Where to start and when?

Please reconsider OAT!! Some people do like them, but I made the mistake of going to Thailand with them, back when I started traveling, and swore I'd never go anywhere with them again. I use Intrepid if I want a tour group in Asia: they have a max of 12 people, great itineraries, cheap rates, use local transport, but you do have to be prepared to rough it a bit. You could also look at Peregrine, Imaginative Traveler, and (more expensive) Adventures Abroad. There are several higher end outfits too. But if you stay in backpacker-type places (interspersed with more comfortable digs), you'll meet plenty of people.

If you do a search here on "china tour" you'll find all the reasons why people recommend doing China on your own! And really, all of Asia is very do-able - with lots of transportation options.

Two months is a fair amount of time. I spent three months doing SEA back in 2002, but I included Laos (highly recommended) and Malaysia (see wilhelmswords.com/asia2002). You could spend a month in China, and then go south for a month in Vietnam and finish in Bangkok. Do you need time on the islands?

I usually do initial planning with the glossy guidebooks - Fodor's Exploring, Insight, Knopf and Eyewitness - to get an idea of where I want to go, and then sit down with Lonely Planet to plan the logistics. For info on the best time to visit see www.lonelyplanet.com/china/weather and www.lonelyplanet.com/vietnam/weather

Patrick,
Glad that the SEAsia but has bitten! And I'm happy that our HNL GTG was at least part of the inspiration to get you to Thailand and other surrounding countries.

Since I seem to be going to BKK more and more often every year, there is at least a 50% chance that I/and/or DS would be there at the same time.

Let the planning begin!

Carol

(oh, and Happy Thanksgiving)

Hi Patrick. I've read and enjoyed many of your reports on the Europe Board. I am happy to see you traveling again.

I think there's a big difference between traveling "independently" and traveling "solo." Not everyone enjoys traveling alone and I commend you for listening to your instincts. I know myself, and while I'm not a person who takes tours, I know I would not be happy traveling alone either.

I can't recommend a tour company because I've never used one, but I've heard good things about Intrepid. There are a few people here who have done river tours through Burma and down the Mekong and I think the company they used did not charge a single supplement. They are called Pandaw cruises. You might also want to google something like "tour companies which don't charge a single supplement."

It sounds like you want to do a fair amount in 2 months. I also like the idea of a month in China and a month in South East Asia. However, it would be very easy to fill ALL your time in Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. As for time of year, it will be hot and wet, but with the exception of Nov-Jan, it's pretty much always like that there. I've been twice in July (including 2 weeks in Vietnam this past summer) and survived. You just need to allow yourself a little extra leeway to recover from the heat and humidity.

If you click on my name, you'll see all my trip reports for SEA and a link to my website with photos. It might help you narrow your destination choices a bit.

thursdaysd, one thing those other posts don't really cover when discussing traveling alone is the feeling of no one to share it with. I think that's my issue at the moment. Sure, I could manage on my own, but right now I'm thinking it's no fun to say "wow, look at that" when you're all by yourself. While I've always enjoyed doing my own planning, I feel that without a guide I tend not to really delve into the specifics of places -- I'm not one to stand and read all the background material, etc. I kind of need the organized tour to MAKE me do and learn a lot more than walk by something and just say "isn't that beautiful". So while I thrive in cities alone, the historic sites I think I'd prefer a group with guide. Hiring private guides and drivers is not my thing and probably not my budget either (even though I know they don't have to be expensive). I will check out some of those other companies, though. And while I don't need luxury, I really don't picture myself in any "backpacker" type place. Just not me, I'm afraid.

What was it about OAT that made you not want to ever travel with them again? How did they differ from the other tours you mention?

Carol, well we'll have to aim for that 50% chance then. I'm convinced I want to spend some time-- at least a week or so IN Bangkok, and I also think I could easily do Chaing Mai/Chaing Rai on my own as well.

NeoPatrick - I understand the desire to share. I'm a solo traveler, and I deal with it by using the Internet - I used to send emails to a list run from my website, now I blog and twitter. I actually find that when I travel with someone, I concentrate on them rather than the sights.

I agree that a car and driver and/or guide for one isn't cost-effective - that's where staying with the backpackers can help - you can often hook up with someone who will split the costs. And I don't mean really low-end places - I usually stay towards the bottom end of Lonely Planet's mid-range listings. (BTW, there are discussions of solo travel on the Travel Tips forum.)

Re: OAT - this is from a previous post of mine:
"As I have posted before, I went to Thailand with OAT in '97, and swore I would never use them again. An acquaintance recently took the same tour (she didn't talk to me beforehand!) and says the same. In both cases the guide was poor: mine was clearly bored with his job, and his English failed him anytime we asked a question he didn't want to answer, she also felt that her guide was a disappointment (we think it may have been the same man).

In addition the hotels were out of town, the food was very poor - dumbed down for foreigners, or foreign food indifferently prepared - we sat on the AC'd coach in the cooler mornings and were outside in the hotter afternoons, and it was hard to avoid the shopping "opportunities". Finally, the paid-for business class upgrades for the return flights were only honored as were about to board the flight - it appeared OAT had some kind of standby arrangement with the airline, rather than confirmed seats."

I've heard other problems about the flight arrangements with OAT and I won't have those as I'd be doing my own flights. They've changed in the last few years as they used to often require you to take their air package, now they give you a decebt credit for not taking it.

And while I won't disagree with your experience it seems to be just the opposite of what numerous other posts, and several good friends of mine have had to say. Their comments were a full 180 degrees opposite of what you've expressed, including about local foods and guides. Of course no one can deny that it is possible to get a "bad" guide with any company there is. But from all the raves I've seen for OAT's guides -- I think I'd worry less about them than with most companies.

You also must admit that everyone claims OAT has changed drastically in the past 5 or 6 years. Your experience TWELVE years ago may have NOTHING to do with any of their policies today. I thought you were referring to a trip in the last year or two. I would ignore any 12 year old comments about any hotel or restaurant and I'd be more likely to ignore them about a tour company that has totally reorganized and changed. I've often heard that their tours, for example, do not do ANY of those hated shopping stops as they used to do (like most tours used to do). Any shopping is done strictly on your own time, and they seem to offer enough of that to please. The tours are filled up not with the usual "glass factory tour" or whatever, but rather with home stops and meetings with locals.

I'm not into hostels, backpacking stops, or even sharing baths. Nor do I do overnight trains or flights if they can possibly be avoided. Those are mainly what I'm seeing on the Intrepid site, and I'm just not interested. I especially love the idea of being able to book a single (mostly at NO supplement) with OAT and not having to take a chance on a roommate, yet being with a group. I started looking at Adventure Abroad and it seems fairly good -- but about triple the price of OAT including big single supplements and doesn't even cover any meals on the tours I looked at.

My experience with OAT was indeed 12 years ago. But the acquaintance who took the same trip with the same complaints went just a couple of years back. And I have NOT heard that OAT has changed drastically lately, and have read posts from unhappy travelers that are much more recent than that. But, as I said initially, some people really like them, maybe you'll be one of them.

Hi Patrick,
Am glad that you are contemplating SEA. If you recall when we met in NYC, I was planning my first trip. You can look at my trip report especially for China. I have alway had my own bathroom and have stayed in some lovely places, though not 5*.

Will try to finish Myanmar soon.

Hi Patrick. I have done a lot of SEA travel over the years and especially to Thailand (going again in January). Although I do not know you , I have read enough of your fabulous trips with Lee to Europe and NYC to know a roughing it trip would not be you.I always travel independently so I can't really recommend a particular tour company. I can see it must be strange for you to be setting off now on your own.I am a little apprehensive of travelling to NYC next year on my own without my partner too.I feel you are the type of person who would quickly make friends in a small group so why not go ahead with the company of which you have heard good reports.You are unlikely to be seeing any theatre but the food will knock your socks off in a way different to that you have tried before. Usually Thailand's best times are Nov - Feb. It is always hot but other times the humidity is horrendous. Have a great trip and give us another of your entertaining reports!

NeoPatrick, sign up with OAT and go. They are doing wonderful job and all guides gotta compete in quality of works offered to keep their place in OAT. I'm an ex-tour leader for them and my leave is nothing about their reputation. Just step out on my own and build my own business. Happy travels

Patrick, I usually do travel on my own, but the two "group" tours I've taken in the past six years or so have been OAT (to Peru and South Africa; in both cases, lack of adequate time for thorough research was my primary factor for taking a group tour.)

On both trips, I was with a small group of people whom I found to be quite interesting; I did take a bit of time "away" from the group activities as I treasure my solitude, but I have no problems with the company and do appreciate their surcharge-free singles trips. A small group makes it easier to do some of the "experiences" that they feature, although I'm not much for the home-hosted dinners, myself.

My trip to SE Asia (Vietnam and Cambodia) was through Untours, but unfortunately they no longer run that trip. However, it's more alone time than you'd probably want, and I think OAT might be a good fit for you.

(PS: I admire and appreciate thursdaysd, but can only give you that my experiences with OAT were quite positive.)

PS: Here's a link to my two OAT trips, just to give you some idea of the pacing/atmosphere:

http://www.fodors.com/community/africa-the-middle-east/sixteen-days-of-south-africa-sunshine.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/mexico-central-america/peru-from-the-andes-to-the-amazon-trip-report.cfm

I went to Thailand with OAT about 3 years ago. Like you, Patrick, I did not want to go on my own. Our guide was excellent, hotels and food were good. We did have one hotel you could only reach by boat, but I enjoyed being out in the middle of nowhere. I especially enjoyed seeing the river Quai and Hellfire pass, places I never thought I`d see. They did have shopping opportunites, which I could have done without. I am glad I went.

Why thanks, Amy! No problem - we're all just reporting our own experiences.

I took a look at the OAT itinerary for China (there's only one, so it was easy). Can't say I was impressed.

I counted six shopping ops - I suppose the good news is that there weren't more.
I checked the Beijing and Xi'an hotels - they're out of the center
Transport to Xi'an is overnight train - not a problem for me, I love trains, but NeoP said no overnight trains (or planes - I'll be interested to see his routing to Asia...)
Two nights in Chengdu, but no visit to Leshan or Emeishan, or to sights within Chengdu itself
Fly to Tibet for just long enough to get acclimatized, and then fly out again (And what price this note: "Attempts by the government to bring the Dalai Lama back to China have been unsuccessful so far.")
Includes a Yangtze river tour - current reports on this are mixed
Overnight in Wuhan
Virtually all meals included, probably meaning a lot of hotel food, instead of letting you out to discover real Chinese food (totally different from almost all Chinese food available in the west)

OAT also recommends tipping in a no tipping country, and suggests a ridiculous amount for the tour leader (of course, any amount other than zero is wrong). We've beaten this issue to death before, so I'll just recommend this post: www.fodors.com/community/asia/china-highlights-tours---reliable.cfm#comment-3213013 and on tour groups in China in general this thread: www.fodors.com/community/asia/china-spree-or-ritz-tours.cfm

I only said "Nor do I do overnight trains or flights if they can possibly be avoided." I'm well aware that overnight flights probably can't be avoided to or from Asia -- but I'll be doing FF business class and can manage with that!

You may also note that in my original post I pointed out that OAT has NO China tours (not even "one" as you mention). They only show the Grand Circle One which is considerably different in format from the way they do OAT tours. And I've already said that their China tours weren't grabbing me. I'm not really thinking of using them in China -- I was really asking more for feedback on their Vietnam/Cambodia tours.

But before I continue much further. Any more comments on going to China and SE Asia in late July through maybe October? Later the better in that time period? I really like to leave Florida then to escape the worst time of year here, so I realize going to hot and humid doesn't solve that problem. And friends when to China in the winter and wished over and over they had gone in the summer as it was just plain cold and overcast most of the time. Is China good in July and August? Then hit Thailand and VietNam more in September?

"I pointed out that OAT has NO China tours" - they have one, see www.oattravel.com/gcc/general/default.aspx?oid=272472&linklocation=search

Timing - you should avoid China in early October because of massive domestic travel for National Day. I found northern China in late August distinctly hot but not humid, but it's a big country and it will depend on where you go. For more info see weatherbase.com and the links I posted above.

I stand corrected. I thought all their China Tours said "Grand Circle". Maybe I just didn't notice because I really didn't like that tour anyway.

I hate to get into the tipping controversy, but I will say this. If an American company hires employees and determines their salaries based on the people taking the tours giving them tips, then I have no problem with them suggesting tipping them. Obviously if they paid them as some tour guides would be paid by a Chinese company, things could be different. To me -- this is not a cultural issue. Those guides are working for an American company with American terms.

And again, I'm only speaking of how the tour guides working for OAT are paid -- Perhaps they are encouraging them to give better service to their American tourists by being rewarded according to how good a job they do? If that is culturally insulting to them, they probably shouldn't apply to work for an American company to begin with. Just my opinion, of course.

My condolences on losing your partner.

I think the best time to go to that part of the world is late October on. Of course, there are different climates, and China will be cooler than Thailand, Cambodia and Viet Nam. I think if you go too early it will be as hot and humid as Florida.

I've booked the OAT Thailand tour with the Cambodia extension for late October 2010. It will be my 7th trip with OAT and Grand Circle. Some trips were better than others and some hotels and location are better than others, but my overall experience with the company has been very good and I think the trips are a good value. The "Discover Thailand" reviews on the web site are almost all excellent. Check the web site for the Viet Nam trip reviews.

Unfortunately, there are shopping stops included on this tour but I plan on skipping out whenever possible; if not possible, then just using them as a learning experience about local crafts. I'm more interested in the local markets and will shop there.

With the exception of Egypt, I've enjoyed the home-hosted lunches and dinners, especially meeting local families.

OAT does limit the size to 16 max and there are only a few single rooms, so to get a single and avoid the supplement, you do need to book early. GCT has larger groups and generally the number of free single rooms is five. However, I think the supplement on the Asia trips are moderate.

I'm glad that they now allow you to make your own air arrangements and I'll be doing it for this trip. I'll fly from Florida to LA and spend a night before the long flight to Bangkok and do the same on the return. Will also arrive at least one day early to get some rest before the tour starts. On my last tour, I spent three days on my own but probably will not on this trip.

I do want to take a China tour but am not interested in the Yangtze River part, which I think is included on both OAT and GCT. Grand Circle is working on a new China trip so I may wait to see what that will be.

If you like boats you might want to look a look at a new GCT trip on a Star Clipper ship that cruises the Andaman Sea starting in Phuket and ending in Singapore. There would be other passengers on the ship and likely from different countries.

From the OAT handbook: "Of course, whether you tip, and how much, is always at your discretion." The guideline is $7 - $10 per day. I have no problem with that.

You have quite an adventure ahead and I like your idea of mixing tours with a small group with independent travel. Good luck with your planning.

If you do decide to book with OAT, give the name and membership number of one of your friends who have traveled with them and you will get a $50 discount and they will get a $100 discount from their next trip for the refferal.