Elizabeth_S

Thanks to all who answered an earlier question about Tasmania.......since then I've read lots of trip reports, watched travel videos, read guides, surfed tourist board websites and talked to people who've done similar trips.

Here's my problem - I can't seem to get engaged about the destination. My husband and I leave Toronto for Jan/Feb/Mar - 2 years ago we rented an apartment in Rome for that time and last year we visited South America. We've always assumed New Zealand and Australia (with a side trip to somewhere in Asia - probably Cambodia) will be next year (2007). But I'm beginning to think the destination doesn't line up with our interests, which are (in priority)

- Ancient civilizations
- Art and Architecture
- Wildlife
- Scenery

Overlaid on all of the above is dining and food in general - seeking out markets, preparing meals in our rented accommodations, planning restaurant visits, writing a blog about our food experiences, etc. We are definitely the Michelin "worth a detour" type of travelers and have been known to walk past a famous tourist destination because the restaurant we want to go to is closing for lunch soon. (We’re not big winery visitors – though)

We are in good physical shape and do a lot of walking and hiking while we're away, but we don't hike for hiking's sake (well, not often, anyway – certainly not as a primary focus for a lengthy period of time).

Our trip to South America is a good example - the highlights for us were Machi Picchu, Easter Island and Galapagos - we also went to Patagonia and rounded Cape Horn on a cruise and went to the Lake District of Chile - of course we had a lovely time there but it was more focused on scenery and I wouldn't have wanted the entire trip to be that way.

So much of what I read and see about NZ/Oz is prefaced with “for outdoorsy people” – which we’re not.

Naturally there are lots of things I’ve found that sound great – for example in New Zealand the Art Deco towns of Napier and Ranfurly sound terrific as we love Art Deco. And I cannot overstate how big a Lord of the Rings fan my husband is (he can literally recite the movies – because he can recite the books!) so I’m sure he would be interested in seeing many of the locations.

In Australia we would like to dive in the GBR and visit Melbourne (particularly because of the restaurants!) but might take a pass on Ayer’s Rock (I understand you’re discouraged from climbing for environmental/respect issues) – obviously will spend some time in Sydney but we tend not to spend a lot of time in big cities (Rome didn’t count – the historic centre is really a little town!) And in Cambodia we want to visit Angkor Watt, which fits nicely with our interest in ancient civilizations.

Interested in opinions – do you think our interests are severely out of line with the proposed destinations?

Thanks for your help!

Liz

Elizabeth_S

Oops - two things

1) Machu Picchu! typo!
2) I'm sure we'll be very interested in the history of the Maori and Australian Aboriginals - although alot of the sights sound kitschy-touristy....is that correct?

oliverandharry

Dear Elizabeth,
Despite three trips to Australia, I cannot qualify as any sort of expert here, but can offer you some perspective. I have previously read your blogs, particularly on the Galapagos and in Italy with great interest, as you have stayed on 'land' in the former and we would not like to be trapped too long on one of the boats with people we didn't care for. But that aside....on our first trip to NZ, with a side trip to Tassie, we were disappointed over how it 'looked'. I expected it to look like England, and other than Christchurch, it does not. We drove significant distances through small towns in NZ that looked to us like 1950s Indiana. This is not bad - obviously, and the people we met and places we went were wonderful, but if you are expecting OLD, and the architectural detail that implies, you will be disappointed. We saw wonderful Maori museums, etc. on the north island and in Rotorua, and there is a superb exhibition of Aboriginal history and artifacts in the Tasmanian museum in Hobart as well as brilliant works of art (current) in the Museum of New South Wales in Sydney. But this is not akin to crawling around the pyramids. What I had to get my head around was that compared to Europe, this is not an old country.
I adore Sydney, and appreciate its art, architecture and overall arts scene, but it seems more fringe, more edgy to me - more modern. It is one of my favorite cities in the world.
The NZ of the Ring films is there and your husband will love it. But I think we spend so much time in Tasmania because it is the place of the greatest history in terms of building, etc. The actual Australians who write here can help much more on real Aboriginal historic places to go - I tend to think Darwin and Van Dieman's Land more than Uluru.
Hope that's of some help to you.

Elizabeth_S

Dear Oliver and Harry:

Thank you for you reply - it's exactly the kind of insight I was hoping to hear.

I have all your trip reports printed out - they are very helpful - and I almost added to my original post that we were also considering Norfolk Island - due to your trip report!

Happy to offer any assistance with Galapagos - we loved it there and much to our surprise will go back - I say surprise because we assumed it was a once in a lifetime kind of place.

We were concerned about the cruise in Galapagos - we're incredibly independent travelers and I couldn't imagine being "trapped" on a boat for 7 days - but it did work out splendidly. I think a Galapagos cruise is quite different from a big cruise line - people have a genuine shared interest in being there. We had some fascinating conversations over meals (no set places, which we liked) and have stayed in touch with many of the people on board. The boat we were on accommodates 48 passengers and I think that's a good size - small enough to get into pretty much all harbours but big enough to have privacy and space.

Thanks again for your comments.....

Neil_Oz

I think Elizabeth's question is best answered by a non-Australian/Kiwi who's in a position to make meaningful comparisons.

Having said that, there's no doubt that you'd have to adjust your definition of "history". If antiquity is what counts, Aboriginal settlement dates back over 40,000 years, but nomadic hunter-gatherers leave few physical (although many cultural) traces behind them.

To me, modern history can be at least as interesting as ancient, and the story of how in such a short time Australia and New Zealand rose from unpromising beginnings to become prosperous, democratic states (and inter alia lead the world in political and social reform, eg female suffrage) is not without interest.

To provide an analogy: I've heard some travellers advise against visiting Shanghai, on the grounds that it has none of the antiquity of Beijing. Well, of course you wouldn't miss Beijing, but I found Shanghai just as interesting because of its unique past and the role it played, and is still playing, in the birth of modern China -the cradle of both communist revolution and capitalist excess.

So, it all comes down to taste, as always. I don't THINK you'd regret visiting NZ and Australia, but I can't know that. You wouldn't want to end up like an English visitor who reported his disappointment in Sydney because it was so "new" and lacking the ambience of Rome. (Well, DUH!)

lizF

I hope you didn't use Machu Piccu as an ancient civilization as the Incas were only a very recent civilization. However it is very interesting and in the five trips that I have done to South America I always managed to go to Peru each time as the culture to me, although not ancient, is interesting.
If you want ancient then the Aboriginies of Australia are one of the oldest civilizations in the world as is this continent of ours.
Sure Europe has history and ancient architechure but theirs does not compare with that of the Middle East for instance and looks like yesterday's antiques in comparison to me.
Art and Architecture is a personal thing, modern art can be just as interesting as ancient, again it is what you like yourself.
Wildlife: Australia has an abundance of wildlife which is easy to get to see and interact with. As for birdlife, Australia has more birdlife that is accessible to everyone than anywhere else in the World. Australia and Brazil have 2/3rd of the World's birds species.
Scenery: I love the scenery of the coral cays and the GBR and surrounds, the rainforests and the tropical wetlands. Again it depends on what you like.
When you comment on things like " we are not winery types" I get the impression that you either have not done a wide and varied type of homework or you have only centred on things that you don't want and not things that you may enjoy - what I am suggesting is that I wonder what your preconceived ideas really are. Food, markets, for out-doorsey people - do you think that we all run around hiking and running and whatever out-doorsey people do or is it the fact that we don't have to hibernate for months at a time indoors that you think we are out-doorsey types? I don't quite know what you mean there. I think that you are either reading the wrong things or reading into things what you want to and not what is intended.

ElendilPickle

From your description of your interests, I think Australia and New Zealand would be worth your time, though I haven't been to Australia yet.

You can experience Maori culture in Rotorua and on the East Cape of the North Island without succumbing to anything kitschy (avoid any Maori concert or hangi which is held at a hotel, and spend some time at Te Puia in Rotorua), and Te Papa in Wellington and the Auckland Museum both have excellent exhibits on the Maori and their way of life - including the Maori point of view.

The scenery is stunning, as I'm sure you already know.

As your husband is a Lord of the Rings fan, buy a copy of Ian Brodie's LotR Location Guide to take along. You'll be able to see many filming sites on your own, though a few are only available by using a guide.

We're not super-fit outdoorsy types either, but we enjoyed the short walks we took in Tongariro and Egmont National Parks, and cave tubing (by no means an extreme sport) in Waitomo was pretty incredible.

Lee Ann

SnRSeattle

Hey, Elizabeth, I can only speak as an American art history major from Seattle who visited Australia, but we really loved our 3 1/2 weeks, and we like many of the things you said in your post. The Aboriginal art is facinating and their history has so many layers of mystery, we can only peek at a bit, and it is as exciting to learn about it as viewing prehistoric cave art in Europe. The food in Australia (in nice restaurants) is fresh, well-presented and delicious. The art galleries and natural history museum in Sydney are great, and the GBR makes the whole trip just outstanding. We tried to do a mix of activities concentrating on the scenery and wildlife, and met many lovely people along the way. That being said, I can relate to you saying you are having trouble wrapping your head around going to NZ--everything I have heard about the country sounds so great, but somehow leaves me unmoved. If you still feel the same way about Oz/NZ after all your research, well, maybe it itsn't the place you are meant to go to next. I think that if one feels excited to learn and experience the place(s) you travel to, you will have a great adventure. If you feel just ho-hum, that's the kind of trip you'll have. Either find something about Oz and NZ that resonates in your gut, or save them until you are ready. A picture, a TV show, a casual acquaintance--something will jog you and you will be turned on to the idea of going (at least that is what I am hoping will happen to me about NZ!!) Until then, get the book Heaven on Earth: 100 Places to See In Your Lifetime (Time Life Inc.) and maybe you'll get excited about your next trip!
Sally

lizF

Very well put Sally - much better than my attempt. I did not mean to downplay NZ when I made my reply though but as you both come from an area that in my mind is like NZ I can see how you would not get all warm and fuzzy about it. It is a bit like my feelings about places that I have been and raved about for years until I go somewhere new and see the "more of that" or "larger of this" and I change my views. My dream when I was little was to go to Thailand before anywhere else and for me then it did not let me down but my yearnings take me elsewhere nowadays as my ideas have changed and my appetite has been fetted for those things I wanted then. I used to wax lyrical about the Columbian Icefields Highway in the Rockies till I went to Alaska, then it was Alaska that held my wonder and awe until I went to the Patagonian Ice cap and areas through and around there that now that area has taken precedence in my mind. I am running out of countries now but although the splender of those areas mentioned above still will provide awe and wonder, as they did for me, to many people for aeons to come I still gasp at the beauty of the first call of a kookaburra in the morning, the whip birds through the forests, the beauty of the marine nature in the GBR playgrounds and the isolation in some of our World Heritage areas which are so diverse. For me the heritage that we have in Nature, the art that we have in our unique environment, the wildlife and the accompanying scenery that we take for granted but which surrounds us and is different from the norm is a gift that we take for granted until we do not have it available at the drop of a hat and it is not with us. For me, flying into Sydney in the early morning from overseas, looking down at the beautiful harbour, the surrounding hills, the reflections, the blue ocean and knowing that I will finally be amongst those things that I treasure so much is my idea of heaven. Man made structures or artifacts, however old, will not do the same thing for me.
You must go where you feel you will get that buzz from travelling. Australia and NZ may not do it for you but I am sure there are few Australians who do not know what I am talking about and who do not share that same feeling when returning to this country of ours.

fuzzylogic

Very well said Sally and LizF.

To Elizabeth_S

Ancient Civilisations - more to them than just buildings, and as has been pointed out already the Aboriginal peoples of this land have been here for a long time. Not sure about the "sights" - like I said it's not physical evidence we are talking about -but stories, and tradition, and knowledge of the land. Try a short walking tour anywhere with a guide who can explain the uses of the various plants.

Art & Architecture - National Galleries of VIC, NSW, SA - all brilliant - and with free guided tours that are especially good about Australian Art (which was a whole new world to me). Superb free exhibitions at the State Library of NSW - the Museum of Sydney is good too. And - dare I say it - the SOH is sublime. Go and take a close look as the sun sets. And go to a performance there.

Wildlife - look up kangaroos (ha ha). But then you can see cockatoos, and kookaburras, and rainbow loriqueets, etc in inner suburban Sydney.

Landscape !!!! You cannot be serious.
Just go to the Blue Mountains two hours from Sydney and marvel. Take a ferry ride on the harbour. Check out the Kakadu wetlands.

Look - Austalia is a whole new world - the flora, the fauna, the history - pre and post European settlement. Read the stories of the early settlers; read the stories of the explorers; check out the inner cityscapes in Sydney - I'd like to bet there are more 19th century domestic dwellings here than there are in London (and certainly than there are in Toronto).

Oh - and don't worry about restaurants - - the cities of Australia are a food lovers' paradise from cheap and cheerful to lux. And don't worry about markets either.

I'm not sure why I am waxing so lyrical. The possibilities here are enormous, but you do sort of sound like the sort of people who don't know a good thing when you see it.

If you are not excited by the idea - then go somewhere else.

wilees

Well I would "group" South Island NZ with the Rockies in Canada, parts of Switzerland and Norway.

Some of NZ history is interesting but Ancient Greece it ain't.

I always say if you are a city person skip NZ. NZ is about the outdoors BUT that don't mean you have to go tramping or bungy jumping.

On my honey moon we started in ChCH drove the spectacular SH8 ended up in Queentown - spent a day at Milford (brilliant) and 2 in Queenstown. We only did one proper walk (45mins).

You can get great food and wine in NZ and awesome scenery.

I still highly recommend NZ though (it was my home). Start with Auckland, down to Rotorua for all the geothermal stuff. Lots to see and do here.

Napier is my home town - I love it. But this region is about relaxing, sun, wine, jazz and architecture. And the earthquake history.

NZ is mecca for those interested in Geology and other sciency things.

Wellington is a city (again one I love but not all that much there for tourists).

South Island is where it is at.

I hope you go. I can see how it is difficult to "plan" without the history aspect (I have travelled most of Europe and it is all about the history). It is easy to say I want to visit said castle. More difficult to pencil in viewing a mountain range.

DownUnder

Funny, I am an Australian and I have absolutely no desire to visit Canada. I know the Rockies must be great, but I have seen snow capped mountains in NZ and Europe, all Canadians I have met have been friendly and have a great affinity with Australians, but I have no desire to visit their cities. In a different sort of way I guess the Canadian touring experience is similar to the Australian touring experience. No medieval Castles, Cathederals or Palaces, but lots of wonderful scenery and fascinating flora and fauna.
I travel to Europe as much as possible and that's where my inrterests lie.

lizF

There you are Elizabeth S - different strokes for different folks as DownUnder has shown, D U loves Europe whereupon I would prefer to sit on a mountain in the Rockies looking at a lake, feeding and watching the birds and the gophers, looking at the wonderful monuments and architechure that the Beavers have made and hoping to catch a glimpse of the art of the Northern Lights than seeing a man made structure any day. So it really is up to what you want to see but I will say this, if I had only one more trip I could do and really was inspired by ancient civilizations then I would return to Petra in Jordon as that place just blew me away.

mlgb

Hi Wilees, don't sell your wonderful city of Wellington short. The Te Papa museum, cafe culture, new architecture, botanic gardens, and port for the crossing to South Island are reasons for tourists to visit.

NZ is a great location for foodies, there could not be fresher seafood, lamb, grass-fed beef, and produce. And cooking is no longer English-style meat and two veg and brown gravy on top of everything.

Scenery along the west coast of the SI can be seen with minimal hiking efforts, the glaciers and Milford sound are dramatic. On the North Island, the geothermal sights and surprisingly deserted beaches (the advantage of colder water is that they have not been turned into Surfer's "Paradise.&quot Wildlife around Dunedin (rarest penguins in the world and albatrosses that nest on land) and Kaikoura (sperm whales). Plus those crazey keas.

I found the history of NZ settlers interesting as it parallel's California (and probably some of Canada's history) and it was the last major bit of land settled by humans. Being of the British Musuem-loving heritage many of the smaller cities have wonderful museums, I especially liked the Canterbury Museum in Christchurch and the museum in Invercargill (where else can you see a living dinosaur). And just by chance I met a nephew of the tuatarium curator who told me about how his uncle solved the problem of the newborns not thriving. Which brings me to the best part about NZ, the hospitality and friendliness of the locals.

So I would not skip NZ, but if you are not sure, take three weeks and you won't be sorry.

And I'm not a Kiwi.

But I also can't get my head around visiting Australia, sorry. While no one I know has every said they didn't want to go back to NZ, no one has ever said they wanted to return to Australia.

lizF

I could name a very high % of people on this forum alone who would wish to return to Australia Mlgb, and who indeed do return to Australia. I do think that if you have not been to a place comments like yours are not very helpful to anyone particularly as Tasmania is in the top 10 best islands to visit in the World and Sydney has topped the preferred and best cities to visit in the world on more than one occasion. But ignorance is bliss so they say!

lancefan

As an aussie that's been to nz, i for one can say I would want to return to australia (no that I don't like nz, it's a great place, but the weather!!)
perhaps there's also something to be said by the approx 450,000 kiwis that live in australia?

seriously though, there is both ancient civilization and history in australia - it's not the build massive buildings kind of civilization though and you generally have to travel a reasonable distance to see it. But, if you're into art, then surely the amount of aboriginal rock art that exists that tells the stories of the time is worth something.

As for art and architecture, a country that was settled by the brits in 1788 is obviously not going to compare to european cities like rome. but I think that's part of the great thing and charm about australia

Neil_Oz

I can imagine people putting other countries before Australia as a preferred travel destination for all sorts of good reasons, but I agree that mlgb's comment was at best uninformed and unhelpful. There might just be a reason why the 2004 Conde Nast survey rated Australia as world No 1 destination and Sydney as No 2 city. Of course every survey throws up different results, but there is a certain consistency to Australia's (and in fairness New Zealand's) high ratings in recent years.

There is little point, to put it mildly, in offering travel advice about a country one has not visited and has no wish to visit. In the United States I found more awareness of and interest in Australia than I expected, but often based on half-digested scraps of information gleaned from questionable sources. Perhaps mlgb also has fallen prey to these misconceptions. Either way, it's best to stick to what you know.

The reality is that the two countries have some quite striking differences - chiefly the landform, wildlife and their native peoples - but a great deal in common also, including a high standard of unforced hospitality and courtesy to visitors.

pat_woolford

No-one has ever said they want to return to Australia?? Just on this thread alone look at Sally from Seattle's post. Here in 2004, coming back this year.

Apart from the fact that nearly half a million Kiwis choose live in Australia, and that's a fair percentage out of a population of only about 4million, there's so many Kiwis living permanently in Cairns alone, that Waitangi Day is celebrated here. A NZ Prime Minister, when once questioned about the high emigration rate from NZ to Oz, famously stated that it should improve the general IQ of both countries. Have worked in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch and holidayed in NZ over the years for a total of about 9 months, of course its a highly scenic country, but too cold for me.

mlgb, Surfer's Paradise is not a typical Australian beach these days, there's tens of thousands of other beaches around the country to choose from. Suggest you come and have a look.

Melnq8

Well, I've visited Australia some six times now (four times in the past two years alone), and I STILL want to go back! I've also visited NZ six times, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to go back there either, but I still have alot of ground to cover in Australia (which has much better food than NZ in my experience).

I can't offer much help to Elizabeth though, as I'm one of those outdoorsy types with very little interest in ancient civilizations and buildings. My idea of nirvana is wide open spaces, fascinating wildlife, beautiful scenery and lots of walking opportunities. Oh yeah, let's not forget the wine!

If Australia and NZ aren't speaking to you, well, perhaps they're just not your cup of tea. But then again, you'll never know for sure until you go.

Elizabeth_S

Thanks for the many helpful replies - in retrospect I think that writing this post and the subsequent responses has further crystallized my thoughts. I think my ambivalence is more towards NZ - there are many things we want to see and do in Australia - including Tasmania, as I had earlier posted - so LizF and fuzzylogic - I'm not a complete cretin

mlgb's suggestion of 3 weeks in NZ is where I'm going to start on my planning - we had assumed we would be longer in NZ but I'll pare it back, add to Australia and then try to figure out how we can squeeze Cambodia, Bangkok and Hong Kong in as the Asia list seems to be growing daily.

Thanks again for the thoughtful replies.