Climb Uluru (Ayers Rock)?

I climbed it back in 1992. We had to sign up for a tour, and we were bused out to the rock. They made us start at 7:00 a.m. to avoid the daytime heat. It was July and freezing at the top. My ears were numb. Climbing the rock took 45 minutes and they had a book at the top that we could sign are name on. Well, that was a few years ago. The rock is steep but there is good traction

BTW, there isn't a lot to do in Uluru but swat flies and climb the rock.

I am friends with an Australian family of Aboriginal descent and would not climb the rock.

KEITH: by all means climb the rock! it is a great climb and a wonderful view. It is indeed sacred to the Aboriginals, but only mild "pressure" will be put on you not to climb. It is not considered "bad luck" to climb it either. If you do chose to climb you will not be alone! Hundreds of tourists, but only a few in their 50s & 60's can do it .I hope you are in good shape or in your 20's/30's, climb slow and deliberate, do not wander off the marked path, bring water, and a hat that will not blow off.

I respect the Aboriginal ownership of the land and wish them no disrespect, and I will be eternally grateful that they allowed me to climb Uluru a few years back; but without the Choice to climb the rock it just isn't worth the trip all the way to the center of Australia.

I don't think you will experience any guilt after you pay the fee to enter the Uluru- Kata Tjuta National Park; just hope for good weather.

Kaith (and tampatramp), I'm not getting something here. You understand that Uluru has religious significance for the local people and that they don't like people walking on it. But if they don't lay undue "pressure" on you, you'll do it anyway in the full knowledge that you're giving offense to your hosts.

Would you march into a Buddhist temple in shorts and hiking boots because the monks hadn't pressured you not to? Would you walk up to the altar rail in an English cathedral to take a flash photo of the communicants because the vergers hadn't asked you not to?

If you wouldn't, you must have constructed some sort of cultural hierarchy in which the sensitivities of indigenous Australians are unimportant in the scheme of things. If this isn't racism I don't know what is.

I am totally with Neil on this one. The Anangu owners are deeply disturbed by climbers desecrating their most sacred sites, but it does not appear to be in their nature to act on this by prohibiting climbing. I am also under the impression that this was part of the deal when the government agreed to return ownership of Uluru - that climbing would still be permitted.

There will be no undue pressure put on you to climb - just a sign asking you not to. Still, I would ask any prospective climber to reconsider their position. There are lots of things in this world that are just plain wrong to do, but nobody will stop you if you insist. Please go to the Uluru - Kata Tjuta Cultural Centre to learn a little bit more about this issue, and consider taking a guided walk around the base. There is an Anangu-guided walk, called the Mutijulu Walk, where your guide will describe in some detail the sacredness of specific locations.

I too would love to climb Uluru, but I gave up on that dream after learning a little more. I hope you do to. Instead, take a hike in Kata Tjuta, such as the spectacular Valley of the Winds trail. If you still want to do some climbing, consider driving over to Watarrka National Park, and climb King's Canyon. It is a great view, particularly at sunrise.

The worst part is that the Anangu feel responsible for all the climbers who injure (or kill) themselves while climbing Uluru. One individual summed it up best for me - he said that it would be like allowing guests into your home, but most of the electrical wiring is uninsulated and exposed. Imagine how you would feel if one of your guests was electrocuted after you fully knew the risks the guest was taking in your home.

I was at Uluru two years ago and people were climbing the rock and there was no one at the botom to discourage anyone from climbing. We decided not to climb. There is a chain part way up to give you support on the steepest part of the climb. The first 150 feet or so looked steep and nothing to hang on to, but can be climbed with care. It's a doable climb but you have to be careful. On the second day we went out to the rock and we hand a small thunder shower. Some people on the rock did not come down as soon as they saw the storm coming. The wind was strong and was driving the rain almost horisontally. One person with his child had to be rescued by a rescue team with ropes. He slipped and almost fell off the rock twice. It was an agonizing hour to watch the strugle to bring him down with the child. If you decide to climb watch the weather.

Climbing the rock is NOT the only thing to do in the area. I actually prefer Kata Juta (The Olgas) and there is Kings Canyon etc. The Rock is spectacular from ground level and there is an excellent organised walk around the Rock. No-one will put pressure on you not to climb but it is a sacred place to the traditional owners and I would like you to consider respecting that. Cheers!

We visited Uluru Sept 04, and didn't even consider climbing the rock due to the wishes of the Aborigine. Instead, we signed up through our hotel for a guided sunrise trip with a naturalist. She had a small van, only about 8 people. We were picked up before dawn, saw the sunrise on the rock, then she took us to many places around the base. She filled us in on lots of native lore as well as flora and fauna of the area, which we would not have been privy to had we gone out on our own. Felt we saw the rock and learned some nature, very important to us.

Neil_Oz (& ALF), I'm not sure what you don't get, I understand the religious significance, yet they still don't prohibit climbing. I obey the signs, I remove my boots at Budist temples, remove or put on a hat at other temples and observe the signs regarding photos, even buying a camera "permit" when required. I did visit the Cultural Center when I was at Uluru - a great place to visit and learn.

It is my understanding that the Anangu owners can, and one day might, ban climbing. And until they do it will remain a place on my recommended places for friends to visit; and to climb it if they are physically able. I know the Aboriginal people realize that other cultures (mine in particular) find climbing structures culturally significant and is an important part of tourism. I think that they are smart enough to realize that without the option to climb , Uluru might not be a prime tourist destination.

As for the safety involved, there were no problems for the approximateley hundred tourists when I was there. Common sense is certainly important. And when guests come into my house with all my exposed wiring...wait a minute! I don't charge guests to come into my house.

So Keith, I say climb the rock; or as wally says: "there isn't a lot to do in Uluru but swat flies and climb the rock."

Culture aside, Uluru is after all just a rock, and existed long before the Anangu people (not Mr. Ayers) discovered it. And long, long before any humans existed.

And BTW Neil, I have fought racism all my life, even going to jail, so my guess is you Don't know what racism is. I think your comment is way out of line. But I mean no offense to you personally as you have been very helpful to me planning my trip later this month.

My wife and I climbed Uluru in 1991. At that time, we were not even aware that the Anangu did not want people to climb. I cannot recall ever hearing about it. Knowing what I know now, I will respect their wishes and not climb (I will be back there this August for the first time in 15 years). The climb itself can be somewhat treacherous. Once you get to the top, you have to climb your way in and out of a series of crevices before you can get to the flat top where the signing book is. Coming down was so steep that we sat down and semi-slid our way down (we did a number on our jeans). It was an experience, but not one to be taken lightly just from the perspective of the climb itself. By the way, I am afraid of open heights and if you have anything like that, it can be scary at parts.

tampatramp, I guess they were fightin' words, but short of being mealy-mouthed I could only call it the way I saw it. My point stands: I still can't see why doing something which as we all seem to agree causes offense, possibly even distress, because it's not actually banned, is morally OK. Still less because the custodians may be torn between an economic imperative and permitting something that violates their ancient and complex relation to the physical world. What are we saying here - "if it feels good, do it?"

Speaking for myself only, I don't feel much cultural significance in climbing over things, certainly not equal to the local people's preference for us to desist.

Having said all that, if you've been jailed for fighting racism my hat goes off to you.

Just got back from Ayers Rock (Uluru ) 2 days ago.

Personally I would not climb the rock.

No pressure was put on me to climb or not to climb but just the fact that the Aborigine would prefer that you do not is good enough for me.

I would purchase a head net cost is about $6.50 because the flies will drive you crazy.

After you have seen the Rock , visited the Olga's.... took all your pictures...then there is no much else to do ...so move on to another place...we flew to Cairns to do the Great Barrier Reef.

Percy

As a retired clinical psychologist, please allow me to weigh in on the guilt issue. The very fact that you have raised it here, suggests the possibility of conflicted feelings in the future. I would encourage you to tune into the rational side of your brain and "do the right thing". I am sure you can determine what course of action that would be.

Another issue that may be understated is the inherent danger of attempting the climb. When we were there last year, I believe we we told that 35+ people had died, over the years, trying to make the climb.

Orlando_Vic, please be clear I never raised the guilt issue, nor have I nor any one I know who has climbed the rock, experienced any guilt. The rational side of my brain does indeed say to do the right thing and that is to climb the rock, visit and learn at the cultural center and support the Aboriginal "economic imperative" and encourage tourism.

The real issue that is understated, is to give credit to the Anangu who explained to me that they do not wish me or any othe climbers any ill will and that Uluru, while sacred and shouldn't be climbed, is not bad luck to climb. They were very nice and understanding.

As for the safety of climbing, all outdoor activities are dangerous. We were told 1 or 2 or a few people die each year climbing Uluru either because they deviate off the marked path (usually to catch their hat that blew off) or suffered a heart attack by not being in shape or trying to keep up with the younger climbers. It is not a dangerous climb in and of itself, and so I told my daughter (who is not in great shape, but young) to climb it, and she enjoyed it greatly. So I tell everyone it is a great climb, not to be missed-weather permitting.

What is dangerous, if you do live in Orlando, is to visit the beaches near Tampa. There have been at least 35 people killed crossing the street to or from the beach in the last 6 years I have lived in this tourist town.

I hope to climb Uluru again one day; but my trip later this month to Darwin takes me (with the special permission of the local people) to the Aboriginal Arnhem land. I am happy to spend my tourist dollars there as I was at Uluru.

Orlando_Vic, thanks for giving us a professional perspective on the guilt issue. This puzzled me, as the poster seemed to be linking the likely severity of guilt to the public disapproval he fears. I may have misinterpreted him, of course, in which case I apologise, but whenever I've felt guilty about something, it hasn't seemed to matter whether my transgression was on public display (in which case embarrassment was the more likely emotion) or known only to me.

It would not surprise me to learn that most climbers do not suffer any pangs of guilt. Those who might feel guilty are probably the ones who elect not to climb in the first place.

Against the public wishes of the Anangu, I climbed Uluru. I'm sorry but wild horses couldn't have kept me from doing it as long as it was legal and safe to do so. It is an awesome natural spectacle. I also did the walk around Uluru, part of it listening in on an Aboriginal guide. Wonderful.

I believe what the Anangu find most irritating is not climbing the rock itself but the attitude of many of the visitors that do so (and even some of those who don't): considering the rock as a trophy, a "been there done that", a photo op, a quick stopover on a busy itinerary.

Why climb it, when the top is only place in the area where you can't see it?

The people who live there don't want you to climb it. They feel like you're walking on THEM when you climb it. So don't climb it.

Walk around it.

fnarf999, you just don't get it. The rule is this: "I've spent a lot of money to get here - if I feel like doing it, I will, irrespective of the locals' attitude." Like I said - "if it feels good, do it".

BTW, as nothing has been heard of him lately it looks like the OP (KE1TH) is a troll. But it's been an intesresting discussion anyway.

Neil; fnarf: you both get it: The people who live there don't want us jetting in and out for a quick sunset photo either. You are selective in your political correctness.

Not necessarily....I meant to say you are selective in your politically correct indignation with those who do the climb as opposed to the "been there done that" set.

Anyone with a smidgin of knowledge about Aboriginal people would know that it is not in their nature, nor their culture, to come out with a direct "no". Hence the seemingly evasive answers quoted above from local Aborigines. They are trying to politely ask tourists not to clamber over a sacred site. How simple is that.

Neil_Oz, you offend me. If you cannot answer a question nicely, or at least without calling names, then I'd prefer you not answer my question at all.

I asked a simple question. All the "travel brochure programs" that focus on Australia that I've watched on the Travel Channel etc all say that the Aboriginal people prefer you not climb the rock, then proceed to show you footage of climbing the rock.... so you get a mixed message.

Just like I'm getting here....

So, not only did I get mixed messages, I get insulted. I asked the question on Friday..... I didn't even turn on my computer over the weekend..... it's Monday morning now and I look up this thread to find out what valuable information I might have been told and find out that you think I'm a troll....

I guess that adage that Aussies are a nice bunch doesn't apply to you.

fnarf999, actually from the top of the rock it is the best place to see how large and flat Uluru really is.

And I didn't walk on anybody to get there; I only walked on the rock.

KE1TH, I hope that I answered your question. Wrong as he is on this issue, Neil_Oz, is probably a nice guy too. He does spend a lot of time helping people plan their trips, providing some very good advice. Of course he should have realized not everyone is on their computer every day all day long; but I think you took too much offence at the word "troll". My understanding is it is a computer term for someone who just hops in on a discussion and leaves, and not an evil creature.

So enjoy your trip to Oz. It is true that "Aussies are a nice bunch ". And, IMHO, climbing Uluru will be fantastic experience that you will remember forever!

You won't be the only one climbing the rock.

From the Australian Government Department of the Environment and Heritage Web site (http://www.deh.gov.au/parks/uluru/no-climb.html):

Please Don't Climb Uluru
Nganana Tatintja Wiya - 'We Never Climb'

The Uluru climb is the traditional route taken by ancestral Mala men upon their arrival to Uluru. Anangu do not climb Uluru because of its great spiritual significance.

Anangu have not closed the climb. They prefer that you - out of education and understanding - choose to respect their law and culture by not climbing. Remember that you are a guest on Anangu land.

Also, Anangu traditionally have a duty to safeguard visitors to their land. They feel great sadness when a person dies or is hurt.

Please read our safety page to find out what precautions you need to take when visiting Uluru - Kata Tjuta National Park.

If you visit the Cultural Centre you will learn more about the significance of Uluru in Anangu law and culture. Please do this before you decide whether to climb. There are many other activities and walks available in the park.

Please also note that the climb will be closed when weather conditions are predicted to exceed certain safety thresholds (temperature, rain, cloud, wind etc.).

Other Uluru Climbing Links:

http://www.crystalinks.com/ayersrock.html
"Climbing Uluru - The local indigenous community request that visitors respect the sacred status of Uluru by not climbing the rock, with signs posted to this effect. In 1983 the former Prime Minister of Australia, Bob Hawke, promised to respect the request from the community that climbing Uluru be prohibited, but broke his promise when title was handed to the traditional owners in 1985 because access for tourists to climb Uluru was made a condition before they could receive the title. The climb crosses an important dreaming track, which has been a cause of sadness and distress among traditional owners. Neverthless, they are unable to prohibit climbing, and climbing Uluru is a popular attraction for a large fraction of the many tourists who visit it each year."

http://www.sacredland.org/world_sites_pages/Uluru.html
"A major challenge is that of discouraging visitors from climbing Uluru. To Anangu, climbing Uluru is a violation of tjukurpa. (The route of the Uluru climb is the traditional trail taken by ancestral Mala men upon their arrival to Uluru.) Climbing the rock is also dangerous: heat and winds pose a significant threat, and at least 37 people have died while making the climb since tourism has operated in the park. For these reasons, Anangu request that visitors do not climb the rock, there is no official records kept but it is estimated that nearly half of all visitors choose to climb, and visitor surveys indicate that the challenge of getting to the top pulls people like a magnet. Although Anangu tolerate climbing on Uluru, it is clear that commercial pressures have kept the rock open. In 2001, after the death of an elder, Anangu closed the path for a 10-day mourning period, which elicited protests from some government officials and members of the region’s tourist industry. Many feared that the temporary closure might lead to a permanent ban, but to date, no such plan is in place.”


http://www.lonelyplanet.com/columns/traveller_archive/22may01/traveller_index.htm
"There is still considerable confusion among non-Aboriginals about this issue. Before I left Melbourne, I asked two dozen people if I should climb or not, and about half of them said that as long as I didn't get injured on the path, it would be OK to make the climb.
Clearly, this is not what the words in the pamphlet imply. The pain just beneath the surface of those words is palpable. Basically, it seems to me, the Aboriginals want to say, 'This is a sacred site and you can't climb it,' but instead they have reached a compromise with the government that maintains a chain-path ascending the rock and permits visitors to make the climb along that chain. (While the Aboriginals own the land, they lease it to the government for tourism use.) You can imagine the economics and politics of persuasion that underlie this compromise.
But when I made my way out to the rock on Tuesday, the climbing entrance area was cordoned off and the chain-path was closed - clearly, strictly, no exceptions allowed. Signs stated that due to the death of the elder, climbing was not being permitted at this time. A park ranger explained that the elder had been a member of the Mala tribe that was traditionally responsible for the ancient path the climbing route follows, and that the path was closed as part of the practices associated with the period of mourning.
Most of the visitors around me seemed to accept this, but a few were outraged. 'What the bloody hell is this all about?' one Aussie said to me. 'I'm just gonna go tomorrow and bolt up the hill, mate - what can they do?'
And I overheard a Brit turn to his group and mutter, 'We've come all the way around the world for this?'
Over the next few days news reports said that tourists had begun to complain about the closure of the climb and to agitate for it to be opened again.
Part of me could understand the disappointment and even the outrage of people who had traveled for days to make what seemed to them a kind of pilgrimage. For some, this may have been a once-in-a-lifetime trip. They had saved and planned and looked forward to it for months, maybe even years. And if climbing Uluru was supposed to be the climax of that trip, well, being forbidden to make the climb would be profoundly upsetting.
Part of me was disappointed as well. Part of me had been looking forward to the challenge of the climb, and to the view of the Outback spreading away sere and red to the horizon, and especially to the sense of oneness that I thought I would feel with the rock as I pulled myself up its flank.
But the more I thought about it, the more I felt uniquely privileged to be denied the possibility of making the climb. This very denial affirmed that the ancient rites and beliefs still abide, that they are as valid and vital today as they have been for centuries. After all, it is these rites and beliefs that comprise the spiritual foundation of Uluru. In honoring them, we honor and sustain the sanctity of the site.
And in doing that, I realized, we honor and sustain some fundamental human impulse that extends far beyond that one red rock monolith in the heart of Australia. By not climbing Uluru, by not being allowed to climb Uluru, I was paying homage to an ancient spirit - call it awe, call it worship, call it faith in something that, unknowable, gives shape and sense to life - that infuses and connects all the peoples of the world.
The death of that cherished elder - and the rites and restraints attending his death - taught me something irreplaceable about life.
As it turned out, I'll never forget the view from the base of Uluru."

Sorry, KE1TH. You're right, I'm actually a proper bastard, and to make matters worse, sometimes my troll radar develops a fault. But thanks, tampatramp, for giving me the benefit of the doubt - that's true Southern politeness.

I do note that several of the nice people on this forum, as well as the resident bastard, are also finding it hard to follow the argument that it's OK to climb the rock.

I'm a little tired of people using the threadbare term "political correctness" to describe any opinion that the writer disapproves of, usually for want of an effective counter-argument. I think that's what's known as the ad hominem approach to debate.

I'm not sure that this is a question of one side being right and the other wrong, just one of good manners. Surely the issue is straightforward enough if we apply the "do as you would be done by" rule.

I notice that Ralph has brought up the term " political correctness". Now let me inform the people reading this post that it was the USA who brought in the concept of political correctness and in fact still tend to abide by those ideas. Australians are not like Americans, I doubt that any of us follow the ideas of political correctness one little bit. Why should we, we have minds of our own and can make our own decisions about issues without the help of politicians. Having said that I cannot understand why anyone goes to Ayers Rock myself when there is a far better one in Western Australia, far bigger and in much more magnificent surroundings. I feel that the cost of going to Ayers Rock is too much to see too little when there are many more magnificent areas which are not frequented by tourists.
The issue of whether to climb the rock or not is, and should be, your own. You know that it does not make the local Aboriginal owners happy but if you can live with the fact that you are headstrong and insensitive then go ahead. Try climbing the Opera House too while you are in Sydney as the view is wonderful from there too but don't be surprised if the white Australians are more offended and proactive to that sort of disrespect than the elders of Uluru.

If it was safe and legal to climb the Opera House, I'd do that too, just as I did Uluru, the Harbour Bridge, Mt Beerwah, Mt Barney, Pigeon House and dozens of others. I'm sure they're all sacred to somebody, or at least they were.

"...the Canadian Oxford Dictionary ... defines political correctness as 'the avoidance of forms of expression or action that exclude, marginalize, or insult certain racial or cultural groups'...

"Liberal and progressive commentators ... argue that the term ... was hijacked by (US) conservatives around 1980 and redefined as a way to reframe the political scene ... and that many who use the term are attempting to distract attention from substantive debates over discrimination and unequal treatment based on race, class, and gender.."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

Neil: I meant "political correctness" in the pure sense as defined by the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. It is a good thing and it has made some of the world a better place. I don't fault you for being that way. Some of us, myself included, just aren't that good at it sometimes.

No worries, Ralph. I've been called worse (like "chardonnay-sipping leftie", which as a red drinker I really resent).

Neil, I just want to clarify : are you a proper bastard or a literal bastard? Before I hand you the keys to my apartment, I should know just what kind of a bastard I'm entertaining, eh

AndrewDavid

A/D, I can be flexible - what sort of bastard would you prefer to entertain? (When I took up family history I discovered only one literal bastard, my grandfather, but judging by the marriage and birth records there were quite a few close calls.)

>>Before I hand you the keys to my apartment, I should know just what kind of a bastard I'm entertaining, eh<<

I'm glad to see you're becoming fluent in Canadian.

Lee Ann

Lee Ann, not only fluent in Canadian but North Queenslandese.

LeeAnn. I'm better in printed word than spoken word. In speech I often have the inflection wrong.

Neil I thought all the records had been destroyed to protect the reputations of your children

cheers, A/D

Resurrecting an old but important topic. As if climbing the rock was bad enough, take a look at this: http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/06/28/159461_ntnews.html

_______________________________________________
Vic's travels: http://my.flightmemory.com/vogilvie

Not rocket science here...Sorry, it just comes down to one word RESPECT
IT is something I would not consider if there was gold at the top. They are courteous to us as visitors, it is simple.

Clearly, she hasn't the wit or wisdom to "understand what the fuss is about", Vic. Pity she didn't slip off it!

Hi All,

WOW...hot topic huh?

As someone who books these tours for clients (yes, I'm probably going to burn in hell and the PC Police will no doubt lock me up for all of eternity...) I thought I'd throw in my $.02.

Part of my job is to educate my clients about Australia
(no mean feat, let me tell ya!).

American tourists (I'm only speaking on what I know, but I suspect tourists from other countries are in the same boat) are totally brainwashed because every single tour operator, brochure, etc., tells them that going to Ayers Rock and climbing it are one of the MUST Do things.

We all know this all the same when visiting all sorts of other places in the world - what kind of stupid tourist would you be to say that you'd been to Venice and never had a gondola ride or travelled to San Francisco without seeing the Golden Gate Bridge?

You really can't fault people for wanting to do it when it's in every single damn brochure they see! This is where education comes in. In the 15 years I've been sending clients to Australia not ONE has had the slightest clue that this could be offending anyone.

Once I explain it to people, they "get it". I suggest that they tour with Anangu Tours, my preferred touring company for Ayers Rock. This is an Aborginal owned company and they do not offer anything involving climbing Ayers Rock.
www.ananguwaai.com.au/anangu_tours

They have the courage of their convictions and stay fast to their beliefs and I respect and support them for that, because they know they could get more business by offering a climb but choose not to.

So then, I ask my clients, what is the reason they want to travel to Uluru? Isn't the true purpose to learn about the oldest culture on earth, to see the rock paintings and have a guide who comes FROM this culture? (as opposed to some guy hired to rattle off commentary on a 50 passsenger motorcoach? Or is it to simply climb a big rock because some travel brochure has told them it's a "must do"?

Most of them listen to me - some do not and yes, I've booked them into tours involving climbing (hence the burning in hell part). All I can do is try to explain it and if they still choose to do it, well then, I will assist them.

Regarding people dying from doing the climb, as several people have mentioned, it's true....although the Tourism department likes to keep that bit quiet.

About 7 years ago I sent a client there who was a doctor. When he reached the top, there was a man who was having a heart attack - he tried as best he could to help him, but it was too late. The helicopter dispatched hadn't even taken off before this poor German tourist was dead. Even worse, his wife was still climbing and they had to tell her when she reached the top.

Even weirder, both these unrelated people were scheduled to go to Cairns the next day, so my client found himself at the airport at the same time with the new widow who was trying to make arrangements to have her husband's body shipped home. To say that this experience colored my client's vacation would be an understatement. I mean, even though the guy was a doctor, he just didn't expect something like this happening on his vacation and the end of his time in Australia was not a happy one.

So Keith, you have all the information and you can make an informed decision now - I hope all the imput from the board, including that Bastard Neil, was helpful!

btw, so nice to see you again AndrewDavid! When are we going to finally meet the next time you're in the Bay Area? I can provide some sort of documentation of my parentage so you won't have to worry about someone like Neil! A simple lunch or dinner or drinks would suffice, no apartment keys necessary !

Regards,

Melodie
Certified Aussie Specialist

Thanks for your 2c worth Melodie! I'm so pleased to hear you promote Anangu tours and that you try to dissuade people from climbing. Really, I think they should just ban it.

Maybe you could get your clients to view this comedy sequence from the Chaser boys, it makes the point really well, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB_WN7dBXns

Great post Melodie.I have followed this thread for some time and now that it got brought to the top again, find it quite coincidental that I had been researching Uluru since I got back from Australia recently.I had bought a CD back with me and really got to like a particular song on it, by John Williamson, written and recorded way back in 1989
It's about our atitude, and Indigenous belief in the sacredness of Uluru.I kind of like the lyrics.May help bring this discussion into focus for some.
http://holesinmysoles.blogspot.com/2010/07/uluru-disrepect.html
And away there where the wind is blown
Never before felt so alone
More aware of skin and bone
I watch the parade of human folk
Strips of rubber,cans of Coke
Making dust and blowing smoke

Where the awe-inspiring power of time
Leaves some fearful,some sublime
White man feels his progress prime
Black man feels no urge to climb.

John Williamson , 1989 Warragul recording of Ancient Mountains.A CD I brought back from our Kimberley adventure.It's a song about the diferent atitudes Aboriginal and Europeans have to the mountains, and Uluru in particular

Thanks Susan - I'd seen that video before - those guys are absolutely hysterical! Love them! I think I'll try that the next time; I'll put the link in my "Favorite Places" and have it ready to send!

Thank you Tactile as well.

This morning I opening the morning paper (San Francisco Chronicle) and see:

"Aboriginal ownrs of Uluru (Ayers Rock) and the land around it have another reason to demand a ban on climbing the sandstone formation after a French woman stripped to her boots, bikini bottoms and cowboy hat to see the site 'in a way I'm going to remember.' The performance was caught on video by a friend. The rock is sacred territory to the Anangu people, who for years have asked tourists to admire it from a distance. Last year Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park officials recommended a climbing ban, but tour operator complained, and the rock remains open for the foreseeable future."

CLIMB THE ROCK.

The aborigines may own the land, but having leased it to US through our taxes the have no right to control our morals. If you rent a house would you like the landlord to control how you behave morally eg No single parent; No homosexuals etc.

I fully respect their moral code and are happy for them to follow it. I am not happy for them to force their code onto us.

Anyone who dismisses the climb as "only a small part" of the experience misses the importance of it to those of us that want to climb it. It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there".

I spoke to over fifty people who climbed the rock the same day I did and all had stories to tell of their dreams of climbing it and how agry it made them that the aborigines seem to close it on a whim. Many were very upset that their children and grandchildren will not be able to climb it. The friendly atmosphere on the climb is fantastic. People who would never normally speak to each other were chatting and offering help and encouragement. It was a wonderful community feel that will be lost.

I spent five hours on the rock and walked out to the far end. I spent about the same walking and driving around the base. The top of the rock is one of the most special and fascinating places in the world and I have been to 35 countries. The walk around the base is but a mere shadow of the walk at the top.

To stop the climb is insensitive and illogical but Culture and politics always are. Whose culture is more important? What compromise can/should be made?

If you respect all people. Why do you not respect those who want to climb?
ALL racism. All bigotry is UGLY.

Oh, the ignorance.

And the climb is closed for safety reasons - about 30 people have died on the rock, heart attack, heat exhaustion or falling off the thing.

The climb is not worth doing - it's not that hard. Just drag yourself up on the chain and keep walking.

So true Peter__S_Aus - I refrained from responding yesterday because it was heading towards a bit of a rant - but you've said all that needs to be said. Thanks.

And you joined just to post this, peterSale?

Doubtless, you're entitled to your opinion.

If people have no respect for the Aboriginals' sacred place, it would seem to follow that they would not object to others ignoring their wishes about anything they might hold sacred.

Perhaps nothing is sacred to these people - except fulfilling their own "dreams", wishes & desires.

I drove through Yulara a few years ago, in transit from Perth to Melbourne - I wrote a bit of a trip report about the journey, which was special in many ways. My take on climbing Ularu:

Tourists complaining that the climb up Ayers Rock has been closed. It's 36 degrees in the shade, there's no shade anyway, and it's blowing about 40 knots on top, for God's sake, and they look they have not climbed anything more challenging than a bar stool in decades. 200 pounds of the finest lard. Have they got a death wish, or what. I bet if they went to Jerusalem, they would not try free climbing on the Wailing Wall, so why can't they respect the wishes of the owners and stay off the rock. Aboriginals never, never climb. Except to haul a stretcher up the rock to retrieve people with heart failure or heat stroke.

Walking around the base of the rock, a place with a feeling of great age. Aboriginals have been here for 40,000 years, one of the worlds oldest civilisations, and have left no mark other than some cave paintings. Communities with strong oral traditions, and a story to explain the existence of almost every feature and mark on the rock. Feels like walking through Westminster Abbey, or Chartres Cathedral. Go quietly, you are walking over and through someone's history, disturbing their Dreamtime. Take care.

I was amazed at how spiritual my visit to Uluru seemed to be. I love that place.

The very shy Anangu people have never forced their moral code on anybody they only ask that you think about their wishes. They are only asking not telling. It's their sacred ground not ours and so their culture should be the one that needs to be respected here - it's nothing to do with us really and that's the way it should be IMHO.

Very well said Stormbird and excellent factual corrections.

The thing I don’t understand is the concept that once you pay money for something, then it is yours to do what you like with it. The concept that, because a lease fee is paid to the Anangu people, then they have no right to request any particular behaviour from visitors.

You can lease a church hall, and turn it into a casino. And the church will be offended.

peterSale noted that ”It is part of the Australian culture to climb such things for many reasons - tradition, family who have done it; life long desire and like Everest "because it is there". But it is not part of my culture, particularly when it would offend people.

In 1995, I was cycling around Aus, and there’s a sort of trip report for that:

Early start next morning, in the dark, to pedal to Ularu for sunrise. A traffic jam, buses, cars, Grey Nomads, camper vans, plus your solitary cyclist. Camp stools pulled out, the sun rises, Ooh, Aah. Rattle of shutters that sounded like castanets, where are the flamenco dancers, and then they mostly hurtled off. A couple of nomads lit the billy and we shared a cup of tea in the dawn chill, most peaceful.

I have to confess that I climbed Ularu, in a state of ignorance. I was unaware, then, that the traditional owners see Ularu as sacred, and that it is not respectful to climb. The climb is no big deal really, in terms of achievement. There’s a chain to haul yourself up the steepest part, and after that it’s easy. Not worth doing really. The T-shirts on sale saying “I climbed Ayers Rock” are about as significant as saying I rode a bus.

I went to the visitor centre, and learned heaps about Ularu. At that time, the visitor centre was still in a tin shed, and the new centre was under construction, near completion. By absolute chance, I ran into Greg Burgess, architect for the new centre, and he showed me around, explaining how the architecture reflects the stories, the song lines, of the Anangu, the traditional owners. He'd designed the centre by sitting on the ground for weeks with the owners, drawing patterns in the sand, talking endlessly, and the building is the result of that process. It is one of Australia's fine buildings, an inland version of the Sydney Opera House.

Ularu is to me the centre of gravity of this country. The bike trip was my first visit, and I’ve been back three times since. It's special to me, it feels good.

The visitors/cultural centre is an absolute gem isn't it, Peter_S. I've only been there once and was sorry that we didn't have more than the hour or so we did to delve further into its treasures.

At that time, the Guelph (Sp?) panorama building was still in Alice Springs (later destroyed by fire) and it was also a wonderful repository for artefacts, decorations, art and utensils from the area.

We found a lot of things on our place (Far north west NSW) - rubbing stones, boomerangs, nulla nullas, axe heads, & throwing sticks, some coolamons & stick humpees, but none of the fine head & foot decorations made of feathers that I saw up there.

Like you, Uluru has a resonance for me. So did our place. Blindfolded & driven there from any direction, I'd have known when we were on our soil.

Some people just dont feel or see it that way, I suppose. Bit like flying over the great rivers & plains of the Channel country & declaring, "There's nothing there".

When we visited Uluru the first time in 1997 we were very lucky that when we visited the Cultural Centre a member of the Anangu people - Rupert - took us on a guided tour. He struggled with English - which I thought was fantastic as it meant it wasn't his first language - and so a ranger tagged along as well to help out with the occasional translation assistance. Rupert was delightful and enlightening. I was absolutely enraptured by his stories.

When we were finally leaving the area my main thought was that we must plan to come again but next time with our friends as I was desperate to share the experience with them.

We returned with our friends in 2002 and had an absolutely wonderful trip - they too, enjoyed the area so much. Sadly, there was no guide at the cultural centre - I did enquire but was told that as much as they would love to have someone there they are just so shy it is difficult to get them to come out so to speak.

As white Australians we don't have too much in the way of Australian culture and I just feel that the Aboriginal culture desperately needs to be preserved, shared, appreciated and respected.

I was there in late June and was upset by the seemingly random closure of the climb.

I know it is closed for safety reasons as it is strenuous. But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down. It was windier on our way down than on the way up and still it was open. The concensus of those at the base waiting to climb was that reasons are arbitary.

I fully agree with some of the safety reasons and that it should be closed in extremes.

My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause.

Australia has a wonderful and diverse culture and no ONE culture should control what the others do. Women without head covering will offend certain Muslims. Should you cover your head at all times?

The debate of "us" and "them". "Their land" or "our land" will not aid in reconcilliation.

In direct answer to Keith. There is little pressure not to climb although the request is on signs and in brochures. It will be luck rather than desire as to whether you can climb the rock given the number of times they close it. When we went it had beenclosed for two weeks. Then three hours on our day. Open for two hours the next day etc.

Yes I did join to voice my opinion and the opinion of the fifty or so that I talked to on the rock. And anyone who says it is flat up there has not been there.

Try this website for some history. I have not researched the accuracy of the site.

http://outbackvoices.com/book-reviews/who-owns-ayres-rock

He wrote a book review of his own book?

Well PeterSale whether you like it or not the Aborigines do have 'their' land. Can you imagine the circus that was Ayers Rock before they took over ownership. People camping, littering the area, humanity bombarding the place.

I think that Aborigines are entitled to live their traditional life if they choose to and as such are also entitled to land to do so. They don't have much and what they have I can't imagine too many white folk wanting it anyway - considering it's remoteness.

I wouldn't put too much credence in your link - the spelling of Ayres (sic) had me suss from the start.

That’s not a book review. It is a précis of the content of the book.

peterSale, occasionally the Ularu climb is closed. It is closed by National Parks, who have control of the area, not the Aboriginal owners. It is closed for safety reasons. Sometimes the reasons will not make sense – rain is forecast, making the climb hazardous, and then the rain does not fall. High winds are forecast, and then they don’t arrive. The climb was closed for a day in April this year, out of respect for a tourist who died on the climb the day before.

The climb is about 350 metres of easy going. Don’t pretend that it is hard or some sort of achievement. It is not Mount Everest – you can climb Ularu in sandals, sans ice axe and crampons.

Look, climb the rock if that is what turns you on. You can fire off flashbulbs during a church service – nobody will prevent you. Wear a scruffy tee shirt and hiking boots in a Buddhist temple – the monks are probably too polite to prevent you doing this.


Or observe the cultural sensitivities of the people that you interact with – it will make for a richer cultural and travel experience.

"My concern is that the Aborigines do not have a good reputation in this country and closing of an icon will not help their cause."

As opposed to your "good" reputation PeterSale as exemplified by your sensitive and empathetic posts,I suppose?


Definition of "icon" (Oxford Dict) = "pertaining to the sacred". Like people to walk over a few churches with no thought would you Peter?

This is a bit funny.

Signs request that you do not climb, so if you climb, you are doing it on your own account.

But then peterSale complains that “But when it is closed no one goes and gets those who are up there to come down”.

The implication is that someone should risk their lives to tell other people that they are risking their lives.

Maybe they should not be there in the first place – and if you choose to walk up the monolith, then you can walk yourself down. Do try not to fall.

This will be my last post on this topic as I know (and knew) I will not change your minds. I just hope that I have shown you that those of us who choose to climb are as passionate as those who choose not to. I have no problem with your choice or your conscience. I did think before I climbed and made a choice that best suited my conscience. In other countries I do the same thing and make a choice usually in favour of the local culture and sometimes not. We generally stick to national parks and avoid people (that's probably obvious by now).

I could go on, as I spent nearly three hours talking to people about the climb. This included two policemen at the base of the climb who said the closing of the climb was pretty much random and a bit of a joke. They suggested getting there as soon as the Park opens to get the best chance to climb.

I will leave you with four things to ponder.

If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion.

YOUR God created Ayers Rock. Whether that God is Allah, Jehovah, Mother Nature, Geology or any of the thousands of Deities this planet has. You need to decide how best to pay homage to your God. Follow your conscience not someone else’s.

If you want to make a truly rational/objective choice look at my photographs of Ayers Rock Summit at Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/petersale1/

If you like what you see and would visit that place if it was in any other National Park in the world, then visit it. Simple. (I wish)

Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?


CHANGING THE TOPIC COMPLETELY

I joined this forum as I was linked to it from this website:- http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/climbing-ayers-rock-uluru.html


What does this website you all belong to offer? What should I be looking at? I am new to forums having only joined after visiting Ayers Rock. My wife and I travel internationally and nationally every year. We are not into tour groups or mass tourism and generally avoid people as much as possible.

Thanks for all your opinions. It has been fun. Remember, opinions are like clocks. Everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs is right.

"If you are happy for indigenous people to close sacred sites would you be equally happy with all other religions closing their churches and temples to all but those who belong to their religion."

Of course I would be equally happy if religions decide to close THEIR churches. When was the last time you went into a Mormon temple for example? Not allowed in there, and that is fine, it's their religion and their choice. You can be insensitive if you want but don't try to paint yourself as somehow more than a selfish person who wants what he wants when he wants it.

Dear Monica,

There is always someone who answers rhetorical questions. But seeing that you went to the trouble to answer and make grand assumptions about me because a I posed a question. I thought I would make some assumptions about you.

You are are happy for cultures to follow their beliefs. So far so good. We agree with each other.

So therefore am I right to assume that you are happy with cultures that do any of the following?
Polygamy, Bullfighting; Circumcision (male and female), Footbinding, Kayan Brass Coils; Whale Hunting; Fox Hunting; Hunting in general; Disenfrancise women or other minorities; Corporal Punishment; Capital Punishment; Conscription; Arranged Marriages; Ban Contraception; Ban abortions; Allow abortions; Female Infanticide; Have Dress Codes for women, Deny Education to women and/or other minorities; Don't allow homosexuals?

Or are you a hypocrite like everyone else on the planet?

I know this is all off topic and I said it would be my last post, but I couldn't let this one slide.

Going back to the original question?

Is it as sacred and profoundly meaningful to you to climb Uluru as it is to aboriginal peoples to have it undisturbed?

To put it another way, why do you feel you MUST CLIMB the rock?

<<Finally, if climbing a rock is so divisive, what hope do we as a nation have of solving the far more complex issues facing minorities in this country?>>

None! None that is if the minorities are having to deal with people such as yourself. In order for reconciliation to be achieved both sides have to have a bit of give and take and respect for beliefs. I think the aborigines are happy to oblige but I think there are many, many white folk who refuse to yield on land rights etc and Uluru is a sore point for them. It IS a sacred site, the traditional owners have not BANNED the climb, they have not CLOSED the climb they politely ask that you DON'T climb. Where's your respect for this culture, world traveller? You've assured us here that you weren't going to discuss this further and I see you've posted this thread on THREE new threads in the lounge - unable to let it go.

<<Mass tourism is often offensive and people can be thoughtless and disrespectful in all places and situations.>>

Your words from your Environmental Management thread. It really is the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

I have started the new threads as they are interesting to me
(and others given the number of response) but not related directly to Ayers Rock. I like hypotheticals. But this thread gives the background to my questions. Respond to me there not here.

Please don't make assumptions about me or my beliefs just because I pose the hard questions. Just because I pose them doesn't mean I have a certain viewpoint. Sometimes I have no viewpoint at all. But I am interested in others.

In answer to Cyanna. Most definitely! In as far as one can compare emotions, beliefs, pain etc. Who has more grief when a child dies? The Mother? The Father? The Sibling?

If it wasn't important I wouldn't have done it. I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing. Geomorphology and my relationship with my God is. I had seen enough of the volcano to satisfy my spirit/soul. Summiting would not have added to the experience. Likewise, although wishing to pay respect to the sailors of the Arizona in Pearl Harbour. I chose not take the free tour so that our tickets could go to someone to whom that site is truly significant. (I hope they did - but I will never know) I do usually visit all war memorials and read all the names. But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down.

Climbing to the top of Ayers Rock was one of the most amazing and profound experiences of my life. It ranks with being on glaciers and active volcanoes.

It is the feeling of immense age and geologic power. God's power. (I am not religious zealot. I attend no formal Church. Only nature.)

Ayers Rock "talks" to you. Talks to your soul. The silence. The breeze. The age. The colours (Ayers Rock is actually grey, only the thinnest outside layer is red).The variety of sounds the different rock layers make when you walk on them. The pattens inthe rock. The layers of age we cannot comprehend. The plants and the waterholes. The shrimp that occur only on Ayers Rock. The birds.

It was a physical and emotion pain to leave the rock. I had spent five hours on it and would, in a blink of an eye, return. It is that special.

So yes, such things are vitally important to me.
I fully understand that others will think I am mad.
I also fully understand that to many if not most toursists it is just a bit of red rock to tick off on their list of places they have been. I pity them.

I understand the anguish of the Aborigines because it is mine too. But from a different viewpoint.

For the record I generally avoid places of mass tourism so as to not add to the problem. Also there are few places of mass tourism that are based around geology which is why I travel. I long to see the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone. But fear what tourism has done.

Why do you travel? Follow my thread at:-
http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/why-do-you-travel-why-do-you-leave-your-own-country.cfm

I think that if peterSale does not stop this, he'll go blind.

OMG Peter_S_Aus yes, and his arm must be getting very sore by now. So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'. What a crock of sheets!

Puhlease!!! Somebody his the triangle!!! Puhlease!!

"So he only respects something when it's not 'his thing'."

Exactly, stormbird! - and there's the REAL hypocrisy.

The aboriginal people who supposedly have a "bad reputation" in this country according to peterSale, but who have the LEGAL rights to control access, only ASK that people not climb the rock - thereby eroding and disrespecting it.

(Interesting that peter, who supposedly is fascinated by natural land forms, doesn't mind participating in a climb that, in effect, helps destroy the integrity of a natural landform)

Maybe they need to actually ban climbing before people like peter really "respect" anything.

Some good did come from one climber's unfortunate slip to his death.

Azaria Chamberlain's matinee jacket was found when the rescue team was searching for his body, leading ultimiately to Lindy's release and the overturning of her conviction for murder.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainaccount.html

Too true Bokhara. When all that started we had been living overseas, a remote area of PNG without television, radio or daily newspaper so we had actually heard nothing of the whole business.

We returned to Australia in 1982 just when Lindy was going to trial. So this was the first I had heard of the dingo and the baby. I really couldn't understand all the hysteria over the case as it seemed really quite plausible to me that yes, a dingo could take a baby. At the time I seemed to be the only one in Australia that thought Lindy was actually quite innocent.

Now in light of events up at Fraser Island and the fact that we have so many domestic dog attacks that can kill an adult - well how hard was it to establish the truth? Pride cometh before a fall (as far as the forensic/police involved).

This was a very grave injustice against the Chamberlain family particularly, Lindy but I'm pleased they seemed to have been able to pick up the pieces and move on.

If there is one pet hate that I have it is injustice - there is nothing that can make up for someone who has been unjustly accused.

No one with 1/2 a brain, knows anything at all about wild dogs, or lived in the country & seen dingos would doubt one could carry a baby off for a nanosecond, stormbird.

And the worst thing is, those NT dolts who were out to get her could not possibly have lived in that area and not known it was more than likely exactly as she said. It was a deliberate set-up from the minute the first inquest was over & the Chamberlains cleared - through the fabricated forensics & lunatic theories about names & dress colours & the witch hunt because she behaved with dignity, didn't wail like a banshee in public & wouldn't back down.

I was reminded of it today because I saw an article about Lindy being back for the 30th anniversary.

FANTASTIC!
If you don't like peoples opinions - Call them names.
If you really don't like them - Banish them.
What if you hate their opinions?

If you can't handle the opinions of others why are you on a forum?

Cyanna asked what I felt was a serious question and I answered it as such. I know people will not understand exactly how I feel but that is no excuse for name calling, that only belittles you.

I note that you chose to ignore my Pearl Harbour example as that does not suit your opinion of me. And you obviously missed the Mauna Kea point.

I look forward to an intelligent response from Cyanna and hope she has a broader mind and a more caring attitude to others than is apparent by the the last few posts about me.

How does the things that excite you, make you feel? Great art? Cathedrals? Whatever. Are your feelings more worthwhile, than others? Should you be caled names because of your feelings? More rhetorical questions.

<<I chose to respect the wishes of the Hawaiians and not to climb the summit of Mauna Kea in Hawaii as "summiting" is not my thing>>

Just clarify then PeterSale - if 'summiting' WAS your thing would you then have climbed the summit of Mauna Kea? The way I read it you are implying that if summiting was your thing well then you would have climbed the summit.

If then, that is the case then you in no way respected the wishes of the Hawaiians but quite frankly just chose not to climb - respect for wishes had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Your arguments seem somewhat flawed and

<<But Pearl Harbour although significant to our history is not Gallipoli or Tobruk and preference should be given to those who really care deep down>>

Fickle?

Hello. Me again! Another long one, but I’m sure the other readers of this thread will find it most fascinating. Let’s look at some REAL hypocrisy .

How contrary are you all? Let’s find out by following a few of your threads and reading your profiles.

As you read about yourselves, remember I WILL defend to the death your right to freedom of speech. But will you defend my right?

Stormbird is all for respecting cultures especially the Aborigines. Yet she ignores the culture of Fodor's by swearing even if cleverly disguised. How long have you been a member? 4 years?
Surely you read the terms?
What threads has Stormbird started?
One attacking Julia Gillard; another joking about people with dementia and yet another endorsing a video that promotes racial and cultural stereotypes. (yes the Lamb ads)

BUT the BEST BIT? THE ABSOLUTE BEST BIT? To quote her directly.
“The main thing we wanted to do here was go 4WDriving over the famous 'Big Red' sand dune. We weren't disappointed - the dune goes on for miles and miles and rises to about 150 metres I guess. Of course, for us the challenge was going to be between the 2 Nissan Patrol wagons and the 2 Toyota Land Cruisers.”
This is from her Trip report “Birdsville...are we there yet?”

All that way to drive over a sand dune and have a 4WD competition? What about the traditional owners? Not to mention the environment! How many shock absorbers did you replace? And brakes? Didn’t you get Mother Nature’s hint that you were not welcome? What is the carbon footprint of four 4WDs x6500km?

If I can’t WALK on Ayers Rock, can I DRIVE a 4WD over it instead?

MONICA bought a new sofa/chair combo because the old one was the WRONG COLOUR. YOU get what you want when you want it. How selfish of you! THEN she starts a vitriolic thread attacking St Vincent’s de Paul, because – God Bless Them – they will not lower their standards and accept her second hand sofa. Very caring. Very sensitive. What are you painting yourself as?

PETER_S_AUS only wants to go to Venice. Is this further evidence of a narrow mind or does he suffer from the sins of Onan? Or is he just obsessive? What about your greenhouse contributions to travel there? Won’t that create sea level rises and help flood Venice? OH! But you WANT to visit? That’s your thing. I could hunt through your threads but the others had well and truly proved my point. Plus, we have the same name and that added to my disguise.

OH MY! How the mighty have fallen. And to think others bleatingly follow you.
What will I find in your threads? Libretto and Bokhara2 et al?

Despite all this you people have the temerity to call ME a hypocrite. I NEVER said I wasn’t.

But I do follow MY conscience. Just like YOU. How scary.

Read about yourselves in Matthew 7: 1-5. And “Beaumont Rag” by Redgum. The live version on “Caught in the Act” is best.

Finally, if you want to know who I am.
Matthew 16: 18 (Just the first bit will do.)
And my last name? Just a sign on the house across the road. There is, I believe, a town in Victoria as well. Peter S Aus can confirm that.

I might change my alias again and… I might not.

Dear Cyanna,

Are you still out there?

Don’t be afraid to answer me. As long as you are honest with yourself (and me) I will defend your opinions. I may not like them or agree with them. But they are yours and you are entitled to them.

This has been, and always will, be my Main Point.

Who has the right to force you, ask you or encourgage you to change what you think is right to what they think is right? Certainly not me or any of the other hypocrites on this site.

Dear Keith,


Sorry to take up so much of your thread. Did you have any idea what you would start?

But I can't stand hypocrites who call others hypocrites.

Climb if you want to climb. Don't if you don't. It is YOUR Choice YOUR conscience. You won't stand out from the crowd either way.

All the best.

I think I’ll respond. peterSale seems to have a problem with my wife and I going to Venice, greenhouse gas and all that. I note that he mentions that he has visited some 35 countries, presumably not under his own steam. We like Venice, and I suppose we’ll make a small contribution to the local economy when we visit. It is not exactly the sin of Onan to visit a place that one likes.

I visited Uluru about 15 years ago. I created virtually NO greenhouse gas in the process, unless you count about 1000 km by bus, and travelling from Townsville to Mt Isa by train. The balance of the trip was made by bicycle. http://www.fodors.com/community/australia-the-pacific/australian-road-trip.cfm refers. Maybe I was a bit fit by the time I made it to Yulara with a few thousand kilometres on the clock, so meandering up the rock was no big deal. As I said in the trip report referenced, I’m not proud of that, and was ignorant at the time. I suppose I was a bit proud of my means of transport to Yulara, and I guess I discovered a little of the geomorphology of this country in 8000 km of cycling.

So, climbing Uluru. Climb if you want to. Don’t climb if you don’t want to. The traditional owners, who have leased the area to National Parks, ask that you don’t climb, and ask that you don’t photograph some areas at the base of the rock. It is their right to make such a request, and you won’t get into trouble from anyone, except maybe your own conscience, if you ignore their request. It is the right of anyone, unless climbing is prohibited, to ignore such a request. Simple.

There’s a parallel, the Sistine Chapel. Photography is not allowed. The fact that you’ve paid to get in does not exempt you from that rule, and it’s their rule. It is policed by gentlemen who shout a bit and flash laser pointers into the eyes of the many people who break the rule. I guess they think they have the right to police their rules – and the fact that I don’t share their religion does not exempt me from their rules.

And Pete, if you want to get inside my head a little more, an extract from something I wrote a while ago:

I’m reminded of the patience of Aboriginal people. At Wattie Creek, the Garunji people achieved land rights by sitting on the ground for eight years. It makes Wattie Creek a special place in Australian history. And when I was at the Barunga Aboriginal Festival a few weeks later, I heard over the PA, “Where’s the Wattie Creek football team”. Puts a bit of a lump in the throat, it would be like hearing the Gallipoli soccer side called, or the Kokoda rugby team summonsed. People with a link, a thread, to places where there has been great courage displayed. Or the Agincourt Archery Club if you were English, I suppose.

So it will take a while before people desist from climbing Uluru - maybe 50 years, maybe 100. The traditional owners are patient people. They know how to wait.

Well, PeterSale I think you'll find that Big Red is not part of any traditional land held by our Aborigines nor is it part of any National Park. Our vehicle required no attention after our day on Big Red - no new shocks, no new brakes, no new anything in fact.

Making fun of dementia - not sure what that is but guessing it was the joke I relayed in the Lounge about the friends through the years from about 20 to 90 at the restaurant?? It's a joke for heavens sake.

Our Lamb ads promote racial and cultural stereotypes?

Your first post here was a 'pot stirrer' to say the least and you surely didn't expect us all to pat you on the back for your efforts there.

You've posted this thread across three different topics - a little bizarre behaviour really.

Now you've come back and rather than posting you are seriously ranting now Peter and at a point now where no-one can take your comments seriously as they are what I consider bordering on hysteria.

<<I might change my alias again and… I might not.>> Emphasis on 'again' could this be our old mate Bushranger? He didn't last long either!

And BTW, FYI - I certainly don't consider myself a hypocrite but I certainly appreciate your right to think so.

Stormbird. ALL of Australia has traditional owners. That's what Mabo was all about. Just because there is no claim in place or it is not declared does not mean is does not belong to them or they will not be offended. I agree YOUR 4WD was fine, it was the other that needed fixing.

I know that you don't think you are a hypocrite. Most hypocrites don't. That's what makes you so hilarious. That is why the bible quote is so apt.

And don't trot out the old "it is only a joke" defense. Try that in a workplace tribunal or a court. See how far it gets you.

I only "rant" in this thread. That's because you keep taking the bait and showing your true colours. I am naturally verbose. I like words and I like to get people to think. Others in the other threads like me. Not because we share the same views, but because we are open to other people's opinions.

Dear Peter_S_Aus

Now the we have stopped calling each other names...
I don’t want to get into anybody’s head. It is bad enough being in mine!

There is no doubt the climb will be closed. That is why I visited this year. (yes, yes, we’ve done the whole ignorance and selfish bit)

But I think you do yourself a disservice. I think it will be closed in the next five to ten years. It is clearly one of the goals in the ten year management plan ending in 2020. As soon as the climber number drop to 20% of visitors. My sore point is that they are artificially speeding up the process by what are perceived as spurious closures.

Certainly as land owners they have the right to close it if they want. They have played the political/cultural game and won. I have covered my views on that and the inherent contradictions.

But just because they have the right, does not mean they are correct in the way they exercise it. Just as people disagree with me exercising my current right to climb it. And this goes for any right. A smoker has the right to smoke but should he do it next to you at an outdoor cafe?

Your Sistine Chapel example though, has one flaw. You can visit it. You can marvel at all of its beauty. I haven’t been there so I can’t comment, but are tourists stopped from seeing the most beautiful and special parts? We will be when the climb is closed.

To most tourists the Rock is just a rock and they do it and themselves no honour by trampling over it. But to others like myself, it is special. I would like to see a compromise. Small guided groups? Written application? I don’t know.

My main concern I suppose is that it was originally declared a World Heritage are for its geology then seven years later for its cultural significance. As a World Heritage area it should belong to or at least be accessible to anyone who is truly interested in either of these two aspects. How you would judge that is another debate for another day. It just seems that the geological aspect has faded into the background. And for me that is shame.

I’ve said it in my other thread. I am not interested in any Cultures per se. That is not why I travel. Geomorphology is.

Is this better than name calling?

PeterSale, seriously, that was the best you could do? I must indeed really be a hypocrite if I replaced my furniture bought when I was 28 and newly married 14 years later with a more updated style and then was frustrated when St. Vincent de Paul wouldn't take the old one.

Before my trip to Australia I was dreaming about climb to the top of the Ayers Rock, but my interest in climb was gone when I arrived there. Read this if you have any doubts about climb it or not
http://www.shorttraveltips.com/destinations/sightseeing/ayers-rock-uluru-climb-it-or-not/

You don't climb Ayers Rock because it is the biggest. You climb it because it is there and because it is special.

Sadly, you missed one of the best walking experiences in the world. The five hours I spent on top was not nearly long enough. I would have needed at least another three to see it properly. But, thanks to silly regulations there was not enough time.

It is however, your conscience and your choice.