to verify either your phone number or your birthdate. Well the phone number one works fine, but it dosen't recognized either of our brith dates!

I find the smaller size grocery stores challeneging too when you want to cook something with lots of ingerdients, and the very small produce section. I tried to explain to someone that the Fortinos' produce section at home is larger than the Tesco on my street - they just couldnt' fathom it!

Mostly I miss food related things too. Eating out in Canada seems so much cheaper now compared to here!

Overall though it's been a great experience it's just funny the things you miss.
However I do like going to the store almost every day. Dinners/snacks are more fresh, and i like visiting an actual butcher rather than the meat counter in the canadian supermakets.

I'm sure though the grass is always greener on the other side of the ocean.

The other thing that is different is the hours of operation!!! Most stores are not open Sundays or for late night shopping. Grocery stores are only allowed by law to open for 6 hours on Sunday, so after 5 you are out of luck!! Cant tell you how many times we have needed something for dinner on Sunday and dont think about it until 5:15pm.

They also use the 24 hour clock here (even my digital alarm clock is 24 hour) and the dates are day month year, where in Vancouver we used month day year. SO when I am booking flights I always triple check!

Oh dont even get me started on the banking. To do a bank transfer over £1000 you need to bring in your passport...my friend and his wife moved here in Sept and his wife still doenst have a PIN for her bank card and relies on her hubby to give her cash!

Funny how it really is the little things hahahahaha!

jamikins, the very things you mention I also have problems with but in reverse!
Naturally it's as much a culture shock moving to US from UK.
Banking took a while to sort out and forever to establish credit. Cheques/checks are written slightly differently and I missed the security of my PIN.

After 3 years here my doctor asked why I was still giving my kids British OTC medications when they were sick. I was just more familiar with them! I knew the correct dosages, didn't need to read the labels and didn't have to spend ages searching for the right meds at the drug store/pharmacy.

You definitely adapt eventually and after 6 years there are now things I miss about the US when visiting the UK...

I've also experienced the lack of interest in my expat life that so many have mentioned but have come to accept that travel is a bug for the chosen few.
One thing I found really funny was when I asked locals in Massachusetts where to go 'leaf peeping' and all I got was disinterest... one said 'My backyard looks good'. Best beach on the Cape? They always went to the one their family had been going to for xxxx years and didn't know any others.
My 'local' knowledge is now better than the average travel disinterested local and I'm very occasionally asked for advice. ;0

Forgot to mention the 24 hour clock.
It's just less confusing for me (no am or pm to add). However, we have been left stranded by a taxi driver who thought 18.00 was 8pm (it had an 8 in int....!)so I understand others find it tricky!

I've noticed that it's not just different words for things that can cause confusion regarding the meaning but just having a different accent or emphasis changes the way we're understood. Humour is sometimes missed or misunderstood. Maybe I need closed captioning sometimes...?

Great thread...I, also, am a Canadian and an ex-ex-pat, that is living back in Canada now afer living away in Italy.

Perhaps it is because we are older (mid-fifties) and our Italian experiences are recent. But we found friends not only receptive to our tales of life faraway, but fascinated and downright envious. We have dined out many times on 'the different nature of female friendships' or 'the frustration of direspectful line-ups' or 'how the local butcher became the other man in my life'.

We still get invited out so we can't be THAT boring...is it a Canadian thing?

Oh this is good stuff--I'm adding to my list! I do remember the ziplock bags over there being crap, these press and seal things were the only thing I could find at Sainsburys. I'm going to try and embrace some of the differences, but ziplock bags is not one of them! We have a 40 foot container, plus 600 pounds via air each way, but we're a family of 5 so that will fill up quickly. We move in 8 weeks and 1 day!!!

I've found good ziploc bags at Ikea. Most of the others I've seen are pretty pathetic.

samtraveler - one of the things I wish I had stocked up on were printer cartridges. They are INCREDIBLY expensive here and I just shudder every time I need one!!!!

There will be "new" things that you will get used to and love!!! My older son was mentioning tonight that he is going to miss the lavash (a VERY thin, tortilla-like bread) and the other fresh made bread that you get here in the middle of nowhere.

More on stuff to bring from the U.S.:

Ziploc bags...oh yes! If I had only known, I would have brought a case!

We were allowed to pack non-perishable food items in our air shipment so I brought a box full of spices (the typical herbs are readily available in Germany but I brought ones for Indian and Asian cooking that I thought might be harder to come by), as well as some more unusual items like soba noodles, coconut milk, low-sodium soy sauce, fish sauce, and other favorite sauces & condiments. Some of these items I ended up finding at the Markthalle in downtown Stuttgart but they were very expensive. There are also plenty of Asian markets where I could have gotten these items, so in retrospect it wasn't necessary to bring them, but it was nice to have them at the beginning.

Oh yes, and Nestle Tollhouse chocolate chips! Europeans seem to love chocolate chip cookies but apparently Nestle hasn't figured that out yet.

On the way back to the U.S. we were allowed absolutely NO food or alcohol in our air shipment, so I had to offload or throw out a lot of stuff - including some of the spices I had brought over with me in the first place.

We also brought a ton of medicines and bathroom supplies like shampoo, shower gel, make-up, etc. We didn't bring a 2-year supply of everything, but wanted some of these "comfort" products for the first few months while we were getting settled in. Sometimes it's the little things that are the most important in those first crazy weeks - like having your usual face products that you've used for years! On our trips back home I actually kept buying some of these products and bringing them back to Germany with me because I never did find acceptable substitutes.

When we're home in the summers - I let each of my boys pick out 1 thing of toothpaste, shower gel, and deodorant to bring back. All those things, of course, are available - but the options (and flavors/scents) in the US are much more numerous!

Makeup is also readily available, but I am very fair-skinned and the local women have much darker skin, so finding products that work for me is difficult.

Contact lens solution (saline only/or all-in-one) seemed to be terribly expensive in both Italy and the UK: stock up before you leave. My brand in Canada can be found for between $7.00 and $10.00 here and cost me 8-9 Euro ($14CDN)in the local farmacia in Italy and 9 pounds($18CDN)! in London. (Sorry I don't know how to do the symbols!)

I want to calmly read this thread over the weekend, the info seems to be priceless to those considering the move!

Great thread. I say let's have a GTG! Wouldn't that be a load of fun? Smiles. Happy Travels!

If I had to pick the one thing (as opposed to person) that I miss most about the U.S., it would be front porches and porch swings (ok that's two things, but they go together).

Nothing beats summer nights sitting on a porch swing talking quietly with a friend or family member, watching the fireflies, enjoying the breeze, a dog dozing at your feet, and the sound of crickets chirping in the background.

The house I grew up in wasn't anything grand, but we had a GREAT front porch with a beautiful view, a swing and a six-foot long glider.

BTilke: Come on over and enjoy my porch swing any time and bring the dog to join mine. I will provide the wine and the peanut M&M's (not necessarily at the same time but in abundance. You have just described my perfect summer evening. J

Another thought. The trailing spouse isn't always the spouse (sig other, whomever might be coming along) who's following his or her spouse who has a job overseas. In our situation it would be very unlikely my husband would be taking this kind of overseas assignment without my eager encouragement. I'm the travel lover in the family. Over the years he has grown to love it too, but for him it's more of an aquired taste than an intrinsic one. In our situation I definitely don't feel like the trailing spouse. Gratefully we're both very much into this opportunity, but if anyone is trailing it's him!

Grcxx3,

I am so glad you mentioned the carpets. I am dying to ask you if there is easy access from Azerbaijan to Iranian carpets, as well as copper and other tribal arts from Iran. I don't know what the country relations are at the moment, except that millions of Azeris live in Northwestern Iran and probably communicate regularly.

I am fluent in Russian and have been planning a visit to Azerbaijan, and possibly, other Middle-Asian countries, for a while. Going into Iran, of course, is out of the question for the forseeable future..

But collecting textile and copper artifacts would be one of the primary purposes of the trip, so any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated.

-enroute

PS. I apologize for diverting the thread, but I just couldn't resist this one....

-e

BTilke, I'm back in the U.S. and still don't have a front porch or porch swing. Those are high on my list for my next house.

samtraveler, I'm with you! My husband had only been to Europe on two previous trips and was a bit overwhelmed by the prospect of actually living there, whereas I had spent a semester in France in college and couldn't wait to spend an extended period of time in Europe. In the end it all worked out very well for both of us.

enroute, my husband has a good friend who is Iranian and he's always inviting us to come visit his beautiful country! (His latest idea was that we should go skiing there...I wasn't really thrilled about the idea of having to ski on separate runs from my husband...)

hausfrau,

If I knew I could, I would in a heartbeat, especially to Isfahan, but presently, somehow may not be prudent for a Jewish American woman

enroute- just bring a chador to the slopes and no one will know. hausfrau- congrats!!

enroute - Iranian carpets (the classic Persian styles) are readily available in Baku. I have purchased carpets from Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Armenia (altho - technically it was Azeri) and Azerbaijan. I have both pile and flat weave Azeri carpets. The trick is that you have to buy the carpet and then have the carpet shop arrange for a certificate to take it out of the country. That can take a few days (shorter for more $$!), so you need to plan accordingly.

As for copper - I don't know if that stuff I have seen is from Iran. There is a place up north of Baku towards the mountains that is known for it's copper, so a lot of what I see might be from there. I have not purchased any copper yet (still have 2 weeks!) because up until now there was a real problem getting it out of the country. However, that doesn't seem to be a problem anymore - so I'm off to buy! I bought a lot when I lived in Egypt, so I don't want much....just a little!

As for visiting Iran - I have a friend who is going on a hiking trip to Iran next month, but he is Irish and there isn't a problem. There have been many of the British and Canadian guys who have gone skiing there and loved it. I also know lots of people who to to Georgia skiing - good slopes, good wine!

Grcxx3,

Thank you very much for these great insights. I have been wondering about that for years. So glad to hear carpets are readily available. Now will look forward to some shopping, hopefully soon.. I have been to Georgia and the Abkhazia coast in particular, and have fond memories of those vacations. And though I am not much of a drinker, Georgian wines are one of my favorites, esp. Kindzmarauli and Ahasheni.

Thanks again and enjoy the remainder of your stay!

-e

Schuba, now that's a thought. If I could just learn to shut up.......

thank you everyone for sharing these experience! i've learned a great deal from this thread. i now have another question. in most cases (save for one or two), it is the men who get the expat posting and it is the wives who are the "trailing" spouses. can anyone share experiences (personal or of other people you know) how it works when the wive gets the ob/posting overseas and husband is the "trailing" spouse? do men tend to stay in US continuing with their job, do the quit and move, do they wait till they also get a transfer? how does it affect the relationship?
also, most clubs mentions were women's clubs. are there similar organizations for men?
i may be in this position soon and have many things to think about.

lerasp -- welcome to the thread! All of the expats I know are working men with their wives as the "trailing spouse." I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but at least my post will send this back to the top in case any one else knows of any other examples. Good luck!

I love this thread, thank you for starting the discussion. I really appreciate how thoughtful and kind the conversations are. I moved from Indonesia to the US when I was 15, when my mom married my American stepdad. I really struggled to adjust to living here probably for the first two years. Cried myself to sleep too many nights to count.

I survived High School and adjusted much better in college. I made friends, enjoyed college, graduated, got a great job, and I have been living here for about 16 yrs now. I can't imagine moving back to Indonesia permanently.

I have been back twice now and feels like an outsider in Indonesia in many ways. I still have "slight" accents when I speak English, and definitely have "American" accents when I speak Indonesian or Javanese. And I definitely can not get around on my own in Jakarta.

I don't think that a lot of people understand that it is tough sometimes to realize that I don't have a perfect mastery in ONE language. While I have put myself through almost ten years of schooling in English (HS, Engr School, Business School), I still run into words that I don't understand in English. And yet when I go back to Indonesia, it is worse now.

My soon to be DH was born and raised in Missouri and has never really travelled outside of the US much (except Canada) until we met. He has been very vocal about wanting to be an expat (to me and his boss). And his boss has actually asked him if he was serious, and DH was glad and quick to say yes, if my fiance (me) also is offered a position.

I think there are comments from previous posters about how the "attractive expat package" has slowly diminished. With the Euro being so strong, the only places that we can still potentially be sent to would be India, China, or Brazil - the areas where our company still looks to grow.

While he continues to want this expat opportunity, and I will support us-whatever that means, I have been reflecting a lot on the move that I took 16 yrs ago, so this post really hits home to me. I used to miss Indonesian food so much that it hurts, especially since there just isn't any available in the area that I happen to live in. But now I also miss the big oversized fancy American salad after a week trip to Spain. I miss Peanut Butter. French Fries. Ice with my Diet Coke! God forbid-cheeseburger and fries (especially after trips to India or Nigeria).

But we also know that right now is the perfect time to do it before we have kids...So much to think about!

lerasp,

I have met a number of women who brought along their husbands as trailing spouses. The men at my daughter's school in this position have their own lunch group that meets once a month.

One man we know became an expert at assembling IKEA furniture and kept busy that way.

Others have taken over the housework and childrearing.

Seems to work for some and not for others, just like the traditional woman as trailing spouse does.

Good luck and check the ex-pat boards for more info on this.

gruezi

h2babe,

Thank you for your very touching post. I will share it with my teenagers.

Best wishes to your and your fiance.

I meet so many young people that are what are now called "3rd Culture Kids" and it is an interesting phenomenon to say the least.

In the tiniest way, I empathize with your feelings, because I know a part of me will forever in the future think about certain things I like better about Switzerland, just like there are certain things about America I prefer and miss.

Funny how food plays such a role in our memories and comfort levels!

Hopefully you will get that intl assignment!

gruezi

regarding trailing spouses....

There are several women at my DH's company who have the more "powerful" (using that term very loosely...please no one get huffy!) and the men have other jobs within the company. Other men are teachers and have taken teaching jobs at the various international schools.

In addition, I have known several couples where the husband was a bit older than the wife. The hubby retires, but the wife keeps working, and the hubby finds something fun and interesting to do. One is a SAHD (stay at home dad), one set up a computing consultant business, one went to work for a travel agency and specialized in expat travel, one volunteered to set up after-school sports programs, and one decided he wanted to help out at the school and became a very popular Kindergarten assistant!

On another note......I HATE the organization/preparation needed before packing out!!!!! AUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lerasp raises a very good question...now that I think about it, in my 2.5 years in Stuttgart, I didn't encounter a single expat couple in which the man was the trailing spouse! Best to leave the "why" discussion for another forum, I suppose.

Expatica.com does have a regular blogger named R.W. Dooley (www.expatica.com/de/life_in/blog_list.html) who may have gone over as a trailing spouse - I haven't read all of his blogs and I'm not quite sure of the details of his situation, but he teaches English part-time. That seems to be a pretty common occupation for trailing spouses who want to continue working.

As for men's groups - good question! There are certainly expat social organizations in many larger cities, which would be your best resource for finding other men in a similar situation.

gruezi, I love the idea of someone making a living assembling IKEA furniture! We could have used his services when we left Germany and had to dispose of an entire house-full of IKEA furnishings!

h2babe, thanks for a wonderful post from the opposite perspective. I wish you luck in making your decision with your DH about an expat opportunity. Yes, you will miss things about America, but it's only temporary!

My hubby is a trailing spouse. I originally got my post through my prior company and my hubby followed me.

However, he has a settlement visa as I have my UK passport.

Some things I noted:

1. Lack of support. My company had all kinds of induction training with fellow secondees where I was able to meet people and socialize. He did not have this so it was a bit more difficult for him to find friends (outside the ones I met of course)

2. Job hunting. He had to pound the pavement as the company I was with did not provide any support for spouses looking for work. It took about a month to find a job which was quite frustrating as I was already working.

Those are the two big things that I can think of.

Jamie

There's a very good thread about this on the English Forum for expats in Switzerland. Lots of tips from and for expats living in Switzerland.

http://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/26224-tips-trailing-spouses.html#post249435

Mr frogoutofwater and I have both lived abroad several times (separately, before we met) and then together in Paris for a couple of years. We loved living in Paris, but work was problematic. Mr frogoutofwater was the trailing spouse, and was unable to find work for two years in Paris even though he was entitled to get a fast-track work visa - he just couldn't get a single French employer to even consider him for a job (and he works in IT). I had a prestigious job, but ended up being very disappointed with the work experience - and so was quite happy to leave at the end of our 2-year contract. We also decided that we wanted to return to North America and live closer to our parents, because of concerns about their frailty. (While we were in Paris, my mother was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer and died within 6 weeks of diagnosis.) We haven't returned to Canada (yet),though. We've landed in New York, which is a good city for both of our careers.

We are currently living in London and have for 4 wonderful years with two more to go. Yes, we miss some of the American conveniences and the way we do things in the US but England is so easy due to the language mostly but what I love the most is the public transportation! I absolutely get enraged when I think how we have messed up on our own transportation planning or lack there of. Also traveling to Europe is just about the best thing - we have been all over. In fact we are leaving for Provence this Friday for 3 weeks! In two years we will make our way back to the states and settle in Maui. I will miss London very much when we finally have to say goodbye.

Hey,

This thread is normal-sized again for me! Fodor's magic, I love it!

gruezi

Hey -- just thought I would bump this to the top to see how people spent their 4ths? It was our first 4th out of the country. While I am extremely grateful for my country and proud of its accomplishments and potential for greatness, I'm not always proud of its leadership and some aspects of its culture. I didn't really think the 4th would make me sad. We were invited to an expat party. They went the whole 9 yards -- burgers, root beer, fireworks, even found American flags for their planter boxes. After they lit the first firework and the sulfur smell drifted down to us we all took a deep breath and thought "oh that smells like home!" It was probably the most homesick I've been since we moved! Isn't it funny what we miss?

So -- did anyone else do anything fun to remember their homeland? And, I apologize to any expats that aren't American if this post makes assumptions and generalizations!

We had grilled steaks, roast potatoes, corn on the cob and fresh strawberries for dinner and afterwards lit a few sparklers. Then we watched the Berlin 4th of July fireworks on Euronews (to celebrate the opening of the new U.S. embassy in Berlin).

However, in all honesty, we had our American style grillathon on Friday the 4th not so much to celebrate the holiday but because it was supposed to rain the rest of the week-end. (Which it did, but only sporadically, unlike yesterday's day-long soaker.)

Got very drunk, ate ribs and mac and cheese, and ran around South Kensington singing 'yankee doodle dandy'. I'm not kidding about any of this I was also wearing red, white, and blue

As I sorted through my holiday decorations this week in preparation for our move from California to London, I did wonder how we would celebrate the Fourth of July next year. I made sure to include a little something to decorate for each holiday while away. I wonder what Christmas will be like in London.

We move in one week. One week!!!!

Just a view from a non American expat - or expat of sorts. Our home is now Spain, was Australia. However as neither of us are allowed to work here, my work in other parts of the world funds this home and not working here probably skews my perspective somewhat.

We have only been here just over a year so I expect our thoughts may change over time. Am I aching to return home - emphatically no. Do I even want to go for a visit -not particularly. Am I passionate about this country - emphatically yes and right now am so happy we managed to make a move to Europe.

There are few things I miss and no important ones - it is difficult to buy certain food ingredients for example. It takes much longer to do things here - combination of the slower pace of life, the general bureaucracy, the specific stuff we face as non EU citizens and the language barriers.

We are asked a lot if we will ever go back to Australia and I find that an almost impossible question to answer. We have no plans to - but so hard to know what will happen or how we will feel as we get older - now 50´s.

What has made it easier I think - no school age children (one adult child in Aust), no parents and not especially close or large families. We had also moved away from our home state in Australia 10 years before which had already put distance between us and many family and friends.

sam -- are you super excited?
Holidays are a bit different here and you're wise to plan ahead. I think I read earlier on this thread that you have 3 young kids? It's probably too early in the states but if you can find them you might want to bring your own Halloween costumes. Sometimes you can find them really early at places like JoAnn's. We found the pickings to be pretty slim. Princesses for girls, random animals for boys. Some more if your children want to be Disney characters. Living in London you might have a bigger selection than we did out here in the suburbs. Your expectations of Halloween night should also be adjusted. No pillowcases full of candy at our house! We trick or treated on our street and only went to 4 houses. I've heard that it's catching on here -- but it is nothing like the States.

If you need pumpkin pie for Thanksgiving you might want to bring your own pumpkin pie filling. I heard rumors of being able to find some but had no luck.

We found Christmas to be more laidback here. Less "hustle and bustle." Without Thanksgiving there is no "Black Friday" and therefore no "On your marks, get set, GO!!!!!" That could have just been our impression though, going from a huge family back to home to all on our own here.

Good luck -- may your move be easy, may nothing break, and may your fridge be big enough.

Sam -- I doubt you will check this thread before your big move but I thought I would throw out one more bit of advice -- taco seasoning. We weren't allowed to ship food, including spices in either our air or sea shipment. But, if I knew then what I knew now about UK taco seasoning (it is NOT the same) I would have brought a costco size container in my luggage on the plane. In fact, when we went home to visit a few months later that was first on my list of things to bring back with me.

Hope everything is going well.

Good mention on the taco seasoning! We were able to buy it in our local stores - but a single pack of El Paso Taco Seasoning would cost me almost $3!!!! So I generally brought a bunch back with me each summer.

Another thing, when I make chili I use Chili Powder, but I always brought it from the US because the chili powder I would see in our overseas stores was different.

You know, you'd think I wouldn't have time to check the site again! I don't really, but here I am. It's good to sit down every now and then and take deep breaths during all of this craziness! I love your advice. And it's really too funny because last week I went and bought 20 packets of taco seasoning (my moving company will move food products). AND my husband is at the grocery store right now buying cans of pure pumpkin! I had wondered about Halloween. If I had more time I'd look into getting costumes, but at this point I'm just going to have to wait and see what I can find in London.

Anyway, yes I'm super excited! Despite the fact that we're in the middle of pure chaos right now, I can still feel the excitement. I can't wait to get on the plane! Thanks for your words of encouragement!

Topping

This is been a great read! I loved hearing about all of your diverse experiences.

It is fitting, as I am meeting a group of my old pals from my overseas high school tomorrow for an informal mini-reunion.

My connection to this topic is I am an adult from the U.S. who lived overseas twice while growing up; my dad was transferred to Tokyo when I was in elementary school and to Taipei when I was in high school. We also traveled extensively around the world during/after those years.

Some random thoughts on the experiences(sorry if I ramble!):

My parents had lived in Japan previously and my dad spoke Japanese and had Japanese friends; while my brothers and I went to International schools where English was the teaching language, we were fairly immersed culturally due to dad's love of the country.

We had a big family (grandmother, great-grandmother plus three kids plus pets) and Tokyo had/has a huge international community.

My mom had worked in the US but was able to make lots of social connections in Tokyo with International clubs, lessons in various Japanese cultural things, our schools, & church. Dad speaking the language really helped make their friendships w/ the locals work.

Things that were challenging for her were shopping for food, dealing with a freezing cold house, and taking care of her grandmother (in her 90s). What helped were some of the great friends she made in the International community, and being able to have some household help.

As a kid, I was young enough to not mind moving there; Japan was a fantastic place for kids and we all did well there (have to say I didn't love my school, but I did make great friends).

Biggest problem - moving back to the US. The re-entry culture shock was painful and I didn't feel like I fit in. We moved to a state we had not lived in before and the adjustment was hard for all of us, actually.

The transfer to Taipei was more difficult for me than Japan. I has just started high school and had begun to make friends. According to my mom, I was a huge pain in the a** during that transition. Not the easiest age to move, IMO.

One brother was already in college and the other also in high school. I think he had an even harder time than me at first. Oh, still one grandmother moved with us - and pets!

Taiwan proved harder for my mom - she made wonderful friends, again, mostly through the international community but also some local people through my dad's job. But she never had quite the love of the country as she did for Japan. Dealing with running the household was harder; constant hassles with things failing and falling apart, like plumbing. Taiwan was not the sophisticated place it is now - grocery shopping included the local markets which are not all that charming once you get into the meat area (all the hanging carcasses and live frogs, etc).

But we kids ended up loving it and my mom found her niche. I made great lifelong friends (as per my reunion this week) and loved the natural beauty of the country at that time. It was not easy to make friends with local kids - foreigners could only go to the American school or a couple of Catholic schools in high school (although I have friends who did go to the local elementary schools) but we did jump into the local culture as much as possible. It was kind of a magical time in my life.

In conclusion - my siblings and I would not trade growing up that way for anything. All of us our travelers (my oldest brother just moved back to the US after 18 years in Hong Kong) and work in fields that allow us to maintain international connections. We all feel at home in the world, not just in our native country.

My parents - the drawback for them, I think, is that they never made the same kind of dear friends back here in the US. In their old age - now - they do have some friends, but their remaining 'best' friends are scattered around the country and around the world. That is not easy, but they never say they regret the life they had.

<<The re-entry culture shock>>

Yup - that's what we're going through right now!!!!!!

Besides the culture shock - the COST of getting settled back in the US is astounding! We've been gone seven years - so in addition to buying a house (and all the costs associated with that) and 2 cars (don't forget that tax, title, and license!)...... we need major appliances, some furniture, new bedding (including mattresses and pillows), and lawn equipment!!!!! Then there is all the pantry and cleaning stuff to restock!!!!!

The money just seems to be pouring out of the pockets!!!!

Grcxx3 -

Yes, I remember the first 3-4 months in Zurich and how much money we just spent and spent. I'm not frugal by any means (husband is) but even I was a bit freaked out by it all.

It does settle down and before long you will just be buying groceries and new sneakers for the growing boys.

I just returned to Zurich Monday from 3 weeks away and I have such mixed emotions. What a joy to see my girlfriends and talk, talk, talk. I do miss my close friendships!! And, the food!!! We ate all our favorites and it was such a pleasure - and everything seemed so cheap!! Plus, it was nice to wait in lines with no one cutting ahead and to hear people saying, "excuse me" and all the natural friendliness we miss.

OTOH, I joined a rowing club here, and tonight the lake was simply gorgeous. The woman I rowed with happened to be a nurse and offered to bring my resume to her job. That was a first. Afterward, I walked up the "hill" behind our house and watched an amazing sunset over the mountain and lake. Switzerland is beautiful and I intend to suck up all the scenery this next 9 months before we move on. I'm lonely sometimes, but I'm not tired of being in Europe yet.

Plus, I have a daughter entering 12th grade and you just can't avoid the whole college obsession in the US. I feel so lucky to be sheltered from it all here. A few of my US friends asked if they could live with me until senior year is over....

Well, I promised myself I would stay off Fodor's all week - at least I made it 3 days!

gruezi

>Plus, I have a daughter entering 12th grade and you just can't avoid the whole college obsession in the US.

Come on Grüezi, the city you live in contains a university which is among the top 10 in the world - and not difficult at all to get in!

I'm returning to the US tomorrow for a 3 week visit. I'm looking forward to improving my continuously decreasing English vocabulary. While gabbing away with my family, I'll not only be catching up on the latest but listening for new words and phrases.

I'm so looking forward to seeing all my US relatives and friends again and I'm hoping for a dry spell during my stay in Washington State.

First stop in the States: Safeway! Got to get my maple bars and a box of blueberries.

schuler -- are you from Washington originally? I grew up outside of Seattle. I have to admit -- a nice warm, summer in Seattle afternoon does sound nice . . .

Hi BPK,

Yup, Olympia.

I used to go to Enumclaw a lot too.

It's interesting to read about home leave trips right now as I begin my journey living overseas. We arrived in London yesterday. The last week home was a ridiculous frenzy, but we managed to get everything done and even left our house pristine for our new tenants (not counting that they'll return it in the same condition, but it was an attempt to set a precedent). The flight over and transit from Heathrow to our temporary flat was smooth (thank you business class!). The first night was rough. Toddler and five year-old were wide awake all night despite repeated efforts to get them to sleep. Discovering idiosyncrasies of our flat and realizing how much our home in Orange County felt like living in the country compared to this, we are trying to adapt. When I finally dozed off to sleep I awoke suddenly in the middle of the night in a freight. Did we really move to London? Can we undo this? We are crazy! Right now it's a bit painful. I'm tired. I long for normalcy. Tomorrow I hit the streets with an agent to find our more permanent home. Gosh, I hope we find something soon! While our temporary flat is decent enough, it's not where we can call home. I long for home. I can't wait to establish that here. Until then I imagine I might wake in the middle of the night a time or two more with sudden pits in my stomach over what we have done. Arriving at our destination we fully realize that this is a journey.

sam -- hang in there! Make as much use of your agent as possible. Ours was wonderful. We had a hard time knowing what we wanted to see because we didn't know what there WAS to see. Instead, we talked more about who we were and what our desired lifestyle would be. She deduced from that exactly what we needed without us even being able to articulate it!

I had our "what in the world are we doing" moment at the airport before we even left the states. I started nervously (ok, maybe hysterically) laughing and it took a while to calm me down.

My only bit of advice -- make your home here. This IS where you live so this IS where home will be. I also created a little mantra that I would repeat when I was frustrated with life here, when I felt guilty about transporting my son here, etc. "30 minutes to London, 90 minutes to Paris, 2 1/2 hours to Rome . . ." No matter what you can't get here -- you can't get flight times like that from the West Coast! Good luck!

Hi Sam,

Well, give yourself time and sleep and all will seem much better.

I have to laugh because even after 18 months I occasionally lie in bed thinking, "am I really living in Switzerland? How did this happen?" Somedays it makes me smile and be excited, other days it's a bit scary.

I think with little ones in tow, a first priority is to find some childcare help so you can get things done and also so you can have a break. Perhaps a neighbor can help you with this.

Also, if you don't like your agent, find a new one immediately. This person will be your lifeline the first few months so you need someone nice, helpful and knowledgeable.

Hang in there - keep posting - all will be well!

gruezi

Well at nearly two weeks into our expat life here in London I happily report things are going much better than my last post. We are all finally adjusted to the eight-hour time change. It did take a little more than a week, though. I am convinced that it takes one day for each hour you've changed. It's amazing what a difference getting sleep makes!

Our temporary flat is really something of a joke, so tiny, noisy and while well positioned in the center of London, it's no place for a family. I'm sure some young secretary at the firm thought she was doing us a favor, but with kids everything is different. We are making the best of it, but anxious to move on.

So far we have had a wonderful experience with our estate agent. I was grateful for the advice I've received here and from others, though. You need to be honest and frank. He has listened and I've been very pleased with how things have gone. We are in the process of signing a tenancy agreement right now and hope to be moved into our new digs in about 10 days! I'm very happy with it. It's actually about the same space we had at home (coming from California), minus a whole lot of storage. It's perfectly located and we stuck to budget, so we couldn't be happier!

Life here is a lot more work. Okay I'm sure it's even more work now living as temporaries, but we're finding our way. I'm done with hauling groceries down the street. I'm an online grocery shopping convert. I could have kissed the young chap who brought up armfuls of groceries up to my flat this week.

We took tours of both the kids' schools, which was so much fun. They are both so excited. Though we wished they had spaces available for them to attend the same school, I'm very happy with the options for each. My son is excited to be wearing a uniform and thinks he is like Harry Potter.

Our bodies are dealig with new germs. We've all been sick, some twice, since arriving. We've already been to the doctor twice. The only silver lining there is that it has expedited our knowledge of how to utilize the UK health system.

While we are a long way from being settled, we are feeling the joy of our new life. I'm sure we will have many moments of frustration ahead, but this is truly an amazing experience. We are already mentally planning a trip down somewhere in southern Europe for spring break. Decisions, decisions.

Hi Sam,

Glad this week is going better. I think you did really well on adjusting to the jet lag. It took us 2 weeks to get back on schedule after our trip home this summer.

Sounds like you have gotten a lot done already between a flat, groceries and the schools.

One thing I was told after our move that really helped me was not to compare what I was "accomplishing" here with what got done back home. At home you had a lot of years to put together the life you had. "Here" everything has to be started from zero and in a new culture and new place without friends or relatives to help.

Thanks for your update and good luck with the start of school!

gruezi

Hello again everyone...I'm so glad this post is still up and alive! I'm back to report that I was asked last week whether I would be interested in an expat assignment that may last up to 2-3 yrs... to Russia! My boss was approached about his willingness to release me from my current assignment- and he was still hesitated to say yes.

Of course, I said yes (with DH nodding rigorously in the background), but it's all still speculation at this point. I still need to meet with some of the folks who are involved in this project, so the chance of us going is still 50-50. Plus it may be another 3-6 months before it actually happens, if it happens... But we're excited with the slightest thought that we may have the opportunity after all. Wish us luck, and we'll be back to report on any updates.

P.S.: DH's family was shocked that we would even consider doing such thing. In her own words, this is what my mother in law said: "Well, I guess there wouldn't be any grand kids in the next few years."

hf2babe - that's so exciting! We were supposed to go to Moscow this past summer (for a 3 year assignment) but things got all messed up and it fell thru at the last minute - after kids were accepted into the school and everything. DH was really disappointed since he had been studying Russian for 3 years!

Hope it all works out for you!

I lived in London, Cairo, Jakarta and Moscow . . . came back to the US kicking and screaming every time!

yeah - after years in Cairo and Baku, we're not thrilled to be back either!!

Hi Grcxx,

How is re-entry going?

We are hoping to extend our time in Europe (or elsewhere) but don't know if we can. I started a job here and have my B permit so I know my older daughter can finish senior year here.

I'm just not ready to go back yet!

My younger daughter is in 9th grade and wants to stay in international school. Her words, "I miss my friends but I don't look forward to all the kids back home who think 'ourtowninCt' is the greatest place in the world"

Kids really change from these experiences.

I have thought about you and wondered how your boys are faring and what you are doing with yourself.

gruezi

h2babe -- that's really exciting -- congratulations! Do you mind if I ask if it's St. Petersburg or Moscow? Russia has never been on our radar but you never know where you can end up! Keep us posted, I'd love to hear how it all works out for you.

Grcxx -- our little family is headed off to Egypt and are spending a day (I know, only one day!) in Cairo. Any suggestions? We're going to hire Casual Cairo for a 1/2 day tour out to the Pyramids. The rest of the trip will be spent in El Gouna.

I love being an expat in London. I know that planes fly from the US to Egypt all the time, but because we're so close it can be just a quick beach vacation instead of a "we're only going to go once so we have to see it all in the two weeks vacation we have" not to mention losing all the time to jet lag!

Grc- do you have any tips on learning the language? We know for sure that this will be the first thing that we have to learn and get our arms around or we won't be effective at work.

BKP, it's actually in a small town near Kazakhstan border (I probably shouldn't say at this point). But I will definitely give you an update as it gets confirmed. It will probably take 3-6 months to get everything processed. One of my best friends is currently on an expat in Brazil, and it took her six months to get everything lined up. Yea, we are excited and absolutely grateful for the opportunity.

h2babe - wish I could offer suggestions on learning Russian, but I never did. However, what DH found the most beneficial was 2-3 private lessons each week. His was actually done (and paid for) at his office, but I am sure there are lots of private teachers around. Then he really took it seriously - studying most nights and on the weekends and attending the monthly "Russian Club" gatherings with his coworkers. The first few times he went he was really clueless, but within a year he was understanding the "gist" of the things that went on and by the end was a full participant.

Bottom line....learn and practice!