I believe that November is considered one of the most preferred times to visit Japan (or at least parts of it), and that you might want to consider planning your time around the autumn foliage options - see

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2273.html

Also, is open jaw an option for you? Perhaps Narita and Kansai?

Hope that helps!

I did a trip like that at the beginning of November 2007. Check out my travelogue:
http://www.molon.de/travelogues/Japan/2007/

and the photos I got:
http://www.molon.de/galleries/Japan/

The weather was quite good.

Oooh we are looking at either Japan, Burma or Laos in November..... When u have your dates let me know......

Nothing? HT, please tell me you're around...

It hasn't even been 12 hours since you posted this... I'm sure HT will be around.

I am looking forward to your Burma report.

I think HT would approve. I see a big GTG developing. We will be in Japan from 10/23 - 11/6. Bob and Karen arrive on 10/25 and I believe they will be there for a couple of weeks. HT and Linda are also coming over at that time. So if you plan on early November you will be there when all of us are. Our trip includes time in Tokyo, Kanazawa (home of KimJapan) and Kyoto. All indications have been that the weather and foliage at that time will be good. We are flying into Tokyo and out of Osaka (which is right next to Kyoto).

November is a great time to go to Japan. Figure fall colors to be at their peak around the 18th. Labor Thanksgiving holiday is on the weekend of US Thanksgiving Day (I think the actual holiday is that Friday), so booking hotels for those days in advance is a good idea. Also, booking lodging on Miyajima during peak time needs to be done in advance. I mention this just to alert you that there will be some competition for lodging then, it is not a big concern, just don't wait till the last minute. I did wait until two or three days in advance to book lodging in Nara. The agent I used in Japan had to call a few places before she found availability on that holiday weekend.

The itinerary you sketched out is a good one. You don't necessarily have to start or end in Tokyo. You can fly to/from Tokyo (Haneda or NRT) and connect to Osaka (OSA) or Hiroshima (HIJ) or Fukuoka (FUK). ANA has/had an overnight flight from LAX to Haneda arriving early in the morning that would easily allow for easy connections elsewhere in Japan.

If you use the online award search at United it might not show availability for domestic Japan flights but I would actually expect that those flights are available - I have booked award flights a few times for domestic Japan and always got exactly what I wanted. So, if you want to fly HIJ-LAX, connecting at HND, but don't get availability for HIJ-HND online then definitely call.

Also, besides ANA and United you should look at flights on Asiana, especially in first class (or their Quadra Smartium business class seats for the TPAC flights). I very highly recommend Asiana first class, flying doesn't get much better than that. For example, on my most recent trip to Japan I flew Asiana via Seoul to Osaka and returned from Toyama via Seoul.

Where are you flying from? LAX, I think, as I remember meeting you at the GTG in Pasadena.

Shichi-go-san is celebrated in November, so you want to go to Meiji Jingu (or similar shrine in another city) on a Sunday. There is a grand sumo tournanment in Fukuoka in November which is great fun.

You mentioned two nights on Miyajima which is good, but I suggest one night in Hiroshima and then one in Miyajima (at, Momijiso ryokan). Travel to Hiroshima one day, see the Peace Park and museum and have an evening in the city (try okonomiyaki). Next day, stash luggage at the station and go to Miyajima, checking in to your ryokan at 3 or 4PM.

It's still early here in paradise....I'm here...barely. Mrs HT & I have been celebrating our 30th anniversary this week with tonight being at the family condo in Waikiki and a dinner at one of our fave Waikiki restaurants. I am beat

But my question is: what kind of trip can one have in November in Japan?

November and April are my favorite times to travel in Japan.

April with the wonderous cherry blossoms and November for its mild weather and the beautiful koyo season. You should plan the second and third week of November if you can or even the third and fourth weeks are good too depending on what the fall colors forecast will be this year. I say it will be an earlier season this year thus the second and third week reco.

I like your choice of cities for a first visit. I also recommend an open jaw flight if you can arrange on miles to maximize your time and save you money not having to go back to Tokyo. A LAX-NRT then KIX-LAX would work good if you can get it on UA or ANA, etc.
Miyajima in the fall with all the momiji(maple) leaves is a not to be missed and a gondola ride or hike up to Mt Misen on a clear day with it's spectacular views of Hiroshima oi one direction and the Seto inland Sea and Shikoku in the other. Wild monkeys, deer and other animals are seen all through the mountain and families of monkeys abound at the top of the godola stops.

I would probably head from Tokyo straight to Hiroshima and start there and backtrack to Kyoto going to Koyasan the night before ending in Kyoto and flying back to LA from KIX if possible. Kyoto is a fantastic city to leave Japan from leaving you with the best memories of Japan. Make some time for a day trip to Osaka from Kyoto if you are a foodie. They don't call Osaka "Japan's kitchen" for nothing.

As you get your tickets let me know the dates and I will reco a more firm itinerary with hotel and ryokan recos. Got to get going....Waikiki calls.

Aloha!

Be careful if you are looking at first class awards on ANA using the United search. The search results show first class availability on two-cabin planes. I think that these flights have 4-digit flight numbers. For example NH5, LAX-NRT, has three cabins, so real first class, but NH 1005, LAX-HND, only has Club ANA business and no first class. You could end up paying the 67,500 miles instead of 60,000 miles for the same seat if you chose first class instead of business (or so it appears).

Happy anniversary to you and Linda, HT!

> It's still early here in paradise....I'm here...barely.

Well put on some clothes, ferchrissakes

yea, not good to appear in hono with no clothes this time of year..

HAPPY, HAPPY

B&K

Just to echo, November is great. It's not hot like summer and not cold like winter, gardens are great, autumn leaves in cooler and higher areas have changed...perfect. November 4 and 23 are holidays (Culture Day and Labor Thanksgiving Day) - doesn'T change anything, just so you know that those weekends may be busy.

If you are into art or architecture or both, Naoshima is a great stop as it's a island completely devoted to art. The hotel Benesse House is very special. Worth the time I think.

Happy Anniversary to the happy couple in Hawaii!

You guys are the best. Knew I could count on amazing advice!

(Kathie, sorry for the panic--I just really need to book these tickets while I still can...going over a holiday is always challenging for mileage tickets, but even moreso with this new policy.)

And, yes, open jaw sounds great. I'll check with United to see if we can get a return from KIX (after flying in to Tokyo from LAX.)

This is SO unbelievably exciting. I have so many questions to ask you guys. Let me try and get the flights booked and I'll report back with more info.

Oh--and to those wondering about date, we're looking at about the 3rd and 4th weeks of November.

Happy Anniversary, P & L. Please enjoy your weekend, you crazy kids. No Fodors!

Well, the tickets are now officially booked!

We depart on 11/14 LAX-NRT via Seoul on Asiana business; returning on the 26th from ITM-NRT (KIX wasn't available) on ANA coach, then connecting to NRT-LAX on ANA biz.

I couldn't be happier with the fact that this all worked out. Normally I hate making flying and routing decisions under pressure, but considering how strongly we felt about going back to Japan this year, I felt like it was a no-brainer given the mileage tickets were there. Take it while you can, you know?

Now on to the finer points of planning.

Thanks for the suggestion to route Tokyo > Hiroshima > Miyajima > Kyoto. That sounds fantastic. Now I really need to think about hotels (and I agree that we should get reservations in as soon as we can.) Honestly, that's my only fear--if I even have one--about this trip.

We're happy to spend money when need be on a ryokan...but, from what I gather, you really should splurge on that where it means something (my friends who go to Japan every year swear by doing it in Kyoto.) I think I carry perhaps a stereotype that the cost of hotels is going to be astronomical (even non-ryokan.) Maybe that's just an outdated assumption, though.

I gotta check on our Amex point balance and see how I can make a few hotel gift certificates work to our advantage in Tokyo. We did this in Singapore -- where we stayed at the Mandarin Oriental when we never could have afforded it on our own -- and it really was a wonderful experience.

I can't type fast enough -- this is so exciting!!

First of all a very happy anniversary Peter and Linda!

Not much to chime in but just wanted to add that our stay at a Ryokan in Kyoto was one of the most memorable event in our travel to Japan. Have done it once and have not repeated it again, mostly because of the cost! We stayed at the Hiiragiya in the main or old building and had a wonderful time.

Also, we really appreciate the luggage forwarding service in Japan. So very efficient, inexpensive and very convenient.

Have fun planning!

A stay in a traditional ryokan does not have to cost a ton of money. Much (maybe most) of the cost is due to the dinner.

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/about/ryokan/index.htm

Lodging in Japan is much cheaper than places like New York, London, Singapore or Hong Kong. Lots of 3* places for under $100 in all cities, and even the large 4* or 5*s are reasonable, especially since the recent depreciation of the yen.

Ryokans are very cheap or even free once you think how much it cost to have those meals. I paid like $600 for a night in a top notch one with our private outdoor rotenburo, but the dinners alone are worth $400 anywhere in the world. And there's also breakfast.

Totally worth it unless you don't care for the meals.

Sorry you won't be there when we and other fodorites are, but maybe the foliage will be better for you. We are also on that ITM coach flight to NRT before flying biz to IAD and on to Hartford.

I usually recommend staying in ryokan outside of cities for the onsen, with one exception - Hoshinoya Kyoto in Arashiyama. It will be expensive but it is magic. Skimp everywhere else if you must even. Or, kinder to your wallet, between Kyoto and Kanazawa, Beniya Mukayu. Wonderful hosts and fantastic food. In Tokyo, the oversupply of luxury hotels keeps the price around ¥40,000-¥50,000/night - same as Peninsula Bangkok these days. Business hotel chains like Toyoko Inn and APA are under ¥10,000/night - room is tiny but clean. Come to Kanazawa and I can get you into a restored machiya in a geisha district - you get the whole house.

Bill, November is a great month in Japan, and you cannot go wrong where ever you go. It's all like Narita town, but better!

I don't know if any of you remember but we did actually have a big Japan trip completely planned for April 2011, but had to cancel at the last minute because of the devastating earthquake and tsunami. It's nice that we'll finally get the chance to take that trip now, but, admittedly, I do forget quite a bit of the details of that trip--we had everything planned and booked, including ryokans.

I can't remember if the price of ryokans (say $600/night, per rkkwan's experience) typically is per person per night (including food.) I'm guessing so. If that is the case, then is it logical to say 1 ryokan for 1 night is enough? That seems logical to me...maybe 2 max but even that might be pushing it. I love the idea of kaiseki meals, but I can't imagine being able to stomach (or afford) more than 1 in 10 nights...especially 2 nights in a row.

I guess I really need to get my itinerary in a row here so I can hone in on where to book a ryokan.

Thinking something like this:

Nov 15 Arrive Tokyo @ 11AM
Nov 16 Tokyo
Nov 17 Tokyo
Nov 18 Hiroshima
Nov 19 Miyajima
Nov 20 Miyajima
Nov 21 Kyoto
Nov 22 Kyoto
Nov 23 Kyoto / Nara?
Nov 24 Kyoto
Nov 25 Osaka ?
Nov 26 Osaka / Depart for LAX @ 2:30 PM

Osaka definitely seems crazy and interesting -- especially for the food angle. But considering that we're leaving at 2:30 from our Osaka our last day, I figure we'd have to overnight there to really get a feel for it. Mostly, I want to make sure we're in Kyoto long enough.

That is a good itinerary but I would probably move Hiroshima/Miyajima to after Kyoto.

One reason is travel time: Tokyo to Kyoto is 2.5 to 3 hours by JR. Kyoto to Hiroshima is about 2 hours. Tokyo to Hiroshima then is about 5 hours. I try to keep rail travel time to 4 hours or less, but there is a benefit to getting that all done at once.

The other reason is for the fall colors. Around the 18th would be great timing for Kyoto. And then the colors would be closer to peak after that on Miyajima (22nd, 23rd) as it is south of Kyoto.

You are right that it is not necessary (or desirable to me) to stay 2 consecutive nights in one ryokan. Enjoy one night and meal in a ryokan where the ryokan is the destination.

I would make the same general recommendation as KimJapan about staying at a ryokan that is outside of a city and preferrably in an onsen town.

Two nights on Miyajima is one too many IMHO, esp considering that you will be traveling there from Hiroshima.

You don't really have to stay in Osaka the night before your flight. You can get a bus from Kyoto station (and other Kyoto locations, I think) to Itami airport and it takes just under an hour.

Definitely put Meiji Jingu on your plan for Tokyo on the 17th (or 16th as second choice).

Warm greetings Bill, from Hong Kong, and congratulations on your new Asian adventure. I do wish to thank you for spending time in our fine home of Singapore during your recent Burmese / Thailand journey. (And, if memory serves correct, some of your flights were with my all-time favourite carrier, Singapore Airlines; well done.)

You will have so much fun in the land of the rising sun. At present, I don't travel to Tokyo for meetings nearly as much as preferred (perhaps next month), but every trip has been enjoyable and rather efficient.

Concerning your flights, I see I'm a bit late in doing my usual suggestion of beloved Singapore Airlines; however, your current flights do appear quite adequate. However, should your circumstances change, SIA currently offers LAX-NRT service with SQ11 via those A380s. Late last week, I had the privilege of flying SQ1 J (SFO-HKG) for work, and that A380 trans-pac on the upper deck was delightfully serene. Perhaps in the near future for you; would be honoured to offer SIA seating and dining suggestions.

Noticed on your profile page that the Peninsula Bangkok is one of your favourites (as is for yours truly). Well, can highly and personally vouch for her Tokyo-based sister. (And I do believe the esteemed KimJapan has also stayed at the property.) And, the Park Hyatt is another special place. (And, for what it's worth, have also enjoyed business travel overnights at the Radisson in Narita; over the years, that property has played host to various airline crews.)

Concerning Kyoto, I am going to give a heartfelt and long-running personal and family thanks to a fine shop called Kita Antiques (256 Umemoto-Cho, Higashiyama-Ku); proprietor, the wondrous Mr. Kita. Back in the 1950s, two beloved and departed ancestors lived in Kyoto; the wife was a rather refined and well-to-do shopaholic. Some of her numerous purchases were from the elder Mr. Kita. (She also helped care for one of the Kita's children; they developed a close bond.) Recently, a relative informed that a '50s-era photo of this lovely woman can still be found inside the shop. (There are a few other family-Kita tales for another time.) Our humble home in Singapore contains some exquisite art she brought back from Japan ~ 60 years ago. I love Kyoto.

Now, the following will not apply to your upcoming trip, but my all-time cherished Japanese moment occurred 20+ years ago, ascending to the summit of Mt. Fuji. July, with a full moon; memorable. (Then, I've always loved all things pertaining to mountains. One of these years, will get away from work long enough to finally get down to Antarctica for some climbing.)

I'll have more later, as some Sunday Hong Kong errands beckon. Savour your planning, Bill, and all the best to you and all,

macintosh (robert)


... Singapore Girl, You're a Great Way to Fly ...

So, what I am suggesting is:
3 nights Tokyo
4 nights Kyoto
1 night Hiroshima
1 night Miyajima
2 nights Osaka

Leave Kyoto in the morning spend most of the day and the night in Hiroshima. Next morning go to Miyajima and spend the night then have much of the next day to spend on Miyajima, traveling to Osaka in the evening or late afternoon. Followed by a full day in Osaka before your departure.

mrwunrfl, I thought about that--but HT's suggestions of going straight out to the southernmost point and working back seemed to make more sense than a zigzag (and the idea of ending in Kyoto seems like it would leave a lasting memory.) But your suggestion definitely is making me think about that option as well.

The big unknown is Koyasan or not. Back in the last Japan trip planning it was included as a destination for us, but I remember, it was quite difficult to get to and, even back then, I wondered if it was going to be worth it. I remember originally looking at those pictures of it online and thinking how beautiful the forest and the cemetery looked with the mist rising, etc and of course the idea of staying in a monastery is so unique...but even on our layover in Narita town, I saw similar scenery (although admittedly not nestled up in the mountains.) Point is: I wonder if it's one of those 2nd or 3rd trip to Japan destinations -- or one for those who have more days to spend. I definitely want a mix of big city and small and intimate towns.

As far as ryokans with onsen go, where is the best candidate of the cities I'm planning to visit? Miyajima seems more a candidate, but if I recall there aren't any "WOW" ryokans there. I'm guessing I'm going to find a bit more of that near Kyoto.

And when we say 'splurge' exactly how much are we talking? I know ryokan -- even moderate ones -- can be expensive once food is factored in. So, wondering how much the higher end/more posh ones can actually be.

Sorry--I know I have a million questions.

Mr. Macintosh,

As always, a great pleasure to hear from you.

We did, indeed, fly your cherished carrier of choice (from Beijing to Singapore)...and it was a true delight. Everything I expected...and then some. The service really did exceed all my expectations. I felt truly taken care of and I can't even tell you the last time I flew and someone called me Mr. Filmwill. It really was a special flight. Only wish it had lasted longer!

As you may have noted, we're on Star Alliance award tickets...and your beloved SQ doesn't release any award seats on their A380s. So, as much as I would've killed to experience that, it's just not an option. But, as you say, I think we've got a pretty good backup plan.

Thanks for the hotel info for Tokyo. We'll see how far Amex Rewards points get me. I have a feeling they got me a lot further in Singapore than they will in Tokyo from what little research I've done so far.

So, did I miss it, have you booked the flights?

Take a look at the webpage at the link I gave above. There is a list of price ranges and variables that determine prices. You can have an authentic ryokan experience, as KimJapan likes to call it, at inns in each range. There are some good links at the bottom of the page.

Here is a nice moderate priced ryokan on Miyajima:
http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/miyajima/momijiso.htm

I've been to Japan eight times and have not yet visited Koyasan. I think getting there would be part of the fun.

For an onsen visit or onsen ryokan stay on your route you can consider Hakone. Also Atami. Both in the Tokyo area. Arima Onsen is near Osaka. I think ht visited/stayed in another onsen town in that region.

Thank you all for the good wishes!!!

You can stay in Kyoto till the last day. Kyoto is a short trip to KIX and Osaka can be a day trip.

You can train, taxi or helicopter to KIX from Kyoto if you want. Most take the JR Haruka Express train or the limo bus service. Hit the option at the top left of the page for the To/From Kansai/Kyoto option.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2363.html

there is also MK Taxi service which we have used with delight if you prefer:

http://www.mk-group.co.jp/english/

We are a couple who prefers to be at a ryokan with onsen outside of a major city and in the countryside with natural beauty around you. As mrwunrfl correctly states a ryokan stay need not be too expensive although there are many that are. Tsurunoyu in Northern Tohoku would be very modest in cost but you have to book this place almost a year in advance. For you and David I see in a place in Gora(Hakone) like this one we still only dream of going to

http://www.hakoneginyu.co.jp/english/main.html

or one night here in the same general area

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/hakone/hougetsu.htm

or if you want a little hiking, Linda and I spent a couple of nights here on the Izu peninsula one fall season. Fabulous area and scenery stuck in the hills next to a river with seven waterfalls. There are natural hot spring baths along the river. What more can you ask for?

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/shizuoka/amagiso.htm

Closer to Kyoto you may choose an overnight in Kinosaki Onsen and one of their many ryokan in town especially if you favor crab on your dinner menu. Arima onsen is much closer to Kyoto but I favor Kinosaki Onsen.

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/kinosaki/index.htm

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/arima/index.htm

In Kyoto whatever your plans are make sure to make at least a day visit the town of Arashiyama. If you take KimJapan's suggestion of the ryokan there and visit the town at the same time you may be doing the two birds with one stone thing....

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3912.html

For cheaper places to stay along with the ryokans or 5 star venues you should probably check into some of these at a couple of your stops along the way to save some money. Hiroshima, Tokyo and Kyoto all have these chains in good locations that are clean, cheap but small. We have stayed in all of these and like the comfort inn, toyoko and especially the dormy inn chains with the free onsite onsen-like baths. When you are a couple and staying in one of these business hotels ALWAYS ORDER THE TWIN ROOM. NEVER order a double room. Double rooms will have one small double bed and that's it where the two beds with give you a little more space and comfort.....not much


http://www.toyoko-inn.com/eng/

http://www.comfortinn.com/sitemap-japan-JP

http://www.sunroute.jp/english/index.html

http://www.japanican.com/hotels/list.aspx?ty=dormyinn

In ten trips to Japan we have still to do a trip to Koyasan. I agree with mrwunrfl though that the trip up and down would be a highlight and not anything daunting. Transport, especially by train is a treat in Japan and not to be missed. I can imagine the timing and pride the conductors on the various transport take in getting you to the next stop on time so you can catch your next leg in comfort and without worry. Trust me about this....you will see when you get there.

Unless you want reservations in a fabulously cherished ryokan or something it is actually a little early for any good pricing on hotels in November. Most Japanese hotel sites don't even give out prices until six months in advance and business hotels might not give them out until three months in advance. That said, you should look for deals in November to start coming out after the spring rush of tourists in April. If you think of anything else, fire away!

Aloha!

OOooops, just saw that your leaving from Itami not KIX which is even better because its closer to Kyoto. Just hit that Itami/Kyoto button

Aloha!

Wow, that's a ton to digest, HT. Thank you so very much.

Here's something that I still am struggling with. I get that we don't want to do a ryokan for 2 nights in a row, but does that mean more than 1 ryokan in the whole trip might also be too much? My other half is having a hard time digesting 2 ryokan on this trip...mostly because I think he thinks about price and probably struggles with the same misconceptions I do.

Looking at the JGH site, it seems that not all ryokan require one to book the dinner and/or breakfast service. That's great--but I can't imagine that in some of these locations that you would have any other meal options in the area (especially outside of major cities.)

Right now, planning on hotels for Tokyo, Hiroshima and Kyoto. Considering ryokan for Hakone and Miyajima...but anything more than that seems like it might be overkill.

Consider getting out of the cities and off the beaten path. Flatt's is one of our favorites. Great food, welcoming hosts who love to chat, beautiful country location in Noto. Under ¥16,000 per person per night with an amazing dinner ad breakfast included. Lovely.

Ryokan that don't serve or make dinner optional are more or less guesthouses. The dinner is usually the star of the show so to not have it, well, it's like having no show at all.

Get out of the cities and off the main drag and prices are more in line with true value.

I meant to include this. http://m.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/smart-mouth-a-guesthouse-that-offers-italian-cooking-japanese-style/2013/01/10/1eceda38-569d-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story_1.html

I hadn't seen that article, Kim. Thanks for posting.

Bill, we reserved a night at Flatt's in October - planning to rent a car and explore the area (Noto Peninsula)...

The article is new in the last few weeks. They really enjoyed Flatt's. They also stayed at Kikunoya!

Bill
Pick one night this trip and try a ryokan out in the country somewhere. The Hakone area for you sounds the easiest with many good options. Arima onsen is probably your second easiest option on your present itinerary. An authentic hot springs bath would be a must for me. You can tell the ones with real hot springs baths that have the red circles sign on them on the JGH site. There are many other sites with ryokans available and the best are if you can read Japanese and get the "local" pricing but I always mention the JGH site because they are easy to use for English speaking foreigners and give good service for the first time visitors. Giving too many places like I did above thread I agree tends to overwhelm the first(or second) time visitor.

I like the idea of Flatt's and see it as a viable option. Italian/Japanese.....my two favorite worlds, how can it go wrong?

With Kim's reco I personally wouldn't hesitate for a minute but for a first ryokan experience you can either dull the experience down to make it easier or go for the authentic thing and let that experience slap you in the face. All the mistakes made on that first ryokan experience together with all that apprehension and cluelessness makes for great memories and is a must for your Japanese learning curve imo.

I do see the appeal of Flatt's for the apprehensive first timer though. My advise, and it's just my take, would be to get slapped in the face and save the Italian version for the next trip when you can give Kanazawa and it's environs the time they deserve. I see you two going back to Japan for another trip.....oh wait, you already are,lol.
Your right to compare Japan to CA. Think how many trips it would take you, living in LA, to see all the wonders of CA north to south.....east and west and all in between? To Japan you add in the foreign aspect, culture,world heritage sites and it's sheer beauty and its no wonder we haven't stopped planning trips there yet.

Aloha!

Just to chime in here once more (sorry Bill to hog your thread). We are doing Flatt's primarily for the rural Japan experience. The fact that one can eat a decent meal there and stay overnight very inexpensively is a bonus. We are also doing a very expensive (by my standards) ryokan - Beniya Mukayu, located between Kanazawa and Kyoto. It is not in a rural area but each room has its own authentic hot springs bath and of course, the food is the highlight.

I may have to start a new thread devoted just to ryokan/onsen. Holy hell, this is a lot of information to digest!

I really have no idea if I'm on the right track here, but I'm thinking of 2 ryokan for our trip. 1 more fancy/schmancy with an onsen and one less so in Miyajima. The one in Miyajima is an easy pick as we'll go for the same one we wanted to stay at for the last planned Japan trip. For the fancy/schmancy option, I'm considering the following -- which all should roughly be somewhere along the path of our trip:

HAKONE:
-Gora Kadan (looks beautiful--not sure we can afford it--also seems like it could be a bit "scene-y")

KYOTO/ARASHIYAMA:
-Hoshinoya (looks so magical!--but does it have an onsen? can't tell.)

KOBE:
-Arima Onsen

Any other candidates that might meet our criteria that I should add for consideration to the list above?

I do like that place you're staying at, Craig (Beniya Mukayu) but I wonder if the private onsen wouldn't be as interesting or eye-opening as the public ones. Regardless, it looks stunning.

This Flatts place does sound interesting. I can not find a thing about it on the web--except for that review. And it's not on JGH at all. Where do I get more info? Pricing?

Again, I'll say: I don't know how those of you who have planned trips to Japan have ultimately decided on where to stay. They all look so interesting and unique.

Signed,
Overwhelmed in LA

Flatt's has a Japanese only website that doesn't do the place justice. Also a Japanese Facebook page. It's a local favorite which is how I know it and we book guests there who go to Noto.

Hoshinoya Kyoto - magic. No onsen.

Beniya Mukayu - also has big onsen bath in addition to the private ones with the rooms.

Sorry, that list shouldn't have said KOBE...it should've said:

ARIMA ONSEN:
-Taketoritei

Any input on that one?

Fancyschmantzy on your list would be Gora Kadan or Beniya Mukayu and Taketoritei looks like the gem of Arima Onsen. Don't think you can go wrong with any of those three. Have never been to any of them but envy your decision. There are many and various degrees of shmantzy if you get where we are coming from.

Traditional, hotel, minshuku will all bring different experiences and prices but looks like you want the full shabang and those three places you list would do it for you.

Now to confuse you a bit......

The beauty of the Japan train systems are that they make the seemingly inaccessible accessible. You can be at a ryokan like this in a couple of hours out of Tokyo. I think I showed you this place on your last Japan plan....maybe not. This place is a traditional ryokan, friggen scenic, and not as expensive. Keyword being as. May be crowded during the peak seasons.

http://japaneseguesthouses.com/db/gunma/osenkaku.htm

This place would be a hotel ryokan steeped in tradition and another different ryokan experience. You can't go wrong here, the Emperor of Japan has stayed here.

http://japaneseguesthouses.com/db/hakone/hakonefujiya.htm

There is a ryokan for every mood. You just have to settle on one and looks like you have

Aloha!

I'll confuse you more. Kayotei in Yamanaka Onsen. Arai in Izu.

and then, booking in English via the ryokan's own website or using a third party booker seldom gives you the range of options for dinner choices and prices that their Japanese homepage does and you end up paying more than you should. This is frustrating but can be overcome.

Kim, you and HT are killing me!! Stop giving me so many beautiful places to divert my attention from the already-beautiful places I was fixated on.

Okay, so first things first. I really need to figure out an order of cities.

Right now it's Tokyo > Hiroshima > Miyajima > Kyoto > Osaka

But I understand that a choice of onsen really could change that.

Big question is: is it unreasonable to make it to Hiroshima from Tokyo all in one fell swoop? Sounds like we'd waste an entire day on a train. Not sure that would work out well since that'd not really give us any time to explore HIroshima and then we'd head to Miyajima the next day. I really did like the idea of "ending" in Kyoto, but it may require an interim Kyoto stop before heading to Hiroshima, then come back again to Kyoto at the end?

Another idea is if one of these onsen is somewhere in the middle -- and we could make it there leaving Tokyo in the morning with enough time to enjoy the onsen/ryokan in an overnight stay and then leave the next day for Hiroshima.

Thoughts?

Other questions: based on our overall itinerary, is it worth experiencing/staying overnight in Osaka the day before our flight leaves (leaves at 2:30 PM) -- so we could just go straight from Kyoto to the airport that day -- or go the day before and experience the "foodie" aspects of the city we've heard so much about.

Given that we're hitting Tokyo and Kyoto, I'm hesitant to spend another day in a city, and we could probably use that day somewhere else getting to and from a remote onsen/ryokan...but just really not sure.

It would make a good choice either way.

But, booking that last night in Osaka does not mean that you have to spend the day in Osaka. Instead of returning from a remote spot to Kyoto you can return to Osaka, then enjoy an evening in Osaka before your flight the next day. Spending that last night in Osaka keeps your options open for what you want to do that day.

Spending that day in Osaka would be worthwhile and not just for the food. For example, Osaka castle had a significant role in Japanese history. See it for the architecture, the castle grounds (a park really), and inside is basically a nice museum (and not just arms & armor).
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4000.html

I spent four nights in Osaka and one option for me was to visit Arima Onsen as a day trip. There is a bus between Osaka station and Arima Onsen with a schedule that is perfect for Osaka-jin to go for a soak. I chose not to make that trip but went to Spa World Osaka instead and was not disappointed.

You really should do Spa World! It is sooo much fun!

I feel like I already need to plan the 2nd trip to Japan. Geez Louise!

Seriously, though, maybe I'm dedicating too much time to the cities? Right now, Tokyo = 3 nights, Kyoto = 4 nights. Am I doing too much in one place or the other? Feels like they both warrant a decent chunk of time.

My friend from Osaka tells me that she wouldn't spend 4 nights in Kyoto--that's just too much time. Maybe I'm over-sentimentalizing Kyoto? Just seemed like the kind one place to spend a few days.

I recommend getting out of the big cities for at least a few days. Kyoto is indeed packed with temples and shrines to see, but there is no mistaking it for the big city that it is. Osaka, Tokyo, Hiroshima - city through and through.

You could spend all of the time you have in one place and not see everything, so you've got to pick whether you'd rather be on the move and get a taste of a few places or if you'd prefer to unpack your bag and spend your time seeing a couple of places in a more in depth way.

You don't have to spend huge money on fancy ryokan - you can stay in family run minshuku. The difference isn't authenticity at all, but the aesthetic, level of service, guest facilities, thickness of futon, uniqueness of dishes and skill of the chef.

4 nights is just the right amount of time for a Kyoto first visit, imo 5 nights would be the perfect first time amount if you can afford it giving you flexibility.

Tokyo, Osaka, Yokohama, Nagoya, Sapporo even Fukuoka I would consider big cities. Hiroshima, Kyoto, Kagoshima etc I would rate as medium size cities. it's like comparing a NYC megalopolis to Des Moines. There are some tall buildings and 24hour 7/11's in Des Moines but it ain't no NYC.

Doesn't surprise me that your Osaka friend doesn't think much of Kyoto. There is a local pride with the city you live in. It's like the LA-San Francisco thing.....you know, if you were to call the city Frisco to a San Franciscan.... oi vay

Checking www.hyperdia.com for a mid week in April you can leave Tokyo station at 8:33a and be in Hiroshima at 1:28 pm precisely.

http://www.hyperdia.com/cgi/en/search.html?dep_node=TOKYO&arv_node=HIROSHIMA&via_node01=&via_node02=&via_node03=&year=2013&month=04&day=07&hour=08&minute=00&search_type=0&search_way=&transtime=undefined&sort=0&max_route=5&airplane=off&ship=off&sprnozomi=off&bus=off&lmlimit=null&search_target=route&facility=reserved&sum_target=7

I am assuming you will be staying around the station so you would be too early to check into your hotel but you can leave your luggage there and walk(20 minute or less from station)taxi or tram to the Peace Park area and do that venue. Hiroshima-jo(castle) is a ten minute walk away and Shukkein Gardens is in the same area. Across the street in the opposite direction is the baseball stadium and the covered shopping/restaurant street you can see on your way back to your hotel. If there is a baseball game in town that night you should see it if possible. You'll never see so many rabid fans in one place at a time but these fans are courteous to a fault.....does not dullen the enthusiasm one iota. In fact you have never witnessed a baseball game like this before I guarantee you. Hint.... Japan is where the "thunder sticks" originated. Okay, I'm getting carried away a bit, sorry.

I would stay in Kyoto the last night and commute to ITM from there in the morning. How early do you have to be at ITM? Kyoto is like being in Anaheim and going to LAX but not the freeway traffic. Got to go now.....back soon.

Aloha!

Ok, took a little more time to read what you wrote and see you are leaving at 2:30pm and also are considering another venue before you leave. Koyasan?
No imho you are not over-sentimentalizing Kyoto. It may very well be the highlight of your trip as it is to most.

Mrwunrfl is right about either way is fine. Staying in Osaka would be closer. How heavily(bags) do you travel? If you do pick to overnight in Osaka, hit this area hard for your foodie aspect and shopping too. Above ground(Dotombori) and underground(Namba Walks) will simply amaze you.....does it for me every time.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4001.html

You can't see and experience it all in 11 days no matter how good the plan is so may I suggest that what I see on your plate NOW will give you a good first taste and go with that as it will give you a lot to plan about as you are now seeing. Japan ain't going anywhere soon so you can return if you feel the pull. Also has any Japan traveler noticed the falling yen? It's fallen from 75 yen to $ to now the 90 yen mark. If you read the financials the bet is it will be hovering around 100 yen per $ by mid year so maybe a 25% discount on all your money spent?

You haven't been during cherry blossoms season yet which I liken to "Japan on steroids"

Aloha!

ht said: "Also has any Japan traveler noticed the falling yen? .....by mid year so maybe a 25% discount on all your money spent?"

lol....Sakura in bloom and a favorable ¥/$ exchange rate, what more could a Japan [budget] traveler want..

Mara, lol

today is ¥90.875 to the $1....keep rising kudasai!

So I've taken everyone's advice into consideration and am getting closer to nailing down an ideal order of cities. Right now, I'm here:

Nov 15 Arrive Tokyo (ANA Intercontinental)
Nov 16 Tokyo
Nov 17 Tokyo
Nov 18 Hakone (Gora Kadan)
Nov 19 Hiroshima (Hotel TBD)
Nov 20 Miyajima (Momiji-so)
Nov 21 Kyoto (Hyatt Regency)
Nov 22 Kyoto
Nov 23 Kyoto
Nov 24 Kyoto/Nara day trip
Nov 25 Osaka (Hotel TBD)
Nov 26 Depart for LAX

The one issue still continues to be Hiroshima and how to get there and still be able to see the city in the time I'd have left that day. If I left there from Tokyo, this was an issue--even moreso from Hakone. Looking at train schedules, the earliest I could hope to arrive is 2:30 that day, but that supposes that I'd want to leave Hakone on an 8 AM train (thus not being able to relax and enjoy that morning.) So even if I did that and arrived at 2:30 that's not much time to get rid of our bags and see the sights of the city before sundown. Just feels super, super rushed.

Any suggestions of how to deal with that snafu ... and still maintain our overall itinerary?

Hi flimwill, no suggestions, as we are just now beginning to research our trip to Japan for November. No dates yet, but we may overlap. Happy planning!

um, you could move Kyoto before Hiroshima

One thing you can do for your departure from Hakone is to look for a Hikari train that goes through to Kyoto or Shin Osaka. Most itineraries at hyperdia will probably show connections (e.g. Kodama train from Odawara to Nagoya and then a Hikari train).

If you don't use a JR Pass then you would want a Hikari train to Nagoya and then transfer to a Nozomi.

Or, Odawara to Shin Yokohama for a Nozomi might be better Nagoya

I think it is the Hinoki room in the back of Momijiso that overlooks the stream and woods.

I recommend the Rihga Royal in Hiroshima. It is in the city. Easy walk to the Peace Park and practically next door to the Carp baseball stadium, not far from the castle. The Sheraton is next to Hiroshima station on the shinkansen side. The Granvia is even closer to the shinkansen tracks but not as nice, imo. It would be a short walk across the station to get the local that you would use for Miyajima.

But Nozomi trains aren't possible for JR passes, right? I think we have no choice BUT to get a JR pass if we're doing all this train travel.

If we do get the pass we'd have to stick with the recommended

Your proposed routing (Hikari train to Nagoya and then Nozomi train to Hiroshima) leaves Hakone at 8:30 AM and gets us in at 1:30 PM. The JR-qualified (non Nozomi) routing would have us take a Kodama train to Yokohama and then a Hikari to Osaka and finally a Sakura to Hiroshima...and would have us leave Hakone at 8:15 AM and get in at 2:30 PM.

Maybe I'm also overestimating the time I need to see the Peace Park. Am I short-changing myself if we get in at 2:30 PM, dump stuff at the hotel and enjoy the rest of the afternoon seeing the Peace Park and Museum and then having a nice dinner?

I'd prefer to keep Kyoto at the end if possible. I know, I'm a sentimentalist...but I have this vision of Kyoto and its magic and I'd really like that to be our last memory of Japan on our first trip there.

...and thanks for the hotel reccos, mrwunrfl!

Yes, am pretty sure that you want to use a JR Pass, but offered the Nozomi info as a potential time saver disregarding cost.

I believe that the museum closes at 6PM.

Sunset is at 5:04 PM in Hiroshima on the 19th.

Somewhat related question: why time can you normally check into ryokan? This sort of ties into not only when we'd check in at Miyajima but also how much quality time we have in the onsen at ryokan in Hakone.

How are you figuring that travel time?

At hyperdia, I toggle off Nozomi, use 8:15 as departure time, Hakone-Yumoto as departure and Hiroshima as destination the first result (shortest travel time) departs at 9:40.

That is the Tozan train followed by a Hikari from Odawara (without backtracking to Shin-Yokohama) that goes to Shin-Osaka and then a Sakura arriving 2:28.

Or maybe you are searching with From=GORA. In that case, searching for departure time of 8:15 shows the first result as departing Gora at 8:50.

I wonder what the taxi time and fare would be from Gora to Odawara.

Most ryokans ask you to check in between 3 and 5 or 6 pm. If you arrive earlier, most will hold your luggage until check-in time. Check out time is usually 10 or 11am. When you check in, you'll typically set the time for dinner (usually between 6:00 and 7:30).

(I'm not a fan of staying only one night in a ryokan, in large part because of the schedule rigidity. For me, staying just one night really doesn't give you much of a chance to relax, and that's the special aspect of a nice ryokan.)

Totally hear you, Don. What's difficult for me to fathom, on the flipside, is having 2 meals in a row like that. It's just way too much--not to mention the cost.

For a less restrictive/regimented experience, do consider KimJapan's suggestion of Hoshinoya. This is much more of a modern environment, and I find it a more relaxed environment than a traditional ryokan.

(Though I've stayed only at Hoshinoya in Karuizawa rather than the one just outside Kyoto. Hoshinoya Karuizawa is a terrific place if you're looking for an upscale getaway with great onsen, hiking trails, and a gorgeous setting. Karuizawa is about an hour train ride from Tokyo.)

If you are spending the money to stay at Gora Kadan I would strongly recommend not having an early departure but instead relax, enjoy another bath, a leisurely breakfast, even two nights to properly enjoy the ryokan and see something of Hakone. A single night is ok if you don't want to sightsee but there is a lot. Putting Kyoto ahead of Hiroshima would let you spend more time in Hakone.

Also to note, ryokan at the level of Gora Kada will never serve you the same meal both nights if you stay for two nights. Their objective is to make you happy, ecstatic actually, and they will very carefully orchestrate the meals to both allow their chef to show off skill but also to match your taste and appetite. They will ask you if there are things you can't eat, and if you want to have a small meal on one night all you need to do is say so and they will do that. They really aim to please!

I agree with KimJapan that if you are staying at Gora Kadan(I am totally jealous btw)then I wouldn't think of leaving the doors until after 9 am. Most places have you check out by 10 but GK may be 11.

You would have to take the public train from Gora to Odawara and transfer to the shinkansen to get to Hiroshima. Gora Kadan is very close to the Gora station btw.... maybe a 5 minute walk. I have done this commute several ways so I can tell you that taking the train system can take as little as one hour if you make the next connection in Hakone-Yumoto but I have also missed that connection due to a line of people already being there for the next train and having to wait 20 minutes for the next one. We have also taxied from the Hyatt in Gora to the JR Odawara station in the morning. That ride cost us a little more than ¥7000 and took less than 25 minutes.

Either way, I see you not getting into Hiroshima now until 3:30 or maybe 4:30 so and you would be limited to the shopping venues near the PP and the sights around the station for an evening. You can do the PP in the morning if you like and then head over to Miyajima. You will have plenty of time. The PP would take 2hours at the most unless you really slow down and linger....then 2 1/2 hours. You can also take a private ferry from the river next at the Peace Park to get directly to Miyajima from there. It runs daily and hours are on the Japan Guide but its also easy to get back to the JR station and catch the local to JR Miyajimaguchi station and take the free JR ferry(with your JR pass) over:

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3454.html

You are staying at Momijiso which is the total opposite of Gora Kadan so you can drop your bags off there when you get to the island in the early afternoon and continue on to explore the island and Mt Misen. Momijiso is on the trail up/down from Mt Misen gondola so very easy to get back to after your explorations. Miyajima town is best seen after the ferry leaves at 5:00 anyways taking the last day tourists away. Then you can explore the little town by yourselves and the few ryokan guests staying on the island overnight. All of this is located within a 10-15 minute walk so the island's sights are within a very small area.

If I had the option of giving up time in Hiroshima or Kyoto, I would always pick giving up time in Hiroshima.....not even close for me.

More thoughts later

Aloha!

Committing to two expensive kaiseki meals on consecutive nights might be a bit much for me and I like kaiseki dinners. Also, one night in a remote location that is dead at night is ok but I would have no interest in a second unless my regular go-to-sleep time was 8PM (granted YMMV if traveling as a couple).

One way to make your itinerary work better is to travel later in the day (though this has a luggage logistics issue).

Nov 18 Hakone (Gora Kadan)
leave Tokyo early, sightsee Hakone that day, night in Gora

Nov 19 Hiroshima (Hotel TBD)
easy morning have some more time for Hakone perhaps, travel to Hiroshima in the afternoon or evening (e.g. departing Odawara as late as 6PM and arriving Hiroshima at 10:36 PM or departing Gora at noon allows you to spend an evening in Hiroshima).

Nov 20 Miyajima (Momiji-so)
Morning and early afternoon sightseeing in Hiroshima, travel to Miyajima getting to Momijiso before dark.

Nov 21 sightsee Miyajima, leave for Kyoto late afternoon.

Besides the ferry between Miyajima and Miyajimaguchi you can also sail between Miyajima and Hiroshima.
http://www.setonaikaikisen.co.jp/jikoku/kousoku.htm

The 5PM departure from Miyajima to Hiroshima might be particularly scenic as it would be at sunset (I have not been on that boat but I took the hydrofoil from Matsuyama to Hiroshima at sunset and it was gorgeous). From the Hiroshima port you just take a streetcar.

I see ht had some similar thoughts as I was writing.

One more thought to free up time earlier: you can skip Osaka completely or visit there from Kyoto. Easy enough to go there for dinner if you really want to and don't mind the travel time. It is only 28 minutes from Kyoto to Osaka station on a JR "rapid" train.

Thanks guys. We're definitely getting SO close to finalizing this.

I think I've narrowed down two options based on your feedback. I agree, two nights of kaiseki is just way too much. Never mind the fact that I don't even think we can afford Gora Kadan (just got a quote and my morning Cherrios almost came out my nose) -- so looking at Hakone-Ginyu as a backup. But even there, we just can't afford 2 nights.

We'd go to Hakone very early that morning, tour around until the afternoon, spend the afternoon in the hot springs, have dinner, then spend the next morning bathing and eating again before heading out.

So we either go to Hiroshima and just spend the night there and tour the PP in the morning before heading to Miyajima (which, honestly, is fine with me because I have no interest in Hiroshima other than the PP and the museum. I don't need another big city on our tour to tell you the truth.)

Option 2 is we go to Osaka from Hakone. Spend the late afternoon and evening there (and get our foodie craze on then instead of at the end of the trip), head to Hiroshima from there and then just have our final night in Kyoto.

Either works, really. I guess we just need to figure out what's more important to us.

Mrwunrfl is right when saying luggage logistics could be an issue unless you utilize the takuhaibin luggage forwarding services I know you've seen mentioned here before. You won't need any clothes at Gora Kadan

They will provide your yukata for wear on the property. In fact they will provide you all toiletries and such. Lots of Japanese locals just take a backpack or one small rollie per couple. You can send your bigger bags to meet you at your Hiroshima hotel then send it to Kyoto hotel from there traveling lightly again through Miyajima. Cheap when you figure in the convenience level of traveling lightly when your really not. One of the pleasures of traveling in Japan.

It's great to have differing yet knowledgeable opinions on this forum and that's what I love about it. You get all the facts then get to figure which way to go. We on the other hand,as a couple would kill for two nights at Gora Kadan. We have been to many ryokan and have stayed both one and two nights. I have no problem being pampered for two days in a row. I fit into the roll of daimyo and shogun very well. I love being pampered and catered to then scrubbed and cleaned and bathed then long soaks in hot springs under the stars with your significant other then start all over again. I must have been real good in a past life is the feeling I always get on that second ryokan night.....

I agree that you can do a day trip to Osaka. Linda and I have even gone to dinner in Osaka from our Hyatt Kyoto hotel by train. Easier and more convenient than you would think.

Aloha!

This sounds like such a wonderful trip, and I'd guess that one of the last things you'd want is the stress of having to rush. Have you considered skipping Hiroshima/Miyajima on this trip? I'd agree that H/M are surely wirth a visit, but it might be worth it to compare side-by-side itineraries -- with and without the Hiroshima part. Neither Japan nor Hiroshima are going anywhere and would be there for another time.

When I spoke of staying 2 nights, I didn't realize you were thinking of Gora Kadan. 2 people for 2 nights -- oy! I think that GK may actually be closer to the next-to-last stop on the train to Gora (though still an easy enough walk from the Gora stop, as well). Be sure to save some time if at all possible for the wonderful outdoor sculpture park/museum that's just down the street from Gora Kadan.

One thing that Peter and I agree on is that the Hyatt in Gora is a terrific place to stay, if you decide to save the splurge for somewhere else (or if you wanted to stay multiple nights in Hakone, but only 1 at a ryokan). They have a wonderfully cozy atrium area with a sort of contemporary faux fireplace, and many of the guests will hang out there for late afternoon drinks/snacks. Hyatt has some attributes of a more traditional Japanese lodging -- you can wear your yukata everywhere in the hotel, and it's got a very nice onsen -- and it's a welcoming place.

Yes, the Hyatt in Hakone is very nice and a great place to stay, especially if you want to focus on the sights of Hakone rather than getting the most out of the ryokan stay. When you spend big money on a ryokan, at least for me, I really want to get all I can out of the stay and use all of the facilities so ryokan stays don't really combine with sightseeing for me - especially if it's just one night.

Let me ask you...are you choosing Hakone because you have interest in Hakone or because of the ryokan? This could help you decide where to stay - and even if to go there at all.

There is no shortage of amazing onsen ryokan in Japan, and many of them have easier access than Hakone and you might consider one of them if your motivation for visiting Hakone is the ryokan. Moot though if you want to see Hakone more than you care about where you stay.

Let me preface by saying Gora is out. We can't afford it. Hakone Ginyu is the 2nd runner up but I honestly have no idea how to even find out a price from them--or how to contact them. Apparently (even though they advertise them) Japanese Guest Houses.com now said that the ryokan doesn't use them anymore. And I can't find an email address on their website -- and Japanican.com doesn't allow you to book anything past June. A bit frustrating...

So that said...

Kim, it's not necessarily one way or the other. I mean, the idea of being that close to Mount Fuji and the romance of getting to Hakone on the various trains, cable cars and ropeway...in addition to the beautiful lake, etc. all seem like draws. But, yes, part of the draw was the ryokan itself.

But honestly, don't I face the same issue with WHEREVER I go after Tokyo? Our planned itinerary doesn't exactly allow for me to go somewhere even further away (such as Beniya Mukayu or Arima Onsen) that next day. I don't want to lose another day in transit. At least with Hakone, we're near Tokyo (only an hour or so away) and we get to enjoy that day...as opposed to traveling a few hours via train and then trying to salvage a half-day somewhere random.

What are everyone's thoughts on Izu as a potential onsen stop post-Tokyo? There's one place in particular I have my eye on...it's beautiful. But hot damn...another expensive one!

Hmmmm time is precious on that first trip isn't it?

Izu is beautiful. Truly scenic by train down the coast or by rental car if you have time. It's the place Tokyoites have been going to for long weekends for literally centuries. I remember reading somewhere that it was the warm Japan current flowing outside that part of the ocean that keeps the peninsula's climate and water warmer year round or something of the sort. You know me, into the weather....

Yes you can get to Narita comfortably for a flight home if your flights not too early in the day. Even from Kawazu there are direct trains in the mornings bound directly to Shinegawa and Tokyo where you can transfer to the next NEx train bound for NRT.

IIRC we paid a small supplement fee maybe ¥600 for the private line portion of the track that the JR train traveled on within Izu.

Pick your wish list with all its wishes and we'll see if it can work. If it can then it can if no can then no can, wait till next time.

But I'm sure someone here will figure it out for you

Aloha!

Oh almost forgot....if still interested you can also book Hakone Ginyu through the Ryokan Collection

http://www.ryokancollection.com/eng/

Aloha!

HT,

I'm not actually headed to Narita from there. I'm going *to* whatever onsen we pick from Tokyo after we first arrive in Japan.

Izu also looks wonderful, but looking at the train schedule it looks like it's equally as far (even though further south than Tokyo) from Hiroshima. Is that correct?

Thanks for the tip on Ryokan Collection. I'll put in an inquiry and see if I have another Cheerios-spitting moment.

Hakone Ginyu basic charge ¥35,000 - ¥45,000 per person per night. Supplement before holidays, Golden Week, New Year, Obon...

This is a long thread and maybe I missed it, but where are you staying in Kyoto?

There are some nice hot spring onsen ryokan in Ohara, which is a really lovely and quiet area about 40 min up north into the mountains outside of Kyoto. Lovely pastoral area, a nice shop-lined path up to the temples, nice walking path by a canal w/waterwheels, some very cool temples (Sanzenin and Jakkoin in particular, and several others who serve tea as part of their admission), otonahi waterfall, lovely neightborhoods to walk though. Very quiet and breathtaking, lovely area.

Seryo is a really nice onesen royakan in Ohara, next to Sanzenin temple. SOme of th guestrooms there have private open air hot spring baths. Ohara no Sato is another onsen ryokan (and they specialize in Miso-Nabe, a splendid series of one pot food dishes w/many different fresh ingredients). I was in Ohara in April, but I have seen pics of the fall foliage colors in Ohara and it is magnificent.

http://www.seryo.co.jp/english/index.html

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3932.html

http://www.oohara-no-sato.co.jp/english/

You have lots of good options and plenty of time (months) to decide.

My comment on Izu is that you have the same issue about getting to Hiroshima as you have with Hakone. And, your answer to "why Hakone" was a good one: (hopefully) seeing Fujisan, riding the circuit, hot springs, ryokan, seeing the lake and some geothermal features on the route.

And: you dismissed Tokyo-> Arima Onsen, but it is a viable option. Your idea of going to Osaka that day is a good one.

Cheerios spitting moments are common for me in planning trips to Japan, lol

I think I got your and Kathie's threads mixed up, sorry.

From Tokyo I would agree with Arima Onsen being the closer to Hiroshima thus maximizing your time in Hiroshima. From Shin-Kobe to Hiroshima is only 80 minutes on the shinkansen. Tokyo to Shin-Kobe about 195 minutes with JR pass.

Takitoritei looks like a nice place for an evening ryokan stay and not as expensive as GK or Hakone Ginyu and you can get a look(actually walk) around an authentic onsen town and if you get in early enough even have a Kobe steak lunch in a steak restaurant around the JR Sannomiya station in Kobe before heading to Hiroshima or a late lunch before heading to Arima Onsen on your arrival into Kobe.

Aloha!

That yen is slowly chugging along up to 91.195 today hopefully on its way past 100 yen to the dollar soon

Aloha!

Ohara works, like Osaka or Arima, as a midpoint stop:

Depart Tokyo station 8:33, Hikari to Kyoto arrives 11:13, lunch at Kyoto station or not, transfer to bus or subway+bus and be in Ohara by 12:30 - 1PM.

Leave Ohara around 9:45 be in Hiroshima by 13:30.

So it looks like we got the last room at Hakone-Ginyu. How on earth it booked up 10 months in advance I probably will never understand, but ok...

So we're locked for Tokyo and Hakone. Upon a bit more pondering, I'm more open to caving into the idea of going to Kyoto from Hakone. The driver there is that I don't want to do 2 ryokan (Hakone and Miyajima) so close to each other.

So here's the revised itinerary:
Nov 15 Arrive Tokyo
Nov 16 Tokyo
Nov 17 Tokyo
Nov 18 Hakone
Nov 19 Kyoto
Nov 20 Kyoto
Nov 21 Kyoto
Nov 22 Kyoto/Nara
Nov 23 Hiroshima
Nov 24 Miyajima
Nov 25 Osaka
Nov 26 Depart for LAX

One question:
Would you think it's worth spending the 4th night in Osaka in Nara? I've only ever envisioned it as a day trip.

I really don't want to stay in another ryokan and I see a ton of ryokan as options in Nara. Happy as punch to stay at the Hyatt in Kyoto and do a day trip from there...but curious to get your input.

Hmmm... why aren't you doing a day trip to Nikko? More interesting than Hakone in my opinion.

Hakone isn't a day trip. If you read back (I realize no one wants to go through 90 responses) you'll see the genesis of that decision.

BRW, the question above was meant to say "4th night in Kyoto" (not Osaka.)

>>I really don't want to stay in another ryokan and I see a ton of ryokan as options in Nara.

Am not sure if that was a typo and should be "do want". If you "do want" then it is a good option. If you don't then there are Western hotels in Nara, but no Hyatt.

Nara to Hiroshima is about 3 hours. One route is via Shin-Osaka. The other way is via Kyoto. Kyoto to Hiroshima is about 2 hours. So, do you want to spend that ~1 hour difference by returning to Kyoto or enroute to Hiroshima? Another night in Hyatt Kyoto (followed by 3 one-night stays) or 4 consecutive one-night stays?

Other options to consider and probably toss:
Nara (hotel) after Hakone
Nara for 1 or 2 nights, dep Kyoto night of the 21st
Kyoto for the last night, day-trip Osaka at some point or no Osaka

I am very surprised that a Monday night in Hakone is sold out ~10 months in advance.

I am not surprised at Hakone Ginyu selling out. I have tried several times over the years to get a res there with them always being sold out.

I have day tripped to Nara from Kyoto and the Hyatt before. It was enough for me and I plan to get back one day for the western part of the city and its major temples. If you are really interested in seeing more of Nara and its significant sights you should do at least an over night there. But for a first trip you have enough on your plate already to fill your time imho. Lots to do and see in Kyoto and you have to make it back to the Hyatt by 5pm for the happy hour(50% off)in the basement bar

Aloha!

Thank you, hawaiiantraveler-san, for reminding me of the Hyatt's wonderful Touzan bar -- as pleasant and welcoming a place as any traveler could hope for.

I like the way you think, HT!

Late to the thread but hope I can contribute too!

We went to Japan for the first time in October and absolutely fell in love with it. I'm already dreaming about when we can go back but with a new job, it may be a while.

We went for 17 nights, so had a little more time, which meant we could include Tokyo, Takayama, Nara, Kyoto, Koyasan, Osaka, Hiroshima and Miyajima in our itinerary. (For full itinerary and web resources, see http://goo.gl/Dy8yV).

We enjoyed the whole trip but particularly adored Kyoto. You won't regret focusing your itinerary there.

Regarding ryokan stays, we included quite a few. It was a splurge, in terms of cost, but then we found that we spent far less on food than expected, and as a food blogger, I'm obsessed with food!

Our favourite ryokan meal was in Nara, at Ryokan Kankaso. Our favourite ryokan overall was Shiraume in Kyoto. It's in the heart of Gion, which is a perfect location. It's owned and run by a wonderful wonderful woman who has travelled internationally and lived in the UK so has good English and a great understanding of what international visitors enjoy. It's very traditional but with excellent attention to detail on comforts like thicker futon mattresses, large towels, hair dryer and so on. The other huge benefit is that she offers B&B rate as well as dinner rate. So we had the kaiseki ryori meal one night, and ate elsewhere the second night. (After that, for budgetary reasons, we transferred to a Western hotel in Kyoto station for 3 nights). I can also recommend Watanabe in Miyajima, family business, very friendly, great food and very good location.

For all the ryokan bookings, we chose to pay more for en-suite accommodation with beautiful wooden bathtubs for private use. I wasn't keen on the idea of using the shared bathrooms, given my body size. And I wasn't sure about availability of the private (but not ensuite) bathrooms one can book for a specific time slot.

I wrote about what to expect from a ryokan stay here: http://goo.gl/bko9v

Because we had the time, we did go to Koyasan and are very pleased we did. A unique experience. The train journey was beautiful, not at all scary, nor was the funicular (they call it a cable car but it's a funicular) up from the train station to the town. From there you take a local bus to the various temples where most visitors stay. We stayed at Shojoshin-in, which is the closest to the beautiful cemetery.

We adored Nara, partly because of the fun of the semi-tame deers and watching the way other visitors interacted with them, of course, the actual temples, and our ryokan there was beautiful. We were lucky to be the only guests that night so it felt like some magical private experience.

Personally, the only place I didn't fall for was Osaka but then we only had one night there and less than a full day so I'm aware we didn't give it a fair chance. I did have fun at the pot noodle museum. Our hotel was a budget Western one suggested by Japanese Guest Houses and was probably the best value accommodation of the trip - we chose a Western room, non-smoking, and it was huge and comfortable too. The other budget choice was our second stint in Tokyo, when we stayed in one of the larger rooms in the Asakusa Dormy Inn. The bathrooms are small but the beds were super comfortable and the larger room was a good size.

If I can help answer any more about our experiences, do let me know.

x

Thanks Kavey. What an awesome post. Definitely will chew on that.

I have to say planning this trip--at least hotel-wise--is extremely frustrating. I'm already finding a bunch of places that are booked up.

Since we decided to move Kyoto earlier (and therefore moved Miyajima later) Momiji-so is now sold out on the date we want.

HOW ON EARTH ARE ALL THESE PLACES SOLD OUT SO EARLY? MY GOD!

Now I need recommendations for other ryokan on Miyajima. Looking at Iwaso, but guessing that's another place that's out of our price range. The nice thing about Momiji-so was that it was affordable (well affordable for Japan)

How/where did you get that info for Momijiso?

JGH.com. They *had* availability for our initial date...but not the new one (Nov. 24th)

If you have different info or other channels to reserve with them, mrwunrfl, please, I'm all ears. I assumed JGH was fairly forthcoming and honest -- but I can only go on what they give me.

In my limited travels, I've never encountered such flat-out unavailability for so many properties so far in advance. And I thought that April was the hot season -- not November.

That is a holiday weekend and it is primetime for fall colors and it is not that big - a tour group could fill it up. I shoulda mentioned that there was a benefit to going there earlier because of the timing. I could imagine that the answer would be no to non-Japanese at that time, those days (I suspect they could have rooms available now but know that they will be able to sell out to Japanese eventually).

I thought that gambo-ad.com was their home, but it is a lodging booking case. You could contact Momijiso directly. Maybe go to a Japanese travel agent in L.A. (in OC I would go to H.I.S. Travel) and get help (maybe an offer to pay in advance might help).

I doubt that Japanese Guest Houses is being dishonest - if there are rooms to book, it's in their interest to book them! It may be that the guest house only wants to sell a certain number through that avenue, in which case JGH can only go by the answer they're given. I have a huge amount of time for JGH as they kindly answered a lot of questions from me, and I had some date changes too, even after finalising one of the bookings. Their prices seem really reasonable, too.

As for how everything is booked up -- some of these places are small! The ryokan we picked on Miyajima has just three guest rooms. That's it! Our Kyoto ryokan has six. Heck, when I've planned Botswana safaris for camps with similar numbers of tents, I've found some booked out more than 18 months ahead of time! If somewhere is considered one of the more desirable options, it's all supply and demand!

The good news is that there are so many great options that you'll still love what you do book.

Keep at it, persevere, it's worth it!

Would you like me to check?

Also look at Auberge Watanabe.

Hi Filmwill, I just stopped by to see how your planning is going. Japan is complicated! We have made reservations for 10 of our 15 nights at Hyatts - Tokyo, Kyoto, Hakone. The Hyatt in Kyoto is huge, but room categories were already sold out.

Good luck!

Watanabe is where we stayed in Miyajima, we thought it lovely.

FYI, I did check availability through gambo-ad.com as well and they informed that Momiji-so is sold out as well.

Holding a room at Iwaso in the meantime -- but Watanabe also looks lovely, and probably a LOT more affordable.

Slightly unrelated question I forgot to ask: I assume I'll need a 14 day JR pass for my itinerary? Or can I get away with 7? Is it worth it?

calling mrwunrful....

Sigh. Watanabe is closed on November 24th.

Who knew Miyajima was going to be my accommodation Achilles Heel?

7-day JR Pass, activated on for first day of travel on Nov 19, the day you travel from Hakone to Kyoto. That will get you back to Osaka on day 7 of the pass. I think emd knew the answer.

Thanks. But wouldn't I activate the pass the day I go from Tokyo to Hakone?

Worth it? Yes, it will save you about 10,000 yen each.

I learned that some ryokan are closed on Sunday nights so that they can take a day off.

No, you don't really need it for then. You need it for Miyajima to Osaka.

You can take the Odakyu Railways train to Hakone-Yumoto, especilly from Shinjuku, if that is where you are staying. Odakyu runs a limited express train that was/is called the Romance Car. JR is not nec your best option.

You will do the exchange of the voucher for the pass when in Tokyo and before the 19th. But you want it to be activated to start on the 19th.

Are you staying in Shinjuku or elsewhere in Tokyo?

We actually may be mrwunrfl. Right now, have a reservation at the Park Hyatt -- but will continue to explore hotel options and rates in the coming months.

Shinjuku is easy enough to get to from other part. The Odakyu train is onlhy 2000 yen. Hiroshima to Osaka is 10,000 yen. Your other travel won't get anywhere close to the 17,000 yen diff between the 7-day and 14-day passes.

Find Odakyu train info here:

http://www.odakyu.jp/english/romancecar/

Wow the PH in Shinjuku is really nice. We stayed there for two nights on our last trip for the first time. Best hotel we have stayed at in Tokyo. Just down the street is the Hyatt Regency which is cheaper....even with going for a Regency Club room. Not as lux as the Park Hyatt granted but close and you get more bang for your yen with the Regency Club rooms and club room privileges like the free flow cocktails from 5 to 8pm along with heavy hors d'oeuvres and club breakfasts in the morning, also tea and cakes all day from 6:00am till 22:00......options

Aloha!

Ok, since you are having troubles with Miyajima lodgng, I will throw this in. You can do a day trip from Kyoto to both Hiroshima and Miyajima. I did it. You catch train at Kyoto Station at around 7 am ad get back around 9 pm. Long day, straight to Hiroshima, to Pace Park for couple hrs, then to ferry to Miyajima, several hrs there to the deer, shrine, soemthing to eat, and back to ferry, then to Hiroshima train station and back to Kyoto.

Easy to do, long day. It was a great option for us. On next trip to japn, we did yoto to HImeji, saw castle, then on to Hirshima, and left out Miyajima. Also good long day, great option. But castle is still covered in scaffolding...

Thanks emd. Appreciate the suggestion!

We do have a place held (Iwaso) but I can't seem to find any Fodorites who have actually stayed there.

I was hoping that Kavey's suggestion of Watanabe would work out -- but it's the one day they are closed (as our luck would have it!)

Iwaso looks lovely, but it feels a bit overkill considering they have an onsen and we will have already experienced that in Hakone. Far be it from me to complain about that luxury, but I was hoping for something a bit more down to earth (and cheaper, of course.)

p.s. Yes, I thought so mrw, but I wanted to hear from you...you are the JR man in my book.

Japanese Guest House had a number of suggestions for us for Miyajima, though in the end we booked independently / directly with Watanabe, which was a much lower price than the splurge options I'd asked them to investigate for us.

One we looked into was Kurayado Iroha. But that's quite expensive I seem to recall. Best of luck. x

Japanese Guest House had a number of suggestions for us for Miyajima, though in the end we booked independently / directly with Watanabe, which was a much lower price than the splurge options I'd asked them to investigate for us.

One we looked into was Kurayado Iroha. But that's quite expensive I seem to recall. Best of luck. x

Iwaso looks nice. What kind of room did you get?

You very well might find that you enjoy onsen. I mentioned that I am not inclined to stay in a traditional ryokan on consecutive nights, but I could go for an onsen soak every day in Japan, twice a day or more.

My bath (separate from toilet/sink area IIRC) at Momijiso had a shower and a Japanese bathtub. Below the shower was a faucet (IIRC) and there was a stool and bucket so that you can clean up that way (lots of soapy soap and buckets of hot water to rinse) and then soak in the tub. Private, but not a roomy onsen bath.

Iwaso is larger than Momijiso but it is also closer to the shrine and town (going down to the that area and back up to Momijiso at night was not exactly easy). Seems like Iwaso, the honkan, garden, are worth a visit even if not staying there.

JGH shows that its rates are A/A+ and I would assume the A+ is in the honkan (the original, main building) and the A is in the shinkan (newer and attached to the honkan i think, an annex according to JGH).

According to a tripadvisor post the hanare rooms/lodging are "tucked back in the forest". Separate from the honkan. Sounds like they are separate little cottages, but could be a multiple-lodging building AFAIK. Could be A or A+ depending on how rustic or modern.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g1022438-d325033-r83925729-Iwaso-Hatsukaichi_Hiroshima_Prefecture_Chugoku.html

We stayed at Iwaso in 2008. Had a room in the newer wing(shinkan) connected to the honkan. Trip report is here, look for the April 14th entry:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia/mr-mrs-hts-2008-japan-cherry-blossom-tour.cfm

Iwaso is a step or two below your experience you will have at Hakone Ginyu so expect as much and you won't be disappointed. I think it was crellston or another fodorite has also stayed at Iwaso and in the private bungalows IIRC and told of experiences which drove me to pick Iwaso at that time.....seems so long ago. We also were debating on staying at Kinsuikan but chose Iwaso in the end. Kinsuikan we saw on the waterfront as we walked through the little town. They have a little restaurant that is also open to the public there. I remember thinking at the time that I liked the Iwaso location in the forest better although everything on Miyajima is so close by.

Aloha!

Hope it's not rude to jump in on a thread with one's own query on same subject? Am finding the threads so helpful and am hoping I can run our itinerary - for 16 nights in September (1st-16th) by you all.
We have spent a week in Tokyo before (2005) and so are not planning on spending more than a day there on this trip (on top of starting/ending there). We really want to do some hiking and so I'm trying to build in 5/6 days in the mountains.

My thoughts so far (which have changed every day this week: I need to come to a decision!):
1. Arrive Tokyo
2. Sightseeing Tokyo
3. Bus to Kawaguchiko
4. Day of walking, admiring Mt Fuji (too late to consider climbing it!)
5. Travel to Kamikochi (bus, train, train, bus... - not an easy transfer)
6. Hiking
7. Hiking
8. Alpine route to Kanazawa (use luggage forwarding service)
9. Sightseeing Kanazawa
10.Train to Kyoto, sight seeing Kyoto
11. Sightseeing Kyoto
12. Overnight trip to Koya-san
13. Back to Kyoto, sightseeing
14. Train to Hiroshima, sightseeing Hiroshima
15. Day trip to Miyajima
16. Hiroshima to Tokyo by bullet train (want to travel the fastest one. Partner has a work interest in transport)
17. Fly home

The variations I've toyed with are leaving out Kawaguchiko and head straight for Kamikochi but overnighting in Matsumoto to break the journey and see the castle there, and also whether to do the Alpine route or not. I really fancy doing it but the logistics - with luggage - may be challenging, and then the question has been whether to overnight in Toyama or Tateyama and then head straight to Kyoto, or go on to Kanazawa (as per above).

We are people who enjoy travelling and usually plan full-on trips that take in as much as possible. But I realise that this isn't, say, Switzerland: it's a very foreign land where the trains may also run on time but I won't understand a word that comes out of the PA system, or where to get off a bus!

Many thanks for any thoughts on the itinerary and if anyone has ideas for good hiking locations that fit in with the broad direction of travel I would very much appreciate them.

Angie