2 Weeks in Europe. Please advise!

Old Aug 11th, 2012, 12:25 AM
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2 Weeks in Europe. Please advise!

Hi, I've just started planning a Europe trip for myself, likely to take place sometime this October. I've worked out a rough draft of the cities that I want to visit, with a general focus on the arts (architecture, history, etc). I have not actually planned the itinerary for each day as yet, so advice on that is much appreciated as well. Please note that I'll be flying in from, and back to, Singapore. I'll be getting the France-Italy 4D Eurail.

Day 1 - Arrive morning/noon in London.
Day 2 - London
Day 3 - London. Leave for Paris in the afternoon/evening (2.5H).
Day 4 - Paris
Day 5 - Paris
Day 6 - Versailles (Day Trip)
Day 7 - Leave for Lyon (2.5H). Lunch in Lyon. Leave for Marseille at noon-ish (2H). Leave for Nice in the evening (2.5H). *Eurail Day 1*
Day 8 - Leave for Milan (5H) Lunch in Milan. Leave for Venice in the evening (2.5H) *Eurail Day 2*
Day 9 - Venice
Day 10 - Venice
Day 11 - Leave for Florence (2H). *Eurail Day 3*
Day 12 - Florence
Day 13 - Leave for Rome in the afternoon (2H) *Eurail Day 4*
Day 14 - Rome
Day 15 - Leave Rome in the afternoon/at night.

*The durations for the train journeys are from raileurope.com

So in all I'd have:
2.5D London
3D Paris (Incl 1D Versailles)
1D Lyon-Marseille-Nice
0.5D Milan
2D Venice
2.5D Florence
2.5D Rome

Day 7 is my "rest" day if you will. Might not actually hop off and on the train if I don't feel up to it.

So, that's it at this stage. Please comment!
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 12:47 AM
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Let's just take the Paris/Lyon/Marseilles/Nice leg. What time are you leaving Paris do that you can have a 1.5 hour (that's the minimum in a restaurant if you don't do a sandwich from a shop) and be done by noon? Why go to Nice at all?

You don't have enough time in any if your cities to enjoy them. Cut it way way down, and I would stay in one country only for a two week trip so you can actually get used to the culture. We have been in France for over two weeks now and I'm only just starting to say oui instead of si for yes.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 01:03 AM
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I'm tired just trying to think about what to say so my first comment would be to recommend that you travel light because it looks as though you'll be dragging your luggage around if you expect to fit as much into the 2 weeks as you hope to.

I also think you're not taking into account the amount of time it takes to get from the airport/rail station to your accommodation. Check in and check out takes time away from your sightseeing time. Day 1-3 for example, you have potentially 48 hours but since you'll be sleeping for 8 of those? That's 40 hours in London.

Most of all? day 7 confuses the heck out of me, you are travelling to Lyon to eat lunch (maybe a late breakfast might be a better description) but you want to leave at noon-ish, what do you expect to see Then a 2 hour train trip to Marseilles for 3-4 hours before you leave for Nice.

The only days I can see that your itinerary works time wise are day 4-6, 9/10, 12 and 14.
The rest of your days will be swallowed up with travelling, checking in and out of your accommodations and any other travel delay that may be thrown your way.

I do wish I had your energy
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 01:17 AM
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WAy too much travel I've spent weeksin london and always find new things and places to visit.itself for each of 40 years, also Paris.Even Lyon needs several days. Cut back
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 01:39 AM
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Don't get the rail pass.

If you do want to do this much travel, then check out the fares at the French and Italian railways website and buy your tickets in advance.

In France there is a quota for passholders on the fast trains, in Italy you have to pay a reservation fee and in both countries, tickets go on sale well in advance and the earlier you book the cheaper there are.

I also agree with the others that you are trying to cram in way too much for a two week trip. Two months would be more like it...
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 02:55 AM
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Hi M,
>2.5D London
3D Paris (Incl 1D Versailles)
1D Lyon-Marseille-Nice
0.5D Milan
2D Venice
2.5D Florence
2.5D Rome<

That is not a vacation, it is a trek.
If your employer ever made you do that, you would quit.

You have a week in Italy - Good.
Add to that a week in either Paris or London.

Enjoy your visit.

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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 03:57 AM
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Thanks people

Yea I do agree with the general consensus that I'm cramming, but I've always been a "speedy" tourist. Personal preference, I suppose. But looking at it again, I guess I do have to cut it down quite a bit to not kill myself.

This trip is my first to Europe, and as such it's more of a "run through lots of stuff and see what I'd like to see more of next time" kind of thing.

For now, I'm thinking something like:
D1 - Arrive in London in the morning.
D2-3 - London
D4 - Eurostar to Paris in the afternoon.
D5-6 - Paris
D7 - Versailles
D8 - Fly to Venice in the morning
D9-10 - Venice
D11 - Train to Florence in the morning
D11-12 - Florence
D13 - Train to Rome in the morning
D14-15 - Rome
End

Does that sound more plausible? Or is it still too rushed? Venice is somewhat non-negotiable for me so should I cut out Florence too? In that case, would it be better to take the train or the plane to Rome?

Again, thanks for all the help guys
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 04:24 AM
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Don't cut out Venice - it's magical!

This is a much much better itinerary. It will give you time in each location to see the sights.

You have enough time for Venice and for Florence - for a taste of those cities. You'll have a small taste of each city and you can go back and focus on one or two during your next trip.

Once you're on the trip you'll be glad you didn't stick to your first itinerary, especially day 7 which made my head spin!! Did you know you can bring a picnic on the trains, including wine? Many people doing long train journeys do that.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 05:03 AM
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If your goal is to see the inside of trains/train stations and to say you passed through each of these cities then your itinerary is perfect. If you want to see anything of England, France or Italy then you need to drop half the schedule.

It seems you are trying to get your money's worth from a four day France/Italy pass. It's likely advanced purchase tickets from each countries train websites (not Raileurope) will be cheaper.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 06:47 AM
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@kybourbon Were you referring to my first post or my revised schedule in my later comment (#6).

Yep thanks for the train tickets tip. As it stands now I only seem to require train tickets in Italy so it should be less of a hassle to buy. Cheers.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 06:57 AM
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Oh and on what to wear. I'm thinking 2 pairs of jeans, pair of boots for rainy days, pair of sneakers, polo tees/shirts with a light sweater. Not really intending to go to those upmarket places. Should be fine?
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 07:45 AM
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well anyway for lots of great info on the train portion check out these IMO superb site with lots of great info and not just selling things - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

Have you considered taking the overnight train Paris to Venice - save time and money on a hotel night - www.thello.com has some super great advance fares - even flying takes up half a day - Schlepping out to airport - waiting for flight, which could be late - waiting for bags on other end - getting into Venice, etc.

I would advise as always after decades of European train travel to go first class if on the trip of a lifetime - lost more relaxed journey - not to say 2nd class is a cattle car but first class so so much nicer - lots easier to stow luggage - often lots of empty seats to sprawl out in - 2nd class IME often quite full - and if going first class then yes the France-Italy railpass may save you money so do not dismiss it out of hand without first comparing prices - in 2nd class just do online discounts - but if want flexibility to chose which trains as you go then a pass may well be a good deal - but yes in France there are passholder seat quotas so book those when you buy your pass - if you find the pass cost effective. In Italy there is rarely any problem booking trains with passes IME and yes figure in the 10 euros extra per train.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 08:33 AM
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re your new plan - It is better but you basically have very little time in London or Paris. Arriving London in the AM/immigration/traveling to your hotel/checking in/dealing with jet lag . . . day one is about shot.

An afternoon train to Paris means not doing much of anything that day (you lose an hour w/ the time change). So really 2 days in London & 2 days in Paris.

And Rome is even worse . . . you really can't do anything on your last day so only 1.5 free days in Rome.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 08:46 AM
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Your revised plan is much better, plus I like PalenQ's suggestion about the overnight train.

Although I'd prefer to visit more countryside and small towns (not just a series of big cities) that is hard to do as a solo traveler since that is best done by car with a driver + navigator. I would therefore normally say to take some day tours out of each big city but there is so little time in each, I don't recommend that in your case.

Given your self-description as a fast traveler and that this is sort of a first time 'survey' trip..I think it is a pretty good plan now. Some people are so into slow travel and have the time and budget to return again and again, they have a hard time understanding your type of travel.

Make use of the hop-on, hop-off double decker bus tours in London, Paris and Rome to help you get oriented and see more.

Have a great trip!
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 08:56 AM
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" Some people are so into slow travel and have the time and budget to return again and again, they have a hard time understanding your type of travel."

I'm not into slooooow travel. But I AM into practicalities. London is HUGE and just the logistics of just getting from one place to another eats up lots of time.

And Rome is very large and can be more confusing than either Paris or London - so 1.5 days is about long enough to start to get acclimated but not a whole lot more. Maybe 3 major sites max.

Much as it pains me to say so . . . I'd skip London. You don't have enough time to do it justice anyway and those days could be added to Paris and Rome. So you could book a flight directly on to Paris from LHR and start your holiday there.

OR - if London is a 'must', skip Paris. Add a couple of days to London and then fly on to Venice.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 09:06 AM
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The "survey travel" concept is fine if you're actually going to have enough time in each place to get a feel for it. A fly-by, though, can't possibly leave enough of an impression for anyone to be able to evaluate a place or compare it to any other. If you don't even leave yourself enough time to get acclimated and have a sense of where you are and what's around you to be investigated, you can't possibly end up with any reasonable basis for future decisions. Your impressions could be entirely erroneous, on either end of the spectrum - positive or negative.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 09:13 AM
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I'd skip London, and I'd skip Versailles. I still think you are just not realizing the logistics of getting into a city and to the hotel--and back out to the airport and then to the hotel, etc. You'll be able to say "I've been there", but nothing else. And as others say, "just say no" to RailEurope, and to any rail pass. point to point tickets.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 09:19 AM
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Way too much.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Ah, can't find an edit button on this site. Would much appreciate it if comments can be explicitly directed at the exact version of my itinerary as I firm it up along the way.

I've done up a preliminary draft of my London leg, not sure about other cities yet. Please critique!

D1 - Flight lands at 0715. Settle into hotel by 1300. National Museum. Dinner. Trafalgar Square at night. Quick look around Charing Cross.

D2 - Westminster Abbey. Buckingham Palace for the changing of guards, maybe a quick tour. Lunch. A bit of Hyde Park (weather dependent). Royal Albert Hall OR Kensington Palace. Dinner. Big Ben.

D3 - British Museum. Lunch. St Paul's Cathedral OR Tower of London (leaning towards the latter). Dinner. Tower Bridge.

D4 - Check out of hotel. British Library. Lunch. Quick look around King's Cross if there's time. Eurostar from St Pancras.

Feels pretty ok in my head. It's quite busy, but I've done somewhat similar schedules (avg 3 attractions/day, 2-3h each) and I enjoyed those.


The overnight train from Paris to Venice indeed makes more sense. Gare du Nord is so much more accessible than CDG. One question though. If I do go with the point to point tickets, should I purchase them separately from each rail company's website or should I use raileurope? Is there any discount on the former that's not available on the latter? One problem that I'm facing is that Thello doesn't seem to have an English version, which although can be worked around, is a minor annoyance that I'd rather not put up with.
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Old Aug 11th, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Don't buy from RailEurope. It's a reseller that marks up the ticket prices significantly and then charges you an arm and a leg on top of that to send you the tickets.. ALWAYS buy from the individual rail companies (and the earlier you buy, the cheaper the tickets will be).
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