shanek

I have been having an interesting debate with Kathie and Thursday about the pro's and con's of self driving in Asia.
To seek further opinions and to stop hijacking dbarks thread on transport from Siem Reap to Bangkok, I thought I would start a new Thread on the topic.

I will cut and paste, below, parts of that conversation to save me some time, but do refer back to the original thread just in case something is taken out of context... only If you are interested of course.

THURSDAYS..."Not driving yourself in Asia has nothing to do with terrorism, and everything to do with the state of the roads and the behavior of your fellow-road users. Even when it's legal (in China you need to be an expat and jump through a bunch of hoops to be allowed to drive), and can find someone to rent you a car, in much of Asia you'd be a fool to try, especially when there are so many alternatives. (I'd consider driving in Malaysia, and I hear that Japan isn't too bad).

State of the roads - anything from rutted/potholed mud/dirt on up. Fellow road users - note I don't say drivers - depending on the country some subset of: pedestrians, pedestrians pulling carts, cyclists, cyclists pulling carts, motorbikes (usually overloaded), donkeys/horses/bullocks/camels pulling carts, stray cows, elephants, tuk-tuks/rickshaws/songthaews, cars, minibuses, big buses and lots of big trucks. Most don't have lights, and none have any idea of staying in lanes, assuming any are marked in the first place.

Nerve-wracking if you don't have an accident, and potentially disastrous if you do. And good luck navigating in some places. Since usually there is plenty of public transport, or you hire a car and driver for not much more than a car, there's no reason to think about driving yourself."

ME...."I love the freedom of driving in Asia and I dont consider myself a fool. There are certain places that I would avoid it, and Cambodia may be one of those, but on the whole, the road conditions in Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore are quite good and well signposted. The roads are certainly no worse than in places like central Australia.

If you keep your wits about you, drive slowly and give way to everything including stray cows and elephants, you will survive."

KATHIE...
"I agree that the roads in the three countries you mention are pretty good to very good, shanek. But you can't take a vehicle across the border from Thailand into Cambodia, and even if the road from Poipet to Siem Reap has been improved, it's still not in great shape. Thursdays description of the "traffic" along Cambodian roads doesn't do the chaos justice."

ME..."Yes Kathie, as I mentioned, even I would be likely to give Cambodian driving a miss.
I was replying more to Thursday's general comment about it being foolish to drive in Asia, apart from Japan and Malaysia.
I have driven in the 3 countries that I mentioned as well as Bali and Sri-Lanka, which was pretty "adventurous" and would consider doing so in Vietnam and Korea.
Yes Asian road conditions are different and you will need to alter your driving practices and show plenty of patience. I do not encourage the nervous or inexperienced to try it, but for the free willed amongst us it can be a liberating experience and should not be discouraged. Some of my fondest memmories of Asian travel have been had whilst self-driving."

KATHIE..."Sri Lanka?! I can't imagine. But better you than me. I also wouldn't consider VN, but perhaps that's because I spent my time there in the cities where you take your life in your hands by crossing the street!

Thursdays comment was about "much of Asia," and I'd agree. Also, remember that this is dbarks first trip to Asia. If you've been to the country you are visiting before and feel you could drive, and know the legal issues involved (especially re: liability in the case of an accident) fine. But for someone who has never been to Asia, I think it would be foolhardy to recommend self-drive."

THURSDAYS...."If you've driven in those places, more power to you. But to suggest that this is something that most visitors to most Asian countries should consider is a bit much. A lot of people get freaked out about road conditions in Asia when they're just being driven, never mind doing it themselves. And then there is the issue of what happens if something goes wrong."

ME...."City and country driving is very different, obviously. I feel alot less comfortable driving in Sydney or New York than rural Sri-Lanka.

dbarks, regardless of whether it is your first or tenth trip to Asia, it is more about your driving experience than Asian experience.

It will be different, that's a given. Fundamentaly though, your aim is to steer without hitting something, which doesn't differ no matter where you are. It is far more imposing watching other people do it than doing it yourself,IMHO. I trust my own ability more than some of the over-tired bus and taxi drivers in Asia.

If you feel confident in your driving ability, go for it. Certainly in Thailand. I may be labelled a fool for saying so but it is your choice, dont listen to others. Take caution, make sure you are insured and enjoy the pleasures of being totally independant in a foreign land."

What do you think?

Tangata

Well taking Asia in its widest sense and limiting my comments to countries where I have driven or been driven. Firstly, the countries in Asia that I have driven in, Hong Kong, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Japan. No problems at all with any of them.

Countries that I would be happy to drive in, but haven’t. Indonesia, Jordan, Turkey, Russia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, South Korea.

Countries where I would not get behind the wheel on any account. UAE (totally crazy and aggressive), Burma (too many right hand drive cars driving on the right), Cambodia (Crazy and also a mix of right hand and left hand drive cars), Vietnam (out of the cities may be OK but certainly not Saigon) , Laos, China and India – although I might be prepared to drive outside the cities in India. I once drove in Bombay when my driver got totally lost and couldn’t follow directions. Not an experience I wish to repeat.

AskOksena

>>>Driving in Asia...Would you? Do you? Where? Where not?<<<


Well, must confess, have survived most horrifying, and terrifying, drives, in yes : a certain Singapore 'residential' neighbourhood! (And, in a most acceptable E-Class MB, thank you, very much.) (And, thank you, certain 'well-heeled' relatives.)

Now, a note of caution for all of you out there in family friendly fodor land : should your 'driver' happen to be a certain, 'Girl', well, do remember to 'buckle up'. ... (and say a 'little prayer or two' - thank you, 'd.w.')

Savour your thrilling, uplifting times - perhaps, with a certain Singaporean airline.

macintosh (robert)


get out of the road/
if you want to grow old/

(Pink Floyd)

crellston

Interesting thread Shane. I tend to agree with you. As long as you are confident in your own driving abilities and take the time to undersatnd local driving attitudes and conditions, self driving provides so much more flexilbility. The ability to yurn off anywhere and explore off the beaten track is for me, one of the main reasons for travel.

My preference would be for self drive wherever possible and would always rent a car in Thailand and Malaysia and have driven through large parts of those countries (inc. bangkok) without any real incident. The driving standards in Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos are generally worse but it is more difficult to rent a self drive there (impossible in Vn) so I have not tried actually driving in those countries but have used cars with drivers with mixed success. Some drivers are fine and drive well, some clearly haven't a clue and the use of speed by many drivers to stay alert concerns me.

You do need to drive defensively and get to understand that the locals, wherever they are, drive by different rule from those of us in the west - e.g. like in Thailand where it is considered ok to drive on the wrong side of the road if you are only going a "short " distance. Take more care than you would at home I feel that you will be at no greater risk than in a car driven by a local (in some cases a lot less risk).

peter_m

Shane
I found the roads in Chiang Mai in better condition than the roads on the central coast of Aust.where I live,they were much better than I expected & well sign posted & most of the road out of town were 2 lanes both ways.

Kathie

Shane, thanks for starting a new thread, as our discussion on the other thread did get off topic.

For the sake of completeness, let me quote from my last post on the other thread: "Shanek, it wasn't the city driving in Sri Lanka, it was the country driving on the twisting one and a half lane roads. "The road was mostly ok, though it was narrow and we had to share the road with buses, trucks, tractor-like vehicles (called land masters), bicycles and motor bikes, ox carts, dogs who like to sleep on the road, people often crossing without looking, and the occasional wandering cow. All vehicles feel compelled to pass the vehicle in front of them. You’ll pass a bus that is picking up passengers, and a few minutes later it will roar past you just before a curve. Drivers use their horns to communicate whether it is safe to pass, etc. Everyone cooperates to make this insane system work. "

While I understand you encouraging others to do their own thing, think about the practicalities of driving from Bangkok to Siem Reap. First of all, it isn't possible. You can't take a car across the border - and I believe you can't rent a self-drive car in Cambodia (though that may have changed - you can now rent a self-drive car in VN). So I am responding to dbarks specific question about Bangkok to Siem Reap.

Also, while I understand your belief that you are a better driver than the "over-tired bus and taxi drivers in Asia" I do believe there is no substitute for understanding the rules of the road - which are different than those in Australia or the US."

Certainly there are plenty of Fodorites who have driven in various parts of Asia. I know that Bob has driven in northern Thailand (Golden Triangle area) and Phuket, and I believe, Samui. Many others have also reported on driving in these areas as well. Others have reported on driving in Malaysia. I don't know that I would drive in Singapore - not because of problems with traffic or roads, but because public transport is so good.

I think talking about driving in Asia is most helpful if we talk about specifics. Saying one would drive in Indonesia - we're talking more than 3000 islands, with different conditions. Talking about driving in Bali, say is specific, and people can give specific experiences.

There there is the question of what you want to do. In general, I'd prefer to hire a car and driver, as I want to be able to enjoy the scenery without worrying about missing a turn or whatever. I am selective about choosing drivers, and I am assertive about where I want to go (and don't). I know some people feel cowed by their drivers, and feel they can't refuse a shopping stop, for instance. Wherever possible, I like to take public transport in cities. I fell it gives more of a sense of a city without adding to the pollution and traffic.

Oh, and liability issues are different in different countries. I know Marmot has posted about liability issues in Indonesia and Hanuman has given info about Thailand, for instance. Anyone considering driving in any foreign country should make sure they understand the legal liability issues involved.

thursdaysd

Yes, good to start a new thread. Some clarification. The issue isn't whether having a car (or motorbike) gives you more freedom than public transport, obviously it does. Nor is it whether "some" people have successfully driven themselves in "some" parts of Asia, or even whether a "few" people have driven themselves in "most" of Asia - that's true too.

The issue is whether it's good advice, especially given the generally modest extra cost of a driver, and the wide availability of assorted varieties of "taxis", to advise "most" visitors to drive themselves in "most" of Asia.

And I don't care how careful a driver you are, accidents happen - that's why they're called accidents - and you're much better off in that case having a driver responsible. Equally, if you encounter a washed out road, or one buried under a mudslide, if you're with a car and driver you can just walk across and get new transport on the other side.

cruisinred

I would definitely like to rent a car and drive in Thailand. I've considered a rental car for my up coming trip to Bali, but have read several things about how, in the event of an accident, the forienger is always at fault and this could be $$$ when the police get involved. I'm surprised no one else had brought this up as a concern regarding driving in many/some places in Asia....It's not just the road conditions to worry about!

For reference, I regularly drive in NYC, have driven a 4x4 in rainy season in Costa Rica and a 16-passenger van in downtown Rome...so not a timid driver

Hanuman

The only place that I will not drive in is Hanoi. Too many motorbikes!

Kathie

cruisin, I noted the legal liability issue in my post. In some places if you injure a local you are morally and sometimes legally obligated to support that person (and their family) for the rest of their lives.

thursdaysd

cruisinred - I also noted that in the case of an accident you're much better off with a driver to take the blame. It's not just the police, it's the locals who may be outraged that a foreigner has killed a chicken - or worse.

Then there are places where your driver's local knowledge can really come in handy. Finding gas in a country where it's rationed, for instance. Not to mention finding secure parking places.

rhkkmk

from my experiences and my observations the following:

i have driven in phuket, krabi, hua hin, pattaya, koh chang, chiang rai and the golden triangle, samui, langkawi (malaysia).

places i would consider driving: bali, lombok, kuala lumpur, malecca, kuantan, penang, outside all vietamese cities, singapore, hong kong, myanmar, luang prabang, siem reap, chiang mai (i hate the place)but i find that often the signage is not good for westerners and maps are of poor quality...

places i would not drive: in and around bangkok (signage is not great and drivers are horrible), hanoi, any place in india with a population of more than 50,000, china, cambridge, toyko, and some places yet unvisited....

having said all of this i should add that drivers with cars are so inexpensive to hire in many SEA places that it makes no sense to drive yourself.... plus car hire prices tend to be stiff....

driving allows you total freedom during your holidays....that is why we like it so much....

cruisinred

Kathy & Thursadayd---sorry, I now see we noted the same issues, my apologies.

Kathie

cruisin, I'm glad you brought it up - if you missed it, so did others.

shanek

I suppose it is about risk vs reward. As you outline, there is a risk of complication in case of an accident, though I am yet to speak to anyone who has been placed in a compromised situation that was any more costly than an accident at home.

I hit a kangaroo in a hire car near Alice Springs and was charged a $400 excess even though I was not at fault, these things happen.

The reward is my independence, something I treasure.

It is not for everone, I dont think I have ever stated it as so. But, if you feel inclined towards giving it a go, it is alot easier and trouble free than some would suggest.

Kathie

A correction to an earlier posts I made. I mentioned that I'd read that it was now possible to rent a self-drive car in VN. It turns out this was incorrect. What I read was that one of the major car rental companies (Hertz? Avis?) now offers a car and driver rental in VN.

In thinking about this theme, I'm reminded of a man I know who took his first business trip to New York City some 25 years ago. He told the travel department he wanted a rental car, and they arranged one for him. He had understood from others that he "shouldn't drive in NYC" but he knew he was a good driver, so asked for the rental car. The rental cost over $100 for one day. He drove the car from the airport to his hotel, parked it overnight for something like $40, attended his meeting at the hotel, and drove it back to the airport that night. After the trip he told me that he now understood that it wasn't that the driving was so difficult in NYC, but that it made little sense to rent the car - it was more expensive than taking a taxi - or even a limo - and even if he'd have stayed another day or two, he probably wouldn't have driven it to a restaurant or whatever because parking was expensive and hard to find. Initially, being told he "shouldn't drive" felt like a challenge to his driving skills, but he realized it wasn't about his driving, it was about the pragmatics.

So for me the question isn't just about whether you can steer the car and "survive" as shane puts it, it's also about whether it makes sense. Clearly in some places (Northern Thailand, Phuket if you are staying away from the busy beaches) it can be very useful, but in others (especially big cities) public transport makes more sense (within Bangkok or Singapore, for instance).

lcuy

In so many countries in asia, a driver adds nearly nothing to the cost, and is often cheaper than just a car (the owners know they got more control and less risk with their own driver).

How does having a driver decrease your freedom? You get in the car, you tell the driver where you want to go. I find it increases my freedom with a driver. I want to stop at a no-name museum hidden in a crowded neighborhood with no parking and no street signs? Drop me off outside the entrance and I'll call you when I'm done. Take a snooze as we drive across a dusty plain? Do it. Want to go hiking or lay on a beach? Instead of worrying bout the safety of my luggage in the trunk, the driver takes care of it. If you decide, days from your return that you'd rather fly somewhere, you just pay the driver and he takes the car home. Easy. easy.

And in driving on the "wrong" side of the road or in a culture like India where they have an elaborate system of horn communication, you may be thinking you're driving just fine. Is it possible you are like the grandma driving down the interstate at 40 miles an hour, causing trouble near and far, but somehow feeling she's in control?

So you need to choose your driver carefully, but I think it can be well worth the small extra cost to have the freedom from dealing with the car.

shanek

It is not a question of "freedom" but one of independance.

If you have a driver booked to collect you at 9.30am but you wake early you need to reschedule or wait. If they are booked to pick up you up at 6.30am but you find the need to sleep in you begrudgingly wake up early or make them wait.

With a driver, you still have an obligation to someone elses time frame. You are booking someone for a set time or distance, there can be certain flexibility depending on the individual and the arrangement, but it will still not give you total independance.

lcuy mentions that you need to choose your driver carefully, I know someone that I trust 100%, who will not take me places that I didn't ask to go so to increase his commisions, someone who will stop when they are tired and who will drive in a manner that will not have me hanging on for dear life....That person is me!!

There is nothing "elaborate" about horn communication. If you want to let someone know that you are coming through you give them a short toot...not rocket science.

As I have said, in certain situations and places, I wouldn't bother. If you are staying in a major city and taking a handfull of daytrips, it would make more sense to hire a driver. But if you want to explore a country and get off the well beaten tourist track, in most places it is possible, practical and safe to do it on your own. You may get lost at times, but I have made someone of my greatest discoveries whilst lost.

thursdaysd

"in most places it is possible, practical and safe to do it on your own" - as I pointed out up-thread, it's not possible in China (unless you're an expat and jump through some hoops) and China is a pretty big chunk of Asia all on its own. Kathie pointed out that it's not possible in Vietnam, and suspect that's true in some other places as well.

A little checking turns up the ability to rent cars in Moscow and St. Petersburg, but the companies involved list no other Russian cities, and I suspect you might have trouble in Asian Russia. In any case, there's a section of Siberia with no roads at all. Again, a pretty big chunk of Asia. "Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore" and "Bali and Sri-Lanka" are a pretty small part of Asia.

shanek

Being a bit bit picky Thursday.

I suppose that you are right if you take my claim on the basis of geographical mass. I think if we were to be pedantic and make a total list of countries in Asia were it is possible against not possible, the figure may work out a little differently.

Make your own mind up, but dont listen to people that tell you it is foolish. If you are confident and capable you will find it rewarding in many asian countries.