jellybellymelly

Hi, there are 2 of us in our mid 20s who are planning on a 14 full days trip to the above places in mid April. We will not be driving any leg of the journey (intending to take trains), and will be flying in Amsterdam, flying out Munich. We are interested in a mix of cities/towns/nature.

Will appreciate comments on anything else we should not miss (given our itinerary), and especially the logistics - i.e. whether it's worth getting any rail passes, which train tickets should we buy in advance etc.

We might be able to afford an extra day - in which case, appreciate comments on where to slot in the 15th day.

Day 1: Amsterdam (Rijksmuseum, Vondelpark, Albert Cuyp Market, Zaanse Schans)
Day 2: Amsterdam (Anne Frank House, "nine little streets", floating flower market, canal cruise)
Day 3: Amsterdam (Keukenhof)
Day 4: Train to Bruges (sightseeing in city centre)
Day 5: Train to Ghent (sightseeing in city centre), and to Brussels (stay the night)
Day 6: Train to Frankfurt. Side trip to Heidelberg (by train)
Day 7: Frankfurt. Day trip to Rhine Valley (Train to Mainz to St Goar to Rudesheim back to Frankfurt main station)
Day 8: Take the Romantic Road Coach that departs from Frankfurt, to Wurzburg and to Rothenburg ob der Tauber (stay the night)
Day 9: Continue on coach to Munich (stop at Dinkelsbuhl along the way). Night in Munich.
Day 10: Day tour to Neuschwanstein Castle. Night in Munich.
Day 11: Train to Salzburg (Salzburg Old Town, Mirabell Palace, Salzburg Cathedral, Hellbrunn Castle, Salzburg Fortress). Night in Salzburg.
Day 12: Day trip to Berchtesgaden (Bus 840), Lake Königssee. Night in Salzburg.
Day 13: Day trip to Hallstatt (Bus 150 to Bad Ischl, train from Bad Ischl to Hallstatt railway station, ferry across the lake): salt mine, boat ride. Night in Salzburg.
Day 14: Train back to Munich. Sightseeing in Munich (Marienplatz, Victuals Market, English Garden).

Specifically on the Romantic Road portion, grateful for any comments on alternative modes of transport which may be more feasible / economically efficient.

Many thanks in advance!

Man_in_seat_61

Mid-20s is a bit vague when it's so crucial to know if you're under 26 (Youth Eurail) or over 26 (adult rate Eurail)! ;0)

If over 26, I suspect regular tickets will be significantly cheaper than a Eurail pass, assuming you buy a cheap pre-booked ticket for Brussels-Frankfurt.

If under 26, regular tickets will probably still be cheaper, but a small amount extra may be worth paying for the flexibility of unlimited travel, any time, anywhere.

Check www.eurail.com to work out the best pass for you, divide by the number of days you plan to use it, as your yardstick.

Now check Amsterdam to Bruges at www.b-europe.com (around €48 on regular IC trains, price using Thalys high-speed trains for the trunk haul varies)

www.belgianrail.be for journeys wholly within Belgium.

www.bahn.de/en or www.b-europe.com for Brussels to Frankfurt

www.bahn.de/en within Germany

www.oebb.at within Austria.

Fussgaenger

I want to address Days 6-8 of your trip...

Day 6: Train to Frankfurt. Side trip to Heidelberg (by train)
Day 7: Frankfurt. Day trip to Rhine Valley (Train to Mainz to St Goar to Rudesheim back to Frankfurt main station)
Day 8: Take the Romantic Road Coach that departs from Frankfurt, to Wurzburg and to Rothenburg ob der Tauber (stay the night)

You'll be spending 6 hours + on the train on Day 6 if you overnight in Frankfurt. You are visiting Heidelberg for several hours that day, I guess. But you are staying in Frankfurt and not allowing any time for Frankfurt?? And then you're heading back north to the Middle Rhine Valley?

If Frankfurt is not a destination, then I suggest you just take the train from Brussels to a Middle Rhine Valley destination on Day 6. Koblenz (Rhine train hub) is less than 3.5 hours from Brussels. Instead of visiting Heidelberg castle (perhaps your reason for the trip to H'berg) you can take a tour of Marksburg Castle in Braubach (only 10 minutes from Koblenz.) This castle is "virtually unchanged from medieval times" as the website says and represents the only never-destroyed castle tour option.

Braubach and Marksburg: http://www.wald-laeufer.de/fotos.bil...h-am-Rhein.jpg

Braubach's charming old town:
http://www.romantischer-rhein.de/upl...ltstadt_02.jpg
http://djtravel.homestead.com/files/...hotel_1610.jpg

Heidelberg's castle is actually nothing like a castle anymore as a result of the rebuilding that has gone on there. In fact, Germans aren't sure what to call the current mess and refer to it as a palace (Schloß.)

Anyway, on Day 6 after Braubach, you take the train back to Koblenz (10 minutes) fetch your bags (which you left in a Koblenz station locker) and continue to some cool Rhine base town a little further south on your intended tour route (Rüdesheim? St. Goar? Oberwesel? Bacharach?)

On Day 7 you can do your tour of the Rhine towns and that p.m. return to your base town. There's a lot to do in this area, more than a day's worth, including Rheinfels Castle (ruins and museum) in St. Goar, a river cruise, the Rüdesheim and Aßmannshausen chairlifts, wine tasting, scenic hikes, and more:

Rheinfels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxFF80wORNQ
Der Landgraf (next to Rheinfels) - http://sr47.de/t/pics/56e71e44de.jpg
Wine Museum / tasting in St. Goarshausen: http://www.rhein-lahn-kreis.de/image...emou7dthn601h7
Oberwesel town wall walk: http://www.oberwesel.de/en/wandern0/stadtmauerrundweg/
Ringticket: http://www.bingen-ruedesheimer.de/li...icket/?lang=en
Rhine Castle Trail: http://ein-weg-ist-ein-weg.de/wordpr..._0302_1000.JPG
Rhine cruise: http://www.bingen-ruedesheimer.de/wp...t-Objekt-1.jpg

On Day 8 take the train to Würzburg and Rothenburg on your own. If you were to take the RR bus from Frankfurt, you would NOT have enough time to see anything in Würzburg and only enough time to RUN through the Residenz palace and the very attractive Hofkirche (chapel.)

On Day 9 you board the RR bus (not a trip I recommend as there are other ways to see this part of Bavaria but the point is you could continue from there as scheduled.)

Fussgaenger

I neglected to provide the Marksburg website:
http://www.marksburg.de/english/frame_nj.htm

nytraveler

Have you looked at the actual time in transit between all of the places you want to go each day?

I fear that unless you're beginning your days at 7 am, rushing around all day grabbing quick meals on the run, and sightseeing well into the evening (if things are still open then) you will just run out of time on at least several of these days.

You might consider looking at:

Bahn.de to see the actual train schedule

Check out the Michelin green guides to have some idea of how long it actually takes to see things

I fear you will end up with a very frustrating, exhausting and expensive blur rather than an enjoyable vacation

Also you need to confirm which places are available i April (mid April is ery late for the best show of flowers)

wanderful

This two-week itinerary is dominated by various "modes of transport." Just look at the number of times the word "train" is mentioned. You're spending way too much time traveling from place to place, trying to touch too many bases.

jellybellymelly

Grateful for all the comments. We are 25, so I suppose we will qualify for youth discounts for rail tickets. Thanks for all the helpful links for transport around the different regions.

I have indeed encountered most difficulty planning the Germany part of the trip, especially the part linking Belgium to Munich. Must-visits would be the Rhine Valley, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, and Neuschwanstein Castle.

Thanks to Fussgaenger for the very helpful comments. Frankfurt is not a must-visit, but thought that as a central hub it would be easier to travel to places, and the Romantic Road Coach departs from there. Not sure how easy it would be to travel to Rothenburg and to Munich without taking the coach. I suppose we can then add the extra day to the Rhine Valley region following your suggestions.

jellybellymelly

Included Heidelberg not purely for the castle, but mainly because we've read that it's a very beautiful/charming town (so I guess we will be fine to skip the Marksburg Castle).

I suppose on Day 6 we could then go straight from Brussels to Rüdesheim? And take a rest from the long journey. Then sightsee around the area on Day 7 as suggested. the Ringticket looks good.

Fussgaenger

"I suppose we can then add the extra day to the Rhine Valley region following your suggestions."

My suggestion eliminates Heidelberg, a just-okay place IMO and a lengthy detour - and replaces it with a quicky-visit in the Rhine Valley (a UNESCO World Heritage site)-
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1066

You can use the extra day as you please.

"Not sure how easy it would be to travel to Rothenburg and to Munich without taking the coach."

It's very easy by train. The train won't follow the RR route but the RR route isn't so very scenic anyway and if you check that bus schedule you will see that the time you get in the RR towns is virtually NONE, maybe enough to find a restroom and buy a post card.

If you see both Würzburg and Rothenburg, that's enough of the RR given the time you have anyway, IMO.

The fastest way from Rothenburg to Munich takes you there via Nuremberg in about 2.5 hours vs. 5+ hours on the plodding RR bus. So you could spend 3 hours in Nuremberg if you like and still get to Munich by around the same time. Nuremberg is a real city but it has a really nice old town zone and some really fine pubs in addition to some important sights:

http://media.belocal.de/120712/1152x768_0,0c.jpg

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/nurnpubs.htm

http://tourismus.nuernberg.de/en/sig...-interest.html

The RR bus doesn't go to Nuremberg

There are other great destinations you could hit on the way as well, Nuremberg is just one.

Fussgaenger

"I suppose on Day 6 we could then go straight from Brussels to Rüdesheim? And take a rest from the long journey. Then sightsee around the area on Day 7 as suggested. the Ringticket looks good."

Rüdesheim is fine if a bit over-touristed. It's about 1 hour by direct train from Koblenz. I prefer St. Goar (about 25 min. from Koblenz) or Boppard (about 15 m. from Koblenz) on the opposite river bank but if the Ring tour interests you it may be more convenient to stay in Rüdesheim. You can take the train from any of these places to Würzburg easily enough. I've stayed in Osterspai (near Marksburg,) Bingen, and Bacharach as well, and if you don't find the digs you like in your preferred town, well, don't worry, one of these other places will work just fine too.

"(so I guess we will be fine to skip the Marksburg Castle)."

NO, NOT IMO. Heidelberg, Hellbrunn, and Neuschwanstein... none of them are genuine castles. N'stein is a late 19th-century fake, a palatial residence, not a medieval castle anymore than Cinderella's castle in Disneyland (which is only slightly younger than N'stein!) You should not ride the train right past the real thing when it's right there for the taking.

PalenQ

If under 26, regular tickets will probably still be cheaper, but a small amount extra may be worth paying for the flexibility of unlimited travel, any time, anywhere.>

Yes for all those trains where you are moving nearly daily check out the 15-consecutive day Eurail Youthpass - great sites to plan a rail trip - www.seat61.com - Man in Seat 61 who posts above his commercial site; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

You can easily take a train Salzburg to Puttnang-A to hook up with trains to Hallstatt - at least one way - the bus does go thru the wondrous Lake District however but probably takes longer than going all by train so on the return take the train with your pass if you end up getting one and having simplifies everything so so much.

jellybellymelly

Have taken into account all comments and we decided to omit Belgium in its entirety, and allocate more time to the Rhine area; hopefully that will be more feasible.

Days 1 - 3 (Amsterdam)

Day 4: Train to Cologne (sightseeing in city centre, night in Cologne)
Day 5: Train to Koblenz (leave luggage in lockers), to Braubach to visit Marksburg Castle, train from Koblenz to Rudesheim (stay the night)
Day 6: Sightseeing around Ruesheim ("Romantic Tour" ticket:cable car, chairlift to Assmannshausen, castle Rheinstein)
Day 7: Cruise from Rudesheim to St. Goar, then train to Oberwesel, and then to Bacharach. Train back to Bingen, then ferry back to Rudesheim (night in Rudesheim)

If we decide to omit taking the RR coach and take the train instead (then we might have to skip Dinkelsbuhl):

Day 8: Train to Wurzburg (leave luggage in lockers and sightsee) and to Rothenburg ob der Tauber (stay the night)
Day 9: Train to Munich. Night in Munich.
Day 10: Day tour to Neuschwanstein Castle. Night in Munich.

Day 11: Train to Salzburg (Salzburg Old Town, Mirabell Palace, Salzburg Cathedral, Hellbrunn Castle, Salzburg Fortress). Night in Salzburg.
Day 12: Day trip to Berchtesgaden (Bus 840), Lake Königssee. Night in Salzburg.
Day 13: Day trip to Hallstatt (Bus 150 to Bad Ischl, train from Bad Ischl to Hallstatt railway station, ferry across the lake): salt mine, boat ride. Night in Salzburg.

Day 14: Train back to Munich. Sightseeing in Munich (Marienplatz, Victuals Market, English Garden).

jellybellymelly

On transportation, just to confirm, the Eurail pass does not cover transport WITHIN cities? I.e. transport within Amsterdam, within Munich.

It does appear that point-to-point tickets will be cheaper, especially since we have omitted Belgium from our itinerary. The 11 Days Eurail pass for youths is around €365 for 3 countries.

Have tried calculating the point-to-point, but not all fares are available online (e.g. Rudesheim to Frankfurt). Below are the fares per person on a 2 youths travelling together basis. Roughly costs €150.

Amsterdam to Cologne: €19; Cologne to Koblenz: €19; Koblenz to Rudesheim: €13.6; Frankfurt to Wurzburg: €29 (ICE direct) – saver fare; €22 (1 change: RE, RB); Wurzburg to Rothenburg: €13.6; Rothenburg to Munich: €24 – saver fare (2 changes: RB,IC): ~ 3 hours; Bayern Ticket – for Munich to Salzburg €14 X 2 (Days 11 & 14).

However, I chanced upon the German Rail Pass "Springtime Special 2016" – 7 flexi days: €176.00. Which I suppose will include travels WITHIN cities?

In light of our itinerary, wondering if it's worthwhile / more convenient to get the German Rail Pass, and get point-to-point tickets for Amsterdam to Cologne + 2 X Bayern Tickets for the Salzburg leg.

Fussgaenger

"Amsterdam to Cologne: €19
Cologne to Koblenz: €19; Koblenz to Rudesheim: €13.6"

Your costs total €103 for two. But you can do these trips all on ONE TICKET if you wish, including an overnight stopover in Cologne, and probably for less €.

Start station: A'dam.
Destination: Rüdesheim.
Stopover #1: Cologne (18-20 hours?)
Stopover #2: Braubach (you'll leave bags at the TI office)

I do not know your dates but I just tried this and pulled up a fare of €58 for two on April 16.

Like all saver fares, any high-speed trains must be used as according to the schedule you choose at the time of purchase. The journeys between A'dam and Koblenz are high-speed trains; from Koblenz to Braubach to Rüdesheim you are on local trains. On these trains you do NOT have to follow the schedule. So you can spend all the time you like during your stopover in Braubach and leave for Rüdesheim when you please on any local train.

"Rothenburg to Munich: €24 – saver fare (2 changes: RB,IC): ~ 3 hours"

That's €48 for two. You can save €20 by using a Bayern Ticket instead (€28/2.) And the Bayern ticket allows you to use subway, tram and bus transport within Munich that same day as well, for more savings.

"Bayern Ticket – for Munich to Salzburg €14 X 2 (Days 11 & 14)."

That's €56 total. You can save €4 by using the Guten Tag ticket on the Meridian trains between Munich and Salburg - €26/2/day.

If you get lucky and find a €58 saver fare for A'dam - Rüdesheim, you'll save about €70+ total with these tips.

The special price rail pass will not provide transportation within Munich or other cities. The Bayern ticket does.

Fussgaenger

BTW, I notice you did not compute the costs for the trains on Day 7. That fare is €6.20 each for St. Goar - Bingen (stopover as you wish in Oberwesel and Bacharach.) The ferry will cost maybe €2 each.

PalenQ

Yes the German Railpass is a better deal because it is cheaper per day and also can be used to go to Prague, Salzburg and Verona without additional cost and it can indeed be used in cities on S-Bahns which are very useful in cities like Munich - of course you have to activate the pass for a day to do that so would only do if you are using a day on day trips or to get to the city.

But the efficacy of a pass is often whether you want unfettered access to trains - to just show up at stations and hop any train - not being restricted to slower and IME less comfy regional trains.

Do the maths and if at all close go for the pass and IME first class is well worth the extra costs for many reasons.

jellybellymelly

Very grateful to Fuss for giving such to-the-point and helpful comments; will definitely source for the saver tickets. And the Bayern Ticket at €28 does seem to work wonders - will keep that in mind.

Based on the above I think we are more or less convinced that it will be more worthwhile in our case not to get any rail passes.

On a separate note, we might swap a day / add an additional day to do a Munich to Zugspitze day trip. In that case the train ride from Munich to Garmisch is €23 for 2 (saver fare); but I suppose the Bayern Ticket works as well (for €5 more we can travel within Munich itself)?

I have chanced upon the Meinfernbus Flixbus though - is that a reliable bus service? It does seem to match train prices / may even be cheaper for a point-to-point direct transport (e.g. Munich central bus station to Salzburg central station one way for 2 pax at €18). However, appears that the downside is that the travel duration is generally longer than train rides...

Fussgaenger

The price of €23 that you found at the DB website for Munich-Garmisch is not a point-to-point "saver fare" on high-speed trains. This is actually a regional day pass that is good for unlimited travel on one day - so for a DAY TRIP, Munich-Garmisch-Munich will cost just €23 for two on a "Regio-Ticket Werdenfels." Here is a map of the area it covers:

http://www.bahn.de/p/view/mdb/bahnin..._sept_2015.pdf

It is valid on the S-Bahn in Munich but not on subways, trams and buses.

This ticket is not only cheaper for two than the Bayern Ticket, but also there is no 9 am restriction like with the Bayern ticket - you can use it at any hour of the day:

"Täglich ab 0.00 Uhr des Geltungstages bis 3.00 Uhr des Folgetages" (in English that's from midnght throughout the day until 3:00 am the following morning - 27 hours.)

http://www.bahn.de/regio_oberbayern/...rdenfels.shtml

Fussgaenger

Sorry, no experience with flixbus.

jellybellymelly

We have settled our accommodations and would like to purchase all necessary train tickets in advance (e.g. saver fares) all from DB Bahn; however, understand that it is non-refundable and we have to stick to the schedule for high-speed trains, so wanted to confirm the following (costs for 2):

1. Amsterdam to Cologne: €38 (saver fare)
2. Cologne to Rudesheim: €38 (saver fare) - 1 change, EC, VIA

Did the stopover search; cheaper to book separately.

3. Rudesheim to Rothenburg (3 hr 39 mins stopover at Würzburg to sightsee, arrive at Rothenburg at 4pm) - €48 (Question: Is the Bayern Ticket available for this route? Will save €20)

- Rothenburg to Munich, and round-trip Munich to Salzburg (don't need to purchase in advance, get the Bayern Ticket from the train station)


Would also like to confirm the understanding that we have to purchase the Bayern Ticket on the spot, and won't be able to reserve designated timeslots in advance. But I suppose the routes above from Rudesheim onwards hardly sell out (if at all)?

Many thanks.