Did you PAY for premium economy or were you using some sort of FF points for these seats?

I paid

WOW!!!

I gather there was no way you had pre-assigned seats prior to check-in.

I had them but apparently they moved someone from business to our seats. They kept telling us that we were the 157th people to check in. We did not have internet in my friends apartment so i could not do online checkin as i did for the outgoing flight. The flight attendants were shocked also and thanked us for how nice we were considering. I want to have some compensation for all 3 seats as we had no idea.

I do have travel insurance and paid with my American Express. Maybe they can help. At this point, I want my money back. But, as I said, I would fly with them again as I know that there are far worse stories than mine on any given airline out there. Hopefully, they will just compensate me and we will feel better!

were you on a code-share Delta booking? - we have had bad experiences when we ticket with Delta on an Air France flight. What I really hate is that often a Delta flight on Delta costs hundreds $$$ more than a Delta flight code-shared on Air France. But when we do that, seat assignements seem to disappear and we end up in middle seat purgatory.

No I bought them from the Air France webiste as I always do. Not sure what happened.

Could it have something to do with online check in?

I do not see how online check-in would interfere with seats that we already assigned to you. If they are assigned then they are assigned (at least that is my understanding) and I am sure you checked in well within the required timeframe.

When a flight attendant thanks you for "how nice we were considering..." well, something is rotten somewhere I suspect.

There is always a get out clause regarding assigned airlines seats. Always. Somewhere in the T&C you will read that they reserve the right to move you to another seat/class if they need to.
Good luck with getting anything back from them - somehow I think they will quote chapter and verse to you and say you accepted the T&C at the time of booking.

I think you may be able to reclaim the difference in price between premimum economy and economy, but only for two of you , the third person was given the seat class that was paid for and the airline is likely not going to refund the difference on a seat/ticket that YOU changed by choice. I hope you kept your boarding passes etc.

I am totally sympathetic to your issue and sorry that happened to you and your party.
I had a little different experience on my last Air France flight. I was flying non-stop LAX-CDG and booked the flight probably 9 to 10 months in advance and immediately selected a nice aisle bulkhead seat. (I really suffer when flying with someones face in my lap, so I wanted to try bulkhead) I checked in at home on line the night before flying and had my boarding pass. I apparently was oblivious to what was going on and just sat in the waiting area as name after name was called to the gate desk, but never me. Honestly, the announcements seemed to be in french more than english. I typically wait til the end of the boarding process to board as I did this time. I walked right to the bulkhead where I expected my seat to be and found it was occupied. I looked at the row# and it was not the row I had selected. I followed the row numbers further back to discover my seat was in the middle of a 3 seat row. I basically freaked as I knew I could not tolerate that for 11+ hours. The plane was 100% full. I immediately found an FA and told her of the problem. It turns out what happened was that the earlier departure to CDG had a mechanical and used the plane supposedly for us leaving a substitute different model plane for us, hence all the activity at the gate desk. Since my seat# was a valid seat on the new configuration plane, they did nothing to try to change my seat assignment. I was not informed when I checked in that this was going on or I would have gone to the gate desk immediately. The FA understood my dilemma and said to wait a moment and she would see what she could do. It turned out a very nice gentleman who had a middle bulkhead seat in the very back section had family re-assigned in my assigned row and agreed to switch seats. Although not a aisle, it all turned out OK in the end. My overall observation of the whole thing was pretty much chaos

We did have confirmed seats from when I bought the tickets. If we get money back for all 3 fabulous but if for only 2 at least it will pay for most of my souvenirs. I bought some Sicilian tile for oour bathroom redo. The first lady that we spoke to when we checked in the luggage handwrote our original seats on the boarding pass. She also told us the plane was overfull and that we may be moved up not down. We thought nothing of it as we have been moved up before. At the gate they took those from us and gave us new boarding passes.

I would contact the airline. They have a record of your original purchase and of your seat reassignment. And they do owe you a refund or even more.

I am at work and am about to start calling. Wish me luck!! Will let you all know. Thanks for your advice.

ttt - to see how it turns out.

good luck, lrock.

so pleased you had a good trip though - any chance of a trip report?

Apparently after speaking with customer relations I must fill out a form for a claim online and there is no one I can speak to.

You will be compensated officially. Since refunds for downgrades was one of the things I did for 35 years in the airline industry, I can confirm that it happens very often. It is nearly always a case of "high contribution passengers" making demands at the last minute and getting their way, bumping down all of the little non-VIPs.

If everyone who made bookings on flights actually turned up for them, there would be no need for overbooking and this situation would not happen. Same with prebooking specific seats and finding out that they have been changed. It does happen very often and is not nice but it is not an issue of the airline's making, it is an issue of the people that book flights and no show.

I am sorry but I disagree with Odin. Airlines know about overbooking and no-shows. Overbooking is one thing; taking a BOOKED SEAT away from someone who DID show up for it is entirely something else.

I can confirm that it happens very often. It is nearly always a case of "high contribution passengers" making demands at the last minute and getting their way, bumping down all of the little non-VIPs.>>

how do get to be a "high contribution passenger" kerouac?

sounds like it's a good thing to be!

I believe that means someone who is paying more for their ticket (high contribution).

I've never had that happen to me, thank goodness, but I can't afford those seats. However, I did have that happen to me once on a domestic United flight. It was a small plane and United has this insidious practice of marking certain seats premium economy even on very small planes, most of them. So if you want to book a ticket, the regular price seats can be sold out as there aren't that many, so you are forced to pay for the premium. That happened to me once on a flight from Chicago to Aspen (the website claims the premium seats have more leg room, they didn't look different to me). However, when boarding, the boarding ticket they gave me turned out to be for a regular seat. I didn't know it, of course, it wasn't obvious which rows were premium and which not, but I checked later and found out (it wasn't my original seat). It was about a $35 seat different or something. It took me about 2 months to get United to refund that fee I was forced to pay for something I didn't get.

Kerouac,

Since I cannot speak to someone, I was told to fill out the form online and it may take 7 to 21 days to receive some correspondence back from Air France. Do I expect a form letter? I have read that they have to give a certain percent back from the downgrade. I have never had this happen so I do not know waht to expect. Do you receive any compensation or just the straight up cash refund. Thank you so much for your help.

Glad I found this post. I have booked Premier Voyager seats on AirFrance for an Atlanta to Paris flight in May. I'll be frequently checking my seat status right up until I'm sitting in my booked seat!

Under Article 10 of Regulation 261/2004 the two involuntarily downgraded passengers are due 75% compensation http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers/air/doc/neb/questions_answers.pdf_reg_2004_261.pdf

Dukey - you appear to be laboring under the erroneous assumption that when you get a seat assignment it is guaranteed that you will occupy that seat. This is a common error. Seat assignments are never guaranteed. Period.
Signed,
Learned the hard way.

The rules for compensation are automatic, so you can expect an automatic replay. There are monetary amounts for each degree of fare code disrespected.

automatic reply

Thank you so much for your reply Kerouac. I have received no e-mail from Air France and was told today to fill out the claim form online.If it is indeed 75% for the 2 seats, that is a fair amount. The flight attendants told me it may take a weeks or so for their report to get in the system but to try for the 3rd seat as you never know we may get that also as they documented that they let us all move together. I don't have the 1st set of boarding passes as they took them from the gate so if they ask for any more documentation shouldn't they have it all in their system?

Low Country Islander, I would definitely check in online 24 hours early as they told us that since we checked in 157th that is why we got moved. I still don't understand it but it is what it is. I just want to get some money back and hopefully go back to Paris soon. We could have had far worse happen to us than have our seats moved.

Every airline will always just try to give you credit on the airline for a future trip. You only get actual money if you tell them "this experience was so horrible that I am never going to take your airline again." Of course, then you will wait much longer.

I was told to fill out the claim form so do I just write that I want the percentage of money back? I can find no one to actually talk to at Air France. I plan to quote the Eu rule so they know I know that I am entitled to.

And will they contact me or should I be ther one contacting them? Sorry to ask so many questions. I have never been in this boat before. That is probably a bad comparison as we are taking a cruise next year for a friend's daughter's wedding. On Carnival hope that goes OK-HAHA

So sorry....it is irritating and sometimes can happen if there is an aircraft change. Certainly your status with the airline in general and the amount you paid fr the ticket all come into play. I do agree that you want to check in as early as possible for trans-atlantic(we were once upgraded because we were first to check in). I woukd call them back...and no they may not have all the info in their system. Expect to do the work to get any money back.

I was bumped once with a confirmed, assigned seat because they needed to save on fuel for a flight in bad weather....me and another girl and both of us weighed about 110 lbs!!! Lotsa of heavier people made it on that flight. If you have any frequent flier status I woukd also work for additnal points as well as the refund.

Trying to talk to a live human being at Air France is like...well, I can't even think of a good comparison. It's pretty much impossible. When our luggage was delayed for several days we worked with a representative of our travel-insurance company, who apparently had a number to call in such cases. Otherwise it's on-line forms and wait for a response. Be sure to print and date copies of any and all correspondence.

I understand that one may not get the SEAT assignment , that its not guaranteed, BUT since you pay more for a different CLASS and get demoted to a cheaper class I think one should get compensation.

I have American Express travel insurance and I paid with my American Eaxpress card. i will call them but in the meantime I will submit my claim form online. I am going to try to get monetary compensation for all 3 seats if I can. If I can't talk to anyone how do I ask for anything else besides just the money, which is the most important thing for me to get back as my sister-in- law will not be going again anyway?

If you think AF was bad, you should try dealing with United. They literally do not publish a phone number for customer service, it is a big secret, you can only communicate by email and it took months for them to respond to me. I would have been really steamed if it were more money. I did finally get my refund, however. United only has a customer service number for reservations, nothing else.

I would certainly expect you'd get a refund on the price difference, that is just factual, but if you are asking for some kind of damages for other reasons, such as disappointment or your seat wasn't as comfortable and you really wanted it, I'd forget it. You are never going to get that. But don't leave it up to them, they can give you FF miles, you have to ask for those in such cases. If you are not part of their FF program or the Skymiles or whatever, then that obviously is not an option. But airlines will sometimes give out FF miles to disgrunted customers, I always ask for miles and have gotten them usually in some cases (long flight delays for no reasons, etc.) but they won't give you money just for being disappointed, I suspect, how would they even value that.

United did not try to give me credit for a future trip in my case, I don't think that would be proper, this is an actual monetary difference in the seat you got versus what you paid for, I wouldn't think the airline could not refund the actual price difference legally.

I think by EU rules they should have to give me monetary compensation. I am a member of their flying blue program and I spoke to someone from flying blue just a few minutes ago and they told me to call the 1800 reservations number and speak to someone. We will see.

lrock5,
Just a suggestion for future travel. We were in Paris this summer and, although we had WiFi, we didn't have a printer to get our boarding passes the night before our flight. we were resigned to checking in at the airport. We happened to be out for dinner and walked by a printing shop (like Kinkos). We were able to pay a small amount to print our boarding passes there. Another time I would scope out that kind of place in advance

Just got off of the phone with a person from Delta who handles Air France calls in the US and she gave me the number to fax everything for a refund. She told me I was definitely owed compensation but could not tell me how much. I told her that there was a EU rule about how much and that I would put it in the letter. She told me to ask for what I felt like I deserved as she understood my frustration. I am going to ask for compensation for all 3 tickets and for some sort of FF miles since I belong to flying blue. I definitely want the money though. She told me that very seldom has she had a downgrade that late as getting on the plane. I told her that the flight attendant told her that 2 people were moved from business to our seats. She told me that sounded odd since she did not believe business was usually that oversold. I'm beginning to think it was someone's fiend or something. Who knows. This is a pain. Oh well, Paris was still fantastic.

friend not fiend.

Jane,

We stayed in a fiends apartment and she does not have WIFI. We will probably rent from now on though. Her granddaughter is staying there while she goes to college in Paris and it was teenage girl stuff everywhere and we laughed and decided from now on we may rent. We always pay my friend 100 euro a night but not having WIFI sealed the deal.

Do you have a Twitter account? Besides any other way you contact them "Tweet" your story. You will get a response. They do not like the negative info being out there in the "Twitterverse"

Also they probably have a FB page as well.....Post there, too.

Yes we do have both a facebook and Twitter. I am going to write this up and FAX it also. The lady I spoke to told me I will get a much faster response by FAX.

I'd believe her about the FAX. A couple years ago, miles I'd flown on AF weren't showing up in my skymiles account. Email responses were not forthcoming. Within a day of sending the request (and backup documentation)the miles were deposited in my account.

On my recent Paris trip my hotel could not print out my pass so I located a print shop that had several computers dedicated for use. There were no internet cafes near my hotel. I had the experience in London of getting a middle seat on a BA flight because I waited until I got to the airport.

<< I am going to ask for compensation for all 3 tickets . . . >>

I'm just curious as to what grounds you have for seeking compensation for the person who occupied the premium economy seat. Isn't that the class they were booked in and ultimately flew in? To me, that one doesn't hold much water, but who knows.

I would definitely want the price difference per the EU rules and also ask for some sort of additional "inconvenienced passenger" thing -- could be vouchers for amenities on future flights, monetary voucher to be applied to future flight, extra miles or a pass to the airport lounge.

I've never been downgraded but have been moved out of bulkheads (not exit ones) to accommodate people with infants. A few times I've seen people throwing conniptions when they were being downgraded. There are many reasons for shuffling people around at the last minute: children have to be seated with their parent(s), to make room for the air marshal(s), change of aircraft/configuration, moving another flight crew to another place, VIP(s), broken seats that need repair, etc.

When someone I know tweeted directly to the airline Twitter account about a problem, they tweeted back within the hour asking for her email, so that they could address her issue!

This event happened on 17 March from what I can gather, and it is being discussed as though it is top urgent. Let me tell you, at my airline I had a very high pile of refund requests on my desk at all times and I generally informed anyone who called not to expect anything for 3 months. In the case of a downgrade, it was even longer because I did not have the authority to make the refund -- it had to go to the head office. It was only when I got to about 30 years seniority that I started refunding whatever I felt like refunding, proof or not, and not even consulting the head office. Now that I have left the company, I have heard that things have deteriorated considerably because the refund person only has one year's seniority -- so she will never take the risk of breaking the refund rules.

Bluestar,

We did not use the premium economy seat. The flight attendants after seeing our distress, found us 3 seats in economy and had us write a statement and the Chief Purser was going to write a report stating as such. I may not receive compensation for that seat, but I will definitely not get it if I don't ask. We were told we were downgraded to move 2 business passengers to premium economy.

Kerouac,

I do not expect an answer tomorrow. I appreciate all of the replies as this happened as we were getting on the plane and we were pretty upset. We had no time to react to anything. I never said this was extremely urgent, I was just frustrated and not sure what to do. It has been a big help to have people post and offer advice and sympathy and I appreciate that tremendously. If you don't mind my asking, did you work for AF? If so, I wish you were still there especially now when you were giving what you felt like giving. I may have come out ahead for this trip!! HAHA

No, I did not work for AF. The fact that the head office was elsewhere should have made that clear. I did not even work for an EU carrier, but since I handled the flights out of France, we were subject to EU rules anyway. I often had to fight with the sales department on certain cases (since every tiny bit of money given back decreases their revenue figures), but in the finance department, with my overview of money being squandered in so many other ways, it was not at all difficult for me to put things in perspective.

I didn't pick up on the head office being elsewhere bit. I am going to send it in tomorrow and wait and see. But, Paris was wonderful and I will wait patiently for my refund and go back next year.

Social Worker,

Mu husband tweeted Air France and they tweeted back asking for our reference number. Then they tweeted back asking to not lose us as a customer. He tweeeted that it was too complicated to tweet and that if they were interested they needed to get our contact info and call us. We will see.

Lisa

I'm a little confused, but since I have pre-booked bulkhead E+ seats for a flight in June, I wanted to ask a followup about the EU rules -- is the 75% compensation rule 75% of the ticket price, or 75% of the difference between the regular E and the E+ ticket price? If it's 75% of the full ticket price, meaning you end up paying 25% of the E+ price for an E seat, I'd say that a fair amount of compensation for inconvenience (although I'd still rather have been sitting in E+ bulkhead)

I found AirFrance an absolute PITA to deal with on my trip this past October. I had booked the delta code-share, even though I actually tried to book AirFrance directly, and though I thought I had seat assignments, when I showed up 3 hours before my flight, I had no seats. I had to go to the gate, and wait for the gate agent to appear (30 minutes before the flight) and try to get me 3 seats in a row. I was so PO'ed. My impression was that Air France does not actually make seat assignments until you check in, even if you THINK you made them when you purchased.

On our return from Paris we tried to check in online, and were unable so had our concierge call. It took 45 minutes to get a person, and then the person hung up on our concierge. We finally got through, but it must have taken and hour and a quarter to actually check-in and confirm our seats. A HUGE pain.

I'm not sure I would ever fly AirFrance again after that fiasco. At least, I would actively try to avoid it.

I am glad that at least they did answer you, Lisa. I hope it works out!

They tweeted back and said they were going to investigate and confirmed our e-mail address to get in touch with us. We will see. Fingers crossed.

Years ago the word was "Take a chance. Fly Air France."I am sure there are horror stories about all carriera but AF does seem to stand out. Econ. Plus seats are pretty good for the long haul if you can't finagle Bus. That said the inconvenience of reseating is most definitly a pain. Hopefully you will hang in there and not let the designed delays in response tempt you to throw in the towel. Let us know down the road how this turns out. If you charged the extra cost to your credit card you might challenge the charge and let the cc comp. deal with it.

I used American Express travel insurance and paid with my
American Express Card.I will definitely go through the process no matter how lengthy. I want whatever compensation I am entitled to.

Amer_can's "take a chance, fly Air France" slogan is certainly out of date. Of the airlines we fly to Europe, AF consistently has the best food and the service is as good as anyone else's, though that could be damning with faint praise.

Overbooking happens. The later you check in, the more likely you are to be bumped. You should be compensated for your loss.

I vigorously agree w/Ack. No better food in the air than AF, and generally gracious service on the ground and in the air! I just try to avoid connections, but I do that w/every airline. Sometimes you cannot avoid them....

Altho I cannot remember the exact sequence of events, unlike china _cat, I *was* able to get seat assignments for our outbound Delta code share on AF from BOS to CDG last October, but I made the reservations 6 mos or more before the flts and now do not remember exactly how I did it....

I agree. We do like AF and have had relatively good luck with them. We made a very tight connection to Rome on the 1st part of our trip and all of our luggage landed safely with us. We have been upgraded 2 times when they have overbooked. This time I actually paid for better seats but got downgraded. Stuff happens and as long as we get some compensation we will fly AF again as they have a straight connection to Paris from Houston and better food and free wine, which my husband loves and takes advantage of as he is afraid to fly.

I love Air France, and will never forget how amazing their service was when I flew last September with a broken foot and on crutches. There was someone to help me at every step of the journey, like clockwork - just incredibly gracious, helpful, efficient people.

Only the crew at the gate at CDG were not helpful. The flight attendants on our plane were flat out fabulous even offering to write a report that we did not use the premium economy seat. They even thanked us for being so calm and not making a fuss on the plane.

I stand corrected and that's a good thing!!! Sounds like it might be a good idea to "take another chance"!!! Haven't flown them in years due to several very poor experiences previously. Thanks for the update..

Just got an email from AF..re: specials fares from Canada, if anyone is interested.. 4/1 to 6/18 and 9/11 to 12/14..Well under $1000. Know that this may not be the place but much interest in AF prompted me to share.

Just got something from AF customer care saying that they are giving my husband and sister in law(who will never fly them again) a $200 voucher on a future flight in addition to the refund we need to send to claims dept. We e-mailed back what happened. Don't know if they received it or not. Very frustrating not to speak to a live person. They did apologize for being told at the gate as we got on the plane we had been downgraded though. This response was from the tweet.

Looks like the situation is geting straightened out..Good!!I, personally, would not be satisfied with a future flight voucher as who knows what tomorrow brings and trips on AF may not be on your priority list.. Keep up the quest!!

Will do. I plan to FAX the refund request tomorrow. It would be nice if the voucher were actually for me and not my sister in law though.

Ah, now there's the rub -- compensations are linked to passenger names unless you can prove that you paid for all of the tickets.

I paid for all 3 on my American Express card.

Get in touch with AMX..They may have some suggestions or maybe able to help..Worth a try...

They will try to dispute the charge but I am going to try to ge the refund and see how much that is first. I am not sure if AF will give back 75% of the ticket as the EU rules suggests or try to wiggle out with only the last portion of the flight. I did put the rule in my FAX along with the fact that they should have let us know that we were getting downgraded BEFORE we were walking on the plane. We will see.

Refund Faxed off. We will see. I will let everyone know if I hear anything as unfortunately these things happen and if I can help anyone else in the future I will. I will also try to work on a trip report this weekend.

It was a wonderful trip from Rome and no Pope to meeting my husband's extended family on Sicily to landing in Paris during the blizzard of March 12. Quite an adventure.

Again, thank you for all of your help and advice and understanding of the pleasures of flying!!

Lisa

My elderly mother was downgraded by Air France from business to economy while flying on her own to South America. They were very rude about it too, she was just told that they were overbooked. She had booked and paid for business ages in advance.

When she tried to leave the plane after getting to her destination, they stopped her and told her to wait for the business passengers...

She got a refund an apology in the end, but it took some paperwork.

Your poor mother. What we went through was frustrating enough without paying for Business and being moved to economy. I'm glad she got a refund AND apology. I

Today I got a $200 voucher to go along with my husband and my sister-in-law's last week. The person from AF apologized for the actions of the gate staff at CDG. Apparently this was a goodwill gesture on his part. So now I am just waiting on the refund for the fax I sent last week to the refund department. That may take a while.

Oh and by the way Socialworker, we got the vouchers through posting on Twitter. Thanks for the heads up.

I am so happy to have been able to help, Irock!

I only knew to do this b/c of the younger people in my family. All of the businesses want to maintain good relationships and connections with the Twitter generation, and if you complain via Twitter, they assume that you are young and they do not want to lose that demographic!

Just wondering -- does Twitter have a private message function or are you exposing your life to everybody in the world by tweeting? I don't use Twitter enough to know such things.

If you are going to use twitter to complain then the whole point of it is that the complaint is exposed to everyone who follows Air France or whoever the complaint is aimed at. Companies hate those sorts of social media complaints for that very reason.

I had a problem with a phone provider and my daughter complained on twitter about it. The problem was resolved within an hour and that was in a Sunday!

kerouac...yes, twitter does have a private message function. The way it has worked with me in the past (with Delta) is that I put out a tweet with my issue and Delta tweeted back and asked me to send more information (such as ticket number/confirmation number) to them via private message.

But yes, the real point of why they respond is the public nature of the Twitter forum. Your Twitter identity does not have to include your actual name, if you choose not to use it.

You can only send truly private messages between fellow followers--that is two Twitter account holders who mutually follow each other. But if I tweet to Air France, for example, everyone and anyone who looks at the Air France twitter feed will see my words, but they will only know the identity that I chose to share as my Twitter name....Hard to explain, but becomes clear upon using it for a while.

The poster above tweeted to Delta and then it appears that Delta started to follow them and that allowed them to continue their communication privately. But the public aspect at the start is what lights the fire under them.

Air France tweeted us privately and asked for our reference number and we gave that to them privately.

I think it is pathetic that a company has different service standards for people who complain on Twitter to those following normal routes. What on earth does that say about how they respect their customers.

Irock5, are you actually doing things and appreciating your trip to France or spending all of your time getting compensation for the downgrade? I approve of people who follow up problems (I always do and I even fought with a motel in Georgia for 7 months after my last trip to the U.S.), but I do tend to put such things aside until I have completed my trip.

socialworker, that's interesting that you were able to get seat assignments on your airfrance/delta flight. We booked about 2 months in advance, and as far as I know we did HAVE seat assignments. They showed up on my reservation, and I did it over the phone, the agent told me I had them. When we arrived to check in, we were told we didn't have them. I don't know if we never did, or if they got cancelled when we didn't check in 24 hours in advance.

My issue is that my DH and I book 3 seats for 2 people for the extra space. We need them to be in a row, or we might as well throw our money away. We often cannot checkin on-line because we have no passport for the 3rd seat, and most airline systems have trouble with this. Heck, most desk agents at the airport have trouble with this.

Jetblue is the first airline I have encountered who handled the extra seat business flawlessly.

Oooh, china_cat, I wonder if I lied.....

We flew into London and back from Paris and when I look up the receipt, I see the seat assignments to London but the AF segment says "Not Assigned"....BUT, I remember that I *did* have assignments b/c I told DH not to freak out about it saying not assigned. They just did not show up for whatever reason. Since it was our return flt, I remember stressing about it less, but it is coming back to me that when we checked in at AF in Paris, that we did have them. I am just not helpful b/c since I was doing this a year ago, I cannot remember how I did it.

In your case where you are paying for an extra seat, it is crucial that you know upfront. Can they not just assign 2 seats to one of the travelers and do it that way to circumvent the passport issue. I would be very irritated if I were in your shoes!

FWIW we were traveling on miles and they may be a confounding variable.

Kerouac, I think the problem occurred on their flight home, not on the flight to Paris. A trip report might be good though.

Oh, right, I missed that for some strange reason (otherwise known as "not paying attention").

Yes, I will post a trip report eventually. I just got a response from AF and apparently they think they do not owe us the 75% compensation just $420 per seat. I thought this was a EU rule for downgrades.

When you call AF in the US you get Delta. I spoke to a supervisor who knows nothing about EU compensation rules and she had me fill out a EU compensation form on Delta. I did that and now we get to wait to see what will happen. They make it really hard to get compensation. I think that most people would probably just think they got some money and move on as they really give you no information. If not for this website, I would not know about them (EU rules). That is disturbing.

They make it really hard to get compensation. I think that most people would probably just think they got some money and move on as they really give you no information.>>

well, congrats to you for your persistence. i think they rely on people not knowing their rights and giving up after they get knocked back a time or two.

I had a somewhat similar exprience with Delta from Paris a few years ago. My lesson learned, was to put my complaint in writing, be clear about my expectations and be direct. I also looked up the names of the Delta customer service Execs on Google finance and copied them in on the letter.... two weeks later I got a very polite apoologetic call, miles credited to my account that covered another trip to Europe for each of us and refunds. I was speachless....

I had a somewhat similar exprience with Delta from Paris a few years ago. My lesson learned, was to put my complaint in writing, be clear about my expectations and be direct. I also looked up the names of the Delta customer service Execs on Google finance and copied them in on the letter.... two weeks later I got a very polite apoologetic call, miles credited to my account that covered another trip to Europe for each of us and refunds. I was speachless....

In the letter I would include a link to this discussion.

Working for an airline for 35 years, I was told never to spontaneously offer any sort of refund if it was not requested. I completely ignored this directive and refunded all sorts of things on my own initiative. I even refunded quite a few non refundable tickets. I'm sure that the airline has become much more profitable since I left.

Thanks, I rock, for posting this. I learned a lot about downgrades, twitter , etc and now a major airline is probably much more profitable without Kerouac .

lrock - if I am reading correctly, two of the three passengers were involuntarily downgraded and the third person chose to give up the upgrade. Does that mean the Article 10.2(c)of Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 AF compensation of 75% of the fare for that segment is owing to just the two?
At 75%, $420 would equate to a OW fare of $560, or a R/T fare of $1120. Is that close to what you paid?

I also note that the same article requires that the compensation be paid within seven days according as outlined in Article 7(3) - i.e., "in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services" (emphasis mine - meaning they can't claim that travel vouchers are your reimbursement unless you agree to that and they cannot force you to agree) It's already well past that date, wonder if that has any additional penalty?

Maybe kerouac or someone with similar professional insight can comment...

No I paid $1800 each for those seats. So they owe me upwards of $1300 each for at least 2 seats. After conferring with the flight attendants who offered to write a statement for us, I asked for all 3. I may not get that but they owe for 2 seats. I know that this was supposed to be done within 7 days and they were also supposed to let us know before walking on the plane and they were supposed to let us know our rights. The only thing the gate crew said was to ask Houston for a refund.

After posting on twitter we received a $200 voucher as a goodwill gesture for how badly we were treated, but legally they owe us a refund. I have read that AF has been hit a few times for trying to skirt the EU rules so I don't know why they are making this so hard. I just want to get my money back, put it behind us and plan another trip next year.

Have you filled out anything like this? https://www.airfrance.fr/FR/fr/local/transverse/footer/reclamation.htm

If you can't do it in French, maybe there's an English equivalent or you can get someone to translate for you.

Actually, this might be more useful:

http://onyoursi.de/wiki/airline/air-france/

Thank you StCirq. Yes, I actually filled out the American version of that form on the Air France US site. That is where they refunded $840 and said if I had any more claims to contact customer service. Customer service is Delta. Delta had me fill out a form for EU compensation and told me I would get an automatic reply and would get a case number. Nothing yet. I understand companies want to pay the least possible, but this is a problem of AF's making and I just want my money back and to move on. But i am not going to just give up and take the $840 when they owe us a lot more. Since we started going to Paris in 2006 we have used them every year sometimes twice a year and we were treated poorly this time.

But look at the second website and contact the Florida (???) office, and the CEO.

Do you want me to write a kick-ass letter to the CEO in French? My French translators can do that. It's imperative that you get to the higher-ups!

I can call the Florida number for customer relations. Every number i have called so far has been a Delata person as they take all AF call in the US. Delta acts like they know nothing about EU regulations. Af has made it impossible to talk to anyone at all.

We are planning a February trip to Paris. If I let you write ah letter for me will I still be allowed to fly AF? HaHa!

St Cirq is right - you have to get to the senior leaders. Reality is they will never see the letter. Every major company has a team of people that deal with nail to the senior execs. Look up names for Delta execs on yahoo finance. You may find some info on AF if you google...... and for good measure I always CC in a lawyer...... I just make one up.....

<<I just make one up>>

AIR FRANCE HEADQUARTERS
45, rue de Paris
95747 Roissy-CDG Cedex, France
ph: 33 (0)141567800; toll-free ph: 1-800-237-2747
website: http://www.airfrance.com
JEAN-CYRIL SPINETTA, Chairman and CEO
PIERRE-HENRI GOURGEON, President and Chief Operating Officer
PHILIPPE CALAVIA, Chief Financial Officer
AUGUSTE GAYTE, Executive Vice President - Coordination
PATRICK ALEXANDRE, Executive Vice President - International Commercial Affairs
ALAIN BASSIL, Executive Vice President - Air France Industries
CHRISTIAN BOIREAU, Executive Vice President - Commercial France
MARC BOUDIER, Executive Vice President - Air France Cargo
JEAN-FRANCOIS COLIN, Executive Vice President - Social Policy
PASCAL DE IZAGUIRRE, Executive Vice President - Ground Operations
BRUNO MATHEU, Executive Vice President - Marketing and Network Management
JACQUES PICHOT, Secretary General
GILBERT ROVETTO, Executive Vice President - Flight Operations

StCirq,

Should I mail letters or e-mail if I can find e-mail addresses and are you still willing to help with a kick ass letter in French? I got a really crappy response from Delta for Air France that said that Premium Economy was not a different class than economy, just a more expensive seat and that the $420 refund is all we are entitled to. We only get Eu compensation if we are downgraded from Business to economy. However, there are 4 distinct classes on their website and if you google classes on AF Premium Economy is a different class than economy. They are trying to skirt the issue and not pay Eu compensation.

When i spoke to someone at Delta who finally told me to fill out a claim form on their site, she told me she knew nothing about EU compensation. Now they are experts. Crazy

lrock: I would send certified letters by mail (though quite honestly, I'm not sure how certified international mail works - you might check on that). And yes, I can help with the French translations (wouldn't do it myself, because I'm not a certified translator, though my French is good, but I have friends/colleagues who can).

It would be helpful if you could post/re-post the actual language of the AF or other rule that defines the classes and the actual amount that is required to be compensated, so that we could refer to that (preferably in French) in the letter(s).

I agree that AF defines Premium Economy as a separate class from Economy. It would also be helpful if you could find a URL that defines the classes (I'll look for it in French as well).

StCirq,

I will get all of this together this weekend. I need to get all of my documentation together and work is crazy. Is there any way to send this to you privately? Also, when I type in Air Farnce Premium Economy and then Air Farnce Economy, they both come up as different classes on google.

The letter from Delta that defines what compensation we are to receive is full full of inaccurate information. They have my sister-in-law's name wrong (different last name altogether0 and they refer to conversations that they say I had with the refunds department. I haave never spoken to anyone in refunds. Air France makes it almost impossible to contact anyone by phone. Every e-mail they send you has a non returnable address so you cannot respond. The letter from Delta also has the different classes on Air France listed incorrectly. They refer to Business Class as La Premiere although Premiere is first class.

They are just looking for a way to get around EU rules. Eu rules say that a downgrade is a class that is less than the class for which you paid. Air France advertises Premium Economy as a better class than economy. It is a separate cabain, like business, the seats are bigger, like business, and the food is different and better.

Why on earth would anyone pay 7 to 8 hundred dollars more for a Premium Economy if they can just bump you and their are no consequences for that bump. The Eu tried to enact rules to stop bad behavior but AF is defining is trying to wiggle out as I have since read they have tried to do in the past also.

All I can say is buy Premium Economy at your peril. When it works it is great. When it doesn't it is a pain as they don't want to pay EU compensation. I also hope if it happens to someone else, they let you know before you are walking on the plane.

irock - an expensive lesson to learn.

i suspect that all of the people in St. Cirq's list would understand a pithy english letter setting out your complaint a note that you're returning to France soon and if you don't get a refund and compensation you'll be instructing a french lawyer.

you might also copy your letter to the EU commissioner for transport.

in case you haven't seen it, I'm copying you a form which you can use to register your complaint with the relevant french authority.

good luck!

Annhig,

Very expensive for 3 Premium Economy seats. I have no problem filling out whatever form I need to and complain. I may not get anything back, but I definitely won't if I don't try. Our plan is to return to Paris next February for a week. Hopefully, we can use our miles to book at least part of the trip. I will probably just use what I can now as my days of loyalty to Air France are over.

lrock5:

My email address is StCirq at aol dot com. Can't promise to get through it all this weekend, as I'm on a deadline for a project, but I'll at least get started or get back to you with suggestions or questions.

Thanks a bunch. I am going to start this weekend too as this has been a busy week hee as well.

Irock - do keep us posted with how you get on.

they rely on people not doing anything so they can get away with this sort of thing.

I most certainly will. Thank you for the support!

StCirq,

I just e-mailed all of the info to you. Hopefully it all makes sense.

It isn't just google, I'm pricing an Air France ticket now for next summer, and I've bought many before -- right on their website, they list 4 classes, economy, premium economy, business and La Premiere (or first). So whatever they advertise, their own website lists it as a separate class of ticket. If you use their website as if you lived in France, they list 5 categories: 2 classes of economy (the cheapest ticket and one more flexible), as well as premium economy, business and Premiere. They still use those words on the French website (economy and premium economy). They used to have something they called Tempo or voyageur for economy, as I recall.

Christina,

I bought ours on the AF website and they have 4 classes on there listed. They just don't want to pay EU compensation for them after they downgrade you. As per their e-mail premium economy is just a better seat not a different class. However, on the plane it is a different and separate cabin, better and different food, the cabin is curtained off, etc. They are saying what they have to not to pay the compensation.

Groan. We're flying Air France (hopefully in) premium economy LAX-CDG-LAX in the fall. This is the first time in 15+ years that I've bought tickets (as opposed to using miles) and specifically wanted premium economy seats, so I hope I don't get burned.

I'll be watching this thread with interest and hope to see that you got your full refund.

Got it, as you know, lrock, and will get to it in the next few days as I am able.

Thanks so much StCirq. We really appreciate your help. Let me know whatever else you need.

Will do!

lrock5 - we just had the same thing happen to us on a trip from CDG to IAH. We were offered a full refund for the difference between Econ. Premier and Economy (with no clarity as to how they determine what that cost difference is)+ 150 euro compensation each. We don't think that's sufficient, and are working now to figure out how to get in touch with the right people in customer service (same issue of AF sending us to Delta, then Delta sending us to AF). Very interested to hear how this works out for you!

Were you offered that at CDG? I hope they let you know before you were walking on the plane like us. It was a little upsetting to say the least. We got $420 per seat back which is nowhere near what they should have paid per EU compensation. AF and Delta have sent me around in circles but I will let you know. What is it with this Houston flight? Goodness.

Keep it up Irock5...Your efforts will be of much good to others in the same situation as yourself. Keep up the thread!! Thanks for you perserverance.

Thanks. I was hoping everyone didn't think I was a little crazy for keeping on with this. We are planning a February trip to Paris so hopefully we can get compensation. If not, it's still Paris.

Yes, that is what we were offered at CDG (so maybe your crusade has already had an impact?). Thanks for continuing to follow-up with your story, it's very helpful for us in trying to navigate more easily!

It happened when we were boarding so basically all we got was talk to Houston about a refund. We made them call a supervisor over and he said the same thing. We got the $420 from refunds after I faxed a refund request. But that was not EU compensation. No where near.

The $420 is what they said was due from premium economy to regular economy. They say premium is not a different class just a better seat. Makes no sense to me as it sure is marketed and sold as a different class.

Makes no sense to me as it sure is marketed and sold as a different class.>>

why would you expect it to make sense?

A couple of months ago, I was on a Delta flight that had a change of aircraft. The gate attendant made an announcement that due to the change, some passengers who had purchased premium economy tickets might have to be moved to regular economy. They indicated that if you were one of those passengers downgraded, they would reimburse you the difference between the cost of the premium ticket and the cost of the seat to which you were reassigned. I was reassigned to a different seat number, but still in premium economy, so I was not entitled to a refund.

annhig,

I know, I know, I am dealing with an airline and there is no logic there even though I keep trying to find it!

Hey! You made Chris Elliott's website!

http://elliott.org/case-dismissed-2/downgraded-on-air-france-but-wheres-their-refund/#more-28266

I just read it. I am thrilled. He tried to help but got back the response that premium economy was just a better seat not a different class and forwarded it to me. No one fron Air France or Delta has contacted me personally to tell me anything about EU compensation or to even tell us why we are not eligible in their eyes.

Anyway, I am wtiting some letters in French and am going to make them very polite and mail them to the top few guys at Air France in Paris certified. It may cost me a few dollars and I may get nothing back but it will make me feel better.
And we are going back to Paris next February!!

I wrote letters in French on behalf of lrock5 and got zero respoonse. Very frustrating!

one thing I've found successful is to write a letter to the CEO and send it certified mail. However, I don't know how to do that for a non-US addressee?

thanks for the update. sorry it didn't have the desired results

StCirq,

I just sent you a e-mail regarding the letters.

Wrote them en francais - heard nothing.Do you want me to call them?

StCirq,

I did not know you wrote the letters. I thought you were going to email them to me and I was going to send them certified. It is expensive to send certified but oh well! Would you mind sending me a copy of the letters in French that you sent? Did you e-mail them? I could not find email addresses. I sent you e-mail but I don't know if you have seen them yet.

Thanks for offering to call but we have decided not to do anything else at this moment.

Thanks,
Lisa

Also to everyone else who has helped or encouraged us in any way we want to say thanks for the advice and encouragement. Last night my husband privately tweeted Air France the link to Christopher Elliott's article and we received a tweet back this morning that said to check our e-mail today for future correspondence. I don't know if that means they are going to try to help us or ban us for life from Air France for being difficult customers -ie making a fuss about EU compensation.

At any rate, I never wanted any of this to happen. We just wanted to have our seats and have a pleasant trip home. We like Air France and have flown them every year for the past 7 years to Paris and Italy. We want to continue to do so. We pay them thousands of dollars a year to fly them and it seems rather silly to have to go throught all of this to get EU compensation. But it is what it is. We love Paris and plan to continue to go every year.


We are not trying to gouge Air France or take anything from this we don't deserve. This did happen to us and we were very upset. It was compounded by the fact that we were literally walking on the plane when they took our boarding passes away and moved 2 of us and gave us no options, not even to all 3 sit together. The flight attendants put us all together -they were lovely! But, it was a rough flight home. We were a little shell shocked by the rude and dismissive way we were treated by the gate crew at Charles de Gaulle.

Again, thank you all for your help and I will let you know if anything else happens that could be of future use to anyone who happens to find themselves in this situation.

We received a very polite reply that we were "reseated" on Air France not downgraded. No more compensation. They just want us to please use them in the future and they are committed to customer care!

They just want us to please use them in the future and they are committed to customer care!>>

self-evidently.

why don't you send them a link to this thread?

If you pay extra for that seat and are reseated to a location that costs significantly less, then you should be reimbursed for the cost difference. Note to self: do not fly AirFrance.

I'm with annhig. I'd send them to a link to this thread. And consider not flying Air France again.

only consider it, skatterfly?

wild horses wouldn't get me on a flight with anyone who had treated me the same way the OP has been treated by Air France.

YOu know, I have always flown AF to Europe, always when going to France, and often another city as they have competitive fares. I've never had any problems with them, and like their service on the flights, but I've never had a problem like this.

I am really shocked at their response and it really makes me think much worse of them. I just think it is ridiculous to claim that isn't a different class when you pay more and right on their own website they list it as a different class! Never heard of paying more for a seat that wasn't a different class unless it was a very minor difference (I think some cheapo airlines charge you a little more for exit row, for example).

Now that I think of it, United does have some premium economy seats and on their planes, no, I guess I wouldn't call that a different class, actually. I had to get a refund from them once as I bought one but didn't get it, maybe I said that before.

But regardless of whether it is a class or not, I can't imagine on what justifiable basis they refuse to refund money you paid for something you didn't get, that's the bottom line. This is really one of the worst airline customer service stories I've ever heard.

I guess my long ago comment..Take a chancce, fly Air france.. is proving itself!! Keep up the fight and don't let them off the hook if you can afford the energy!!!

I am going to write a few letters and send them certified to Paris. I know it is expensive but it will make me feel better. I am also going to file a EU261/2004 complaint. And I am going back to Paris early next year so that alone makes me feel infinitely better.

Sorry to ask this, in case it was clear above, Irock; I know that you have received something, but did they reimburse you the full difference in price between what you paid for and what you got?

They gave us back $420 for each of the 2 seats downgraded. EU compensation should have been more but they are now saying we were reseated not downgraded. My husband told me last night that if anyone had seen the rude and dismissive way we were treated by the gate crew we would get compensation and more. But not everyone at AF was terrible. We had wonderful flight attendants who were tremendously kind.

So was that the total price difference for the seats? I am just trying to understand how/why they are rationalizing that they are "done" with you.

They said at first that it was just an adjustment for that portion of the fare. That we were not downgraded we just didn't get our original seat. This was the reply that Mr. Elliott received from Delta when he intervened on our behalf. We never received any reply. It said that Premium Economy was not a different class just a better seat.

After Mr. Elliott's story on us my husband privately tweeted AF and linked the story. They then told us to expect some correspondence. What we got yesterday said that we were reseated not downgraded. But we were, in Air Frances words to us at the time, upgraded from economy to Premium economy on a flight a few years ago. We just felt we were entitled to EU compensation after reading the rule on the EU website.

Yes, if that is the EU policy, then of course you are! But it sounds like they are trying to nickel and dime you based on their having refunded the monetary difference of the price of the seats. I wonder if they are thinking that only EU citizens are entitled to the EU compensation.....a weaselly move but maybe that is what they are thinking....

I think they just are trying to not pay anything else and hope I will give up. I didn't know about the EU rules until this happened and I would bet most Americans don't either. AF knows they are beholden to them but from what I have researched they and other EU air carriers try at all costs to avoid them. It just seems sillly to me as we have been using AF yearly and spending thousans of dollars.

As a former airline refund person (as I mentioned before), I must say that I find their compensation 'legal' but it is true that they are playing on the definition of what a different class is, and that was probably programmed right from the start.

The best way to know if you were in a different class from economy is to check the IZ tax on the ticket. This is the 'solidarity tax' and is applied by a few countries (too few countries in my opinion) to finance health care (mostly regarding AIDS) in the developing countries. For a long haul flight from France, it is 4€ in economy class and 40€ in any other class.

I'd dump the whole frustration on the Air France facebook "Wall" and ask for some basic explanations. Is it a class? If not why does website ???? say it is? If it is a class why was I dumped down without compensation as per????

Watch the customer services squirm.

Thank you Kerouac I will see if I can find out that info. So if they only charge the 4 euro, they can say its a different class but still be covered against complaints when this happens.

That is the first bit of useful explanation I have gotten. Certainly AF nor Delta are going to tell me that. At any rate we still plan to go to Paris in February and we want to use the $200 vouchers we received as a goodwill gesture from AF after we complained about the rude and dismissive way we were treated at the gate. I feel like if we do use them to at least get this $200 I will fly economy as someone on here wrote that the exact same thing happened to them on the Paris to Houston flight a few weeks after it happened to us. But after this it may be a long while before we fly AF again.

I"m glad I read this. I had a nightmare experience with Europcar, booked through AutoEurope, and i just posted a complaint on their Facebook page. I"m thinking about posting a thread on it here or elsewhere. These companies should learn that good customer relations is more valuable than a quick buck -- and that maintaining a good reputation, particularly in the social media age, will improve their finances in the long run!

Wow. We used Europcar booked through Autoeurope in Sicily in March. We didn't have any problems. It amazes me how things can turn out do bad for the next person. We have always had good experiences with AF until now. Sorry to hear about your experience. Hope the rest of your trip was great.

Well that is quite off topic, but I just had the opposite experience with Europcar which refunded the entire deductible amount to me after an extemely minor accident -- 722€. I did not even contact them because I had already filed a claim with Gold Mastercard, which refunded the 722€ a bit faster. So now I have 722€ too much but I don't know to whom I should return it.

It is not just the problem itself, but how the company responds to problems that is the hallmark of customer service. Things go wrong, but at least speaking for myself, if a business acknowledges it and does what they can to make the customer feel better, then all is forgiven. In my case, and in yours, that did not happen and now they have engendered alot of bad will and publicity.

I am having the opposite experience with Europcar. I was thinking about posting a trip report just about my attempts to travel from CDG to the Loire Valley because it was among the most stressful days i've ever had. With some distance, I was able to see the humor in it, but now what I am going through with the car companies has brought it all back in spades.

To sum it up: Europcar thinks it's okay to give me a car that breaks down on the highway and turns a three hour trip into a ten hour day and does nothing to compensate (or even offer an apology) but a month after I return home charges me an outrageous sum for returning the replacement car with an empty fuel tank when they told me to return it empty.... (this is only a small picture of how tough and confusing it was to deal with Europcar.)

Oh, and of course, AutoEurope was very quick to send me a customer survey about my experience, but is doing nothing to support me or stand behind me in this situation....

I agree. I have always liked AF but they could have handled this better.