We just did our first trip to Japan in October, we had 17 nights in total and we spent 6 of them in Tokyo, though one was after arriving on a late afternoon flight and one was before departing on an early morning flight. And we split them two at the start and 4 at the end.

Whilst we didn't love Tokyo as much as Kyoto, in absolute terms, or some of the other destinations we visited, I am definitely glad we included it in our itinerary and gave it some time. There's a huge amount to see and do in Tokyo, we barely scratched the surface, and just like Kyoto, Osaka, Hiroshima and other cities, it's different to all the other places.

For sure, on a return trip, I'll spend less time in Tokyo and more elsewhere, but I don't regret including it for our first trip at all.

PS We're not big shoppers either. Not including browsing food markets (which I love), we spent perhaps two or three short sessions on shopping, one to find some baby gifts for a Japanophile friend expecting a baby soon after our trip, one to find me a hat and a couple of 5 minute stops to look for different flavour kit kats.

Tokyo is one of my favorite cities in the world - almost like entering another dimension. The food is amazing, the design is cutting edge, and the ancient coexists effortlessly with science fiction modern. Try to set up a business meeting with someone in your field for added insight.

This piece by Pico Iyer captures Tokyo's spirit perfectly:

http://mg.co.za/article/2010-10-22-found-in-translation-an-insiders-guide-to-tokyo

Tokyo was not my favorite destination in Japan, but I wouldn't have missed it for the world! I thought it fascinating, and such a contrast to the other places I had seen! (I concentrated on more "traditional' sites during my time in Japan, and even while in Tokyo, I skewed my time toward the traditional.) It has some remarkable modern architecture, some great museums, and some lovely gardens, so you should be able to find things that you enjoy.

It's obviously your choice, but I think your trip to Japan would be incomplete without a few days in Tokyo. And you DO have the time for it. (Even though you can't see everything on any trip, no matter how long.)

My first trip to Japan was just Tokyo with a day trip to Kamakura - it has many wonderful museums and that is what I did mostly - there are still old-fashioned parts of it such as the area I stayed - Yanaka - plus just so much to see - I really couldn't imagine not stopping there on your first trip....

I didn't care for Tokyo. Of course, wrestling with the metro system didn't help, but I'm not a shopper either. I much preferred the other places I visited in Japan, which I hope to revisit. For more see http://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/trying-tokyo/

ShelleyK, just for an idea, my itinerary was as follows:
2 nights Tokyo, 2 nights Takayama (for festival), 1 night Nara, 5 nights Kyoto, 1 night Koyasan, 1 night Osaka, 1 night Miyajima, 4 nights Tokyo.
I could easily have spent another few days in and near Kyoto...
I'm currently posting reviews of the trip, though many more to come. To see them listed together, visit http://www.kaveyeats.com/tag/japan
(The first post I made is a more detailed itinerary, with a long list of the top web resources I used to plan the trip).

Tokyo is a superb place to enjoy Japanese food, experience daily urban life in Japan, marvel at Japanese technology and transportation, enjoy numerous parks and gardens, and much more. Tokyo is surely one of the world's great cities. Still, it is a city, and someone who doesn't much enjoy cities would likely not enjoy Tokyo all that much.

Given Shelley's summary of her likes and dislikes, I can certainly imagine her enjoying many aspects of Tokyo. She could easily spend a couple of days exploring the various gardens/parks alone -- the one in Shinjuku, the one by Shiodome, the one near Tokyo Dome, for example. I think she'd enjoy the outdoor Ameyoko market (which includes produce, fish, and hard goods), and possibly areas like the kitchen goods/knives shopping area near Asakusa. (Sorry, I can't speak much to the museum aspect.)

Maybe I'd ask Shelley to imagine that she had never been to the U.S., and that she was about to take her first trip here. Would she want to spend a few days in New York City, or would she want to spend her full trip in park-like places? While the analogy is far from perfect, I believe that the answer would go a long way to informing her decision.

Not a bad analogy. I don't much care for New York either, although I like Washington, Chicago, San Francisco. And London.

I spent my first 19 years living in one of the NYC boroughs and I spend quite a lot of time in Manhattan. so it's hard to know how I would view it as a visitor. I loved it for the shows and museums, but other than that I had no strong feelings one way or the other. I agree with thursdaysd about liking the cities she mentioned better than NYC, but maybe that is because I spent only about a week in each, visiting the best those cities had to offer.

Thank you all for your input. I'm still deliberating.

Kavey-I took a look at your blog and thought the photos were wonderful. It gives me something to look forward, especially the photos of the food and markets.

Our first trip to Japan was for three nights in Tokyo on the end of a 4 week SE Asia trip. I was hooked. Skipping one of the most vibrant cities in the world is beyond my scope of thinking. It would be like visiting France but skipping Paris. Like visiting Italy and skipping Roma, visiting Egypt and skipping Cairo(not a bad idea to skip both right now) but you get the idea. In Tokyo you will see the engine that drives Japan. The ultra modern and sheik blend in with the ancient heritage and culture. I could blindfold you and take you to a park in Tokyo that when you uncover your eyes you would think someone had placed you back in time a couple of centuries to the days of old Japan only to turn the corner and see the massive and very modern Tokyo Dome right at the edge of the park.

The Japanese pride themselves in striving for the best...."ichiban".....number one. That is what every business and motivated person in Japan strives for and in Tokyo, everyone wants to be ichiban. The best and freshest fish, the best steak, the best view with the best fish and steak. The most authentic fish and steak and so on and on.

Lovely parks, fantastic landscaped gardens, sprawling metropolis, a foodies favorite dream, electronics heaven, a cosplayers capitol and a historians playground are a few words I think of when thinking of one of my favorite cities in the world, Tokyo.

Aloha!

P.S. The Tokyo Metro system is really a great system and should be learned before arriving in Tokyo. You can get a lot of great information on the Japan Guide dot com site and from here:

http://www.tokyometro.jp/en/

Hi Shelley, as you know I'm following your posts as we are planning our trip. Interestingly, as you are deciding whether to reduce or cut Tokyo, we have opted to add a day. So we will start our trip with 4 nights in Tokyo.

As things stand with us right now, we have 5 nights in Tokyo, including 3 full days in the city and one day trip to Nikko. Based on the above comments, I think i will leave it that way. From what part of your trip did you take the extra night in Tokyo

We have decided not to stay in Nara, but do it as a day trip from Kyoto. So we eliminated the two nights in Nara and added one night to Tokyo and one to Kyoto.

shelleyk,

If you are interested in museums I think these are a few of the lesser known ones in Tokyo we enjoyed on our last visit.

Meiji University Museum
The crime & punishment part of this museum is a real eye opener, follow second link to get a good preview slideshow

http://www.meiji.ac.jp/cip/english/institute/museum.html

http://www.meiji.ac.jp/museum/criminal/keijizufu/index_en.html

Amuse Museum - Asakusa , adjacent to Senso -Ji Temple.
Great exhibit of "Boro" with displays you can touch and wear
The rooftop is a great view as well

http://www.amusemuseum.com/english/


Mitsubishi Ichigokan Museum
We saw a great exhibit of the art of Katagami and Japonisme in this beautifully done brick building near the center of Tokyo

http://mimt.jp/english/

We also did the art walk in Roppongi that includes the National Art Center, the Mori Museum and the Suntory Museum. The buildings themselves are amazing architecturally.

http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/attractions/facilities/heart_art/museums_roppongi.html

In the past we've caught a Alphonse Mucha Exhibition in Ueno and a Vermeer exhibition in Osaka
Being major cities, they get some major worldwide exhibits.

Don't know your dates but check "Time Out " Tokyo for current listings

http://www.timeout.jp/en/tokyo

And for the many obscure museums this old web site gives an idea, check for current conditions,

http://web.archive.org/web/20061229103143/http://www.quirkyjapan.or.tv/museums.html

I have to get back to visit the Button Museum, always leave something for next time
Have Fun !

HT, you are quite the ambassador! But you're right, Tokyo is truly the epicenter of Japan providing context to everywhere else.

kali, Excellent list of museums - Amuse is a must-do. Will have to go back to check out the others.

If a visitor to the USA Northeast was arriving in NYC, would you advise them to skip it?

After three full days in Tokyo I would be ready to leave (and come back again some day for another dose). Absolutely would spend the night in Nikko and go to Takayama from there.

mrwunrfl - I was looking to see how to get to Takayama from Nikko - it doesn't look easy - do you have a good idea? I was going to suggest it until I looked at hyperdia and got a dizzy spell....lol....

Shelley, that's very kind of you to say. I found the food markets thrilling -- my favourite was probably the Takayama morning market but also enjoyed Nishiki in Kyoto and the outer market area at Tsukiji in Tokyo.
At the moment I'm posting a series of 6 posts about temples and shrines, but will go back to some food reviews following that.

My husband and I went to a Japanese yakitori restaurant in London last night (and I went to a ramen place with a girl friend the night before). I'm still so obsessed with Japan.

And we've agreed over last couple of days that we're going to return, either this autumn or next spring.

Happy days!

Mara it would be mostly the same route but simpler: Nikko- Utsunomiya- Tokyo- Nagoya- Takayama. Simpler because it eliminates the backtracking to Shinjuku-ku. It would save at least an hour (including 30 minutes travel time and 30 minutes extra transfer time).

Day trip: 4 hours on day 1, 5 hours day 2
Overnite: 2 hours on day 1, 6.5 hours day 2

mrwunrfl - I think I was looking at the route too late in the evening. True it isn't that bad - I have done much more complicated transfers. And ShelleyK could send her luggage from Tokyo to Takayama and just take a small bag to Nikko.

However, I don't think staying overnight at Nikko would add anything of value, imo as nothing much, I don't think, will be open at night - tourist sites that is. When I stayed over two nights, I didn't leave until around 1 pm of the last day as I was going to Tokyo and went to Toshogu that morning. ShelleyK would need to leave early in the am to make her transfer to Takayama.....just my opinion obviously.

Yep, more to do in Tokyo at night than in Nikko.

Mara, you spent a full day and a morning in Nikko. Would you agree with saying "Nikko wo minakereba 'kekko' to iu na" or not?

はい(Yes)、mrwunrfl　さん(san).....lol.....I actually stayed two nights ( one full and two half days) and didn't get past Lake Chuzenji.....there is quite a bit to see there and as kalihiwai2 said on the other Japan trip thread it was a theme trip - Tokugawa/Edo period history.....

> I don't think staying overnight at Nikko would add anything of value

When I visited, I found two specific advantages to an overnight in Nikko:

1) I was able to start visiting it as soon as I got up the next day. I'm not an early morning person, so that was, for me, a real advantage. I couldn't have seen everything I wanted to see in the area if I had started the day in Tokyo.

2) I was on a decidedly limited budget when I traveled, and I was able to stay in a place in Nikko that was much nicer than anything I identified at a similar price in Tokyo.

We spent two nights in Nikko and thought it "magnificent" as the saying goes......especially the temples and Chuzenji-ko. Also allowed us enough time to see the sights and not have to rush.

Aloha!

We are in Japan now. We just spent 3 days in Tokyo and are now spending time with relatives close to Iwakuni. We plan to spend 3 more days on our way out. My favorite thing we did was go to the fish market and watch the auction of these giant tuna and other fish. You have to be at the visitors office at 4:30am or you might not get a spot. Only 120 people are allowed each day. The trains don't start until 5:00am so we had to take a taxi about 7 miles at the bargain price of ¥4640. After the auction we ate at this little diner in the market area with the locals. We did it when we got there while we were still on Florida time. Couldn't wear the shorts I brought as it was only 39F degrees outside. Just a thought, don't know how adventurist you are.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and input. I really appreciate all of the helpful advice you have generously provided. It has given me a lot to think about. At this point in the tweaking of my itinerary, I am leaning toward cutting a night (my 5th night) in Tokyo in favor of spending that night in Matsumoto.

Our day would look something like this: In the morning, we would take an early train to Nikko, spend the day there, and then instead of returning to Tokyo, we would take a 5:30PM train which would get us into Matsumoto at 10 PM. We'd spend the night near the train station, see the castle and environs the next morning, and move on to Takayama in the afternooon. The train ride will require 4.5 hours and 3 changes of trains, but I think we can do this, and I think I would prefer that to returning to Tokyo that night, only to have to get up very early the next morning to get an 8am train to Matsumoto,

Or leave Nikko at 4:43, arrive Matsumoto 8:30PM, less than 4 hours and just in time for dinner. Only 2 train changes on the trip to Takayama.

> Or leave Nikko at 4:43

Could be a good idea, or - depending on what you want to see and experience in Nikko - could leave you with less time that you might want there. Is spending the prior night in Nikko an option?

mrwunrfl-I checked hyperdia and did not see a train leaving for Matsumoto that leaves at 4:43 and gets in at 8:30. Could you please check again and let me know if you find it? That would be doable because we are traveling in Nov. and all of the sites in Nikko close at 4PM with the last entrance at 3:30, so it's not as if we could see anything additional if we stayed beyond 4PM.

kja-Going to Nikko the night before is an option as there is a 5:08 train that gets in at 6;48. Leaving Tokyo that night would put us outside our 7 day JR pass, but I could just pay the one way fare to Nikko which is about 5500Y. My main concern is that it would necessitate a change to a new hotel two nights in a row (Nikko and the Matsumoto) I wouldn't mind this if there were a hotel at Nikko station, but I don't think I would want to try to find anything away from the station in the dark. Do you know of a hotel at the station?

As far as what we want to see in Nikko, I would be happy to see the 3 main temples and shrines that are on the combination ticket. I have a concerns about Toshugu Shrine main gate being covered in scaffolding in Nov., and this actually was causing me to reconsider going to Nikko at all. The project on the gate begins in the spring, so I thought I would ask for feedback on how that is impacting people's experiences, as I get closer to Nov.

Thank you both for your thoughtful ides.

http://tinyurl.com/c4lsu4o

remember to use the winter dates like Feb rather than Sept for more accurate times as the winter train schedules have not yet been released by JR. Also filter out the private line trains to avoid confusing schedules with Tobu trains involved. Taxi's are always there at a train station when the train arrives big town or(especially)small in Japan.

Aloha!

real small towns may necessitate a small wait till the taxi returns from a fare. Outside JR Nikko is a covered taxi stand just for that purpose IIRC.

Aloha!

http://tinyurl.com/c3o73jn

I re-created that 4:43 train schedule that mrwunfrl found above and made a link to the hyperdia page...hope that helps....

A slightly off-topic question. Where do I find the DEFINITIVE Japan train schedule (routes, departure/arrival times, etc)? Is that under the Japanguide link?

Mara, yes different starting times will bring up different schedules but should only be used as an estimated time as they will be traveling in November 2013 whose schedules are yet to be published.

MinnBeef, no, you will find them under the JR company that handles the routes you need such as JR East and JR West or JR Kyushu, etc.

http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/timetables/index.html

http://www.westjr.co.jp/global/en/travel-information/timetable/

http://www.jrkyushu.co.jp/english/time_table/time_table.html

http://www2.jrhokkaido.co.jp/global/english/ttable/index.html

Aloha!

http://www.jr-shikoku.co.jp/global/en/dia-dia.htm

Thanks for that link, Mara.

HT-I was looking at the Sept 2013 schedule, thinking that was closest to Nov., and that is why I could not find the train mrw alluded to. Thanks for the tip to look under the winter schedule. I understand that this will only give me an estimate. Do you know when the schedule for Nov. is usually posted?

Winter schedule usually out like the fall hotel prices after spring(May)IIRC.

Aloha!

> Where do I find the DEFINITIVE Japan train schedule (routes, departure/arrival times, etc)? ...
> you will find them under the JR company that handles the routes you need

Fascinating! I thought hyperdia was the best resource for info about trains in Japan....

I think the train schedules are redone every quarter. In my experience the regular trains don't change that much - maybe a minute - but there are some seasonal trains as well. I also make up my projected schedule a couple of months in advance but then check/update everything on my spreadsheet before I leave....

Hyperdia is the best resource imo as far as having all the info - JR and private lines - in one place, in English and fairly easy to work with, but the railroad company itself, as ht said, would be definitive.....

Some people like jorudan better but unless it has changed recently hyperdia has a lot more info. I like the way you can get the train interval and station listing on hyperdia - I don't think jorudan has that...

yes, I think hyperdia is the best overall too, I guess I got caught up in the words DEFINITIVE and Japan Guide dot com. I also dis like the Jourdan site.

I haven't figured out how to use the hyperdia interval timetable section yet and I have seen it used on the JG forum site before. It will give all interval times of trains in a given route. Maybe mrw can figure or has used it before.....

http://www.hyperdia.com/cgi/en/intervaltime.html

Aloha!

I wonder if its because I turned off my Java last month?

Oh, I just figured it out. Inside the hyperdia link there is a link for interval timetables next to station link. Live and learn.

Aloha!

Maybe we are talking about two different things, ht. I mean the interval timetable you can click on underneath the train listed in the results that a hyperdia search gives you....and next to it is train timetable that gives you all the stations and times for that particular train.....clicking on them open another window with my Firefox browser....I think I turned off my Java as well after some warning I got on cnet or somewhere...lol...

The 4:43 PM departure suggestion is mostly about getting to Matsumoto before the restaurants close while spending as much time in Nikko as possible.

Actually, I would consider leaving Nikko earlier. The route has a connection in Nagano. That provides an opportunity to visit the wonderful, (your adjective here), Zenkoji:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e6001.html

One day I was leaving Matsumoto and headed to Tokyo. I decided to go via Nagano. The L'ex ride from Matsumoto to Nagano had some nice scenery, it goes along a ridge and has a great view of Nagano below in a broad valley. I easily found a bus headed to Zenkoji - it is just a few minutes ride. I walked back to Nagano station.

>>kja-Going to Nikko the night before is an option as there is a 5:08 train that gets in at 6;48. Leaving Tokyo that night would put us outside our 7 day JR pass, but I could just pay the one way fare to Nikko which is about 5500Y<<

You could do the trip for half that price and 15-50 minutes more time by using Tobu instead of JR. As low as 1400 yen from Asakusa.

You can, of course, leave Tokyo earlier than 5PM.

Or a day trip. Or skip Nikko. Check the "Interval timetable" of the Shinjuku-Matsumoto Ltd Exp to see why you might prefer the Super Axusa to the Azusa.

I was thinking of leaving for Nikko from Shinjuko stationfor 2 reasons. 1-So that the our Shinjuko hotel could hold our luggage while we did a little last minute sightseeing and 2- So we would not have to spend the time traveling to the Tobu Asukasa station from Shinjuku. I know I would be paying a premium of about $50 for this convenience.

However, if I wanted to leave for Nikko from the Tobu Asukasa station after doing some sightseeing in the Ueno/Asukasa area, where would a good place be to store our small overnight rollie (I will be sending our big one ahead to a future hotel). I would not want to drag it around with me to the Asukasa temple and the Tokyo Edo Museum which I plan to visit.

And I should add, I would not want to go back to our Shinjuko hotel to retrieve our overnight rollie.

they would have lockers available at the train stations either Shinjuku or Tobu Asukasa

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2274.html

HT, Mara and kja-

Thanks for the info re. hyperdia. I'll have to check that out as I finish planning my November itinerary. I'll certainly plan to post it as I get the draft finalized. I cannot wait for November to get here.

shelleyk-thanks for letting me take your thread off on a slight, temporary detour.

MB