Suzanna

I just started to plan a trip to Indochina for November-mid December 2015. I would like to spend a total of 30 days to contain the cost of the trip and the cost of travel insurance (jumps up when one travels for more than 30 days); also usually we get tired after 30 days.

The two of us would like to get a “taste” of a few countries as we do not think that we will return. A few notes about our preferences: we are in our upper 60s, not looking for adventure, trakking and do not assume to see “everything” and just run from place to place. We like to walk in cities, see nature (the easy way), see whatever is specific to places we visit, some art, culture, history, local markets, etc. We don’t have the ambition to see ALL temples, ruins and do not like large group tours. Since I suffer when it is hot, I would like to stay in the North and avoid indoor spaces where it is stuffy (vans, trains, etc. without fresh air and A/C). While we are not looking for any luxuries, we do like comfortable, clean, quiet particularly for sleeping, in a safe area.

Here is a first cut of the itinerary, some of it dependent on availability of flights with airlines rated high for safety.

- D1, D2- flight from West Coast to Hong Kong
- D3, D4, D5 - 3 days in Hong Kong
- D6 - flight from Hong Kong to Chiang Mai w. Hong Kong Express Airways Limited (or Dragon Air)
- D7, D8, D9 - Chiang Mai; would love to have a Sunday included for the market and maybe catch a festival that I believe might be in November
- D10 - drive from Chaing Mai to Lao border
- D11, D12 - Luang Say cruise w. sleep over in Pakbeng to Luang Prabang
- D13, D14, D15, D16 - Luang Prabang; festival in Prabang?
- D17 - flight from Luang Prabang to Hanoi w. Vietnam Air
- D18, D19, D20 - Hanoi
- D21, D22 - Halong Bay
- D23, D24, D25 - Sapa w. Livitrans or Fansipan; would like to go to the one of the Saturday or Sunday markets in the neighboring towns
- D26 - Hanoi
- D27 - flight from Hanoi to Hong Kong w. Vietnam Air
- D28, D29 - Hong Kong
- D30 - flight to the US

Depending on the place for departure/arrival for the transpacific flight, we might need an overnight in LA, SF or Vancouver and that could take away another day.

I have some concerns regarding the following, based on preliminary reading:
- some people stated that the Luang Say cruise was boring and that last year in December it was freezing; neither the boat nor the hotels were prepared and people got sick …. Obviously nobody can predict the weather.
- the trains to Sapa have mixed comments (hard to sleep due to noise, short night, additional transfer from train to hotel, etc.). There are no controllable thermostats in the cabins and the windows cannot be open, so I do not know how stuffy and warm it gets…
- are Sapa and Halong Bay enjoyable choices between the end of November and mid-December?

I was considering reversing the order of the stops (Hong Kong- Hanoi-Luang Prabang- Chiang Mai- Hong Kong) to catch less warm weather in Chiang Mai and warmer weather in Sapa and Halong Bay but it seems based on current flight options that this would not be possible. If we could do this, if we really wanted to buy something in Chiang Mai, we could do it without having to carry it all along.

I’d appreciate your comments and suggestions re. itinerary and allocated days/pace, based on our interests, as above. I would like to make sure that this once in a lifetime trip will be a memorable one (with pleasant memories).

Kathie

I think your pacing is fine. The problem may be weather for Halong Bay and Sapa likely (more an issue than Laos). But no one can predict that, though there is historical data www.weatherbase.com If you are concerned about it being cold, start in early November. The other places in the area I would recommend (Angkor Wat, Bangkok) may be too hot for you.

Craig

I think this is a trip you should not do. Southeast Asia is hot, unless you spend all of your time in northern Vietnam, which you could do in 2 weeks or less. The temperatures may be "mild" in the other areas (or not) depending on your luck. You seem to have too many constraints to attempt this trip and appreciate all that this part of the world has to offer. Go somewhere else.

sartoric

I think your plan looks pretty good so far.

I can't speak about Hong Kong, but we love Chiang Mai and are going back in November 2014. There are some pleasant day trips, easy to organise in CM, to places like Doi Inthanon NP for a nature fix.
The festival you might be thinking of is Loy Krathong usually early November, this year 5th - 8th.

The shopping is great, and Thai Post could be used to send stuff home easily and reasonably.

We took the Luang Say cruise in Feb 2014, and really enjoyed it. They have woollen ponchos for early morning cold, wear layers and you should be fine. The lodge at Pak Beng was just beautiful, the food was great, and a local dance troupe performed and encouraged audience participation !

Luang Prabang is perfect for some downtime, just strolling and exploring the alleys.

We also loved Hanoi in late October a few years ago. Halong Bay was unreal, the scenery sublime. Perhaps discuss your tour options with your hotel in Hanoi, and choose an upmarket junk, the food will be better (ours was very very good, and we had all types of seafood).

Sapa is so worth a visit. There are some upmarket train options you could investigate, Victoria something, and I would next time pay for all four berths so as not to share with strangers. It's true that you might not get much sleep, the soft sleepers are very hard. I guess it depends on your level of padding !

I found Sapa quite cold in Oct, but then I get cold at about 20 C.

tripplanner001

I echo what others have already said regarding heat and SE Asia. Based upon your requirements and the time of year, you may want to check out Japan and perhaps Korea, which can easily be done with HK if you want to see the city. However be prepared for higher prices than SE Asia.

Suzanna

I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I didn't know until now about the weatherbase site, Kathie. It seems that unless I am unlucky, the weather in all my selected locations will be pleasant (and in some places quite cool) by my standards. I will take the chance. Thanks for the suggested day trips and the info re. reasonable Thai Post option + sharing your experiences, Sartoric. I will now focus on each location on the itinerary and read about on the forum.

rhkkmk

it is not always the heat that is the problem, it is the very high humidity.

Suzanna

I might have to put up with it and hope for the best...

sartoric

Suzanna, there's a website - vietnamonline which might prove useful.

According to them, November is one of the better months for Hanoi and areas north.
I found it by googling "best time to visit Vietnam".

Travelfish.org is another good site for Asian exploration.

Don't be put off by the climate, you are going at one of the coolest possible times.
There's little better time of year if you want to see these places.

Suzanna

Thanks again. I am working on some open items that might impact the high level scheduling (e.g. finding out if the Luang Say cruise runs every day, if the Livitrans or Fansipan trains run every night back and forth between Hanoi and Sapa, the cost of these night trains, etc.). I knew about Travelfish, I find it a very useful website.

If you were in Hanoi and from there went on a two day cruise to Halong Bay, would you consider coming back from Halong Bay and back-to-back, take the night train on the same day (instead of sleeping another night in Hanoi)? Is that too much for a day?

sartoric

We booked the Luang Say cruise first, and then worked the rest of the trip details around it, as we couldn't get our first choice date. That was about 4 months before the trip, so you have more time.

The drive from Halong Bay back to Hanoi takes about four hours. Our cruise included an early lunch on the second day, so we got back to Hanoi around 5.00 pm. The train leaves at around 8.00 pm, so yes, you could do it on the same day.

Craig

Livitrans and Fansipan are actually cars on the same train that runs every night. The timing of a return from a Halong Bay cruise and heading to Sapa would work with a dinner break in between.

Suzanna

Thanks, this is very helpful for my planning.

I sent an Email to Vietnam Railways for info and they make it quite confusing. They listed all trains/carriages w. some schedules and they said: "All private carriages listed are linked to a Vietnam Railways operated locomotive and other normal wagons except Victoria and Livitrans who are on another train.". Based on this I assumed that there might be more than one train....

crellston

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm#Hanoi-to-Lao-Cain provides some good info on train options to Sapa

Craig

crellston's link explains it better than I did as there are actually several trains. This will take you directly to the schedules for Hanoi-Sapa (Lao Cai) and what cars are on what train:

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm#Hanoi-to-Lao-Cai

Suzanna

What an excellent website! Thanks to both of you. I can now a clear understanding of everything related to traveling by train and the Sapa-Hanoi trains. Now back to planning.

Suzanna

I searched all over and could not find the hours for the Sunday, Bac Ha market. If any of you know it, please let me know.

Hanuman

Not sure about this particular market but most of the similar type of markets around S.E. Asia open at first light and will start to slow down around noon time.

crellston

I think the market "officially" opens at around 6.00am and, as mentioned above, will start to slow down towards noon. If going with your own guide or by yourself, I would aim to get there before 9 when tour buses seem to arrive. Well worth the early start. We will be revisiting Ba Ha in December and are planning to try an incorporate it into our travels further north to Ha Giang.
May even see you there!

Suzanna

Thanks. Probably we will go then to Bac Ha directly from the train in Lao Cai. It will get us there at the best time and save some driving time (no need to come back from Sapa though Lao Cai just for the market). And this being a small world, we might bump into each other, crellston.

I just looked at the current schedules for trains at the seat61 website and based on it I will probably use SP1/SP2 trains, as they get to Lao Cai at 5:30 (if the schedule doesn't change for 2015). The ride to Bac Ha takes about 1.5 hours. I do not know (yet) at what time it gets light in November/December, but arriving to Bac Ha around 7 am should be hopefully OK. SP1 & SP2 however, gets back to Hanoi at 4:10 which is very early... I do not know what one does at that time in Hanoi, unless early checkin is available at the hotel....