Let's just take the Paris/Lyon/Marseilles/Nice leg. What time are you leaving Paris do that you can have a 1.5 hour (that's the minimum in a restaurant if you don't do a sandwich from a shop) and be done by noon? Why go to Nice at all?

You don't have enough time in any if your cities to enjoy them. Cut it way way down, and I would stay in one country only for a two week trip so you can actually get used to the culture. We have been in France for over two weeks now and I'm only just starting to say oui instead of si for yes.

I'm tired just trying to think about what to say so my first comment would be to recommend that you travel light because it looks as though you'll be dragging your luggage around if you expect to fit as much into the 2 weeks as you hope to.

I also think you're not taking into account the amount of time it takes to get from the airport/rail station to your accommodation. Check in and check out takes time away from your sightseeing time. Day 1-3 for example, you have potentially 48 hours but since you'll be sleeping for 8 of those? That's 40 hours in London.

Most of all? day 7 confuses the heck out of me, you are travelling to Lyon to eat lunch (maybe a late breakfast might be a better description) but you want to leave at noon-ish, what do you expect to see Then a 2 hour train trip to Marseilles for 3-4 hours before you leave for Nice.

The only days I can see that your itinerary works time wise are day 4-6, 9/10, 12 and 14.
The rest of your days will be swallowed up with travelling, checking in and out of your accommodations and any other travel delay that may be thrown your way.

I do wish I had your energy

WAy too much travel I've spent weeksin london and always find new things and places to visit.itself for each of 40 years, also Paris.Even Lyon needs several days. Cut back

Don't get the rail pass.

If you do want to do this much travel, then check out the fares at the French and Italian railways website and buy your tickets in advance.

In France there is a quota for passholders on the fast trains, in Italy you have to pay a reservation fee and in both countries, tickets go on sale well in advance and the earlier you book the cheaper there are.

I also agree with the others that you are trying to cram in way too much for a two week trip. Two months would be more like it...

Hi M,
>2.5D London
3D Paris (Incl 1D Versailles)
1D Lyon-Marseille-Nice
0.5D Milan
2D Venice
2.5D Florence
2.5D Rome<

That is not a vacation, it is a trek.
If your employer ever made you do that, you would quit.

You have a week in Italy - Good.
Add to that a week in either Paris or London.

Enjoy your visit.

Thanks people

Yea I do agree with the general consensus that I'm cramming, but I've always been a "speedy" tourist. Personal preference, I suppose. But looking at it again, I guess I do have to cut it down quite a bit to not kill myself.

This trip is my first to Europe, and as such it's more of a "run through lots of stuff and see what I'd like to see more of next time" kind of thing.

For now, I'm thinking something like:
D1 - Arrive in London in the morning.
D2-3 - London
D4 - Eurostar to Paris in the afternoon.
D5-6 - Paris
D7 - Versailles
D8 - Fly to Venice in the morning
D9-10 - Venice
D11 - Train to Florence in the morning
D11-12 - Florence
D13 - Train to Rome in the morning
D14-15 - Rome
End

Does that sound more plausible? Or is it still too rushed? Venice is somewhat non-negotiable for me so should I cut out Florence too? In that case, would it be better to take the train or the plane to Rome?

Again, thanks for all the help guys

Don't cut out Venice - it's magical!

This is a much much better itinerary. It will give you time in each location to see the sights.

You have enough time for Venice and for Florence - for a taste of those cities. You'll have a small taste of each city and you can go back and focus on one or two during your next trip.

Once you're on the trip you'll be glad you didn't stick to your first itinerary, especially day 7 which made my head spin!! Did you know you can bring a picnic on the trains, including wine? Many people doing long train journeys do that.

If your goal is to see the inside of trains/train stations and to say you passed through each of these cities then your itinerary is perfect. If you want to see anything of England, France or Italy then you need to drop half the schedule.

It seems you are trying to get your money's worth from a four day France/Italy pass. It's likely advanced purchase tickets from each countries train websites (not Raileurope) will be cheaper.

@kybourbon Were you referring to my first post or my revised schedule in my later comment (#6).

Yep thanks for the train tickets tip. As it stands now I only seem to require train tickets in Italy so it should be less of a hassle to buy. Cheers.

Oh and on what to wear. I'm thinking 2 pairs of jeans, pair of boots for rainy days, pair of sneakers, polo tees/shirts with a light sweater. Not really intending to go to those upmarket places. Should be fine?

well anyway for lots of great info on the train portion check out these IMO superb site with lots of great info and not just selling things - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

Have you considered taking the overnight train Paris to Venice - save time and money on a hotel night - www.thello.com has some super great advance fares - even flying takes up half a day - Schlepping out to airport - waiting for flight, which could be late - waiting for bags on other end - getting into Venice, etc.

I would advise as always after decades of European train travel to go first class if on the trip of a lifetime - lost more relaxed journey - not to say 2nd class is a cattle car but first class so so much nicer - lots easier to stow luggage - often lots of empty seats to sprawl out in - 2nd class IME often quite full - and if going first class then yes the France-Italy railpass may save you money so do not dismiss it out of hand without first comparing prices - in 2nd class just do online discounts - but if want flexibility to chose which trains as you go then a pass may well be a good deal - but yes in France there are passholder seat quotas so book those when you buy your pass - if you find the pass cost effective. In Italy there is rarely any problem booking trains with passes IME and yes figure in the 10 euros extra per train.

re your new plan - It is better but you basically have very little time in London or Paris. Arriving London in the AM/immigration/traveling to your hotel/checking in/dealing with jet lag . . . day one is about shot.

An afternoon train to Paris means not doing much of anything that day (you lose an hour w/ the time change). So really 2 days in London & 2 days in Paris.

And Rome is even worse . . . you really can't do anything on your last day so only 1.5 free days in Rome.

Your revised plan is much better, plus I like PalenQ's suggestion about the overnight train.

Although I'd prefer to visit more countryside and small towns (not just a series of big cities) that is hard to do as a solo traveler since that is best done by car with a driver + navigator. I would therefore normally say to take some day tours out of each big city but there is so little time in each, I don't recommend that in your case.

Given your self-description as a fast traveler and that this is sort of a first time 'survey' trip..I think it is a pretty good plan now. Some people are so into slow travel and have the time and budget to return again and again, they have a hard time understanding your type of travel.

Make use of the hop-on, hop-off double decker bus tours in London, Paris and Rome to help you get oriented and see more.

Have a great trip!

" Some people are so into slow travel and have the time and budget to return again and again, they have a hard time understanding your type of travel."

I'm not into slooooow travel. But I AM into practicalities. London is HUGE and just the logistics of just getting from one place to another eats up lots of time.

And Rome is very large and can be more confusing than either Paris or London - so 1.5 days is about long enough to start to get acclimated but not a whole lot more. Maybe 3 major sites max.

Much as it pains me to say so . . . I'd skip London. You don't have enough time to do it justice anyway and those days could be added to Paris and Rome. So you could book a flight directly on to Paris from LHR and start your holiday there.

OR - if London is a 'must', skip Paris. Add a couple of days to London and then fly on to Venice.

The "survey travel" concept is fine if you're actually going to have enough time in each place to get a feel for it. A fly-by, though, can't possibly leave enough of an impression for anyone to be able to evaluate a place or compare it to any other. If you don't even leave yourself enough time to get acclimated and have a sense of where you are and what's around you to be investigated, you can't possibly end up with any reasonable basis for future decisions. Your impressions could be entirely erroneous, on either end of the spectrum - positive or negative.

I'd skip London, and I'd skip Versailles. I still think you are just not realizing the logistics of getting into a city and to the hotel--and back out to the airport and then to the hotel, etc. You'll be able to say "I've been there", but nothing else. And as others say, "just say no" to RailEurope, and to any rail pass. point to point tickets.

Way too much.

Ah, can't find an edit button on this site. Would much appreciate it if comments can be explicitly directed at the exact version of my itinerary as I firm it up along the way.

I've done up a preliminary draft of my London leg, not sure about other cities yet. Please critique!

D1 - Flight lands at 0715. Settle into hotel by 1300. National Museum. Dinner. Trafalgar Square at night. Quick look around Charing Cross.

D2 - Westminster Abbey. Buckingham Palace for the changing of guards, maybe a quick tour. Lunch. A bit of Hyde Park (weather dependent). Royal Albert Hall OR Kensington Palace. Dinner. Big Ben.

D3 - British Museum. Lunch. St Paul's Cathedral OR Tower of London (leaning towards the latter). Dinner. Tower Bridge.

D4 - Check out of hotel. British Library. Lunch. Quick look around King's Cross if there's time. Eurostar from St Pancras.

Feels pretty ok in my head. It's quite busy, but I've done somewhat similar schedules (avg 3 attractions/day, 2-3h each) and I enjoyed those.


The overnight train from Paris to Venice indeed makes more sense. Gare du Nord is so much more accessible than CDG. One question though. If I do go with the point to point tickets, should I purchase them separately from each rail company's website or should I use raileurope? Is there any discount on the former that's not available on the latter? One problem that I'm facing is that Thello doesn't seem to have an English version, which although can be worked around, is a minor annoyance that I'd rather not put up with.

Don't buy from RailEurope. It's a reseller that marks up the ticket prices significantly and then charges you an arm and a leg on top of that to send you the tickets.. ALWAYS buy from the individual rail companies (and the earlier you buy, the cheaper the tickets will be).

We are going to Europe during the exact same time. We're spending a week in Paris and another week on a wine tour around France. I would love to add more destinations but my husband hates to move around so much. Good luck to you. Sounds like a blast!

OK - need some clarifications and some minor re-thinking.

D1: What do you mean by the National Museum? If that is the National Gallery, then yes it is right AT Trafalgar Square. Not quite sure what you are expecting of Charing Cross. It is a street.

D2: >>Westminster Abbey. Buckingham Palace for the changing of guards, maybe a quick tour. Lunch. A bit of Hyde Park (weather dependent). Royal Albert Hall OR Kensington Palace. Dinner. Big Ben.<<

When is your trip? Buckingham Palace is only open until the beginning of October. There is no such thing as a 'quick tour' of the Palace. It is by pre-purchased, timed tickets only and takes about 1.5 to 2 hours. many will advise dropping the Changing of the Guard. I probably wouldn't do it myself during such a short visit. It does eat up a LOT of time just standing around. Big Ben is just a walk-by and you can see it on Day 1 walking down from Trafalgar Sq. Royal Albert Hall - Do you mean a tour of the concert Hall? I'd personally consider the V&A over either the RAH or Kensington Palace. But the Palace is also interesting.

D3: >>D3 - British Museum. Lunch. St Paul's Cathedral OR Tower of London (leaning towards the latter). Dinner. Tower Bridge.<<

If you go to the British Museum you will still be there well in to, and probably past, lunch time. By then the crowds at the Tower will be massive. It would be a better plan to go to the Tower first thing in the morning, have lunch there, then go to either the British Museum or St Paul's mid afternoon. You will see Tower Bridge while you are at the Tower (can't miss it) since they are right next door to each other.

D4: What you'll need to do is take your luggage to Kings Cross/St Pancras and drop your bags at Left Luggage before walking up the street to the Library.

Your plan is definitely doable w/ a bit of tweaking.

@janisj

Ah yes lack of sleep does that to me. I did mean the National Gallery. My bad. Charing Cross is more of a quick look at the train station. Some photos. Probably 15-20 minutes.

From visitlondon.com Buckingham is open with the Diamond special exhibit until 7 Oct, which I'll make with my plan now. Approx. how long does the changing of guards take (Incl arriving there early to get a good view)? I might do Buckingham Palace in the afternoon if I decide to drop the changing of guards as I hear it'll be less of a crowd?

Thanks for the tip on the British Museum. I had wanted to see the Tower Bridge for the night view, but I guess that isn't too much of a compromise.

Thanks a load for the suggestions!

You can always see the bridge (and lots of other buildings) at night too. All of the other places you mention are daytime sites so in the evening you can go anywhere you want to see the lights/take night photos. When I'm in London I seldom return to the hotel til well after dark.

"From visitlondon.com Buckingham is open with the Diamond special exhibit until 7 Oct, which I'll make with my plan now. Approx. how long does the changing of guards take (Incl arriving there early to get a good view)? "

That's why I asked when in October you are traveling. The Palace tours do end on Oct 7. The Changing of teh Guard usually eats up at least 1.5 hours -- mostly just standing in place waiting.

"I might do Buckingham Palace in the afternoon if I decide to drop the changing of guards as I hear it'll be less of a crowd?"

Not quite sure what you mean by that. The crowds hanging around for the Changing in the Guard have nothing to do with the tours of the inside of the Palace. There is no more or less crowded time inside the Palace -- since everyone is on timed tickets and enter in the same sized groups. If anything - the first tours in the morning will be a little less crowded since no one entered before them.

But just to clarify - the Changing of the Guard and touring the Palace are entirely different things.

Victoria & Albert is a great museum. With the short amount of time you have in London, I'd see the V & A rather than the British Library. Consider doing the London Eye, afternoon tea (perhaps at Fortnum & Mason - St. James' Restaurant), a guided group "pub walk" one evening, and theatre tickets one evening. I was in Kensington Palace in April and was quite disappointed. It has a very strange exhibit which gives no feel for life in the Palace. If you can tour Buckingham, that would be fab. I did that decade ago (plus the Royal Mews) and loved. I also don't see the attraction of Charing Cross Rail station.

Note: looks like you have 3 days in Rome, not 1.5.

If this was my trip, I'd definitely skip Versailles and I'd skip Florence. If you skipped Florence you could add a day to Paris (PLUS the day you'd add by not going to Versailles) and a day to Rome.

It's not that I don't like Florence (well OK, it's not a favorite) but Venice and Rome are so fun that I'd want more time there.

V&A seems to be highly recommended! Guess it's going over RAH and Kensington for now. Is it plausible to visit St Paul's on the morning of Day 4? Before returning to the hotel to check out (Assuming a somewhat central location for the hotel). I don't plan to do too much in Paris after I check in on Day 4, so a slightly later train (3-4pm) is no problem.

Regarding Versailles. Yea I'm kind of torn between keeping and cutting it. I guess I'll make a decision when I firm up my Paris leg. But I think for me 3 days in a major city should be just about right to "get a feel of it", so I'll leave Florence in for now.

Keep the advice coming guys. Really helpful.

"Note: looks like you have 3 days in Rome, not 1.5."

>>D13 - Train to Rome in the morning
D14-15 - Rome<<

means 1/2 to 3/4 of a day on Oct 13
One full day on Oct 14.
Fly home on Oct 15. Even w/ an afternoon flight there wouldn't be much/any time to do anything.

Hmm I found that the plane ticket on 17th Oct back to SIN is cheaper than the one for 16th, even with an additional day's hotel factored in (if booking.com is to be trusted!). So I'll probably stay for an additional night, giving me 2 full days in Rome with whatever's left after the train from Florence.

My opinion in order of preference -- purely subjective:

1. Tower of London
2. Everything else.

To me, this is the can't-miss sight...it opens at 10:00 and you won't be out of there till after 13:00 or 14:00 at best.

Remember to get your 2-for-1 coupons to go with your transport pass (purchased at a train station). See my thread from last year:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/special-2-for-1-days-out-coupon-thread.cfm

ADDITIONAL OPINION: While I love the V&A and National Gallery, In each of my four trips to London, I have never failed to go to the British Library. Not because it's "better" than the other two -- they certainly have more to see -- but because there are amazing things there that you just cannot find in American museums.

AND...IMHO...The changing of the guard will take up too much of your precious London time.

SS

I realize it is "your" trip and your travel "style", but when you plan it down to "maybe 15 minutes to see Charing Cross--just to take some pics" it just boggles my mind

Do you want to see King's Cross Station with the Harry Potter cart and scene rather than Charing Cross?

Which sights are important to you depends on your interests. The British Library is amazing -- to anybody interested in literature or music. And I could spend days in the British Museum. The V&A is devoted to decorative arts: silver, glass, furniture, etc. I'm less interested in this, more interested in paintings. So we didn't go there until about our fifth visit to London.

Significant omissions: the Churchill War Rooms, the Eye, the Globe Theatre. The War Rooms I found fascinating; it is the underground bunker where Winston Churchill and his staff spent WWII, the real thing just as they left it, history frozen in time. The Eye at dusk or at night will give you a huge view of London.

It might still be warm in Rome when you get there. If you're from Singapore, you're used to wearing jeans in warm weather. However, I'd consider throwing a pair of lighter weight pants, ones easy to wash and dry. You haven't left much time in your schedule to wash clothes -- except at night in your hotel room. And jeans take forever to dry.

Oh - on your original posts you listed flying out on the 15th - that is where my 1.5 days calculation came in.

But it looks like you meant the 16th and now that has changed to the 17th.

So you now have a bit more time for Rome . . . But IMO you do still need more time in London and Paris.