rosetravels

I could use more itinerary help for a September trip to Italy. Or possibly an intervention. Thanks to all who helped so far! It was originally going to be a June trip for our 30th anniversary but we've switched to late September and we have our plane tickets now. So progress has been made!

We have two weeks in Italy, arriving Monday September 24th from Seattle (after a few days w/ a friend in London so no jetlag in Italy) leaving the afternoon of Sunday, October 7th.

I’d planned 3 days in Tuscany, staying in Pienza, taking hikes and eating and drinking. Then roughly 5-6 days in Umbria and 5-6 days in the Marche – Urbino and Ascoli areas. I’d tracked down some great agriturismos and was about to book them…

But we live in western Washington and it’s been a seriously dark and wet winter here. My husband – who has never joined in on travel research before – was looking at places in Italy via google earth, saw photos of a place in Positano and he’d like to be in the sun to fend off the coming darkness of next winter. He’s a geologist and was most likely drawn to the cliffs. (He’s also tourist-crowd-phobic so I never thought he’d want to go to the Amalfi coast.) We’re now looking at 2 days in Naples and 3-4 days in Positano and…?

What he saw that he fell for is Rifugio degi Dei, above Positano (www.rifugiodeglidei.it) It’s near the coastal hike and the reviews are glowing. We would mostly hike, eat lunches out, watch the sun set while drinking wine and then have a light dinner in the apartment.

But after that?

We were considering the Gargano Peninsula and Puglia and like the idea of the heat and the food but I really love the landscape of central Italy and can’t quite let go of the idea of being there in early October.

Our current idea is this:

- 2 nights in Naples (I am VERY excited about Naples - the museums & food & general lively chaos). We'll fly to Naples from London.
- 3-4 nights above Positano. No car rental for this portion.
- 3 nights Pienza/Val d’Orcia. We’ll rent a car. I’d like to do at least 1 long walk and explore the area. We’ve been here before and I love this landscape. Considering Sant’Anna in Camprena (www.camprena.it) for the views/food but welcome other suggestions.
-2-3 nights at Force in le Marche, mostly because this agriturismo seemed to have exceptional views and food: www.ramuse.it. We'd explore the towns in the area.
- 1 -2 nights in Ascoli, staying near the square.

I’m tempted to shorten the time in either Positano or le Marche and spend time in Umbria. Our original plan was around a week in Umbria at an apartment w a sunset view.

I could really use your opinion on our itinerary. I want a mix of city and agriturismo w/ food. I will also be interested in the occasional great hike and seeing remarkable art (especially frescoes/paintings). DH loves road trips and would gladly circumnavigate all of Italy in two weeks. But we've done that. I'd rather stay longer in each place and do day trips so that I have time to hike and sketch. I'm trying to find the sweet spot between the two and probably need help editing something out.

What do you recommend?

annhig

well, with umbria /le marche you're thinking about the same area as me, so I'll be interested in teh answers too.

i do have one comment which is about agriturismi in general: though the two you have picked both look delightful, [especially ramuse] which is that you can be very restricted in the evenings, particularly late in the year when there is really no opportunity to go for a walk or drive. if you stay in a town there are bars, shops and usually something to see, whereas in an agriturismo you are more or less stuck where you are.

I therefore think that staying in Pienza might be better than at the agritourismo, though it does look delightful.

I think that I would add a night to Naples - you will be tired after your trip, especially as you have to connect in London, and as you are looking forward to seeing it so much, you may feel short-changed with what is really only a day there.

also, I'm not sure about the end of your trip - the two places you mention in le marche are pretty close to each other, and if you are flying back out of Naples, I'd have thought that you'd want to be a bit closer for the trip home.

nytraveler

Well I'm not sure about a mix of city and country - the only ting you have that's a city i Naples - the others are all small towns - with limited sights. Good for a day - but not major things to see/do. I assume you have been to all of the major cities in Italy already - otherwise I would add a few days in one of those for some of the time in the countryside.

rosetravels

Hi Annhig - I've enjoyed your trip reports in the past! Your one on Iceland was especially helpful last month in confirming that we didn't want to give up time in Italy for Iceland. We had hilarious jokes about the food for a week or so after reading that.

We're in London for 3 days before we fly to Naples. But those will be 3 busy days: 3 intense museum/art gallery/city days, then we'll stay up late for 3 nights with beloved friends drinking red wine and solving the world's problems... and an early morning flight from London. You're right, we'll be a little weary that first day in Naples. We may take the Sunday evening flight from London. I only have the tickets to London at this point, haven't booked the flight from London to Italy as our itinerary is still in flux.

We're flying out of Rome, on a 2:30 flight to Frankfurt, then overnight in Frankfurt or Mainz before we fly home to Seattle. Those tickets are paid for.

Good points about the agriturismos. I definitely want to stay a couple nights at Ramuse. But the ones I emailed near Pienza seemed unlikely to serve dinner while we're there and it would be a shame to stay out in the country for a meal that may not be available. I had originally wanted to stay at the Hotel Piccolo in Pienza (entirely because of a photo of a terrace, a glass of wine and a late afternoon view) and I'll check there again.

I'm open to not visiting Ascoli on this trip and simply staying in Ramuse instead. We can visit Ascoli for an afternoon while there. That's a very good point.

zeppole

Hi,

I think you and your geologist husband might be really thrilled to be in the area of Tuscany known at le crete Senese, and include as part of your touring the Metalliferrous hills that lead to the sea. This steers you toward the Maremma part of Tuscany, which should make a tourist-crowd-phobic traveller very happy

http://www.casinadirosa.it/southern-...ttima-maremma/

If you pick an agriturismo near Murlo, you would have a wide range of art-gawking options.

I caution you that after September 21 you run a risk of wet weather along the Adriatic coast. The Mediterranean is much drier. Umbria is called the "green heart of Italy" for a reason: It gets lot of rain, which is great for the grass, but not for sun-loving vacations.

Puglia, Paestum, the Amalfi and much of the Maremma are great for sun-lovers. From a base near Murlo, you can admire the art and architecture of the Abbey of MonteOliveto Maggiore, the amazing works of Siena. the lovely architecture of Massa Marittima, the ruined abbey of San Galgano, and you can even go up to San Gimignano to see the marvelous Gozzoli frescoes that most tourists don't bother to look at.

So basically I'm suggesting you stick to the mediterranean -- half your time in the sunny, colorful south, and half your time around the red-clay Tuscany near Siena, rich with fresco art.

I think you should extend your time in Naples so you can go to the Capodimonte museum and see its extraordinary painting collection, the fabulous mosaics of the archeology museum and -- please do not miss this -- the cloisters of Santa Chiara. That is the bare minimum for art lovers. If you can spend a bit more time in Naples, there are Caravaggios, the amazing Vasari church of Sant'Anna dei Lombardia, plus the Certosa di San Martino in the hills with its extravaganza of frescoes and views.

So about a week in the south and a week in the north -- and I would personally probably start in the north and move south, but maybe your tickets don't permit that. I would also probably do 5 days in the north and 8 in the south, but I love Naples and lemons and the sea and wouldn't want to miss Paestum.

zeppole

I take it you are flying in and out of Rome?

Then I suggest

Arrive in Rome, immediately take train to Orvieto, explore the tufa town, catch some sleep.

Next day, rent car, take the scenic drive to Murlo or nearby. Settle in for 5 days. Visit MonteOliveto Maggiore, San Galgano, San Gimignano, Massa Marittima and Siena.

Head down to Pompei, maybe spend the night or maybe end the day in Paestum to spend the night there. Next morning, see Paestum, have lunch, drop off the car in Salerno and move on up to Positano.

3 nights in Positano.

Remainder in Naples until you have to tear yourself away to get back to Rome for your flight out.

rosetravels

nytraveler - yes, we love Rome and we were there for a week at Christmas recently and a few days here and there on other trips. We've been to Venice (DH is not a fan) and Florence. I love the museums in Florence.

I've been to Bologna and loved it but couldn't see how to add it on this trip (although I thought about it.) We spent several days in Urbino and had originally planned to go again on this trip, but lopped that off when DH added Positano. We also really like Spoleto.

So I guess by city I meant a small city like Spoleto - I think a mix of country (like an apartment or agriturismo w/ sweeping valley views) and vibrant small cities is what I really have in mind.

But this is food for thought - potentially cutting one of my rural places for Florence or Rome at the end.

rosetravels

Zeppole - first, thank you! This is the shakeup my itinerary needed.

We will be flying in from a 3 day stopover of museums+wine+friends in London, but I don't have the London-Italy tickets yet. Given that, where should we fly into?

Yes, we're flying out of Rome.

Yes, we want lemon trees (actually that's what my husband keeps mentioning to me: lemon trees.)

I'll start looking at the Maremmo now.

bobthenavigator

I like your trip---I see little reason for change now.
You have obviously done your home work--I would love to tag along.

annhig

rose - i think that the massa-marittimma may be exactly what you are looking for. if you can bear another of my trip reports, have a look at the one i did about my time in Italy last year - I stayed in the south of this area [near where the costa concordia went aground, actually] and fell in love with it. So much to do and see and so few other tourists, except the romans at weekends.

I would still fly into Naples, spend a few days there, and then Positano, then head north [a good day's drive, this] to the area highlighted by zeppole. to finish you could spend a day or two at the end near my fave town Orbetello to see that area and do some swimming - the water of the lagoon should be wonderfully warm by then. and you will be about 150 kms away from Rome for your flight home.

not exactly what you were planning, but perhaps closer to what you would have planned had you known about it.

PS - glad you enjoyed the Iceland TR, though I'm sorry I put you off going there. for a geologist it would be absolutely fascinating, i should think. but you wouldn't go there for the food. perhaps consider it for another trip?

rosetravels

Annhig - we considered the free stopover on Icelandair. For non-geologists it is very interesting because it's laid out before you and is so prominent. DH tends to be less interested in seeing (another) geyser than in seeing things like a way cool landslide or a special contact zone where one kind of rock meets another. Or an unusual erratic. We spent time on Newfoundland once - the geology there is interesting - but the food you described reminded us of that trip. We ended up eating a lot of canned beans and cookies.

Just read your trip report. I'm also trying to get a handle on what the landscape in the Maremma looks like. So, I'm researching!

annhig

Rose - the geysers in Iceland were interesting to us amateurs, but i should think that your DH would love seeing the place where the two tectonic plates meet [you can walk between them in some places] and the amazing lava fields. not to mention the odd volcano!

By late september the landscape in the Marremma will be brown. In May, parts of southern Tuscany reminded me of England, with woods and fields and rolling countryside, other parts were already very dry. the coast is quite pretty, dramatic in places, and the lagoon round Orbetello is extraordinary. I've not been there in the autumn but we are thinking about it for this year.

zeppole

hi rose,

I think I am now going to change my screen name to "AnUnusualErratic." (What is that?)

Flying in from London, I would pick Pisa airport and work my way south, so you maximize the chances of getting to follow good weather.

That said, as you know, there are no guarantees about weather. You could leave sunny England to land in a rainstorm in Italy, north or south. So if in the end, one set of flights and logistics works better for you than another, book that.

The Maremma is a beautiful area of Tuscany that is often called by Italians "the wild Maremma" because it has been fairly impossible to tame it for cultivation. It is rich in mineral excavation -- that is why I recommended it to you -- but it is also rich in wild boar and deer and trees.

I suggested that you start out, or base, just west of Siena, because there you get the "red clay" Tuscany. This is a beautiful area of unusual erosions and red clay rocks -- that make for dramatic slashes and divides between the fertile farmlands and vineyards. At the same time, there is beautiful renaissance art within a stone's throw.

But from this area just west of Siena it is also possible to slip over toward the hills to where there is a view of the sea out to the Tuscan islands, from the dramatic hilltown of Massa Marittima. There is also the wine country of Scansano, the hidden abbey of San Galgano and lots of stopped-in-time Tuscan towns. Almost none of this has ever been developed for tourism in the way other parts of Tuscany have been. Here you find the rough and rich cuisine of Tuscany, the bolder wines and the heartier stews. Chestnuts, pumpkins and mushrooms and other autumn fare -- similar to what you can get in Le Marche, including truffles around San Giovanni d'Asso. If you aren't looking for a Tuscany manicured for tourism, the Maremma is nice.

The Maremma extends fairly far north and south. if you want, you could stay coastal the whole time. Then I might suggest basing around Magliano in Toscana for hikes and sea air, and wild beaches. But if you want the flavor of autumnal Tuscany, the iron-hills and the red-clay, and easy access to Renaissance art and beautiful frescoes, staying a bit inland and near a good road to Siena makes sense.

There are also hot springs throughout that area if that interests you and your husband.

I'm suggesting something at the border of the val di Merse and the Crete Senesi, and from there you can make forays into the coastal Maremma

http://www.venere.com/tuscany/val-di-merse/

http://www.terresiena.it/index.php?o...id=343&lang=en

http://www.terresiena.it/index.php?o...id=347&lang=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete_Senesi

http://www.maremmaguide.com/

rosetravels

Unusual Erratic - that's hilarious! An erratic is a large boulder that differs from the native rock, usually moved long distances by a glacier. Here's some photos of erratics from the Jackass Conglomerate (that would be a great name for something!) on DH's geology blog:
http://washingtonlandscape.blogspot....glomerate.html

Back to Tuscany - the Crete Senese looks gorgeous! That is exactly the landscape w/ cypress trees, rolling hills and sweeping vistas that I was looking for. And then the mention of pumpkin, mushrooms, truffles and Renaissance art also interests me.

As of today, we're considering at least 1 day in Florence to visit the Uffizi. I was there 4 years ago with our daughter (we had an apt. there for 5 days) but DH hasn't been in 30 years and I would really like to see the paintings again. I didn't love Florence but I'm willing to give it another try in order to see the art. I don't know if we would do a day trip or stay our first night and then move south. In which case we'd fly into Florence.

Which towns would you recommend in the Crete Senesi?

rosetravels

This was a weekend of travel planning! We decided to cut out central Italy on this trip and stay south. We expect to be back in Italy next year and THAT will be the time to visit Tuscany, Umbria and the Marche. All your questions and the discussion really helped us focus so thank you!

Here's what we decided on:
- 3 nights Naples. Visit museums, eat pizza! We're staying here: http://www.bbspaccanapoli.com/en/
- 1 night unknown: pick up rental car, visit the Cilento National Park. ON somewhere there.
- 5 nights in Positano - hike, wander around, look at the water. Stay here: http://www.rifugiodeglidei.it/index_eng.html
Drop rental car back in Naples, train to Rome
- 4 nights Rome. We realized there are museums there that we haven't been to in 32 years (Vatican and the Capitoline), and churches we have yet to see. Plus, Rome is one of our favorite places in the world - we're thrilled to return. I'm looking for an apartment in Trastevere or near Navona. I'd welcome any suggestions there. I did like the reviews, price and location of this one: http://www.vrbo.com/220827. It's only avail the last 3 nights but I don't mind staying in a hotel and switching.

Does the distribution of days seem right? I do wonder if we should be 4 nights in Naples and 4 nights in Positano.

Has anyone been to Cilento National Park? DH has been looking at google earth images and is quite interested in the coastline but it's not an area that people seem to visit. There are a few agriturismos so we'd probably stay at one of them.

zeppole

Just personally for me, I would do 4 nights in Naples, and I would pick for my transition spot Paestum -- meaning, I would take the train to Salerno and rent the car there.

Before you give up the car, I wonder if your husband would be interested in the geology of the "fields of fire" around Naples. You might visit them and then drop off your car at the Naples airport, take the airport shuttle to the Napoli train station, and head to Rome.

Or you could see them and then drive to Ciampino airport in Rome, drop off the car, and take public transport or a taxi into Rome proper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegraean_Fields

Thanks for the links to the unusual erratics of the Jackass Conglomerate -- and I better not start riffing on that on Fodor's!

I'm pretty sure ekscrunchy has been to Cilento and may have done a trip report.

I'm pretty sure you can find an apartment you like in Rome where you don't have to switch locations mid-stay.

For your next revisit to Florence and Uffizi, think about spending time in Carrara so you can see the marble quarries, as well as spending time in le Crete Senesi and the Metal hills.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/201...03CARRARA.html

So glad to read about somebody who is going to Italy to do more than shop!

zeppole

One more thing:

For your fresco fix, I highly recommend that you visit in Naples both the church of Sant'Anna dei Lombardi and the Certosa di San Martino (which has exceptional views), plus for an art lover, the cloisters of Santa Chaira in Naples are unique, as is the Cappella San Severo.

And since you are going to Rome in the same trip, please realize that the famous "farnese bull" statute in the arecheological museum of Naples originally came from the Baths of Caracalla in Rome, and that the extraordinary Farenese collection of paintings in Naples' Capodimonte museum (an astonishing palace) once graced the Farnese palace in the Piazza Farneese in Rome (whose central fountain is made of a bathtub from the baths of Caracalla).

In fact, I'll suggest you broaden your Rome apartment search to include the area right around the piazza Farnese, which is a beautiful location and not as touristy or noisy as the other places you are looking. (Your husband is tourist-crowd-phobic, right?)

rosetravels

zeppole - I really appreciate your help with this trip. It was invaluable.

Yes, the only thing I'll probably bring back from this trip is food, photos and a lot of sketches. I'm a professional artist (landscape oil painter), which is why I'm so keenly interested in the sweeping views and pre-screening the details of what the land looks like.

I'll look into these suggestions tonight and give more thought to 4 days in Naples.

I will be interested in Carrara next year. We drove by there on our way to the CT 10 years ago and it looked extremely interesting from the road.

annhig

Rose - nice plan. much better to concentrate on one area and "do" it properly - and more restful too.

you certainly won't be short of things to draw and paint in Naples and Positano.

have a great trip!

zeppole

Hi rose,

it is wonderful to go places and sketch, so you will really have a lot of inspiration. I hope you will have a chance to see the marvelous sketches on the tile work in the cloister of Santa Chiara in Naples. These were nuns who cloistered themselves, and then they created an interior garden with tiled columns and benches that depict all the goings-on of the outside world they never rejoined. It is a delicate curiousity, and it shows what a very high art the tile work of that area is based upon, in Naples and all along the coast.

You mentioned that you had not seen the Capitoliine museum in many years, and it is now renovated, with beautiful views (especially at sunset) from its lower balconies facing the Forum, and also from the terrace just off the museum cafe, facing San Pietro.

I wanted to add that if you end up looking including the area around San Pietro in your apartment search, it is best to lean away from the Campo de'Fiori. The streets of the via Giulia and the via di Monserrato are nice places to look.

In Trastevere, it is best to go south of the piazza Santa Maria, for ease of travel and to miss the most touristy (and noisy) areas. On both sides of the river, you can often find places with terraces and potted lemon trees.

Have a sunny, great trip!