m_v

Hello everyone,

These forums have been super-helpful in the past when planning a trip, so I hope I can get some help once again (I already got lots of information here - thanks for the great Borneo post Kathie!).

My future husband and would like to go to Borneo for our honeymoon this summer.
We can leave any time after the wedding (June 27th) and have 3 weeks.

Here is a bit about us:
We are in our early 30s, and mostly travel to see nature.
On our previous trips, we would normally "rough it" most of the time and stay at relatively budget accomodations, but a this time we would like to splurge for a few nights on a nice hotel. We would also like to stay away from the pre-packaged tours and super-touristy spots (but that's sometimes hard, as they are popular for a reason).

We are mostly interested in seeing animals in their natural habitat. We would also like to do some hiking (mt. kinabalu perhaps?).
We also definitely want it to be packed with stuff to do, we're not much into sitting around (although a few days would be nice).

So here are my questions (in a very jumbled order):

1) It would be great if someone can suggest an itinerary for Borneo and area that would include spending a few days at a nice hotel on the beach, eating some good food, hiking in the jungle, and most importantly seeing lots of animals? This would probably answer most of my questions below as well

2) Can someone suggest where else would be good to go in the area to see more animals, different cultures (singapore, vietnam...)? I don't think we can spend 3 weeks in Borneo alone.

3) Can someone suggest a good "splurge" (either in Borneo or around) - nice hotel, beach, good food?

4) Best areas for wildlife spotting/jungle hikes? Best budget to mid-range places to stay?

5) Best way to book a guide/tour/car to take us on the hikes (prepackaged tours I found online here in Canada just didn't excite me that much/were too expensive)

6) Best/cheapest place to fly to/from Borneo (we are in Toronto)

7) Approximately how much do internal flights cost within Borneo (or which airline)?

8) Can someone recommend a local tourist agency that can maybe help me out with all this?

I know this is a lot of stuff, but even answers to a few questions would be helpful.

Thanks a million,
M

Kathie

You don't need an agent (local or otherwise) to make your arrangements.

Do you have the Lonely Planet book on Malaysia? If not, I recommend it. It will give more info than I can here.

As you would expect, my first recommendation is that you stay at the Borneo Rainforest Lodge for 3 nights. The experience there is unlike any other you will get in Borneo. The Danum Valley Conservation area is amazing. You'll do lots of hiking here. It's the best place to see orangutans in the wild. This will likely be your splurge, as it is expensive, but there is no comparable experience available. Are you interested in climbing Kinabalu? You might consider that. Or, go visit Kinabalu before going to the BRL. Once you've been in the Danum Valley, nothing holds a candle to it! To get to Kinabalu, just negotiate with a taxi driver in KK. No need to hire a car and driver.

You can opt for a few nights at the beach outside of KK if you like. Spend a coupe of days in/near KK, visit the market, go to Borneo Books, schedule a spa day when you get back from the BRL.

From KK, fly to Kuching (Malaysian Air). Kuching is quite charming, while KK is rather gritty. From Kuching, you can go to Bako which has some great hikes (unfortunately we didn't get there). There is a place to stay overnight nearby or maybe even in the park - rather primitive - it's listed in the LP guide.

For a real cultural experience, go to an Iban longhouse and stay overnight. Do not go to the Hilton's "longhouse." There is a row of shophouses next to the river. There are a number of family-owned companied there that will arrange a private visit for you to a longhouse. Many of the people who do this are Iban (or married to an Iban) and this will be a non-touristy experience. If you go with one of the big tour companies, it will be totally different. By the way, I have the name and cell phone number of a guy we met in Kuching who is married to an Iban woman. He was willing to take us to a longhouse for an overnight, but unfortunately, we only found him on our last day. If you want his name and cell number, let me know.

There are also nice beaches at Damai, about 30-45 minutes from Kuching.

You may wish to go somewhere else in Malaysia to finish up your three weeks, but do spend most of it in Borneo.

I don't know where Malaysian Air might fly to/from in Canada, but if you can get a RT ticket on Malaysian Air, you can get very cheap intra-Malaysia tickets Some times of the year they offer an airpass which can be a really good deal.

I'm sure I haven't answered everything, let me know what else you need to know.

What a great honeymoon!

TravelTwiddle

I suggest you spend 2 days in Kota Kinabalu, 3 days in Kinabalu Park, climbing Mt Kinabalu inclusive and perhaps 1-2 weeks based in Sandakan. The are lots of places to cover within Sandakan and if you can afford it, a few nights in Langkayan or Sipadan Island nearby should be the highlight. I've written a fair bit about that part of Borneo, read this http://outskirtoutreach.org/map-of-s...sandakan-side/. June would be peak period. It's best to start making decisions now.

m_v

Thanks Kathie and TT! That's lots of useful info!

I got the LP book on Borneo and it mentions something about it being complicated to book a hike up Mt. Kinabalu. Has anyone done it recently?

also, I would love to stay at a longhouse, but I'm not sure how that works. Are they everywhere? How do you know where to go? Is it safe? Kathie, if you can give me the name of your contact, that would be great.

I am surprised that we can just book all these things when we get there. When we went to Madagascar, we booked a driver from a locally run agency, but still booked him in advance, and that was great help. He had lots of tips on where to go, what to see, where to stay. So, Kathie, you think it's ok to book our hike on Kinabalu without having a pre-booked way of getting there?

Ok, I think that's it for now.

Thanks a lot again!

Kathie

All of this really is easily bookable once you get there. It isn't Madagascar! ;-)

I haven't climbed Kinabalu. If you just want to hike on Kinabalu, you simply get a taxi to take you to the park (use the guidebook to decide which trail you want) and have the taxi met you where you come out, If you want to climb Kinabalu, work with one of the many agencies in town (KK). I asked at my hotel for a driver they would recommend that I negotiate with to take us to Kinabalu. It was very easy.

The longhouses are in Sarawak. You would need to get a guide to take you there, and you'd need to be clear that you don't want to go as a part of a tour group. Is it safe? You may see shrunken heads in the longhouse, but the Iban haven't been headhunters for decades.

Here's the info on the guy I talked to about going to a longhouse: Jihey Ridup cell: 019-8393273 email jihey ridup at yahoo dot com (obviously, take out the spaces, etc)

By the way, when we were there, none of the taxis had meters, but the drivers all had consensus on what it should cost to go here or there. No bargaining was expected or necessary - so atypical of most of Asia!

TravelTwiddle

You can book Sabah and Sarawak's tours or hotels on the fly anytime BUT not during peak period June-Aug, especially Mt Kinabalu where beds and guides are hot commodity during this period.

I have climbed Mt Kinabalu 5 times and there's no way one can jazz up at the trail head and DIY the whole journey. The place is monopolized by one company, http://www.suterasanctuarylodges.com.my/, and it will make sure everyone is funneled to the same conveyor belt. I've written a fair bit on Mt Kinabalu here - http://outskirtoutreach.org/category...h-mt-kinabalu/. Yes, Mt Kinabalu is complicated and pricey, but it's still a great experience.

There are very few authentic longhouses left in Sarawak. If you have only 2-3 days to spare, tour operators would most probably have enough time to take you to disney-fied longhouses near Kuching, Miri, Bintulu, near towns. Nonetheless, these communities will make your stay memorable with the way of life in the countryside. Most longhouse stays are offered by Iban natives but don't be cowed if your tour operator suggest other tribes like Orang Ulu, Kelabit or Berawan. In my opinion, these communities live further upriver and will give one a better off-the-beaten-path experience.

If a real longhouse experience is what you are looking for, center your research on Mahakam river, Indonesian side of Borneo, but be prepared to forgo creature comfort.

m_v

Thanks for your input Kathie and TT!

I think we will book the hotels in advance and then ope to be able to get a tour guide from the hotel.

As far as Mt. Kinabalu goes, from what I've read here, we should book the lodging at least 3 months in advance, so as soon as we book our flight over and figure out the itinerary we will book that.

so, the more I read about Borneo, the more questions I have. I am really trying to come up with an itinerary that would allow us to see everything we want to see.

So here are my new questions - getting more specific

1. after climbing Mt. Kinabalu, is it hard to get to Poring hot springs? Can we just hope to get a taxi directly from Mt. Kinabalu?

2. after the hot springs, do people normally stay in the area (is there anything else to see?) or is it feasible to go to Sandakan from there?

3. How many days do we need in Sandakan? I want to see the orangs, but don't care much about diving.

4. After Sandakan, we wanted to go to the Danum valley - I read in the LP book that there is a bus going directly to Lahad Datu. Kathie, do you know if the BRL staff could pick us up there?

5. Now, Kathie, you made BRL sound absolutely amazing, but it's soooo expensive. Has anyone stayed at the Danum Valley Field Centre? Do they have guides there as well? Are there any other accomodation options in the area?

6. After the Danum valley, I guess we would have to fly back to KK, as it seems a bit isolated. From here, our itinerary is pretty open. Kuching is a possibility, as is Gunung Mulu NP. At the NP, I know the caves are the main attraction, but is the wildlife also good?

7. TT, I'm not sure we have time to go into the Indonesian part of Borneo. Everybody says that the longhouses are "disney-fied" as you put it, but is it possible to see a real longhouse without going so far into the indonesian territory?

8. Finally, I would love to see tarsiers, lorises ad langurs! After lemurs, tarsiers have to be the most awesome, cutest animals. Is there any way to see them without going to the Philipines? I know that the chances of seeing them in the wild are slim to none, so I would settle for a sanctuary. Any idea where we would have the best chance of seeing them?

I have about 10,000 more questions, but I'll stop right here

thanks a lot in advance!
m

Kathie

Let me try to answer some of these.

First, the BRL is the only accommodation available in the Danum Valley Conservation area. The LP talks about the Danum Valley Field Center, and, for a time (years ago), you could make special arrangements to stay there (very basic, no guides), but now only bona fide researchers can stay there. Being in the Danum Valley conservation area is so amazing - it has really been protected from development and intrusions of any kind.

The BRL staff will pick you up in Lahad Datu. They meet the planes from KK, and could arrange to meet your bus, I'm sure. It's part of your stay there.

I can't help you with Sandakan, as we opted not to go there.

Poring Hot Springs is on the slopes of Kinabalu. I would expect you could get a taxi to there. I don't know about accommodation - we visited as a part of a long day to Kinabalu Park.

There are a number of places to visit near Kuching where you can see wildlife, Bako is one of the parks, and we were sorry we didn't get there.

Not all of the longhouses are disney-fied. The ones that are parts of regular tour stops obviously are. I talked with several people in Kuching (one who lives there) who says it is possible to visit a traditional longhouse, you just have to know someone who will take you. Getting to the Indonesian side of Borneo is complicated in a number of ways, and you can get to longhouses on the Malaysian side that are not commercialized, though it may be a matter of luck in getting the right person to take you.

m_v

thanks Kathie!

So, we are now ready to book our flight. Any idea whether it is better to go through Singapore or KL?
We would like to spend a couple of days wherever we fly to, just to see the city. Which one has more to offer? And how expensive is Singapore compared with KL (since we are on a bit of a budget)?

Kathie

IMO, there is more to do in Singapore than in KL. But Singapore is more expensive than KL. The air connections from KL are more frequent, and you have a choice of Malaysian Air to KK or Air Asia, a budget airline.

TravelTwiddle

There's no need to overnight in Poring. It's just the hot spring and Rafflesia garden. Perhaps you could get the taxi to stopover Poring on your Kinabalu-Sandakan journey.

I reckon 3 days in Sandakan would be great for a nature lover who doesn't dive. I suggest these places ...
- Sepilok, Orang Utan of course
- Labuk Bay, proboscis langurs
- Kinabatangan river safari, possible sighting of pygmy elephants. An overnight stay in Bilit or Sukau is advisable.

Danum is a conservation area and they need to limit numbers of visitors to prevent disturbance to surrounding wildlife. However, BRL has also invested a lot of money for proper accommodation. So, it's only reasonable that they charge higher. Authentic ecotourism is always priced higher because to be ethical, a company has to pay a whole lot more to maintain its surroundings. Cheap lodges just flush sewage down the river but a good ecolodge treat refuse with expensive systems. Sorry if it sounds like I am giving you a lecture, I don't mean to. If you're looking for cheaper jungle stay, lodges along Lower Kinabatangan could be your answer. Google Sukau Tomanggong Lodge, Sukau Rainforest Lodge, The Last Frontier Lodge or Proboscis Lodge. But the surrounding forest is not as pristine as Danum I must warn you.

As Kathie wrote, you need to know the right locals to bring you to an authentic longhouse community but so far I have not seen any good non-touristy ones 2-3 hrs within Kuching. Your best bet for traditional longhouses in Malaysian Sarawak is rivermouth town Bintulu. You can arrange river tour to wooden longhouses located upriver.

Tarsiers, lemurs and lorises are nocturnal animals. You need a good local guide to help you spot them and expect to do some night jungle trekking. I'd say Danum would be a good place to see them.

Mitch04

The Pandaw has great cruises along Borneo's Rajang River starting around that time.

Check www.pandaw.com for cruise dates.

m_v

TravelTwiddle, love your suggestion to spend 3 days in Sandakan! I didn;t think that there was much to do, but it looks like it would be a great place for wildlife as well. BTW, your post on seeing orangs (on thorntree) was really helpful. I'll look at your post on Mt. Kinabalu.

the Kinabatabgan cruise also sounds like a good idea. Hopefully it's not as pricy as the one Mitch04 suggested It does look nice though...

As for the BRL, I am all for ecotourism - and I appreciate you pointing it out. I'm just not sure we can afford it, that's all. Perhaps we will look into something more affordable elsewhere.

Just one more question, I know someone mentioned that diving is good around Sandakan. Are the beaches nice as well? Are there any nice hotels there?
We are looking to spend a few days on a nice beach somewhere. I initially thought of going ot Kuching, but it doens't look that exciting. Maybe we should stick to KK and Sandakan?

janev

We stayed at http://www.kinabatangan-jungle-camp.com/ when we visited Sabah last in January last year. Robert Ching here is very knowledgable and you are taken by boat along the Kinabantangan to see different apes, proboscis etc. Pygmy elephants can be found here, but we weren't lucky enough to see them - so you have to come with open mind - wildlife here doesn't always appear as in a zoo! We had a very good time here and also did evening boat trips when you could see birds sleeping on branches - quite close up and very lovely. Lodges are simple but fine.
This is much cheaper than BRL - but we would have liked to go there too!
To get here we flew from Kota Kinabalu to Sandakan - then were picked up by Annie Chong (Robert's wife) and stayed overnight at http://www.sepilokforestedge.com/ - we went from here to see the orangutan at the reserve (you can walk there from Sepilok)- the next day Robert picked us up and took us to Kinabatangan - after two nights there we were taken back to Sandakan airport.

janev

Sorry - typo - its Robert Chong (not Ching).

TravelTwiddle

Over coastal Sandakan, I can only think of 2 spots for sea fun - Turtle island and Langkayan island. Both are 1hr boat ride from Sandakan. Most hotels in Sandakan have kiosks to book tours and overnight stays. Further down, near Semporna and Lahad Datu, islands like Sipadan, Mabul, Kapalai and Mataking are teeming with sealife. However, these islands are catered to upmarket divers and honeymooners.

For honeymoon beach stay, I think you should consider Nexus Karambunai. It's a resort snugged exclusively on a small rainforest draped peninsula.

m_v

thanks TT. Few more questions about Mt Kinabalu.

I was looking into booking the accommodations for the climb for Mt Kinabalu.I think we will go with the Timpohon trail as you said that it is shorter. As Sutera's lodges are quite pricy - how many nights is it necessary to stay there (I assume one for sure, but I'm not sure if we would have to stay there on the way down as well).
Is it possible to leave early enough from KK to get to the starting point for the hike by 10am?

Another logistic issue is our backpacks. As we would like to go from KK to Mt Kinabalu to Sandakan, we would have to bring all our stuff with us. Is it possible to leave the packs somewhere safe while we're hiking? Or is it better to leave them in KK and go back after the hike and do KK-Sandakan?

Finally, do you know of an online map of the trails (Timpohon and Mesilau) - I am a bit scared about the whole thing (especially the last bit that to me looks almost vertical) and would like to look at the trails to psych myself up

thanks a million!
m

TravelTwiddle

Sorry for the late reply. Just came back from holiday.

One only need 1 night in Sutera's lodge, the last place to pad before the summit. On day 2, most climbers would be able to reach the top and make it back to foothill by 1-2pm.

Luggage storage service is an alien concept in Malaysia (except pricey storage provided by upmarket hotels). Generally, travellers are expected to bring along everything. At best, you could book a hotel room in nearby Kinabalu Park or Kundasang hilltown, leave your stuffs in the room and just carry whatever you need for Mt Kinabalu climb.

Sorry I don't know of any online map for Timpohon but I can tell you the journey is about 8.75km uphill all the way. The last 2.75km from Sutera's Laban Rata is the toughest - but not "almost vertical". Tough in the sense that your body and brain will be deprived from oxygen. Every step will be heavy. Eating chocolate (for extra energy) and popping aspirins (for better blood flow) help.

You're young and I don't think it is going to be a problem making it to the summit. It's not a race, so go slow and enjoy some romantic moments along the trail with your hubby. If you have spare cash, hire porters to carry your bags. They make good conversation too.

TravelTwiddle

I forgot to mention this: It is possible to start very early from KK and make it to Timpohon entry point by 10am. Just remember to let your tour agent know because he/she has to arrange for your permits with park office.

m_v

Thanks TT! As always, great help!
We booked a room at Raban Lata, so it's going to happen one way or another! I am getting really excited - I sort of forgot about the wedding for a while and it's all been about the honeymoon

And, of course, I have more questions!
We have pretty much worked out our itinerary:

July 1 – arrive in KK

July 1-3 - KK resort (Nexus or Rasa Ria - still deciding....)

July 4-5 - Early taxi from KK to hike up Mount Kinabalu (the only day they had in a private, heated room at Laban Rata around this time was July 4th, so that determined the rest of our trip)

July 5 after the hike go to Sandakan

July 5-8 - Sandakan, Sepilok
-Sepilok Orangutan Rehab Centre
-Labuk Bay Proboscis Monkey Sanctuary

July 8-12 - Danum Valley - working on trying to get into the Danum Valley Field Centre

July 12 Lahad Datu-KK-Kuching

July 12-18 - Kuching (Permai Rainforest Resort - I hope...)

July 18-20 - Singapore (not sure where)

July 20 – go back to Toronto

My first question has to do with the last week that we for now have as spending in Kuching. I am not sure what we'll do in Kuching for 6 days. Would it be better to stay in the Sandakan/Lahad Datu area for a few more days?
TT, I like your idea of going on a Kinabatangan river safari. Is this doable from Sandakan?

Otherwise, we could go to the longhouses near Kuching, but since that can't be booked in advance, I'm a little hesitant to just book a hotel for, say, 3 nights, then hope we can get to the longhouses for a night or two.

Also, is it advisable to stay in Bako NP overnight (I mean, is it better than just going for day hikes)?

And finally, anyone stayed at Permai Rainforest Resort? The reviews on Tripadvisor are mixed (and I think people at tripadvisor have slightly higher expectations than I do ), but I think the treehouses look just perfect!

Thank you for your input, it's much appreciated!!!