I don't want to seem critical -b ut you alradyhave an extremely busy itinerary - and I'm not sure where you are going to have time to see what. Almost every day is a travel day - which means sightseeing is limited to 4 or 5 hours.

With 3 kids I would limit yourself to London and 2 other stops - with perhaps a day trip from them.

Otherwise you are bouncing around like ping pong balls.

For instance - Stonhenge/Bath is NOT one place. Bath will take a full day to see much of anything and you would need a separate day to travel from London to Stonehenge to see it an then on to Bath.

Are you planning on seeing matches in Manchester and Liverpool? If so - when will that happen? And will you see nothing else in those cities?

We always do road rips by road - since train may not follow the path you want - and it could mean a lot of backtracking. I know there are coaches from London to Oxford - but not sure if you will find anything but local buses between some of the places you're talking about - and that could take forever.

I think you need to get a train schedule so you can see how long it would take to get from one place to another on your list - but 6 places in 6 days is about as rushed as you can get.

hi idah,

first of all, I love the idea of getting out of london and seeing something of England - in theory. However, you only have 10 nights, and i feel that for a first trip, you would probably want to spend longer in London than you have given it, and even if you don't you don't have the time needed to do justice [or even get to] all the places you have mentioned.

you do need to decide whether you want to hire a car or use public transport - of course a car will give you more flexibility, but a train might be less stressful.

a further point is that you should aim to put all your nights in London together - either all at the end of the trip or all at the beginning.

putting your itinerary into a sensible order [and omitting places that you haven't got time to go to, like Liverpool, Manchester and North wales - which would make a 10 day trip of their own] you could do this:

Day 1 - arrive LHR [assuming you are arriving in the early morning, about breakfast time]. hire car and drive to windsor. spend day there/Legoland. [not a good idea to drive very far on this day when you have just arrived]

Day 2 - Drive to Bath, passing Stonehenge and visiting Salisbury en route. Stay 3 nights. [personally, I'd go a bit further and stay in Bristol where there is loads to do for kids of this age, and you could see Bath on a day trip]

Day 3,4, - stay Bath/Bristol

Day 5 - drive to Oxford. stay 2 nights.

Day 6, - Oxford/environs

Day 7 - return car, get train to London. [sorry, Cambridge is too much of an outlier for this trip] stay. stay 4 nights.

Day 11 - fly home.

this puts all your london nights at the end and therefore puts you in the right place for flying home. but you could do exactly the same trip in reverse, ending up with the night in Windsor, which depending on the timing of your flight home, you could jettison for another night in Bristol or Bath, and return the car direct to LHR.

have a great trip!

Annhig makes an excelent itinerary suggestion. You could always do a Wembley tour or Arsenal/Chelsea/any other London club tour for the football fans. Not the same as Old Trafford/City of Manchester stadium or Anfield/Goodison depending which teams they support but still interesting for them.
Bear in mind also that daylight is greatly reduced in November so spending all day on the road would leave you seeing many things in the dark!

And always consider the value of some "wiggle room." You never know when someone's going to be a little sick or need to rest up some blisters from too much walking the day before or want to take refuge inside from an all-day rain that would make exploring miserable.

Kandace

I'd second the above comments, though you say Manchester and Liverpool are must see so consider staying in Chester as a base for exploring the north west and north Wales (why north Wales?)

day 1 Arrive Heathrow stay close

day 2 drive to Oxford
day 3 Oxford
day 4 Oxford

(days 2-4 also visit Bath and or Stonehenge)

day 5 drive to Chester (drop off car possibly)
day 6 Chester
day 7 Chester
(days 5-7 also visit Liverpool, or Manchester or north Wales but probably not all)

day 8 drive or train London
day 9 London
day 10 London
day 11 London and home

but it's a busy schedule and something will have to give - but it's an idea.

sorry - i missed the fact the Manchester and Liverpool are must sees.

do you have tickets for a match in either city ? otherwise all you'll be able to do are tours of the stadiums as there will be no chance of getting tickets except at silly prices. i agree with hetismj that unless the kids are mad keen Man U/man city/liverpool supporters, you could do the same thing at the Spurs, Chelsea or Arsenal grounds. you might even get tickets for a match at Fulham, if you're lucky.

if you have to go "up north" then i can't see how you will get to Bath, Oxford, or Cambridge. to do all that AND london too is just too much in the time you've got.

Just a few odd thoughts
There will be tonnes of fireworks set off on 2nd, 3rd and 5th of November. The majority of this stuff will go up on the 5th. If you are in the country you will want to be at a firework party or at least aware they are going on.

Are you prepared for jet lag?

I take it you googled the distances and times for the travel, add 30% on the time to get more sensible journey times.

Of the cities mentioned Oxford is very un-friendly towards cars and Cambridge is close behind. If have not experienced such a concept it may be frustrating.

Going to busy

Just to pile on -- agree w/most everything above. Please clarify - is Day 1 your arrival day and day 11 your departure day? If so, you have even less than eleven days. Day one is mostly eaten up w/ logistics/jetlag, and day 11 is pack/get to the airport and wait. So in 'real life' you have about 9 days free but have plans that would easily fill a month - three weeks minimum.

Give us more detail about what you expect from Manchester/Liverpool. Just see the grounds or actually attend a match (VERY difficult)?

If you really must do the north-then stick to the north and London. Fly into Manchester, visit the two cities plus Chester and North Wales - total about 4-ish days. Drop the car and take the train to London for the rest of your time.

That is about what you could manage.

If you want to take a day trip to Oxford - great. You don't have time for both Oxford AND Cambridge. And you definitely don't have time for Stonehenge, Bath, Oxford, Manchester, Liverpool, North Wales, Cambridge and London.

Oh to clarify - by fly into MAN, I meant open jaw into MAN and home from LHR (or vice versa)

London is catnip for hobbits - double-decker buses, interactive museums, the Tower, trains, Hamley's (hoo boy - you'll be in for it there), Imperial War Museum, Harry Potterness and more. Your original itinerary stinks - too much moving around with "small children." Best to limit your locales - one near Manchester/L'pool, London and elsewhere.

If you do hope to see matches, you will have to arrange to be in Liverpool or Manchester on a Saturday when they are actually playing at home. As half of the fixtures are away matches, it is just as likely Man U or Liverpool FC will be playing in London or elsewhere. Of course if their football interests extend to Man City or Everton FC your chances will be doubled.

If you just want to visit football grounds or cities where teams are located, I believe you would be better off looking in London, where Chelsea, Arsenal, and many other top clubs reside. Don't forget the national stadium at Wembley, where the cup final and international matches are played: http://www.wembleystadium.com/Wembley-Tours.aspx

The easiest way to do this trip is as mentioned. Fly into Manchester if you can and out of a London airport. That makes much more sense and will stop you backtracking up and down the country. However, if you've already booked your air tickets, you're stuck with in and out of Heathrow unless you fly back there from Manchester on a shuttle flight.

As far as visiting Manchester is concerned, not only do we have the major club ground in the UK at Old Trafford, www.manutd.com but there is a museum at the ground too for all United fans and a stadium tour. The National Football Museum is in Manchester City Centre in the Urbis building and is well worth a visit. Entrance is free, though they do look for a donation for its upkeep.

http://www.nationalfootballmuseumcom/

If you are lucky enough to be in town when there 's a match on, you may still be able to get tickets via the club on the above link at normal match prices (or on 0044 161 868 8000) and you can collect them at the ticket office on the day of the match. Get there early though if you do this, as lots of others will be queueing too. Matches are NOT always on a Saturday afternoon and you might find a Sunday or weekday night match is available. The UK fixtures for Manchester United in November are as follows:

03 Nov Barclays Premier League Arsenal H 12:45
10 Nov Barclays Premier League Aston Villa A 17:30
17 Nov Barclays Premier League Norwich City A 17:30
24 Nov Barclays Premier League Queens Park Rangers H 15:00
28 Nov Barclays Premier League West Ham H 20:00

The home and away games are marked H or A. There is only one home Saturday afternoon game at 3pm shown.

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all the replies. Really appreciate all of them..

To clarify some of the questions:
1. We'll arrive Heathrow at 5-6am
2. On 12th day, we'll take eurostar to Paris (planning for this will be next in my list..mmm)
3. 15th day, we'll fly back home from CDG
4. Manchester is a really must see. The kids are excited for this trip bcause of Manchester. No plan to see any matches. Stadium tour and city tour will just do.
Will probably skip Liverpool and will take your suggestions and do stadium tour in London.
5. Ops.. another must see town is Colchester. Want to visit my old uni.

Going thru' the suggested itinerary and here's my revised iti:
Day 1 - Arrive Heathrow. London city - free n easy
Day 2 - Train to Manchester (4 hrs trip)
Day 3 - Manchester - stadium tour, etc
Day 4 - Train to London. Just resting in the hotel.
Day 5 - Day trip to Colchester (by train)
Day 6 - Day trip to Oxford (by coach)
Day 7 to 11 - London (stadium tour and other attractions)
Day 12 - Bye London

I do tend to agree. Taking train maybe less stressful as this will be the family's first time in UK.

Just trying my luck, is it still sensible to visit Stonehenge with the itinerary?

Since we'll take train/coach to the cities, do you think we can manage by walking or take local buses in Manchester and Oxford to visit the attractions?

Thanks again for all the advice.

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all the replies. Really appreciate all of them..

To clarify some of the questions:
1. We'll arrive Heathrow at 5-6am
2. On 12th day, we'll take eurostar to Paris (planning for this will be next in my list..mmm)
3. 15th day, we'll fly back home from CDG
4. Manchester is a really must see. The kids are excited for this trip bcause of Manchester. No plan to see any matches. Stadium tour and city tour will just do.
Will probably skip Liverpool and will take your suggestions and do stadium tour in London.
5. Ops.. another must see town is Colchester. Want to visit my old uni.

Going thru' the suggested itinerary and here's my revised iti:
Day 1 - Arrive Heathrow. London city - free n easy
Day 2 - Train to Manchester (4 hrs trip)
Day 3 - Manchester - stadium tour, etc
Day 4 - Train to London. Just resting in the hotel.
Day 5 - Day trip to Colchester (by train)
Day 6 - Day trip to Oxford (by coach)
Day 7 to 11 - London (stadium tour and other attractions)
Day 12 - Bye London

I do tend to agree. Taking train maybe less stressful as this will be the family's first time in UK.

Just trying my luck, is it still sensible to visit Stonehenge with the itinerary?

Since we'll take train/coach to the cities, do you think we can manage by walking or take local buses in Manchester and Oxford to visit the attractions?

Thanks again for all the advice.

Ooops.. sorry to post twice.

On second thought, here's the itinerary if we drive. We'll have an extra day for London alone:

Day 1 - Arrive Heathrow. London city - free n easy
Day 2 – Drive to Manchester. City tour
Day 3 - Manchester - stadium tour, etc. Drive to Colchester
Day 4 – Colchester town. Drive to Oxford.
Day 5 – Oxford city tour, etc. Drop off car at Oxford
Day 6 – 11 London (stadium tour and other attractions)
Day 12 - Bye London

Is the driving route sensible or I should stick with the 1st revised itinerary?

IMHO this latest itinerary seems to make more sense.

"On second thought, here's the itinerary if we drive. We'll have an extra day for London alone:

Day 1 - Arrive Heathrow. London city - free n easy
Day 2 – Drive to Manchester. City tour
Day 3 - Manchester - stadium tour, etc. Drive to Colchester
Day 4 – Colchester town. Drive to Oxford.
Day 5 – Oxford city tour, etc. Drop off car at Oxford
Day 6 – 11 London (stadium tour and other attractions)
Day 12 - Bye London"

I don't think this plan makes any sense. Manchester to Colchester is 250 miles (and you'd be going via the M25 around the northern side of London). Then Colchester to Oxford is 125+ miles and you'd be retracing your route back around the M25. No sense at all.

If you must do this - then do it Manchester > Oxford > Colchester. Driving from London to Manchester is not great either.

So if it was my trip (but it isn't) - assuming your flights are booked - Land at LHR, fly up to MAN. Spend that day and the next in Manchester (2 nights). Pick up a carin the early AM, drive to Oxford, spend the night, drive to Colchester, spend the night. Either drive to London and drop the car or drop the car and take the train to London.

mmm - london - manchester - oxford - colchester - london? in 6 days? not an obvious itinerary, certainly.

anyhow, i think I'd break it up differently -

Day 1 - arrive LHR 6am. clear immigration/customs by 8am. have breakfast. Get bus to Oxford. [here's the timetable - http://www.oxfordbus.co.uk/main.php?page_id=24 - they run every 30 mins all through the day and most of the night]

spend the day and night. at least. I'd stay an extra night to recover from possible jetlag, and to get a real chance to explore Oxford.

Day 2 - get train or drive to Manchester. spend 2 nights. [trains run every hour or so, some are direct, takes about 3 hours].

Day 4 - pick up car and drive to colchester. it should take about 4 1/2 hours. i would definitely suggest stopping off somewhere historical en route - what about Newark on trent? or cambridge? have a look at viamichelin.com for a route and to put in various options.

day 5 - stay in colchester.

Day 6 - train/drive to london.

Is there anyway you can convince your kids that there are great football teams in London - especially if you can actually get tickets to a Fulham game?

I say this because my dad is from Manchester and we have spent time there and I have to say it is one of my least favourite cities in the UK. I cannot imagine going all the way there and back to see a football stadium when you can do tours of Arsenal or Tottenham or Chelsea stadiums and potentially go to an actual game at Fulham IN London - which would give you much more time to see the other areas you are visiting.

Just my 2 cents.

Annhig's itinerary makes a lot of sense - but one minor point. That 4.5 hour drive time is for a perfect day . . . no weather, no traffic, no road works, no getting lost.

And Jamikins is right, unless they absolutely bleed MU red, there are several football/stadium options in London.

I don't think this plan makes any sense. Manchester to Colchester is 250 miles (and you'd be going via the M25 around the northern side of London).

No you won't! You don't have to go anywhere near the M25 to drive from Manchester to Colchester. From the M6 or M1 motorway, connect with the A14 which goes to Cambridge and on to Felixstowe. From Cambridge you can continue on the A14 to Ipswich, then join the A12 to Cochester. This is dual carrigeway (divided highway) all the way to Colchester. Alternatively, get on the M11 at Cambridge, get off at the Stansted Airport exit, and continue on the A120 the rest of the way to Colchester. I believe most of the A120 is single carrigeway, but you will be driving through a picturesque area. Either of those routes would be far better than continuing to the M25, then backtracking up the A12 to Colchester.

Since you are going past Cambridge anyway, consider that instead of Oxford. I'll admit some bias, as I live near Cambridge, but I think it has a much more attractive setting than Oxford. Most of the colleges are close together in the city centre on the banks of the River Cam. There's also the Fitzwilliam Museum, which has an Egyptian mummy, something most children are fascinated with

If you must do this - then do it Manchester > Oxford > Colchester.

Janis, thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day! That is the worst idea yet!

Heimdall: But your route takes even a bit longer. That is the way I would have originally thought too. But I tried it on two different mapping sites - and south and across the M25 came out 20-30 minutes faster.

Plug both routes into the AA route finder - just Manchester > Colchester and then Manchester > Cambridge > Colchester.

Janis, I don't have to look t the AA route finder (I am a member of the Automobile Association, by the way), as I live in the area and drive those roads. The A14 is the major artery between the east coast ports of Felixstowe & Harwich and the cities of the Midlands and North. Colchester is very near Harwich. Admittedly the A14 gets a lot of HGV traffic, but so do all the other motorways and "A" roads in England.

No way would I drive all the way to the M25 orbital and then go back up the A12 to Colchester. All it would take is one tailback on the M25, and that 20-30 minute advantage would disappear. The M25 is sometimes referred to as the world's largest car park, and I avoid it whenever possible.

I'm with Heimdall here. We just came back from LHR and though our journey thank goodness required us to spend relatively little time on the M25, it's awfulness came flooding back to me from when we used to live just beyond it, and i can't believe it's improved in the last 15 years.

Manchester - Colchester via Newark takes you past some interesting places - the OP might even want to spend a night there. it also makes sense in the way in which it takes the OP up one side of England, and brings him/her back the other side.

Actually, I think it's not the best use of time just to go to Manchester to see Old Trafford, but it's the OP's trip, not mine.

Annhig's idea of going via Newark is an interesting one, and I agree it is better to take a different route back to the south of England from the one up to Manchester. That would mean going on the A1/A1(M), which isn't motorway standard all the way, but has less traffic than the M1. Depending on which road you take between Manchester and the A1(M), you could go through the beautiful Peak District, and what's left of Sherwood Forest. Burghley House might be an interesting stop. It is a stately home just off the A1, and venue of the famous Burghley Horse Trials. That would add driving time, but be more fun than fighting traffic on the motorways all the way from Manchester to Colchester.

heimdall - it's an area of the country that was unknown to me until DD was at uni nearby, and we had an incentive to explore it. Nearby Southwell is also lovely, and offers the opportunity to visit not only the historic Minster but also a workhouse!

I agree that I'd rather spend time seeing the countryside, even if it takes a bit longer, than slog up and down the motorways, especially on holiday. the route you've mapped out could easily fill several very interesting days, not just one.

Whether you take Heimdall's, Annhig's, or my route (and which is better on the day is unknowable since conditions can change in a second) . . . The point is Manchester/Colchester/Oxford is not a 3 day/2 night trip if you hope to see anything at all.

jj - agree with you there.

The point is Manchester/Colchester/Oxford is not a 3 day/2 night trip if you hope to see anything at all.

Yes, I agree too, and that's why I suggested Cambridge instead of Oxford. If you draw a straight line from Manchester to Colchester, it passes right through Cambridge.

"Manchester is one of my least favourite Cities". It's obvious from that statement that you don't know the place. Maybe you visited where your Dad was born, but have no real experience of a city with fantastic history (the cradle of the Industrial Revolution and Roman ruins), fantastic sport (Team GB did so well in the Olympics because of the facilities in Manchester) wonderful architecture and topclass hotels and restaurants. When were you last here?

"Is there anyway to convince your kids that there are great football teams in London?" Similarly delusional statement.

Rubicund - I can know the history of a place and still not like it. It's my opinion and I am free to share it. And I was there in 2008. Just didnt do it for me, my husband, my mom or several friends that actually went to school there. I found it dirty and quite grim. I thought the city centre lacked charm, Picadilly Sq was filled with drunks at all hours of the day, hen and stag parties were running around everywhere...I stand by my opinion that it is my least favourite place in England that I have visited.

I will take your last comment as your opinion, which you are free to have.

jamikins, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. However, you describe most city centres in terms of drinkers and revellers and Manchester is nowhere near as bad as many other places in the UK. It certainly isn't grim and although it is your least favourite place, I suggest that you compare it to Liverpool, Leicester, London, Birmingham and several others.

I stand by my comments above, especially re football.

:.)

:+-+=

To each there own...no comment on Liverpool, Leicester, Birmingham because I have never been. I live in and love London.

Lets just agree to disagree - I'm glad everyone has their own opinions, makes the board interesting

PS - Go Arsenal

I've lived in Manchester, it could be worse (ie Birmingham where I've also lived or lots of London ditto, the good bits are the art galleries, the china town and the areas around the university. I used to think the IRA had improved the shopping centre but in comparison to say Leeds it is still pretty poor.

Still better than Bolton and Wigan

Thanks so much everyone for all the feedback.
You guys hv been very helpful.

hi idah,

please come back and tell us how you faired and what you thought of Manchester [if you get there!]

...and if you want some great places to see, stay and eat, ask away.

Hi I might have missed it.. but have you driven in the UK before? We just got back(from USA) and most likely would not do it again.. We ended up hitting a curb in Bath and had to get a new tire.. it was so stressful! Do you know how many round abouts there are!! I can't imagine doing this with kids.. I was on the edge of my seat with maps, cell phone and gps on..and and we are normally very good drivers!

Anyway we booked Enterprise in Oxford and returned in Warwick.. be sure the car has a GPS.

Bath has the baths which are very good for kids and adults.. otherwise just lots of shopping.. VERY narrow streets!! good luck!