Tibet route to Kyrgyzstan via Xinjiang?
Dec 9th, 2008, 08:50 AM
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Tibet route to Kyrgyzstan via Xinjiang?
Tibet route to Kyrgyzstan via Xinjiang?
I am planning a Tibet trip in late June/early July, and afterwards, (depending on what kind of Chinese visa I get in Kathmandu, or Lhasa), I'd like to continue into China proper, and visit Xinjiang, and maybe even Qinghai.
My question is what kind of transport is there from Lhasa to Xinjiang? What's the website for the Chinese train that goes from Lhasa north? Does it stop in Urumuqi, or do I have to backtrack through Xining?
Another question is what route do I take to enter Kyrgystan (from China)? I choose Kyrgyz because Canadians get visa on arrival. I am also interested in entering Kazakhstan from China, but then I need to pre-arrange a visa, but where in that part of Western China, I don't know.
Tajikistan also borders Xinjiang, but I am not sure if foriegners are allowed to cross here?
I am planning a Tibet trip in late June/early July, and afterwards, (depending on what kind of Chinese visa I get in Kathmandu, or Lhasa), I'd like to continue into China proper, and visit Xinjiang, and maybe even Qinghai.
My question is what kind of transport is there from Lhasa to Xinjiang? What's the website for the Chinese train that goes from Lhasa north? Does it stop in Urumuqi, or do I have to backtrack through Xining?
Another question is what route do I take to enter Kyrgystan (from China)? I choose Kyrgyz because Canadians get visa on arrival. I am also interested in entering Kazakhstan from China, but then I need to pre-arrange a visa, but where in that part of Western China, I don't know.
Tajikistan also borders Xinjiang, but I am not sure if foriegners are allowed to cross here?
Dec 10th, 2008, 07:05 AM
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Before anybody takes the trouble to reply to this they may care to have a look at sandy's record (click on his or her blue name above).
Sandy has been posting in Fodor's and other forums with many, many questions about different parts of the world. Some people even think the questions are to help with the writing of a book.
You can make your own mind up.
Sandy has been posting in Fodor's and other forums with many, many questions about different parts of the world. Some people even think the questions are to help with the writing of a book.
You can make your own mind up.
Dec 10th, 2008, 07:25 AM
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Dec 10th, 2008, 07:45 AM
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This is, after all, a public forum with many readers to each response.
There's a lot to tackle here, but concisely:
The first problem will be with moving on from Tibet if you're on a visa from Kathmandu. These visas are tightly restricted and your chances of being permitted to continue to elsewhere in China are slim. If your final destination is Central Asia you should a) acquire your visa elsewhere, b) enter China elsewhere, and c) enter Tibet from elsewhere in China.
Lhasa to Xinjiang is gruelling and problematic, the rules regarding it tending to vary at short notice. But you'll probably have to organise the rental of a vehicle by grouping with others of similar interest and using a Lhasa-based travel agency capable of dealing with the paperwork. It won't be cheap, either.
Overall you'll be better to enter Tibet from Chengdu, exit to Dunhuang (a serious bus journey in its own right), and carry on northwest from there.
I think you'll find Canadians only get Kyrgyz visas on arrival if they fly into Bishkek, and not via any other port.
The issuing of Central Asian visas in Urumqi is a very variable business. When I last looked into it there was more cooperation between the CIS members than currently and the Kazakhs were dealing with Kyrgyz visas there, and distinctly unhelpful. Times may well have changed for the better, but this is one area of the world where you want to arrive with the right paperwork as much as possible.
From Kashgar you can take one of two routes overland into Kyrgyzstan, of which the Irkeshtam-Osh route is by far the easiest (although I have succeeded via the Torugart Pass to Bishkek route in the past). You'll definitely need to have a Kyrgyz visa in your hand already to succeed on either route. Public transport will at best get you to the border and you walk over or negotiate with trucks to give you a lift. The through bus from Kashgar to Bishkek (via Torugart) is not open to foreigners (or hasn't been in the past) but the customs people run their own bus service 100km from their post to the Torugart Pass for an exorbitant price. You'll be able to pick up the latest news on all this at the backpacker hang-outs in Kashgar. The Irkeshtam route will be the best bet. When last checked, however, there were no visa services in Kashgar. You're going to need to deal with your Central Asian visas somewhere larger (London? Beijing?) before getting close.
A Kazakh transit visa may well be available in Urumqi, but you may be asked for documentation supporting your onward travel. A longer visa may require an invitation. And you may have to wait a few days. Again, you'd be better to sort all this out in advance, but then there are two train services a week from Urumqi to Almaty, and express buses six days a week. So with a visa access is much easier than to Kyrgyzstan. If you show up in Urumqi with a Kyrgyzstan visa in your passport you may well find it far easier to get the Kazakh transit visa. A willingness to bribe may also help, and watch out for the rapacious customs people on the train--thieves on wheels.
There is no overland crossing to Takjikistan that's open to foreign nationals, I believe. Your other available crossing is to Pakistan via the Karakoram Highway over the highest paved border crossing in the world. There are daily buses for most of the year (and you can charter minibuses with Pakistani traders when not), and the trip is the most spectacular border crossing you'll ever make. Again, no visas at the border, so you'll need to plan ahead. But tourist visas to Pakistan are available merely for a fee and the asking.
Peter N-H
There's a lot to tackle here, but concisely:
The first problem will be with moving on from Tibet if you're on a visa from Kathmandu. These visas are tightly restricted and your chances of being permitted to continue to elsewhere in China are slim. If your final destination is Central Asia you should a) acquire your visa elsewhere, b) enter China elsewhere, and c) enter Tibet from elsewhere in China.
Lhasa to Xinjiang is gruelling and problematic, the rules regarding it tending to vary at short notice. But you'll probably have to organise the rental of a vehicle by grouping with others of similar interest and using a Lhasa-based travel agency capable of dealing with the paperwork. It won't be cheap, either.
Overall you'll be better to enter Tibet from Chengdu, exit to Dunhuang (a serious bus journey in its own right), and carry on northwest from there.
I think you'll find Canadians only get Kyrgyz visas on arrival if they fly into Bishkek, and not via any other port.
The issuing of Central Asian visas in Urumqi is a very variable business. When I last looked into it there was more cooperation between the CIS members than currently and the Kazakhs were dealing with Kyrgyz visas there, and distinctly unhelpful. Times may well have changed for the better, but this is one area of the world where you want to arrive with the right paperwork as much as possible.
From Kashgar you can take one of two routes overland into Kyrgyzstan, of which the Irkeshtam-Osh route is by far the easiest (although I have succeeded via the Torugart Pass to Bishkek route in the past). You'll definitely need to have a Kyrgyz visa in your hand already to succeed on either route. Public transport will at best get you to the border and you walk over or negotiate with trucks to give you a lift. The through bus from Kashgar to Bishkek (via Torugart) is not open to foreigners (or hasn't been in the past) but the customs people run their own bus service 100km from their post to the Torugart Pass for an exorbitant price. You'll be able to pick up the latest news on all this at the backpacker hang-outs in Kashgar. The Irkeshtam route will be the best bet. When last checked, however, there were no visa services in Kashgar. You're going to need to deal with your Central Asian visas somewhere larger (London? Beijing?) before getting close.
A Kazakh transit visa may well be available in Urumqi, but you may be asked for documentation supporting your onward travel. A longer visa may require an invitation. And you may have to wait a few days. Again, you'd be better to sort all this out in advance, but then there are two train services a week from Urumqi to Almaty, and express buses six days a week. So with a visa access is much easier than to Kyrgyzstan. If you show up in Urumqi with a Kyrgyzstan visa in your passport you may well find it far easier to get the Kazakh transit visa. A willingness to bribe may also help, and watch out for the rapacious customs people on the train--thieves on wheels.
There is no overland crossing to Takjikistan that's open to foreign nationals, I believe. Your other available crossing is to Pakistan via the Karakoram Highway over the highest paved border crossing in the world. There are daily buses for most of the year (and you can charter minibuses with Pakistani traders when not), and the trip is the most spectacular border crossing you'll ever make. Again, no visas at the border, so you'll need to plan ahead. But tourist visas to Pakistan are available merely for a fee and the asking.
Peter N-H
Dec 10th, 2008, 07:52 AM
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I forgot to add that on the Torugart route the Kyrgyz are now requiring that all foreigners entering the border area must have an official guide. So you might be turned back there now, or not allowed to enter the border area by the Chinese unless you have a telex or similar confirming that such a guide has been booked and is waiting. If you want to make this really simple you pay a small fortune to CITS in Kashgar to make the booking and drive you up to the border.
I talked my way onto the customs service bus, negotiated for a lift over the pass, and haggled with private cars on the other side. But it's hairy as you are left with few transport options, although there's primitive accommodation there if you want to wait for a decent price for transport the next day. And as I said, this is probably illegal now (although that doesn't mean it's impossible, either).
Peter N-H
I talked my way onto the customs service bus, negotiated for a lift over the pass, and haggled with private cars on the other side. But it's hairy as you are left with few transport options, although there's primitive accommodation there if you want to wait for a decent price for transport the next day. And as I said, this is probably illegal now (although that doesn't mean it's impossible, either).
Peter N-H
Dec 10th, 2008, 08:57 AM
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Peter,
In addition to Fodor's and Traveller's Point this person, under a variety of names, has frequently been posting <b>identical</b> questions on a wide range of topics connected with many parts of the world on Virtual Tourist, Thorn Tree and Flyer Talk forums plus others for all I know.
You are probably wasting your time in giving considered answers and merely encouraging the OP to waste the time of the many others who may be conned into giving help.
Michael
In addition to Fodor's and Traveller's Point this person, under a variety of names, has frequently been posting <b>identical</b> questions on a wide range of topics connected with many parts of the world on Virtual Tourist, Thorn Tree and Flyer Talk forums plus others for all I know.
You are probably wasting your time in giving considered answers and merely encouraging the OP to waste the time of the many others who may be conned into giving help.
Michael
Dec 10th, 2008, 09:59 AM
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I believe it is inappropriate both to address other individuals on a public forum like this, and to spend time here discussing other posters, which is both impertinent and entirely off-topic. So I'll post on this subject precisely once:
I am not interested in others' views of whoever the OP may be, and on whether this is a genuine request for information or not. I am not interested in the mob mentality that easily surfaces on the Europe section of this board and on many others, full of bile and little else, nor do I regard group abuse of someone as evidence of fault in that person. Witch hunts are no more attractive in digital form than they were in the days of ducking stools. While trolls are not to be encouraged, I can see no evidence of anything but simple requests for information here.
I do not see any problem with posting the same query in multiple locations. Given the emptiness and inaccuracy of many responses, especially those made entirely without factual content and merely because the respondent wishes to hear the sound of his or her own voice, or made in an attempt to demonstrate that a particular site is the private sandbox of a certain in-crowd, or merely made to demonstrate assumed superiority, or simply to be smart-alec, posting queries in several places seems a wise policy. If anything the responses to the queries already given here seem to demonstrate that.
I would object if I detected an overt commercial purpose here, such as if this was a guide or travel company or commercial website attempting to garner income by pretending to be helpful, but I do not detect one. I also note that in posting the information I do on Fodor's I am already giving it away to anyone who cares to copy and paste it elsewhere (as often happens) as well as to Fodor's itself, which I believe reserves the right to use it in print and elsewhere. In short, if you post helpful and knowledgeable material on such a public forum, you can expect to be exploited commercially whether you like it or not. But there seems to be no hard evidence that this is the purpose of the original post. Impertinent speculation does not amount to evidence.
But even supposing the OP's intentions were to be entirely dishonest, the main point is that this is a public forum, and conversations here are not private, nor person-to-person, but person-to-group. The questions asked here are worth asking, the OP is not the only person asking them, and most importantly of all, not the only person reading the responses: many hundreds of others may do so both now and following future searches of the Fodor's website for information. In fact the forum could do with more postings of this kind, and less person-to-person chit-chat, in-jokes, preening, competition, one-liners, and general discussion of others rather than of the facts of travel in Asia.
The responses made, therefore, are with the larger audience in mind, as all postings here should be. And it can be quite certain that it is responses containing concrete information, rather than speculation about the purposes, intentions of other posters, that will continue to be useful to readers who follow, regardless of the intentions of the original posting. I am not, therefore, wasting my time any more than when I respond to any other posting (and if I am it's my time to waste), and nor is anyone else who may be able to improve on my contribution.
I suggest that this discussion is taken back to its topic, which is Napal-Tibet-Xinjiang-Central Asia travel. I, for one, will not contribute further in this thread on any other topic.
Peter N-H
I am not interested in others' views of whoever the OP may be, and on whether this is a genuine request for information or not. I am not interested in the mob mentality that easily surfaces on the Europe section of this board and on many others, full of bile and little else, nor do I regard group abuse of someone as evidence of fault in that person. Witch hunts are no more attractive in digital form than they were in the days of ducking stools. While trolls are not to be encouraged, I can see no evidence of anything but simple requests for information here.
I do not see any problem with posting the same query in multiple locations. Given the emptiness and inaccuracy of many responses, especially those made entirely without factual content and merely because the respondent wishes to hear the sound of his or her own voice, or made in an attempt to demonstrate that a particular site is the private sandbox of a certain in-crowd, or merely made to demonstrate assumed superiority, or simply to be smart-alec, posting queries in several places seems a wise policy. If anything the responses to the queries already given here seem to demonstrate that.
I would object if I detected an overt commercial purpose here, such as if this was a guide or travel company or commercial website attempting to garner income by pretending to be helpful, but I do not detect one. I also note that in posting the information I do on Fodor's I am already giving it away to anyone who cares to copy and paste it elsewhere (as often happens) as well as to Fodor's itself, which I believe reserves the right to use it in print and elsewhere. In short, if you post helpful and knowledgeable material on such a public forum, you can expect to be exploited commercially whether you like it or not. But there seems to be no hard evidence that this is the purpose of the original post. Impertinent speculation does not amount to evidence.
But even supposing the OP's intentions were to be entirely dishonest, the main point is that this is a public forum, and conversations here are not private, nor person-to-person, but person-to-group. The questions asked here are worth asking, the OP is not the only person asking them, and most importantly of all, not the only person reading the responses: many hundreds of others may do so both now and following future searches of the Fodor's website for information. In fact the forum could do with more postings of this kind, and less person-to-person chit-chat, in-jokes, preening, competition, one-liners, and general discussion of others rather than of the facts of travel in Asia.
The responses made, therefore, are with the larger audience in mind, as all postings here should be. And it can be quite certain that it is responses containing concrete information, rather than speculation about the purposes, intentions of other posters, that will continue to be useful to readers who follow, regardless of the intentions of the original posting. I am not, therefore, wasting my time any more than when I respond to any other posting (and if I am it's my time to waste), and nor is anyone else who may be able to improve on my contribution.
I suggest that this discussion is taken back to its topic, which is Napal-Tibet-Xinjiang-Central Asia travel. I, for one, will not contribute further in this thread on any other topic.
Peter N-H
Dec 10th, 2008, 10:30 AM
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> My question is what kind of transport is there from Lhasa to Xinjiang? What's the website for the Chinese train that goes from Lhasa north? Does it stop in Urumuqi, or do I have to backtrack through Xining?
Omitted to deal with this. There's no reliable rail timetable for China on-line, but there are daily early-morning trains from Lhasa to Beijing, taking just over 24 hours to reach Xining, where you would change for Urumqi (and changing again at Lanzhou gives you more choice of trains). No back-tracking here: that's the most direct route.
Peter N-H
Omitted to deal with this. There's no reliable rail timetable for China on-line, but there are daily early-morning trains from Lhasa to Beijing, taking just over 24 hours to reach Xining, where you would change for Urumqi (and changing again at Lanzhou gives you more choice of trains). No back-tracking here: that's the most direct route.
Peter N-H
Dec 10th, 2008, 08:31 PM
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Hey Peter - it's dogster here.
You know - that same dogster that comes in to your posts and says 'Wow! What a wealth of knowledge that is Peter N-H guy has! - how impressive.' THAT dogster. Not Satan.
So when dogster, your friend, says, 'Hey Peter, I think you're about to step in a puddle! Watch out!' then the appropriate response might be..
'Oh, thanks, mate. I'll step in it just the same - but thanks for caring...'
rather than ramming your fist in his face and hurling polite, pissant abuse randomly in his direction. I didn't care for it. Pick your target more carefully in future, please.
You know - that same dogster that comes in to your posts and says 'Wow! What a wealth of knowledge that is Peter N-H guy has! - how impressive.' THAT dogster. Not Satan.
So when dogster, your friend, says, 'Hey Peter, I think you're about to step in a puddle! Watch out!' then the appropriate response might be..
'Oh, thanks, mate. I'll step in it just the same - but thanks for caring...'
rather than ramming your fist in his face and hurling polite, pissant abuse randomly in his direction. I didn't care for it. Pick your target more carefully in future, please.
Dec 11th, 2008, 03:53 AM
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I agree with Peter. He is right in posting helpful information, and pointing out those who take up space on my posts with non-sense about how I am posting on other forums, and SO WHAT? I will post on 1000 forums if I could, because as Peter said, a lot of answers are bad, wrong, or useless, like a lot of the replies on this forum. I would say less than 25% of the posts regarding my questions have even been remotely helpful, except for Peter's, and a few more on other forums.
The whole lot of you are jealous, confrontational, and bored out of your minds.
Now bugger off, and let Peter and I have our conversation about Border crossings
The whole lot of you are jealous, confrontational, and bored out of your minds.
Now bugger off, and let Peter and I have our conversation about Border crossings
Dec 11th, 2008, 04:09 AM
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How wonderful to see you in here Sandy. Yes, please do continue. I'm thrilled to make your acquaintance! It's like meeting a legend. You have quite a following.
And, to be told to 'bugger off' by Sandy456 AND Peter N-H in the same post is akin to being pissed on by royalty.
I'm proud. Wet but proud.
Now I'll bugger off - but just before I go... what happened in Norway? Where are you now? And can I have your autograph?
And, to be told to 'bugger off' by Sandy456 AND Peter N-H in the same post is akin to being pissed on by royalty.
I'm proud. Wet but proud.
Now I'll bugger off - but just before I go... what happened in Norway? Where are you now? And can I have your autograph?
Dec 11th, 2008, 04:22 AM
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Can true nomads (Sandy's own term for herself from the Norway thread) use computer travel forums for help?
Wouldn't they talk to locals as they travel about in the true spirit of being a nomad? This is pretty high tech planning IMO.
Wouldn't they talk to locals as they travel about in the true spirit of being a nomad? This is pretty high tech planning IMO.
Dec 11th, 2008, 11:06 AM
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Jed,
I'm rather surprised anyone answered. Until this thread I seem to have been the only person ever to ask a question specifically about Kyrgyzstan. This thread might even boost its visitor numbers (which would be good, because it's a nice country with nice people).
I'm rather surprised anyone answered. Until this thread I seem to have been the only person ever to ask a question specifically about Kyrgyzstan. This thread might even boost its visitor numbers (which would be good, because it's a nice country with nice people).
Dec 11th, 2008, 03:42 PM
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Chinese rail authority does have up-to-date online searchable timetables. But it's in Chinese only:
http://www.shike.org.cn/
I also use the train search function on 3rd party sites like this one, again in Chinese:
http://oklx.com/cn/train/
The only English site that I've used is this one. But it may not be totally up-to-date, but at least it gives you an idea of what the approximate times are among major stations:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/
The rail from Lhasa connects to the rest of the Chinese rail system at Lanzhou. From there, you'll connect to another train to Urumqi.
If you want to go by road, you have to go west from Lhasa and then north and enter Xijiang from the far western part of that autonomous region; or follow the train route to Gomud in Qinghai first, then go north. Really can't go straight north from Lhasa. Too many mountains and desert and no habitants.
http://www.shike.org.cn/
I also use the train search function on 3rd party sites like this one, again in Chinese:
http://oklx.com/cn/train/
The only English site that I've used is this one. But it may not be totally up-to-date, but at least it gives you an idea of what the approximate times are among major stations:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/
The rail from Lhasa connects to the rest of the Chinese rail system at Lanzhou. From there, you'll connect to another train to Urumqi.
If you want to go by road, you have to go west from Lhasa and then north and enter Xijiang from the far western part of that autonomous region; or follow the train route to Gomud in Qinghai first, then go north. Really can't go straight north from Lhasa. Too many mountains and desert and no habitants.
Dec 11th, 2008, 04:26 PM
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> Chinese rail authority does have up-to-date online searchable timetables. But it's in Chinese only:
Hence not mentioned earlier. This one doesn't even take pinyin, so users have to be able both to read and to enter Chinese characters in order to be able to interrogate the database. Useful for those who can, though.
> or follow the train route to Gomud in Qinghai first, then go north. Really can't go straight north from Lhasa
Nevertheless, with the odd wiggle, that is what the road and the bus services to Dunhuang through Goldmud have been doing for a few decades, long before the railway line showed up. But these days anyone sane takes the train.
Peter N-H
Hence not mentioned earlier. This one doesn't even take pinyin, so users have to be able both to read and to enter Chinese characters in order to be able to interrogate the database. Useful for those who can, though.
> or follow the train route to Gomud in Qinghai first, then go north. Really can't go straight north from Lhasa
Nevertheless, with the odd wiggle, that is what the road and the bus services to Dunhuang through Goldmud have been doing for a few decades, long before the railway line showed up. But these days anyone sane takes the train.
Peter N-H
Dec 11th, 2008, 04:41 PM
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The station-to-station search function on oklx.com does have pinyin:
http://oklx.com/cn/train/search_station.aspx
The results page is Chinese only, but one can see the train numbers and times.
http://oklx.com/cn/train/search_station.aspx
The results page is Chinese only, but one can see the train numbers and times.
