I think Xi'an is worthwhile, but not just for the warriors (although I've seen them twice, I confess I wasn't overwhelmed). Aside from the town wall, and the Muslim quarter (which I suspect is much cleaned up since I last saw it), there is an atmospheric mosque, an atmospheric Taoist temple (of the Eight Great Immortals), two pagodas (Big and Little Goose) and a good museum. I have no idea what "better picture of China" you would get, however.

I would also urge you to reconsider the tour - do some searches here and you will find several people who have made successful solo trips, plus what to look out for if you insist on a tour. You aren't planning to go anywhere that is off the tourist trail.

Thanks thursdaysd, I just have read a lot about time wasted trying to get into the major sites, the vagaries of plane travel, and guides that aren't quite worth their salt. I think that a reputable tour company knows some of the tricks to avoid the crowds, can deal quickly with travel mishaps, and employs local guide who know their stuff. The big downside, of course, is cost...and I haven't nailed down yet how much more this is going to cost. Wild China offers private tours with local guides so we don't have to deal with a small group's needs. I'm hoping the end result won't be too expensive.

we are including xian for a couple of days... K insists, although i have my doubts

"employs local guide who know their stuff" - a knowledgeable former poster would say there is no such thing, and you're better off with a good guidebook. However, with a private tour you can presumably avoid the shopping ops and the dumbed-down food, provided you are crystal clear up-front (so that the missing kick-backs can be factored into the price...)

I personally think Xian has a lot to offer. Including, but not limited to the warriors. But it's one's decision what interest him or her. One thing you may consider, however, is to find and pay for your local guide at specific site, instead of using the tour group's. When my parents travel in China in tour groups (from Hong Kong), they often get their own private guides at the sites, who should know the place inside out. But of course, those who speak English may not be readily available. (My parents can understand and speak Putonghua).

I found a great deal to enjoy in Xi'an, including - but not limited to - the things thrusdaysd mentioned. I spent 4 days there and did not see everything I would have liked to see. For more information, you can check my very, very long trip report - just click on my name, and then search for the part on Xi'an (which starts about 1/3 of the way through).

Enjoy!

We only had two nights in Xi'an did not do everything we wanted to do..The Terra Cotta Army excavation is an incredible site, 200BC, every soldier is the dress of his rank, each with a different face.
Xi'an is the only city in China with intact city walls; Mao destroyed the others. And there are excellent museums such as Shaanxi and The Forest of Stele. The Wild Goose Pagoda is worthwhile too. If you have a chance to visit Xi'an I would
highly recommend you include it on your Chinese itinerary.

I guess the answer to the OP is that no, you shouldn't just skip Xian. But you should look at tours that don't just go to the warriors, but with visits to other sites in the city.

> I guess the answer to the OP is that no, you shouldn't just skip Xian. But you should look at tours that don't just go to the warriors, but with visits to other sites in the city.

Or, as thursdaysd suggested, travel independently. Just a thought!

Oh, and BTW, I don't think that Xi'an is the ONLY city in China with intact city walls - though it is one of very few such cities. For example, Pingyao are has intact city walls.

for "are has" please read "also has" - sorry!

Xian is a much bigger and significant city than Pingyao, of course.

Thanks everyone...I will take another look at Xian.

Personally I am not a big fan of the Warriors. I did not go there until my 4th trip to China.
About guides. The guides of tour companies are not any better than independent guides. Actually the best one with go on their own and leave tour companies. FYI, a licensed guide is a university graduate in tourism and to keep their license need to pass the exam every year. It includes presentations in english. The reason that good guides, once they have a good reputation, prefer to go on their own is that working for tour companies is not easy. For one thing they get no salary. They totally depend on tips and commissions on the compulsory shopping stops that you will have to endure. Actually, they sometimes have to bid, pay money, for the privilege of guiding some groups. How much they are willing to pay depends on the nationality as some tip better (Americans) while others shop a lot (Chinese). Tour companies have no special tricks to avoid crowds. It is all about the guide.

"is a university graduate in tourism and to keep their license need to pass the exam every year" - meaning they are taught the party line. And with internet censorship there's not a lot of opportunity to learn anything else.

So, JPDeM, are you advocating going with an independent licensed guide? If so, how do I find a good one?

Good question barefoot...we would be interested also.

On the subject of guides, I had four different guides on my tour in China. One was with us the whole time, then we also had local guides in Xi'an, Chengdu and Shanghai. I got to know three of them pretty well and had some interesting discussions with them that led me to believe that they're not just "fed the party line" and were much more knowledgeable about us in the US and how we differ than I might have thought. I continue to email one regularly and plan to connect with him again when I return in 2013. Suffice to say if you're considering NOT using a guide because you believe they're stifled by the government and its required training, I'd strongly suggest you reconsider. I can also confirm that all four did not depend solely on tips, they made that clear from the outset as they were uncomfortable with us dumping our purses out on them at day's end.

amyb, I just looked up your trip report and it is truly excellent! I'm not so concerned about being fed the party line...it is what it is...but more concerned with maximizing my time there and having guides certainly saves time figuring out how to do everything...especially if all of a sudden a road is closed, etc. I'm glad you had a good experience with the others in your group also. I'm still debating between a private tour and a small group...it maybe would be fun to tour with a few others, but all it takes is one obnoxious person to ruin a trip. I think I'd prefer more control over what we do each day and the pace that we do it in. I'd like some "savoring" time as well.

Maybe I am crazy but I was WOW-ed by the warriors! Just the mere fact that someone painstakingly reassembled all those figures is amazing to me. The site was far more elaborate than what I had expected. We took the Chinese bus from Xian to the site. On the way, we met a family from Mongolia. The 30ish son was teaching English in a Xian college and he wanted to practice. After the warriors, we all went to a "Famous Noodle' restaurant- Xian is known for their noodles- and on to Hua Qing Hot Springs- and finally a local bus back to Xian. We had a great day. No guide. Just us and local transportation. We spent 3 weeks in China and exited thru Hong Kong. We were happy with what we were able to do independently. We met many locals. Did we get all the nuances of what we were seeing, probably not. Did we have some minor glitches along the way- sure. But, we saw parts of China we did not expect to see. Our opinion is do the research and then go for it. Forums like this were invaluable to us. I asked question after question until I thought I "got it". My husband announced it was "our best trip ever" on the way home.

thanks lynclarke...I'm glad you had a great experience going independent...and am noting your vote for the warriors.

We spent just one wild and crazy day and night in X'ian in 2007.

I remember we awoke from a jostle of the cars on the overnight train from Beijing in the morning twilight to the sight of homes in little villages carved into the hills in cave dwellings a little over an hour out of X'ian. I wrote a report on what we did in the 24 hrs we were there but if I had to do it again I would definitely give it at least two to three days. We hired a private guide and driver from China Trip Advisor and couldn't have been happier. The arrival scene at X'ian train station in the early morning was right out of the 19th century novels. Coolie dressed workers there waiting to hand carry your luggage to your awaiting vehicle or where ever for a pittance. When you see the upstairs passage ways it take to get out of the station you will appreciate this service very quickly

X'ian is a large city and capital of the province with a population of over 7,500,000 so there is a lot to do and see besides the warriors which imho is worth the trip to X'ian all in itself.....awesome.

Aloha!

hawaiiantraveler, you paint a charming portrait of X'ian!

"The arrival scene at X'ian train station in the early morning was right out of the 19th century novels. Coolie dressed workers there waiting to hand carry your luggage to your awaiting vehicle or where ever for a pittance."

Either times have changed or arriving in the late evening is very different than arriving in the early morning! When I was there in 2010, the only people around who offered to carry luggage quoted VERY high prices and it took a LONG time to find a taxi that would use a meter. That doesn't mean there weren't helpful people - in fact one person may have missed her own train while trying to help me buy a ticket for my next train. But it wasn't a seen out of 19th century novels - its was, instead, a scene from a rapidly modernizing and increasingly Westernized China.

hello again barefoot contessa....by all means see Xian and the warriors. I first saw them in 1984, only a few years after they were unearthed...it was a very raw exhibit then...but my wife hadn't been, so in '07 I did it again (a very different China of course)...the guide we hired didn't show (the famous Clarence Guo)...so we hired a taxi driven by a young woman...drove is from the Hyatt to the warriors, waited two hours for us, drove us back to the hotel, picked us up for the drive to the airport the next day...all for $40.
The concierge at the hotel had arranged it.

Here's a look at the warriors in '07. A lot more polshed than it was in '84:

Stu

OOPS..forgot to paste...see what happens when you're old as dirt!

http://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/ChinaXian2007#

There are a few 1984 pix thrown in. Photos were not allowed to be taken inside in '84. Have a great trip. (I also have pix of BJ, Shanghai, Guilin, Yangshuo and rice terraces if you wish...)

stu

stu

stu--great pics

stu, thanks for sharing those...I wonder if you get closer to them in 1984? I'd love to see your photos of all that you mentioned as we're going to those places too.

Hi! If you like Chinese history, Xi'an is worthy to visit. Xi'an was the capital of the fisrt China emperor. Terra Cotta Army and ancient City Wall are wothy to visit.

CHINA/BEIJING2007 - stu - Picasa Web Albums

GUILIN/YANGSHUO/LI RIVERand vicinity - stu - Picasa Web Albums

CHINA/SHANGHAI 2007 - stu - Picasa Web Albums

Barefoot contessa...since you say you'll be vsiting other parts of China in addition to Xian, here are some photos for you from 2007 and some tossed in from '84. I'll also rescan some Yunnan pics from '84 (Stone Forest near Kunming)

Everything is relative to your own interests.

This is like asking: Is it worth it to go to Pompeii?

Depends - on your interests.

If you do go, DIY is certainly cheaper but you'll probably spend more time trying to figure out how to get to a certain place, how to get tickets, etc. If you spend more money and take a tour, then you don't have to worry about these things which will be taken care of for you. so, to a certain extent it's a consideration of time versus money.

Personally, I think rkkwan's idea of picking up a tour in Hong Kong (if you are stopping there) is an excellent idea. You don't have to take a tour of all the cities that you plan to visit in China. You could do a tour of just a couple of the more out of the way cities, like Xian. Hong Kong is much more Westerner user-friendly and will be easier for you to arrange your tour from there.

Or, you could arrange a city tour at the hotel in the city in which you are staying. Some of the hotels run their own tours. Needless to say, the more expensive the hotel, the better arranged the tour and the better tour guide (generally speaking! There's always the occasional bad egg in the lot!) This is what we tend to do.

There's no need to sign up to an all-China tour unless the price is right. You can certainly get to Shanghai and Beijing on your own, just like any big city anywhere on this planet. Suzhou can be done in one day from Shanghai with a tour guide and his/her car. That would be the best. The driver will know where all the gardens are, should take you to somewhere for lunch, and then get you back to your hotel in Shanghai safely. Hangzhou is better for an overnight stay or two.

I'm not quite sure what you meant by "Yunnan" since it is an entire province. Did you have any specific destination in mind or were you planning on a "tour" of the entire province?

I will say that Xian was my least favorite city of those we visited -- horrible air quality. However, I loved the sights of Xian, especially the warriors, and I had no regrets about spending time there. As others have said there are many other things to see and do in Xian.

I highly recommend the Tomb of Emperor Jingdi (Hanyangling). The presentation is unique -- you walk on a glass floor above the excavations which gives you a wonderful close-up view. The tomb is sort of a domestic version of the warriors with teracotta figures that look like dolls, but were intended to be servants in the afterlife, and all kinds of animals. Really fascinating.

I think my reticence about Xian is that it is a big city...and I think Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong will be more than enough in that category. Another plus of skipping Xian is avoiding two more internal flights. I'm glad most of you did enjoy the experience though.

As of this tentative point, I'm thinking of using Wild China's private journeys for Beijing: 4 nights (I'm sure we could manage on our own there....but I like the idea of a guide helping us when we first arrive jet-lagged and overwhelmed by the crush of humanity. I don't want to figure out public transport when we first get there...and sights other than the Forbidden City and hutungs require transport.)
Then, they have a 4 night Guilin package (hike along Longsheng or Dragon's Back Terraces thru minority villages with lunch at local farmer's house, boat ride on Li River, hike or bike in Yangshou, view cormorant fishing, hike or bike towards Aishan Village, hike up Moon HIll, lunch in fishing village, etc.
Then, 7 nights in Yunnan: Dali, cable car up Cangshan mtn, boat ride on Erhai Lake to Bai villages; visit Shaxi enroute to Lijiang; Old Town, hike near Jade Dragon Snow Mtn; Naxi dinner party; Shangri-La...enroute first bend of Yangtze River, Tiger Leaping Gorge; visit Songzanlin Monastery, Tibetan home cooked lunch; Old town; Tibetan hot pot dinner and village dancing.

After this, we're on our own in Shanghai (3 nights?)..and I'd like to take the bullet train & spend two nights in Hangzhou...and possibly two at Moganshan just to relax. Then, we stopover in Hong Kong...I'd like to spend 5 days there for a day trip to Macau and one to the beaches.
Anyway, that's the preliminary plan, so I don't think I have time for Xian. i haven't priced this out yet so that also could change things. Comments?

barefoot contessa...sorry, I inserted the wrong addresses for the China {pics above..I will try another way..should give you a good feel for BJ, Guilin/Yangshuo/terraces and Shanghai. What ever you decide, you will love it..have a great trip.
Stu

barefoot...gotta do them separately..haven't split the albums yet..

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/ChinaBeijing2007#

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/GuilinYangshuoLiRiverAndVicinity#

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/Shanghai200702#

excuse the inconvenience, barefoot,,
stu
https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/KunmingYunnanAndStoneForest#

Sounds like a wonderful trip, with or without Xian!

Just one comment at this point. I'm not certain what Wild China's prices are for Beijing, but it's really not necessary to sign up for tours of Beijing while you are outside of China.

A lot depends on your budget and which hotel you will be staying at. Whereas it may be sensible to have a tour guide meet you at Beijing Airport, it's really not necessary to have to sign up for their tour just to have an escort from the airport to your hotel.

If you are staying in a good hotel, it can send a car to pick you up at the airport. You will find the airports in the large cities in Asia a great deal more efficient than the ones in the US. After you get out of the secured area on your own, you will find there are any number of Chinese holding up a large card with someone's name on it. The person with your name on his card will then get you to your hotel - it doesn't matter whether it's a hotel employee or a tour guide that does this.

Have you looked at hotels yet? It would help at this point to know which hotels you are considering in the large cities.

stu, thanks for going thru the trouble to post your photos....I will look at them soon.

easytraveler,
you make a lot of good points. I could rely on our hotel for a guide to the Wall and the Summer Palace...and a pick up from the airport. It probably would be a lot less money. Do you have any suggestions for where to stay in Beijing? I'd like to be within walking distance of the Forbidden City and maybe a hutong...and we'd like as much luxury as we can afford : - )! We probably wouldn't stay at the most expensive hotels...but one notch down....I'd prefer not a business type but rather a smaller boutique hotel that retains some local ambiance.
I want to visit the Mutianyu section of the Wall...is it best to overnight nearby rather than come back to Beijing? It looks like we could hit the airport on the way back and fly on to Guilin.

from Mutianyu, you could get to the airport. Suggest using a guide with a car to drive you to the Mutianyu section, stop for lunch at a great dumpling place (near the wall)and get to you the airport for a late afternoon flight. I see no need to spend the night at Mutianyu.

Several of us Fodor-folk have used the services of Kong Lin and his bride Violet.

As I say, contessa, the main reason we used any city guides on our '07 trip was for transportation. In '84 we had to be part of an organized tour..things have changed dramatically!Kong Lin will pick you up at your hotel and take you to the wall, and then to aformemtioned dumpling heaven("Familty Reunion") in a small town fairly close to wall. By the way, be sure to take the fun toboggan ride down from the wall (see pics). Kong Lin pic is with the BJ pics standing next to my wife at the entrance.

konglin316@hotmail.com

Got a good one for Yangshuo/Guilin/rice terraces, too..also used by other Fodorites.

Jadeleo66@yahoo.com

Did not feel the need for a driver in Shanghai and I told what we did in Xian.(we were happy with the Crowne Plaza, well situated on Wangfujing street, in BJ, and the Sheraton in Guilin, at riverside)



Have a great one...

Stu

Stu, Loved your pics! I thought the toboggan from the Wall looked scary though....I don't like speed! The Temple of Heaven complex looks lovely...very fascinating. Guilin...the ride down the river looked cloudy and gloomy like when we were in Halong Bay...those tourist bamboo rafts look like they're under water! Loved the Dong women and the terraces. Diid you like the Peace Hotel? Fun seeing your '84 pics...you don't look a day older! : - )
Will check out your guides....and like your idea of flying out that afternoon rather than staying overnight.

barefoot...you control your own speed on the toboggan...fun. Notice the wall was not at all crowded like it woul be in summer..It was April. October shold be fine.

The Li River scenes are quite dramatic even when it's cloudy.

One of the Dong women pics took Runner Up in Fodor's China Contest..another with all the women combing out their hair was featured in the L.A. Times Sunday Travel pages.

We did not stay at the Peace on this trip...but did in '84. It was under renovation this time..but we were allowed to take the elevator to the top terrace for pics. We stayed at the Ramada (see pics)..quite good at a fantastic $120 rate. EK stayed next door at the Meridien.

I loved the photo of the Dong women combing their hair! Congrats on some great photos.

I probably would break the brake on the toboggan!

Yes, Xian is worth it. We went to see the warriors, but also enjoyed walking on the city wall and visiting the Bell Tower. We were on a tour and only had a day and a half, but would have liked to have spent more time there.

Also, you do not need a guide to see the Summer Palace in Beijing. We skipped out on the tour's excursion to the palace. My husband and I went there by taxi. We had our hotel write out our destination in Chinese and gave it to the taxi driver. We had no trouble buying our tickets or navigating the complex. The palace has a very good map of the grounds that is in English. We spent a very enjoyable afternoon there. We saw much more than our fellow travelers on the guided tour.

Sara

> Also, you do not need a guide to see the Summer Palace in Beijing

You can also get there by subway or riverboat and can easily explore the area on your own.

Thanks sari80 and kja for clarifying how easy it is to get to the Summer Palace. I'm currently pricing this out with and without the help of a tour operator.

The Summer Palace can be reached by Beijing's incredibly easy-to-use, inexpensive, and efficient Metro or by an inexpensive tourist boat. I went by boat, returned by metro; I think the reverse would be better: The boat TO the Summer Palace had someone using a loud speaker to provide information - and it was LOUD. REALLY loud. From what I've read since, the boat trip from the Summer Palace to central Beijing is generally much more quiet.

Thanks again kja...boat it is on the way back!

I think it is worthwwhile.At first,You know it is prefect to travel Xian on October.Because it is a good season for visiting .Also,it is the good time for fresh fruit.You can take a lot when you back.It is a old city.There are nany beactiful places.such as Bell and drum tower, Big wild goose pagoda, City wall, Muslim street , tang paradise etc
If you dou not have a look at,I am sure you will miss something.Besides,it has many delicious foods,you will like it. . For example, there are dumplibg banquet and lcoal noodles and mulsim food
You can chionce aservice group,thet will offer hrlp to you.At last,I wosh you will have a good trip.

Thanks for commenting Zhangyuqin. However, I have decided to skip it on this trip. Instead, we're going to Lijiang, the Linden Centre near Dali, and Yangshuo (instead of Guilin)...and Beijing, Shanghai, Hainan island and Hong Kong. That's a full enough trip!