Am I correct that I don't need a rail pass for Italy?
Oct 20th, 2008, 05:48 PM
#1
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Am I correct that I don't need a rail pass for Italy?
We are a family of 5 from Australia (two adults, one 17 year old, one 12 year old and one 10 year old).
I have spent many hours reading Fodors threads about rail passes and have also looked at a number of sites for Italian rail passes that Australians can buy.
We only need to travel on Italian trains for 3 days:
1. Rome to Naples returning to Rome on 11th December 2008
2. Rome to Florence on 15th December.
3. Florence to Venice on 18th December.
Although the different companies selling railpasses have different cost structures and different rules, it appears to me (although in many cases I am comparing apples with pears) that the cheapest 3 day rail pass I can buy will cost over $1000 Australian for the 5 of us, excluding seat reservation fees.
When I look at the Trenitalia timetable I see that, using the Amica fare where available, we can travel as follows:
1. Rome to Naples, returning to Rome on 11th December 2008 for 128.40 Euros (64.20 Euros each way, 2nd class on an ICplus train). 2nd class seems fine for this train as we won't have any luggage with us.
2. Rome to Florence on 15th December for 78.40 Euros 2nd class on an IC train. We could travel first class for 105.60 Euros but I'm not sure this is necessary. We will have all our luggage with us and may have to put it in the luggage area at the end of the carriage which I believe carries the associated risk of theft at intermediate stations. However, it doesn't look as though this train stops anywhere between Rome and Florence which negates this risk.
3. Florence to Venice on 18th December for 155.20 Euros first class on an A or ES* train. I thought first class for this train as we'll have all our luggage with us and it looks as though this train stops a few times along the way, and therefore the risk of it being stolen at intermediate sttaions becomes an issue.
This comes to a total of 362 Euros which is about $724 Australian.
If I am correct, the choice is easy - it is much cheaper to just buy the Amica fares through Trenitalia.
But am I missing something? Why are the rail passes at least 25% more expensive than booking the train journeys myself?
I have spent many hours reading Fodors threads about rail passes and have also looked at a number of sites for Italian rail passes that Australians can buy.
We only need to travel on Italian trains for 3 days:
1. Rome to Naples returning to Rome on 11th December 2008
2. Rome to Florence on 15th December.
3. Florence to Venice on 18th December.
Although the different companies selling railpasses have different cost structures and different rules, it appears to me (although in many cases I am comparing apples with pears) that the cheapest 3 day rail pass I can buy will cost over $1000 Australian for the 5 of us, excluding seat reservation fees.
When I look at the Trenitalia timetable I see that, using the Amica fare where available, we can travel as follows:
1. Rome to Naples, returning to Rome on 11th December 2008 for 128.40 Euros (64.20 Euros each way, 2nd class on an ICplus train). 2nd class seems fine for this train as we won't have any luggage with us.
2. Rome to Florence on 15th December for 78.40 Euros 2nd class on an IC train. We could travel first class for 105.60 Euros but I'm not sure this is necessary. We will have all our luggage with us and may have to put it in the luggage area at the end of the carriage which I believe carries the associated risk of theft at intermediate stations. However, it doesn't look as though this train stops anywhere between Rome and Florence which negates this risk.
3. Florence to Venice on 18th December for 155.20 Euros first class on an A or ES* train. I thought first class for this train as we'll have all our luggage with us and it looks as though this train stops a few times along the way, and therefore the risk of it being stolen at intermediate sttaions becomes an issue.
This comes to a total of 362 Euros which is about $724 Australian.
If I am correct, the choice is easy - it is much cheaper to just buy the Amica fares through Trenitalia.
But am I missing something? Why are the rail passes at least 25% more expensive than booking the train journeys myself?
Oct 20th, 2008, 06:05 PM
#3
A pass is rarely cost effective for Italy.
You're probably a bit off on your pricing because you are treating all as adults on the point-to-point tickets. The 12 and 10 year olds will get a child's rate unless the 12 year old turns 13 before you travel.
The ICPlus trains are slower so you will be sacrificing a bit of time (maybe only 20-30 minutes on these routes - chck schedules). The Circumvesuviana train (between Naples and Pompeii) isn't covered by a pass.
In addition, any pass you buy does not include seat reservations. On AV/ES/ICPlus trains they are mandatory (seats are included in the prices you find on Trenialia). With a pass, for AV/ES trains you will have to purchase the seats which are about 15€ each. The ICPlus seat reservations are a bit cheaper, about 3-5€.
You're probably a bit off on your pricing because you are treating all as adults on the point-to-point tickets. The 12 and 10 year olds will get a child's rate unless the 12 year old turns 13 before you travel.
The ICPlus trains are slower so you will be sacrificing a bit of time (maybe only 20-30 minutes on these routes - chck schedules). The Circumvesuviana train (between Naples and Pompeii) isn't covered by a pass.
In addition, any pass you buy does not include seat reservations. On AV/ES/ICPlus trains they are mandatory (seats are included in the prices you find on Trenialia). With a pass, for AV/ES trains you will have to purchase the seats which are about 15€ each. The ICPlus seat reservations are a bit cheaper, about 3-5€.
Oct 20th, 2008, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for the speedy replies Tom and Kybourbon.
Tom, thanks for confirming my suspicions - I thought profit might be a factor here, even though the agent I spoke to told me it isn't!
Kybourbon, I got the prices for the Trenitalia fares by using the Trenitalia site, selecting the Amica fare, 3 adults and 2 children. Have I done something wrong?
Tom, thanks for confirming my suspicions - I thought profit might be a factor here, even though the agent I spoke to told me it isn't!
Kybourbon, I got the prices for the Trenitalia fares by using the Trenitalia site, selecting the Amica fare, 3 adults and 2 children. Have I done something wrong?
Oct 20th, 2008, 07:01 PM
#5
Oz - I assumed you didn't because you just listed it as 64€ each (the kids of course are less than the adults but I guess you gave an average). You would still have to add seat reservations for a pass which would add about 50€ on your ICPlus Rome/Naples/Rome (25€ each way - 5€ x 5 travelers). Another 25€ ICPlus Rome/Florence and 75€ for AV or ES Florence/Venice. That's 150€ you would have to pay in addition to the price of the passes.
Oct 20th, 2008, 07:45 PM
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Hi Kybourbon
Sorry for not explaining properly. The Trenitalia prices I've given are the total prices, for all 5 of us, including the seat reservation fee e.g. 64.20 Euros for all 5 of us including seat reservation to get from Rome to Naples.
Sorry for not explaining properly. The Trenitalia prices I've given are the total prices, for all 5 of us, including the seat reservation fee e.g. 64.20 Euros for all 5 of us including seat reservation to get from Rome to Naples.
Oct 20th, 2008, 10:09 PM
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Hi, Ozzie
You may qualify for the family rate, by the way. The Amica is not always easy to score, they only release so many seats and they seem to be snapped up quickly. In 3 months, I only got the Amica once! Hmm, someone may know about the regulations covering Family fares.
Yvonne
You may qualify for the family rate, by the way. The Amica is not always easy to score, they only release so many seats and they seem to be snapped up quickly. In 3 months, I only got the Amica once! Hmm, someone may know about the regulations covering Family fares.
Yvonne
Oct 21st, 2008, 03:13 AM
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>Rome to Florence on 15th December for 78.40 Euros 2nd class on an IC train. We could travel first class for 105.60 Euros but I'm not sure this is necessary.
If you want to get more for your money, spend it on an ES train instead of IC on this stretch. ES uses the high speed line here while IC and ICPlus trains stay on the slower conventional line - so ES saves you at least an hour one way.
On the way onwards to Venice the line is conventional anyway so whatever train type you use will not get you much there faster than the other.
If you want to get more for your money, spend it on an ES train instead of IC on this stretch. ES uses the high speed line here while IC and ICPlus trains stay on the slower conventional line - so ES saves you at least an hour one way.
On the way onwards to Venice the line is conventional anyway so whatever train type you use will not get you much there faster than the other.
Oct 21st, 2008, 03:51 AM
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Hi OZZ
When you price your tickets at www.trenitalia.com/en/index.html you want the Familia plan for two adults and the 10 yr old.
Rome to Florence, this is 76E, instead of 87.
However, also price the Amica for 2 Adults and 1 child. Sometimes it is even cheaper.
The 12 yr old is an adult.
Enjoy Italy.
When you price your tickets at www.trenitalia.com/en/index.html you want the Familia plan for two adults and the 10 yr old.
Rome to Florence, this is 76E, instead of 87.
However, also price the Amica for 2 Adults and 1 child. Sometimes it is even cheaper.
The 12 yr old is an adult.
Enjoy Italy.
Oct 21st, 2008, 05:35 AM
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Thanks for the info YvonneT, Altamiro and Ira.
Like everyone, I am having no joy trying to book the tickets through Trenitalia. It just keeps declining my payment, no matter which credit card I use......
Ira, thank you so much for telling me that the 12 year old is an adult. I assumed that the "4 - 12" area Trenitalia has on their booking page meant that a 12 year old was a child until they turned 13. How did you find this out? I cannot find the definition of a "child" anywhere on the Trenitalia website.
Like everyone, I am having no joy trying to book the tickets through Trenitalia. It just keeps declining my payment, no matter which credit card I use......
Ira, thank you so much for telling me that the 12 year old is an adult. I assumed that the "4 - 12" area Trenitalia has on their booking page meant that a 12 year old was a child until they turned 13. How did you find this out? I cannot find the definition of a "child" anywhere on the Trenitalia website.
Oct 21st, 2008, 05:47 AM
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And the reason the railpasses are more expensive is the companies selling them need to make a profit>
um that would be Trenitalia, the company that makes these passes available and sets the price - the same company that sells the Amica ticket?
That said the Italian railpass is not usually cost effective for the typical person like you who is doing the Venice-Florence-Rome type trip. Esp because with a pass you still must pay 15 euros supplements to ride the Eurostar Italia trains each time.
um that would be Trenitalia, the company that makes these passes available and sets the price - the same company that sells the Amica ticket?
That said the Italian railpass is not usually cost effective for the typical person like you who is doing the Venice-Florence-Rome type trip. Esp because with a pass you still must pay 15 euros supplements to ride the Eurostar Italia trains each time.
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:06 AM
#12
PQ - While Trenitalia is making money off of a pass, they are not the one selling it to people in the US. AFAIK - anyone in the US can not purchase a pass directly from Trenitalia. The booking agents don't exist just for fun. They are in business to make money which is why they charge big fees to mail point-to-point tickets which you don't even need. If you purchases a ptp from Trenitalia, you would just print the reservation code from your own computer printer. Most Italians have the code on their phones and just show it to the conducter as they walk by and he enters it.
Oz - I looked at Trenitalia and it does say under 12. The family offers are 20% off on adult tickets and 50% on childrens (basically the same thing as Amica). Perhaps that means you can get this discount even if the Amica isn't available. You will not arrive in Italy in time to purchase your Rome/Naples tickets on an Amica fare. Must be at least 24 hours in advance and you said you were going the day after arrival. It might be possible to buy them separately as you are probably outside the 24 hour window for the return portion from Naples.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of money to save time. Is it worth your vaction time to spend an extra hour on the train between Rome/Florence? ES trains are 1 1/2 hours and the IC trains are 2 1/2 hours.
Oz - I looked at Trenitalia and it does say under 12. The family offers are 20% off on adult tickets and 50% on childrens (basically the same thing as Amica). Perhaps that means you can get this discount even if the Amica isn't available. You will not arrive in Italy in time to purchase your Rome/Naples tickets on an Amica fare. Must be at least 24 hours in advance and you said you were going the day after arrival. It might be possible to buy them separately as you are probably outside the 24 hour window for the return portion from Naples.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of money to save time. Is it worth your vaction time to spend an extra hour on the train between Rome/Florence? ES trains are 1 1/2 hours and the IC trains are 2 1/2 hours.
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:11 AM
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Trenitalia sets the prices for the Italian railpasses sold in the U.S. and they sell it thru their former Eurail franchise, Wandrian rail i believe having bought the rights to sell them thru the old CIT Eurailpass franchise - just one of a few authorized to sell eurailpasses in the U.S. (along with the German Railways franchise, now bought by RailEurope, and the French-Swiss franchise of Raileurope).
Trenitalia sets the prices i believe and they could well set a much lower price and should in my opinion or at least eliminate the hefty 15 euro supplement for Eurostar trains.
Trenitalia sets the prices i believe and they could well set a much lower price and should in my opinion or at least eliminate the hefty 15 euro supplement for Eurostar trains.
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:52 AM
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But am I missing something? Why are the rail passes at least 25% more expensive than booking the train journeys myself?>
Well you are also comparing apples to oranges -
Amica fares are not always available - must be booked in advance and then have restrictions on exact train and may not be refundable
Railpasses can be used on any train anytime, subject to the mandatory seat reservation requirements on ES and ICp trains only. If you want to change you train the pass will be valid on any train.
Now one reason i blame Trenitalia for making passes not good for most itineraries is that they impose a 15 euro or about $22 surcharge to use a pass on most trains an average tourist will take - three of these adds $66 onto the price of a pass already overpriced IMO
but this 15 euro thing is purely a decision of Trenitalia in Italy i would think. IMO they should drop that fee to passholders to the simple 5 euro seat reservation fee.
Well you are also comparing apples to oranges -
Amica fares are not always available - must be booked in advance and then have restrictions on exact train and may not be refundable
Railpasses can be used on any train anytime, subject to the mandatory seat reservation requirements on ES and ICp trains only. If you want to change you train the pass will be valid on any train.
Now one reason i blame Trenitalia for making passes not good for most itineraries is that they impose a 15 euro or about $22 surcharge to use a pass on most trains an average tourist will take - three of these adds $66 onto the price of a pass already overpriced IMO
but this 15 euro thing is purely a decision of Trenitalia in Italy i would think. IMO they should drop that fee to passholders to the simple 5 euro seat reservation fee.
Oct 21st, 2008, 07:11 AM
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A rail pass entitles you to make unlimited journeys throughout Italy - from Bolzano in the Alps to Trapani at the western end of Sicily (closer to north Africa than to the Italian mainland).
A train journey from Bolzano to Trapani would take 24 hours or more.
If you catch trains between Roma and Venezia, you're using only a small part of the Italian rail system, which is why a pass would not make sense.
A train journey from Bolzano to Trapani would take 24 hours or more.
If you catch trains between Roma and Venezia, you're using only a small part of the Italian rail system, which is why a pass would not make sense.
Oct 21st, 2008, 05:14 PM
#16
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Thanks so much for all the feedback. I now understand that I don't need a rail pass for Italy.
I also understand that I can buy the tickets once I get to Rome and that, although I'll be too late to get the Amica fare (which is sad because there are 5 of us), I can still get the Familia fare, which is better than no discount at all.
In case there are any Australians who are battling to buy tickets online through Trenitalia, this may be of interest to you - and sve you wasting your time.
I too tried to buy tickets online through Trenitalia, with no success, even though I tried everything that has been suggested on this and many other threads.
I heard back from my Australian credit card companies today (Mastercard, American Express and Diners Club). They have all told me that they have had so many cases of fraudulent activity resulting from their customers placing orders online with Trenitalia that they have blocked all online transactions through this site.
I also understand that I can buy the tickets once I get to Rome and that, although I'll be too late to get the Amica fare (which is sad because there are 5 of us), I can still get the Familia fare, which is better than no discount at all.
In case there are any Australians who are battling to buy tickets online through Trenitalia, this may be of interest to you - and sve you wasting your time.
I too tried to buy tickets online through Trenitalia, with no success, even though I tried everything that has been suggested on this and many other threads.
I heard back from my Australian credit card companies today (Mastercard, American Express and Diners Club). They have all told me that they have had so many cases of fraudulent activity resulting from their customers placing orders online with Trenitalia that they have blocked all online transactions through this site.
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:29 PM
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Hi Ozziez, That is exactly the experience I had with my credit card when trying to buy tickets from Trenitalia. In fact our bank rang us to check on the transactions we were trying to make and advised us not to use our cards which was kind of them. I then booked with rail europe (Trip from Interlaken to Venice) and also bought when I got to Venice and Florence.
Oct 21st, 2008, 07:20 PM
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I would suggest that you buy your trenitalia tickets as soon as you arrive in Rome. You will be buying what they call point to point or city to city. The prices are very reasonable. My husband and I took trains all along the east caost of Sicily and then to Palermo and it was far cheaper than we could have imagined. Second class will also work very well. When the train stopped at various points, we just made sure that one of us was looking out for our luggage. I had tried to book trenitalia from the USA on the computer, and had no luck. I talked with a well traveled friend, and they said buy when you get there. There will be someone there who speaks English to assist you. Good luck.Have a great trip
Oct 22nd, 2008, 06:31 AM
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And the self-service ticketing machines in Italian stations - racks of them - are idiot-proof (I could easily use them) and take only a few minutes to spit out your ticket - otherwise you can wait in long lines in major stations at ticket windows.
the self-service machines are the easiest i've seen to use anywhere in Europe - ironically trenitalia.com is the worst and hardest site it seems to use. Why can't they just transfer the in-station machine technology to the Internet?
the self-service machines are the easiest i've seen to use anywhere in Europe - ironically trenitalia.com is the worst and hardest site it seems to use. Why can't they just transfer the in-station machine technology to the Internet?
Oct 22nd, 2008, 06:46 AM
#20
Not all of the self-serve machines are as easy as the ones in the front part of Termini. Some are old style push button (not touch screen)and require you to look at nearby lists of stations in order to select the correct station.
