I don't think you need three nights at Dali, what were you thinking of doing there? Are you planning to see Tiger Leaping Gorge? What about Kunming?

Don't want to see Kunming. In Dali, if we stay at the Linden Centre that's actually in Xizhou Village, we'd be doing more cultural immersion type things in local villages. I do want to visit Tiger Leaping Gorge, which I expected to do on drive from Lijiang to Shangri La. But now, i'm thinking of cutting out Shangri La since it's such a long drive from Lijiang and it seems like there's only one site, the monastery, and the altitude probably would bother my husband. I'd add more days around Lijiang then. Any thoughts on this?

Lijiang is totally touristy (many Chinese tour groups), but the surroundings are very scenic. Having read up on the Linden center I might stay longer there rather than in Lijiang, but make sure you get to some of the village markets. (And I don't care what their brochure says, treat anything claimed to be authentically old with deep suspicion.)

thursdaysd,
what if we stayed outside of Lijiang, like at the Banyan Tree Lijiang, so that we could tour the countryside from there...and just visit the old part of Lijiang for a couple of hours?

Personally I'd rather stay in Lijiang itself, but that resort looks like it's way out my price range in any case. BTW, why not Kunming? Have you been there before? It's a pleasant city, and much less touristy than the other places you're planning to visit in Yunnan.

We stayed at both the Banyan Tree resorts in the area and it was wonderful. We met another couple while we were visiting in Lijiang and they were staying in town but when they saw our resort they were so mad that they did not choose to stay at the Banyan. Not far from town, beautiful grounds, rooms and a fantastic view of the Jade Dragon mountain. We stayed there for 3 nights before moving on to Shangri La(Zhongdian) staying at the very beautiful Banyan Tree Ringha.

Kunming is just another industrial town in China and we have stayed there a few times mostly fr transit before moving to other destinations in the area. Dali is suppose to be nice but we have never been.

Thanks, Hanuman! BTW, I read your earlier posts where you provided a link to your photos on Smugmug...but when I clicked, they require a password. Is there another way to view them? Do you think that the Shangri La area is worth the drive? I was looking at staying next door to the monastery at the Songstam Retreat, rather than the Banyan Tree Ringha. I may go with the Banyan Tree Lijiang, altho it is rather expensive, because I want to experience the beauty of the countryside and they did offer a number of excursions.

I also had read that Kunming is just a large city and I want scenic beauty.

Barefoot,

I've reset the password, see at the end of this post. The town of Shangri La or Zhongdian was nothing spectacular and IMO they tried to copy Lijiang but did not do a very good job. The surrounding area was very nice and the best part of Shangri La was the spectacular monestary.

Then Banyan in Lijiang is well worth the price and the the basic villa with the Jacuzzi is the best option IMO. We stayed in the pool villa but that was not worth it because the water was too cold.


Password: Fodors

Lijiang: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Lijiang/China-07-LijiangIMG1380/214502137_pe9wo-X3.jpg

Shangrila: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Shangri-La/China-07-LijiangLijiang-No-2/214737020_gqN7c-X3.jpg

Banyan Tree: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Banyan-Tree-Hotels/China-07-LijiangIMG1360/214501902_qp9n5-X3.jpg

Oops wrong link. Password is the same but click on these links instead.

Lijiang: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Lijiang/3733848_rLtdRf#!i=214502137&k=pe9wo

Shangri La: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Shangri-La/3740053_T36RX2#!i=214737020&k=gqN7c

Banyan Tree: http://khun-pook.smugmug.com/Travel/Banyan-Tree-Hotels/3739955_nXF5sH#!i=214501902&k=qp9n5

Hanuman, Thanks so much for sending a new link. The pictures are gorgeous and you were lucky to have such beautiful weather! The Shangri La monastery looks beautiful, as does Ringha, but I think I will spend more time in Lijiang area rather than drive up to Shangri La....and try to nab a better price at the Banyan Tree.

If anyone has more info on the Dali area, I'd love to hear it!

Have you considered Jinghong in the south? It's in an area called Xixuangbanna, a tropical area with small towns, tea growing areas that are the home of pu-erh tea and a great weekly hill tribe market near the Burma border.

I spent a month in Yunnan and liked Dali and Lijiang but especially liked the south. Jinghong is on the Mekong River and there are boats one can take from the area south to Laos & Thailand which I did.

MmePerdu,
No I haven't looked at this area. I'm finding that it's not that easy to find decent flights into Dali or Lijiang that don't involve a long or overnight layover, so I'd think it also might be hard to get to this area. I'm trying to plan the "easiest" trip possible with no bus or trains and not a lot of time transferring from place to place.
But, thanks for the recom and I will look at this. I did check out a new resort that just opened in this area...pretty pricey like the Banyan Tree.

Buses to Dali from Kunming & on to Lijiang are not at all bad. Then we flew from Lijiang to Jinghong. All quite simple, no overnights. I cannot bear long bus rides, would scratch a destination before I'd do it.

I find the most accurate information of this sort can often be gotten on a forum called the Oriental List, frequently answered by expats in China, moderated by Peter Neville-Hadley.
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html
http://www.hmssurprise.org/wa.cgi?SUBED1=oriental-list&A=1

MmePerdu,
Thank you so much for sharing those links. I'll look right into that.

I'm trying to get into the above links but don't seem to be able to figure out where the info is after I subscribed. Help please!

dgunbug, I had the same problem, altho today I got a health alert email stating that the pollution in China increases the risk of heart attacks. On the site, I couldn't seem to get past all the posting requirements.

It's not a forum like this is a forum. Many fewer posters and they come sequentially by email rather than being available on a website. You can get them as they're sent out or in digest form, periodically. Post a question and wait for replies. It's just about China so obviously the traffic will be much less. But the participants tend to be either living in China or go often so the information is specific and up to the minute. Just not the deluge of general Q&A like this one but excellent information.

I'm used to it so didn't think to point out the differences. Sorry about that. But do send in your questions and make them as specific to your requirements as you can.

That is, email your questions to the address supplied.

oriental-list@DATASINICA.COM

MmePerdu's link to a competing web site to Fodors, completing for your "clicks", is allowed and my mentioning that the moderator is the same guy known over here as Peter NH is "removed" - go figure!

MmePerdu, thanks for clarifying. I got another email today showing the extent of China's pollution seen by satellite. When I have a specific travel question, I'll ask them.

BTW, I've just "discovered" a different tour operator to get a private journey quote from....China Highlights. While I've been going back and forth about doing this on my own (especially after reading Peter NH's previous posts about why you shouldn't use one), I will sleep better at night if I can trust all the logistics to local knowledge and assistance. There are extensive positive reviews of this company on TA.

I've come around to the idea that a well chosen tour operator can be useful for a first trip to a new culture when you don't speak the language and don't have a long time to stay and figure it all out. It can be the practical compromise.

The main complaints from disappointed tour takers seem to be group size, quality of the food and many stops for shopping "opportunities". Knowledgeable travelers in China also say that the history presented is largely invented so you might want to look for your information from outside sources if that's important to you.

Regarding shopping at stops along the way, not sure how this can be avoided since apparently the kickbacks from merchants are a sizable portion of the guides' income. It may be inevitable. But do make a big point of asking and insist that you don't make these stops and maybe they'll be reduced to a minimum. And I'd guess that group size could be related to food quality as it's easier to feed a large group at a buffet. So if your group is very small then that may make a difference.

But all this is hearsay as I've only traveled independently in Yunnan, my only China experience, where I spent a month. I have to tell you that the places you plan to visit are on a well-trodden tourist path and I see no reason why you'd have to put up with the down side of a tour where you plan to go. I suggest you investigate every detail offered and ask for changes of items that aren't your first choice if this is, in fact, a custom tour. Often I think the recommendations people make of tour companies come from those who have never traveled any other way so don't know what fun it can be to have the option of spontaneity and possibly a much better all around experience. I think one can pay a huge price for the convenience of a tour, even the relative good ones.

Thanks MmePerdu,
The China Highlights site addresses the shopping issue and claims no forced shopping visits. Since our itinerary is being developed for just my husband and I, we have flexibility and the final word in what we want to do....and I do want to do "some" quality shopping. They also claim you don't eat at dumbed down tourist haunts but at local, authentic places. We're also on our own at dinner, which I think is a good thing. A lot of their good press on TA does come from independent travel people who say this is the first tour they've taken.

But given all that, I'm still coming up with what I'd pay to book this all independently. If there's a big difference, I'll go it alone and risk the inconveniences. I can arrange transfers from all the hotels I'm staying at and I've already tracked down a lot of good independent local guides. I guess I'm most concerned about last minute flight problems and getting them resolved, standing in long lines to get admission tickets, boarding passes, etc., knowing where to go biking or hiking without getting lost, help in deciphering menus, and lastly, but hopefully will not be an issue, what if there's a disaster (like an earthquake) and no one is aware where we are or how to get us out.

Let me see if I can address any of the concerns.

1. Last minute flights. In China it's much more the norm to buy tickets what we'd consider last minute. We bought some, for instance, from a travel agent in Dali. That's not a big issue.

2. Admission tickets to what? Yunnan isn't Beijing. I never saw a line for anything.

3. Getting lost. People are very helpful. Have your hotel write your address on a piece of paper, or anywhere else you might want to go for that matter, and show it to someone. You won't be lost for long.

4. Menus. When a menu isn't in English it's a good thing. That means you aren't in a tourist joint or at least the tourists are probably Chinese. If there's no one to translate they'll take you into the kitchen where you can point at what you'd like. Or point at dishes other people are getting. Much more interesting than knowing what you'll get.

5. Earthquakes. Don't worry about things you can't do anything about.

barefoot - you are a seasoned traveler. No need for all your concern. Do your research and you will enjoy. Often what we remember most and enjoy reflecting on are the crazy experiences most unexpected.

barefoot,

If you hire a local guide he/she can help out with all of your concerns. Our guides got us tickets for the cable car(Jade Dragon), Impression show, arrange the car from one town to another and accompanied us on the ride. Very nice to have a local guide who can speak English as your personal assistant!

You guys are killing me! Price willing, I'm going to go with a tour operator just to prove that you can have a great experience! Or, I'll be eating my words. The jury's not out yet.

For 7 or 8 days it makes perfect sense to have facilitators. It's not much time and to not have to figure out the logistics would be good, assuming your helpers are helping you do what you really want to do and not what they want you to do or what everyone else does. If you get my drift. It's easy and cost effective (more profit) for them if you don't deviate from preplanned itineraries. So if you can avoid this and other pitfalls then I think it makes good sense.

One of my best days was the only day I hired a lovely English speaking guide to drive us down to the market near the Burma border. He took us to visit a woman in a village nearby and to lunch at a country restaurant where we were the only lunchers and I had the best meal of my life. I hope your trip is as successful as that day was for me.

Barefootbeach,
How was your trip to Lijiang? I'm heading to Lijiang and Dali area in mid September and would love any tips and experiences you can share about hiring local guides v. trying to explore on your own.

Thanks!

TravelJoyously,
You'll have to tell me first! We're not going until late October! In Lijiang, we'll be under the wing of China Highlights.

In the Dali area, we're staying at the Linden Centre, which is acclaimed for being a boutique hotel that offers an authentic cultural experience. All the activities are offered by them. They're located in a renovated three courtyard home in the village of Xizhou....near Dali. They've gotten great press...you should check them out.

Have a great trip!

Went to Kunming, Dali and Lijiang this past December. It was great - we used Asiatravel.com for all arrangements and booking us a car plus English speaking guide.

Dali is good for perhaps 2 days - highlight was boating on the Er Hai Lake - fisherman use cormorants to catch fish - an amazing spectacle. Dali did not have much to offer. Walk around a bit in the old town, grab dinner and people watch!

For Lijiang, strongly recommend the Crowne Plaza - lovely hotel with a great view from their foyer and an 'empty' heated pool for what it's worth. We actually bought swimming costumes and used the pool - great fun! The hotel is walking distance to the old town which we explored on our own. We went to the Jade Mountain and found it well organized. We did the tiger- leaping- gorge trek - not the whole thing what with our then 6.5 year old in tow - stayed overnight at the Naxi Village Guesthouse - basic but charming. You can also have a horse carry your bags for the walk. It was a different experience altogether, and far from the madding crowd. Be prepared for loooong drives to anywhere but roads are generally good and people helpful.

From Kunming we did the Shi Lin stone forest and Jiu Xiang underground caves. We did not go to Shangrila. - really much further out. I would have liked to visit Yuang Yuan to see the terraced rice fields but again the distance was a deterrent.

All in all, it was a pretty memorable trip, the highlight being the overnight trek at the Tiger Leaping Gorge.

Oh, and we flew in and out of Hongkong to Kunming and back.

Sorry, forgot to answer your question - a full day and a half is enough for Dali unless you are going walking up the mountains. For Lijiang if you are going to do the trek and enoy the environs, four to five days should be more than enough. I would suggest you finish the the trek and stay one more night at Lijiang to recoup and enjoy the trappings of luxury! Connections from Kunming to Hong Kong are once a day, as I recall you will end up spending time there.

P.s. do try the Dali beer. And be prepared for the loos!

tongsa,
thanks for the update! I'm looking forward to the Crowne Plaza and walking around Lijiang. Impressive you id the Tiger Leaping Gorge trek...we'll probably just get a walk in (especially because I just trashed me knee!) I'll see Dali for a short visit but will skip the cormorants.

Lijiang Crowne Plaza is an awesome hotel. The best one we stayed in China, and we stayed in many good ones. I would recommend the Blue Papaya restaurant, which is a 15 minute walk from the hotel. The Jade Mountain will be chilly, so dress accordingly.