bobdee

would like to return to montreal but old recollection is of a dirty city. What kind of shape is the city in nowadays?

dougd

Bob, my wife and I visit Montreal several times a year, and love it. Like any city, there are some areas that are funkier than others.The east end of St Catherine steet is a little sketchy, with sex shops, etc. However, Montreal in general is quite clean, and there are areas that are very pleasant and interesing. I would recommend the Square St. Louis area, or Sherbrooke around St. Denis. With the dollar so strong, there are great bargains to be had in Canada.

Susan

I go to Montreal occasionally on business. I know for a few years, I didn't exactly find the city attractive - the buildings were rundown, stores were empty, etc., and I couldn't see why people raved about it. But I was there last summer for 5 days and really enjoyed it. The economy seems to be improving and I thought it was much nicer.

charles

I was in Montreal last week. Went with great expectations and was greatly disappointed. THe city was very dirty, lots of very aggressive homeless people on the streets - which didn't feel particularly safe (and I'm a city person). I stayed around St. Denis/St. Laurent in what is supposed to be the happening area - and it wasn't. I basically found Montreal to be like Cleveland in the 70s. Very disappointing - it's the Denver of Canada. <BR> <BR>That said, I really liked Quebec city, especially outside the old town.

Daniel Williams

Having lived in Montreal for 5 years ('94-'99) and visited multiple times since I left, I will not let some of these attacks slide. Now I'm doing contractual work in Baltimore. <BR> <BR>I will grant you Montreal's not the cleanest in Canada, but there are FAR dirtier cities in the USA and elsewhere. And a lot of the city is quite pleasantly clean. Homeless. I can't argue with you there. There are a fair number...but so are there in many other interesting cities, such as NYC, Philly, DC, Paris, Toronto, and from what I've heard, San Francisco and Seattle to name a few. <BR> <BR>As for St. Denis/St. Laurent not being happening? THIS I have trouble believing...high-quality restaurants galore, lots of cafés with outdoor seating, lots of nightlife of all different types can be found on these streets. These streets buzz with energy at all hours; people-watching is great. What block were you at on Saint-Denis/St. Laurent? Old Montreal now also has a lively energy year-round due to many dot-com business opening up at lofts in this charming historical area. <BR> <BR>Montreal. Unlike may cities in the USA, you can walk for block after block after block even in the wee hours of the morning, even on side streets. Public transportation is kick-***; only Boston in the USA even comes close in this regard. Restaurants are world-class in quality, lots of fantastic boulangeries, patisseries, bucheries at many corners of the city. You'd be hard-pressed to find so many of these in other cities of similar size. Lots of stores with high quality, relatively inexpensive shopping abound. I can refer and have referred you to many of them in previous posts on Montreal. <BR> <BR>As for the east end of St. Catherine street being a little sketchy? True but I think there needs to be some clarification. Yes, there are sex shops, but these abound in the city (even in the heart of the financial district!) and are not viewed as an abomination to values in neighborhoods in the same way as they are in other more Puritan cities. The area around St. Laurent is considered the red-light district BUT I have walked past there at all hours. If someone asks for change or asks if you want company, walk on. Say "desole". Period. Same at the Berri St. interchange. Around Berri/UQAM you get some squeegee kids; they may ask for money but that will typically be that. I have walked by these places, mind you, at all hours, without a thought. There even are some good places to hang out for a beer or coffee in these areas, that many better-off citizens go to. Between St. Hubert and Papineau on Ste. Catherine is the Gay Village (definitely not for homophobes), which has gone through a significant revival to become one of the liveliest parts of the city. I feel safe here at all hours. Few blocks past Papineau, I will admit IS the sketchy part. <BR> <BR>

dougd

Charles, your negative experience in Montreal is very surprising. True, once the cool weather sets in the outdoor cafe scene shuts down, and true St. Catherine around ST Laurent is somewhat seedy, but I've never had a bad time in Montreal, and I've been there over a dozen times in the past few years. ST. Denis, especially above Sherbrooke, is a joy to walk down; the McGill area is always lively, Prince Arthur Street always has something going on on a nice day, the parks are beautifully laid out and safe. We've never felt threatened, although there are a fair amount of panhandlers downtown. I hate to sound like I'm part of the Montreal tourist bureau, but I can't agree with your conclusions - oh well, I guess everyone sees things differently.

charles

Daniel, <BR>Part of it may be that I cam from Boston - if I were coming from Baltimore (which is an awful place generally), Montreal might have looked better. Certainly there are US cities that are dirtier. And there are Canadian cities that are cleaner. But I never thought that we were supposed to be comparing Montreal to Baltimore, Newark, or the SOuth Side of Chicago. I compared Montreal to what I thought was its peer group - Boston, San Francisco, Washington DC. And it didn't fare well by comparison. <BR> <BR>Homelessness - certainly no worse than San Francisco. Worse than Boston. I just expected it to be much better because of the Canadian social system. The fact that its no worse than some of the worst places in the US for homelessness (ie San Francisco) is no ad for montreal as a city. <BR> <BR>The food I had was generally ok, with the exception of the patisseries, which were mediocre. THe croissants in particular were surprisingly and consistently poor across the whole province. The charcuteries were excellent, however. <BR> <BR>Mass transit I found to not be as good as Boston's, but certainly fine. And I didn't get the chance to eat at Toque, which is excellent by all accounts. <BR> <BR>I think the best way, once again, to sum up Montreal is that its a perfectly nice city, but nothing special. And I was expecting special. The obvious comparison in terms of expectations /reality is Denver - also a city you hear a number of great things about and then find out that the reality is considerably less. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Daniel Williams

Hi Charles <BR> <BR>May I start by saying Boston is a fabulous city; I always enjoy visiting. The public transit IS the best in the USA in Boston; food, nightlife, park space, open-mindedness toward differences really are superlative. But in my eyes, so is Montreal. <BR> <BR>Patisseries...sure there are bad ones in Montreal; I've had more than a few crappy croissants there myself *smile*. So let me recommend some good patisseries to you. You'd be hard-pressed to find better than these anywhere; they're even up to my difficult-to-please Parisian snob friends' standards. Patisserie la Petite Gascogne rue Laurier btwn. St. Denis and St. Laurent (this is a fab area too called Mile End). Patisserie Bruxelloise or Patisserie Belge (ave. Mont Royal E. and ave. du Parc). Some of the best patisseries are on side streets (Monsieur Pinchot on Brébeuf near Marie-Anne). And these are just a few; you'll also find fantastic breads at the latter three. L'Olive Gourmande in Old Montreal has kick-ass sandwiches and salads. Quieter, wealthy Westmount is as clean-as-a-whistle and has good patisseries also. <BR> <BR>Boston's "T" was great, I can't deny, but better than Montreal's? Hmmm...it's hard to compare two of the best systems I've been on. But Mtl's is better than San Fran and DC, even I dare to say NYC. That's pretty world-class. <BR> <BR>As for Montreal being nothing special? I would highly contend that supposition. Boston has its Commons which make IT special, but Montreal has Ile Ste-Helene and Mont-Royal which are delightful city park spaces for the summer months. Unlike MOST cities on the continent, the majority of the city can be walked in at all hours. Dining, shopping and nightlife are amongst the best I'VE seen anywhere. I can recommend some of the above for all tastes if you found the places you went mediocre (as anywhere, there are some so-so places). The commingling of English and French culture, combined with other cultural influences, give Montreal a distinct feel that is exciting, a feel that you will find nowhere else in the world. This is Quebec's big metropolis and urban Quebecois people give the city a unique French-influenced style and flair that separate it from all other cities on the continent. <BR> <BR>For me, the draw of Montreal was instant. I'll admit, it's got its down-sides: homelessness, attitude, political uncertainty and cleanliness (in parts). And Montreal does get quieter and sometimes bitterly cold during winter months (even when it's -30°C outside though I STILL find it FAR livelier than Baltimore during the summer). However, you find me another city in North America with as good restaurants, nightlife, open-mindedness and cultural opportunities where you can get a gorgeous 2-bedroom apartment for the equivalent of US$300/month. <BR> <BR>These are some of my thoughts. All the best to you...I hope to visit your fair city in the not-too-distant future. <BR> <BR>Regards, Dabn.

Monty

I had the pleasure of staying in Montreal for 2 months several summers ago. I was there on business. It was one of my favorite cities. Now it was over 20 ( 1978 ) years ago that I was there so maybe it has changed. I know that many cities in the US have changed over that last 20 years though most of the change has been to the good. <BR> <BR>I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is the best city in North America but I would sure rank it in the top 5. My favorite is San Francisco but I live in the SF Bay area so I am probably biased. <BR> <BR>I certainly do not remember Montreal is being particularly dirty. I stayed very close to downtown. In any event, I loved my stay there and would go back in a minute.

viv

have visited montreal many times in the past... one of my favorite Canadian cities..well designed easy to get around the metro is very clean and quite compared to Toronto subway system.. some French Canadians im sorry can be arrogant and ignorant..some of them seem to refuse to speak english when they hear you trying to ask a question in french..Drivers in Montreal have had the worst record in all of Canada..there is a speed limit in the city but you wouldnt know it. Dont i repeat Dont attempt to Jay-walk, use underpasses to cross the street its safer.. pedestrian crosswalks do not exist to drivers in Montreal you will spend all day waiting at the curb. I hope things have improved since i was last there.. shopping and night life is great in Montreal.. <BR>

Daniel Williams

Viv--- <BR> <BR>Glad to hear you like Montreal. As for some French Canadians being arrogant and ignorant...TRUE, but the same statement could be made about any people, English Canadians, Americans, Europeans, etc...Some of the all of the above are also really fantastic, open-minded, humble people. <BR> <BR>As for refusing to speak in English...what a shock that they would do that in FRENCH Canada. C'mon. Are they just as rude in Toronto where when you try to speak to them in French and they INSIST on speaking to you in English?

Monty

I never had any problem at all with quote "arrogant" French Canadians refusing to speak English. I do not speak French but had no trouble at all. I did run into many folks that did not speak English but they went our of their way to try to help me understand. With sign language, pointing and lots of smiles we managed just fine. After all, French is the official language of Quebec so why should anybody expect them to speak English. I have witnessed the same type of people complain about folks not speaking English in Mexico and other places. You may want to check your attitude before compaining about people being arrogant. You reap what you sow.

Ross

Hello everyone. <BR> <BR>As an American who speaks French fluently and visits Quebec 4 times a year, and has done so for the past 16 years, I have to say that I agree with the previous posters who have pointed out the fact that FRENCH is the official language in &lt;&lt;la belle province&gt;&gt;, and that the Quebecois should not be EXPECTED to speak English. If they happen to be able to speak English as a SECOND language, so be it. All I ask is that people be respectful of others. <BR> <BR>No offense intended to the other readers of this forum, only my personal observations. <BR> <BR>Ross.

Naneki

I spent a month in Montreal on business with only my high school French to rely on (many, many years ago!). I found that most Montrealers speak English so I did not have any language problems (with the exception of one hotel staff member who I discovered was a problem employee and was on the verge of getting fired). I did not find Montrealers to be any more rude, arrogant or ignorant than any other city -- you get those everywhere. I found Montrealers to be quite friendly. Also, as in every city, you have your nice areas and not-so-nice areas. Montreal is not run-down or dilapidated so I would recommend to bobdee, the original poster, to go ahead and return to Montreal ... IMHO

Shawn

I've lived in Montreal my whole life so maybe I shouldn't be posting here, which seems to be largely populated by business travellers and visitors. Montreal is REALLY recovering big time, and if you visited a few years back and were turned off by shuttered businesses on Ste. Catherine you'll be in for a pleasant surprise! Sure (to answer an earlier post) the Berri Square is kinda depressing -- I never go there. But Mount Royal is lovely in all four seasons. Ste. Catherine (between St. Laurent and Guy) is a great walk. Sherbrooke is like Montreal's Park Ave. St. Laurent evolves and morphs many times as you walk up from Old Montreal, but is always special. I'm glad someone posted some good croissanteries -- there are great French pastries to be had here! Real Montreal experiences to be had in Shwartz's smoked meat (of course), Cafe Italia in Little Italy... oh, and you have to have the real Quebec baked beans and tourtiere at La Binnerie!