A wise man once told me (and something we all struggle with when it happens to us) but things sometimes come up when traveling. Nothing is guaranteed. You're best served to go with the flow and enjoy where you are instead of getting worked up.

I'm sure there was just a mixup. I doubt he was unconcerned...that just doesn't seem like his personality at all. Our experience with him, as countless others have had, was fantastic. And he was always completely reliable.

Keep in mind that you're not dealing with Butterfield & Robinson here. He's a horse cart driver who just happens to have a website and a cell phone number ... which is great deal more technologically advanced than most drivers you'll find in Bagan. But because of that you certainly can't expect someone with an office manager and scheduler.

I'm sure it was a simple misunderstand--and that he's not blatantly ignoring your booking. As I said, it's travel. Go with the flow. I'm sure you can find a bevvy of options as far as horse cart drivers and guides go. Just speak with your hotel and I'm sure they'll hook you up.

I appreciate the need t be flexible. But there was no misunderstaning. He knew he had this booking -- he admitted that. Is it not possible (even without schedulers) to simply call and let us know? We were very much looking forward to meeting him and experiencing the town with him. Sorry to be sounding like a demanding westerner but it is not acceptable to just leave hanging -- no matter where you are. Now let's see how much flak comes my way on this forum!!!!

I think you have set your expectation too high. These horse cart drivers are very basic people and not a full blown tour operator. When we went, a few years ago, all we had to do was to ask our hotel in the morning to arrange it for us. We paid $15 to the driver + tip at the conclusion of our tour and that was it. Can't you just ask the hotel to arrange someone else?

I am sorry to hear about this. I am sure you are disappointed, especially since you had arranged for his services in advance, and were counting on him to show up for his commitment to guide you. As someone who used Min Thu, and thought his guiding added to our experience in Bagan, I think there is no excuse for his not following through with his commitment to guide you. Of couse you can get another horse cart driver, but that is not the point. You are disappointed and in my opinion, you have a right to be. You have no alternative but to make the best of the situation and get another horse cart driver. I hope this disappointment does not spoil your time in Bagan.

shelleyk et al: Thank you Shelley for getting my point. Of course we hired a different horse cart driver but, as you point out, that is NOT the point. We so looked forward -- based on all the great feedback here -- to learning from Min Thu. It has not ruined our trip but it was a big disappointment for sure. And, if he wants to continue to enjoy the great reputation he has earned with others, then he needs not to take his bookings so casually. Even if he had arranged for someone else to be here in his stead I wouldn't feel so negative but he did not even do that. We will enjoy Bagan and continue to enjoy Myanmar...but I do think it is fair to register these thoughts with other Fodorites.

I completely understand the OP's point (not sure why it's so hard for others to grasp). Thanks for the head's up; we're booked with Minthu later this month and this certainly gives me some concern.

Not acceptable in the modern Western civilization for sure but then again take a look at where you are.....not too much of the western civilization I see out there. Thank you for reporting your grievance, it needed to be told.
Hope you have better luck the rest of the way and please come back and give us a trip report when you return. That would give us all another opinion to make a decision from when we finally make it to Burma proper.

Aloha!

I am so sorry to hear that this happened to you. Of course it isn't ok that he wasn't able to fulfill his obligation to you. I do wonder what the whole story was. (And I agree with Filmwill, that I can't imagine MinThu being unconcerned about this, but I'm sure he didn't express it in a way that you would have expected.)

You said he was unable to guide you because he was "in tour guide school." I don't know just what this means except that when we were there in 2011, he had a new license on his horse cart. When we asked him about this he said that the government had started a new licensing program. MinThu's horsecart was handed down through his family from his grandfather. That was the traditional way people became horsecart drivers. Now the government is handing out licenses, which determines who can be a horsecart driver. And someone mentioned to me that the government was getting involved in licensing guides. People who had worked for years as a guide would not be allowed to continue without government certification. I know that a year or so ago, MinThu was required to go to Yangon (with little or no notice) for something in regard to becoming a licensed tour guide. So I'm guessing that this "tour guide school" is another step in the licensing process.

I hope the rest of your trip goes smoothly. On our first trip to Burma, we had the ballon ride cancelled twice. On our second trip we didn't even try!

I look forward to your trip report.

Aloha from Kauai!

Unfortunately, Losaltos, we had a similar experience with Min Thu when we were in Bagan in early December. We had booked two days with him many months before and had confirmed; he and his cousin/brother met us at the Bagan airport as arranged, and we agreed about our start time for the following morning. Unfortunately shortly after we started out the next morning, my husband was hit with a very bad case of turista, and we had to return to the hotel. I said that I'd go out with Min that afternoon, and he picked me up at the agreed upon time. we only had time to go to one temple, before we had to go to the office for Balloons Over Bagan to cancel my husband's ticket for the next morning. The office didn't open until 5:00 p.m. and the hotel, the Inn at Tharabar Gate, had told me that it would be best to go to the office in person to make sure the cancellation was handled correctly and that my ride stayed confirmed.--Unfortunately, and I know in the spirit of being helpful, Min insisted on calling our travel agent to have him take care of the cancellation. Their conversation was completely in Burmese, although I had repeated several times to be sure to say that I would be going. Well, you know what happened--we got to the B over B office and found out that both tickets had been cancelled and resold! It took an hour of being at the office and a lot more discussion in Burmese and English, but a switch was able to be arranged and a space for me reinstated. This wasn't Min Thu's fault, he was trying to be helpful--but it would have been wiser just to take me to the office as I requested and as the hotel concierge had advised. When he took me back to the hotel, I, of course, paid him for the full day--at which time he told me that he wouldn't be able to take us out in the morning as he had a "new customer" that he had to meet!! We weren't exactly old customers, and I was taken aback, but given my husband's precarious state (he slept the entire day, couldn't eat at all) I wasn't sure what the situation would be. I agreed to a pick up time for 3:30 the next afternoon, and Min Thu took us to two temples, gave us a pretty rote explanation of the difference between the various temples, and then spent the majority of the time on his cell phone. He was essentially uninterested in us or our interests. It was a serious disappointment and if I hadn't had the wonderful experience of the Balloons Over Bagan ride AND we hadn't known that we would be returning to Bagan with the Pandaw cruise, we would have been very out of sorts. Happily, when we came back, my husband was completely back to himself, and our Pandaw guide was wonderful. We saw a number of temples, saw Bagan at sunrise from the Irrawaddie and at sunset from the top of a different--and less crowded temple than the one we'd been at with Min Thu and had a terrific experience.

I completely sympathize with your being upset and disappointed. I've been delinquent about posting a trip report--and I, also, was hesitant to write about the very disappointing experience we had with Min Thu, but do feel an obligation to be honest about one's experiences. While we were out with him, he did talk about having taken the test to be qualified as an officially approved tour guide several times and not passed it. Perhaps the course he said he was taking was one to prepare for that test. No matter; he could have notified you in advance that he wouldn't be able to serve as your guide. I hope you found another and were able to fully enjoy the beauties of Bagan.

520, I'd be curious to know the price difference between Min Thu and your Pandaw guide.

For me, my expectations were simply based on cost. At his rate of $20 for a full day of touring, I wasn't expecting much more than that $20's worth. For that price, all I expected was a driver with a good grasp of the English language. And he definitely over-delivered in that and many other departments.

One problem may be that some folks her have read the various trip reports here about Min Thu and expected some sort of high-caliber, dynamic tour guide. Kathie's report in particular sticks out to me (if I recall correctly) reporting that he was a horse cart driver first and foremost and a tour guide secondly -- that he's a better match for folks who prefer to read up a bit first on what they're going to see on a given day rather than go in blindly.

So for us, our expectations were just that he'd get us from Point A to Point B and so he definitely did that and a heck of a lot more. He arranged many wonderful moments for us that we never even asked for and was able to communicate a ton of information that we could never have found in our guides. All in all, we were satisfied. But I understand he's not for everyone.

filmwill, I believe you missed the mark regarding 520's post. You write that your "expectations were just that he'd get us from Point A to Point B and so he definitely did that and a heck of a lot more." 520 writes that Min Thu didn't even do that, i.e., that she booked Min Thu in advance yet he bailed on her at the last minute in order to go work with some other "new customer." To me, that's not getting anyone from Point A to Point B, and this is the exact same problem that losaltos had with Min Thu.

We've been really looking forward to meeting Min Thu, and I hope it's not a situation where he's gotten too popular for his own good.

To bring this up to date: After MT canceled we got another driver outside the hotel, someone from MT's village, ands pent the day with him. When we met MT's friend he told us that MT would meet at a restaurant at noon. At 11:30 our driver called to tell him where to meet us and MT said that he could not come and that "if we wanted to speak with him" we could call him at 2:30. There was really nothing to say at that point, so we did not call him. We did, however, send an email to him saying that we were disappointed not to have met him and sad that he had cancelled without letting us know. It was a gentle email, but to the point. To date we have heard nothing from him and I doubt we ever will. Today we hired a car with AC (however lovely the horsecarts are, it is very ennervating to drive all day in 104 degree heat!) and went to four more payas plus some lacquerware shops...then lunch outside at Green Elephant. All in all a nice time in Bagan despite the canceled balloon and MT's MIA status. But boy is is HOT!!!!

How did I miss the mark? He got *us* from Point A to Point B and didn't dump *us* for new customers. That was my experience -- and that of other posters here. Some folks have had good experiences and apparently others not.

Am I not allowed to report my experiences as well? I guess only the negative ones are allowed, then? My entire post, if you care to re-read, was about my experience and my expectations.

He certainly may be much busier than normal. I doubt he has the wherewithal to manage a busy schedule. Again I defer to the fact the for $20 we certainly weren't expecting much. He's certainly not hiring a secretary anytime soon. I think it's worth the flip of the coin for the money you pay. If you want more security, go with a higher-end option.

I believe there is a solution to the problem of Min Thu's not showing up for his commitments.... He should not make "firm" commitments. If he is honest with his clients when booking them and tells them that he will try to be available to them, but may not be able to for various reasons, then the client can determine if he/she wants to accept this. I believe based on Min Thu's reputation, that most people would accept this type of tentative "reservation", hoping it would work out, but not being totally disappointed if it did not.

Also, I'm just wondering how some of the posters would feel if they made a reservation at a Hyatt Hotel for a vacation and when you showed up you were told you that they did not have room for you because they overbooked, but you could stay at a Motel 6 around the corner. Any disappointment? To me Min Thu's behavior is similar, and i don't care whether he is charging $20 or $200 dollars an hour, it is not acceptable behavior. Again, I like Min Thu, and I thought his guiding was exceptional. But what is wrong is wrong. And standing upp clients is wrong.

To Min Thu - welcome to the modern Western world and standard. Less than a year after the sanction against your country is lifted you are now personally black listed.

Cest la vie!

What an extreme statement. No one has blacklisted Min Thu.

>>When he took me back to the hotel, I, of course, paid him for the full day--at which time he told me that he wouldn't be able to take us out in the morning ...<<

>>all we had to do was to ask our hotel in the morning to arrange it for us. We paid $15 to the driver + tip ..l<<

>>At his rate of $20 for a full day of touring, I wasn't expecting much more than that $20's worth.<<

So, if you get a driver at the last minute then it is $15 but if you book in advance then it is $20. I guess that is understandable. I could see charging a premium price for an advance booking given the risk that the tourist would be a no-show.

There have been a few comments about the expectations of Western tourists.

What would the expectations be of Burmese who had agreed to the premium price and actually showed up and paid it for one day? Would the expectation of the Burmese be that the driver would show up the next day? on time? Would Burmese customers be understanding or disappointed at being abandoned at the last minute for a new customer?

Seems like there is no point in recommending a certain driver or booking one in advance if the expectations should be so low.

If you apply a Western standard to that $20/day rate then it is not much money and not much should be expected.

What is $20 worth to a horse card driver in Burma? This is a country where a skilled laborer earns $34/month and a low-level civil service job pays less than that.

Wow.

There is a lot going on here. As I said before, I think it is not ok for Min Thu to make commitments and not be able to fulfill them. But we also don't know the whole story. A westerner would be more forthcoming with why they couldn't make it. From my observations and experience, that is not the Burmese way.

We found Min Thu to be exceptionally well informed - his library of books on Buddhism, Buddhist Arts and iconography rivals ours. We know a lot about the topic, and wished for someone who could give us more depth to what we already knew about the temples at Bagan. We did not expect to find someone like that and we certainly did not expect to find a horsecart driver who was so well-informed. MinThu was a gem we stumbled across. We had a marvelous three days with him our first trip and another two our second trip. Some others here have reported similar experiences, Robbie and Jules come to mind.

Part of what we are running up against is differing expectations. Some of you may remember a big brouhaha a number of years ago about a guide in Siem Reap. Someone had a great experience with him, recommend him, and then as too many people made "reservations" with him, he was unable to accommodate them, so gave them to other guides. He felt he'd done his job - got them a guide, but people were livid that they weren't getting "the one." From all accounts, he was mystified by people's reactions. This situation, of course, is not an exact parallel, but is related, I think.

If someone just wants a horsecart driver, I wouldn't recommend they contact MinThu. There are plenty of available horsecart drivers, any of whom can take you from temple to temple, get the keys to the locked temples, give a rudimentary explanation of what you are seeing. There is no question that MinThu has been overwhelmed by the demand for his services - that has been the case for a couple of years.

Shelly, as a seasoned traveler, I'm sure you have had instances (as we have all had) when the Hyatt didn't have a room for you despite your reservation, and, as per their policy, they put you up in another hotel for free. Or the airlines overbooked and had to put you on another flight. As travelers, we are accustomed to these things happening. We don't like it, but we know it happens and we know what recourse we do (or don't) have.

MinThu is operating in a much less developed country than the guide in Siem Reap. There has not been an organized network of guides where he can just refer you on to someone else if he cannot make it for some reason. And of course, there are not the resources of a Hyatt to send you to another hotel or the airline to rebook you. It sounds like MinThu offered to get a substitute, and did. That was probably his equivalent (given available resources) of the rebooked flight.

So I think that in addition to the issue of MinThu not being able to fulfill a commitment he made we have a number of cultural and resource-related issues that made this more difficult.

Let me add as an aside about the Balloons Over Bagan flight, and MinThu calling the travel agent when Tharbar gate said to go to the Balloons Over Bagan Office - from our experience, MinThu made the right call. After our first BoB flight was cancelled, we called the BoB office, couldn't get any satisfaction, so went to the office. Basically, because we had booked through an agent, BoB wouldn't deal with us. Our agent did refund our money so it all got taken care of, but talking with BoB was not the way to go.

firmwill: "How did I miss the mark? He got *us* from Point A to Point B and didn't dump *us* for new customers. That was my experience -- and that of other posters here. "

Put simply, you have belittled and scolded two different posters for expecting too much when each poster's primary complaint was that he didn't get them from Point A to Point B. (e.g., "Keep in mind that you're not dealing with Butterfield & Robinson here.") That's how you missed the mark.

In contast, Kathie and shelleyk's posts on this thread have been very helpful. They have detailed their outstanding personal experiences with Min Thu, while giving a fair and objective assessment of Min Thu's unacceptable behavior toward other travelers.

I find myself thinking about all the various guides/drivers/etc who have been recommended here and how it always seems to come to this. There was the guide in Siem Reap, then the intertwined stories of Ratt and Tong, now MinThu. All got overwhelmed by the demand for their services.

Some have survived - Ratt, for instance, though we don't often hear about here on Fodors anymore. Others still collect both comments on how wonderful they are and how awful they are - Tong, for example. Tong has a stable of drivers and guides she gives work to. Some visitors are angry that she promises to guide them, then someone else shows up. Others are happy with the guide she has assigned them. A number of times, the new driver/guide has told people that Tong is in the hospital, but then they run into her with others groups of visitors. And everyone knows she has hundreds of unread emails. In spite of this, Tong has built a big business and people continue to book with her, yet her reputation has suffered.

So many people want to go with the driver/guide someone else had a good experience with, but sometimes this creates problems for the person being recommended. Marmot points out that there are literally hundreds of very good drivers/guides in Bali, it's sort of silly to think that you HAVE to go with Putu.

I can't help but feel that those of us who have recommended particular drivers or guides bear some responsibility for all this. Someone like MinThu who has been a horse cart driver for so many (lean) years suddenly has people from all over the world contacting him. I'm sure it is hard to say "no" when the memory of having no customers for weeks on end during the slow times is so fresh.

It's clear that there have been a number of different experiences with Min Thu, and expectations always play into one's experience. We had looked forward to having Min Thu as our guide--not just as a horse cart driver, and were surprised at his canceling so casually, but really more disappointed at his general attitude for that very brief time when we did get to go to the temples. Instead of taking us to some of the lesser known ones , which is specifically what we'd requested since we'd be returning with the Pandaw cruise, he started to take us to the large one just outside the Tharabar Gate; we'd already gone there on our own; and so it went--with hisspending quite a bit of time on his cell phone while taking us to two temples and not really telling us very much that we hadn't read on our own. Will, I'd been preparing for our trip for about a year,had done quite a bit of research, but also remembered that it'd been suggested just to let Min Thu choose the temples. That made sense to us. We weren't expecting a dynamic tour guide. Rather, I was expecting someone like the wonderful Pao guides we'd had at Kakku and Lake Inle, who were very attentive and caring--and fun. Min Thu certainly tried to be helpful when my husband got ill and got us back to the hotel as quickly as possible, and I'm sure he had the best of intentions with the Balloons Over Bagan call. Kathie, we HAD to go the BOB office in order to turn in my husband's ticket so it couldn't be used-- they already had resold it--and mine as well. Our refund didn't come until we returned to Yangon, and yes, BOB had to speak to our travel agent, but all that was handled --again--at the BOB office, and they were very pleasant and helpful and certainly more than willing to deal with me and expected to as they needed to have the ticket(s) returned. It was an unfortunate mix-up in all respects, but it did work out. There was a waiting list of about 30 people for the ticket(s) and they resold it for about $50 more than what I'd paid--AND my place was reinstated!

My memory, Will, is that you got very upset when there was a mix-up with Santa Maria about your BOB tickets. I believe you expressed great disappointment and irritation when it looked as if you might not be able to have that experience despite having booked it well in advance and weren't quite prepared to go with the flow. So much of a trip/travel can be about expectations. Most of the posters here put in a great deal of time, thought, care and expense into preparing for their trips. I'm not sure what purpose is served by dismissing someone's disappointment when a reservation isn't held, or a booking disregarded or suggesting that they have unrealistic expectations and are perhaps, too Western in their behavior and cultural understanding--or lack thereof. I think most of the posters on the Asia forum are veteran travelers and are looking for and open to new experiences and cultures. In other words, they're travelers rather than tourists.

Aside from Min Thu's rather cavalier cancellation, every reservation, booking, and plan went exactly as arranged. The Burmese may have different cultural and resource issues, but for the most part the warmth, gracious spirit and very responsible behavior we encountered throughout our trip was very special.

My memory is that we paid 20,000 Kyat ($22) per day for Min Thu's service--we only paid for a half-day the second day; whatever the fee was for our Pandaw guide, Daniel, it was included in the cost of our ten-day Pandaw cruise. He was the guide for the entire cruise, and he was extraordinary. His breadth and depth of knowledge about art, architecture, politics, religion, music, food and many other things, combined with his warmth, charm, openness, and great spirit was exceptional. We've never been on a cruise before--or really any kind of tour, and felt so lucky that it worked out so well--and so much of that was because Daniel was a truly caring person.

Agree, 520. I *was* upset. I paid over $500 for the Balloons Over Bagan experience. A far cry from a horse cart ride. There's hundreds of horse cart drivers in Bagan. There's one balloon ride--and a fleeting moment to do it in. Not the best comparison.

Maybe that's the real issue. People are expecting a BoB-level experience with Min Thu. Let's all agree: he's not that, nor does he claim to be. A full service tour guide like the one you describe, 520, is usually something folks pay a premium for. So maybe expectations should be level set about Min Thu in general.

No one is disputing that he shouldn't have dumped anyone or flaked on bookings. But, as I'll state for the 10th, time, for ME, it's about expectation (despite what Holier Than Thou, Esq. may say, I actually am allowed to express my opinion on here, last time I checked.) I don't expect a whole heck of a lot for dirt cheap. Expectation goes up with price for me...not everyone, apparently. Would I have been pissed if it happened to me? For sure...for 10 minutes until I walked down to the front desk and got on with my vacation. That's just me.

Anyone comparing a $20 guide to the experience booking a room at a Hyatt -- sorry, that's kind of a stretch. A better comparison: if I had booked a Motel 6 for $50/night I'd expect just about what I'm paying for. If I booked the Mandarin Oriental for $600/night, I'd expect a whole hell of a lot more. Min Thu is the hostel in that situation. And from my backpacking days, I was lucky to get a room when I arrived at one of those and considering it a score to have gotten such a cheap deal.

Maybe the issue is that we've set Min Thu up as a full-service, professional guide somehow based on our experiences with him here?

Look, I don't want to get into a catfight with y'all, so I best just drop the subject completely. Too many panties in a twist.

Don't understand what money has to do with any of this. I can be more disappointed by a $10 per hour babysitter failing to show, or sending a sub, than by a $1000 per hour lawyer doing the same.

If Min Thu finds out that a baby sitter in the US makes $10 an hour he will probably change his job!

He can charge extra for bringing his horse cart.

Hanuman, 555!

Marija, you got it! It really doesn't have to do with the money--when it looked as if I'd lost the chance to have the BOB experience, the money was going to be refunded; that wasn't what I was concerned about.

Nor was it Min Thu's small fee. It's about an attitude and responsibility in observing an agreement. What I believe Losaltos was expressing was a justified disappointment in someone's behavior who had come with strong references. And, yes, I think Kathie makes an essential point that Min Thus has probably been overwhelmed--and become somewhat heady with his recent success--and, of course, is hesitant to turn anyone down because of having had a lifetime, really, of great difficulty. I hope he'll learn that not keeping his commitments could be harmful to his business. One of the reasons I'd been hesitant to post anything about our experience is because I didn't want to harm his business. When Losaltos posted her experience, and I remembered that another Fodorite had, also, had a similar experience, I decided to post ours.

Enough said.

>>Thank you for reporting your grievance, it needed to be told.<<

I agree with ht. That applies to the posts by losaltos as well as the posts by 520.

Well, Minthu just emailed me to bail on us next week. At least he told us in advance. He offered his brother's services for the 2.5 days we are there. Should we accept this, or just find a different horse driver? It seems that you can't reach lots of places by car and that it wouldn't be a good idea to go by car. Let me know your thoughts.

P.S. to my previous post. We are staying in New Bagan. If we should take a horse cart, is it harder to get one from New Bagan and are we better off taking a taxi into old Bagan to find one?

Sorry to hear that, but as you wrote, at least he gave you advanced notice so you can do some alternative planning. Based on my experience last year, I think it would be easier for you to get a horsecart from in front of the Tharbar Gate Hotel in Old Bagan, than in New Bagan. Most of the old temples are in or close to Old Bagan, and in the March heat, I would not want to ride in a horse cart an extra half hour to get from New Bagan to Old Bagan to begin my sightseeing. Perhaps you could split your time between an air conditioned car and a horsecart. You are correct that there are some temples that are only accessible by horse cart.

As far as a substitute for Min Thu, I think the people who used Min Thu's brother were satisfied with him. I also remember that on Trip Advisor several people mentioned horse cart drivers, other than Min Thu, with whom they had a good experience. Maybe you could post there and see if you can get the name or contact of a recommended horse cart diver. If not, bring a guide book with you which will give you a general idea of what the temple's architectural features are. Hope you Have a wonderful trip despite this.

I asked minthu if he had any recs for another horse guy and he said he can send a friend. Would you go this way or take a random horse guy? I'm inclined to go with minthu's friend.

When we visited Bagan in July, we had booked Min Thu for 4 days. We ended up doing car trips with his brother/cousin (who we called Joe) for 2 of the days. We had a really great time with both of them so I wouldn't hesitate at all going. But do check on whether the time would be horse cart or car.

All: I thought I would send an update on all this now that I am somewhere with good wifi access. I did get an email about two days after MT failed to show. I had sent him one explaining that we were disappointed and that if he wanted to protect his great reputation, he needed to communicate better with his clients. (No Will I was not patronizing....) He responded with an apology and a "thanks for sharing your learning" message. He said he wanted to become a good tour guide and the information was helpful. I like to think that our experience -- perhaps combined with disappointment felt and expressed by others -- has contirubted to the fact that he actually gave a heads-up to other clients about needing to cancel his services. In the end I hopes his reputation will be enhanced, not damaged.

I'm sorry, did I say you were patronizing?

I don't like the cheap shot at Will.

Looks like you and Min Thu learned something about each others culture through this exchange. Thank you for sharing.

Aloha!