i chose agra for my first visit... the town is sort of a dump...but the taj is fantastic, as is the fort and the baby taj...

this trip i will go to varanasi.... it too is a dump i am told by everyone who goes there... it has religious significance however... what ever that is...?? it does not have one of the wonders of the world however... it has a filthy river that people yearn their whole life to visit and bath in or be buried in after their bodies are burnt...

which appeals to you the most?

Bob, you haven't even been there yet, but your biases are showing!

I think it's perfectly reasonable to choose Varanasi over Agra - or Agra over Varanasi - depending on your interests. As an over-simplification, I'd say that Agra is about architecture and Varanasi is about the interface between the human and the spiritual.

I thought Varanasi was more interesting than Agra. If I had to choose one for a first trip it would be Varanasi.

I wonder if someone could provide more specific information on what Varanasi's like. I've been acting as an armchair travel advisor for my son who has about 10 days to travel in India before returning to Bombay.

He's settled on Delhi/Agra and Rajastan and could fit in one more destination. His companions are going north to Leh and Manali and south to Kerala, but I think that's too much travel in a short time and that Varanasi is a must see.

So I'm curious too: Why Varanasi?

I agree that there is nothing wrong with going to India and not going to Agra. (That is advice I give on this board fairly regularly.) I also agree that Varanasi is more interesting than Agra (although Agra has some very lovely old town bits that the vast majority of tourists don’t bother with which are quite interesting). Varanasi is one of the holiest places in India, and has number of major temples, and you will see an amazing array of devotees there for the circuit, in addition to the funeral ghats. It is also near Sarnath, where the historical Buddha preached his first sermon, so you can get a chance to see a sacred place for Buddhists. It’s hard to think of a place that better represents how much religion means to the average India. You won’t see nearly as much of that in Agra.

The other drawback for Agra in December is that it will be chock-a-block with tourists. It’s high season because of the great weather, and in addition to foreign tourists, many schools are out at that time and so locals will be packing in there as well. Sunrise may not be the serene experience you are expecting.

I sincerely hope you are not driving to Varanasi from wherever your itin is taking you in Rajasthan. Varanasi is not in Rajasthan (neither is Agra, both are in Uttar Pradesh), and the distances you are talking about are pretty huge. Jaipur to Varanasi, for example is about 600 miles and will take you 15-18 hours by car. Delhi is about the same. On top of that, you won’t want to spend long periods of time in a car in India. It is not like the US or Europe where you can whip along smooth highways at a decent speed. 4-5 hours a day is my personal limit. So please consider flying or trains for longer distances.

To give my thoughts to Marmot’s post, as explained above, Varanasi is just about the centre of devotion for Hindus, and a great opportunity to see many different sects. Although it is primarily a city devoted to Shiva, it does hold importance for other sects, and in addition the Shiva sects have their own variation. (And you also have Buddhists, where you will see the range from Tibetan to Sir Lankan sects in Sarnath.) On a personal level, I find it a very peaceful place.

I very much preferred Agra because of the Taj. I'm glad I went to Varanasi, but in hindsight I would have been ok skipping it.

Ultimately it depends on what interests you more; The Taj- one of the most readily recognizable buildings in the world, or Varanasi- one of the most holy cities for a vast number of pilgrims.

Tough choice but I'd definitely go to Agra, especially if the rest of your itinerary takes you through Delhi and Rajasthan. As at least one other poster has said, to those that have not been there, India is defined by the Taj.

Cicerone, Thanks for your valuable comments, as always. I don't want to highjack suep's thread with my son's itinerary questions and will start a new topic when his travel plans are firmer.

PS, He's having a fabulous summer in India. I'm just afraid that it may have displaced Indonesia as his favorite weird and wonderful destination.

If there's any way for you to see this year's episodes of Amazing Race (online maybe) , they visited Varanasi. I've never been but I felt it gave a great view into the life of the city and the river.

this site is all about biases, isn't it??

it would be agra for me all the way for a first time visitor, never mind the location of varanasi being way away from the OP's main travels..

if you asked any person what comes to mind when you mention india?? would they say some religious site, or would they say the Taj????? imo, most would say the Taj...

Varanasi

I wouldn't want to be without the experience of the Taj Mahal; to me, it was a place that I felt couldn't possibly live up to its hype--and found it to be even more. That's rare in my experience.

But Varanasi is a rare and unique experience in its own right. As others have mentioned, it's permeated with religious devotion, from the pure aloneness of the sadhu down to the pseudo-swami who claims to have been the personal advisor of a couple of random Hollywood types.

My trip report has a fair amount about both places--more visceral than factual, but at least it's one point of view: http://www.fodors.com/community/asia/july-2008-in-india-a-slightly-odd-trip-report.cfm (Or, if a picture is worth etc. to you, here's the photo link: http://travel.webshots.com/album/564974112vGKLqP)

We are going for the first time this coming November and my pre-visit prejudices/biases reflect Bob's. But I love being proved, one way or another.

Bob, I felt compelled to point that out, since Gpanda is no longer posting. I remember well his comment on your trip report that you go to the most spiritual country in the wodl and what do you do? Shop and eat. lol

thanks, kathie, you can take up where he left off...

i have no time or inclination to be spiritual

It would be a tough choice for me. The Taj is such a symbol of India, and gave me an emotional punch that I didn't expect. I also love Agra, and have gone back on several other trips. I was very happy I went there on my first trip, and didn't feel bad I missed Varanasi. When you come home, friends will ask you about the Taj Majal and you'll see it in the media. Will it bother you or you DH if you missed it?

I do really like Varanasi. it is one of the oldest continually occupied cities on earth, on a river with huge meaning to the worlds Hindus. it is also of significance to Buddists and Muslims as well.

Seeing the interaction of the people, the buildings, the religions and the river was really fascinating. If you go, stay ON the river. The fancier international hotels in the Cantonnment area are a half hour drive from the river, so you miss a lot of the experience.

You are not crazy at all. I have been to each place more than once and each has a totally different affect on me. The Taj never stops wowing & taking my breath away. Varanasi is the depth of spiritual India & totally facinating. Love them both.
On our most recent trip there we had 22 days & were able to combine both. If you need to make a choice one based on logistics would not be a bad thing. Since you are already in the Agra region stay over there & effectively have more time with your feet on the ground exploring rather than travelling. However.....if Varanasi is a place that has always tugged at you then go for it!
Have an amazing trip

i go with the logistics thing 100%

Well, our "logistics" allowed for a couple of days each in Varanasi and Agra. So I guess we had better get in the mindset of just enjoying each.

NoFlyZone that is exactly what we did & it was perfect for us! Enjoy!!

And for yet another opinion, I'd choose Varanasi. I went to both on my first trip to India and they both wowed me. The difference for me was that the Taj was a 1/2 day stunning visual experience (Agra, was a -5 IMHO) whereas Varanasi was a 2-3 day immersion in the essence of India. On my last trip to India, I returned to Varanasi for its "essencenceness", its vitality, spirituality and eye jollies. Fortunately for you, there are no "bad " choices between the two.

Visit Agra on your next trip to India.
Although you won't need one, it'll be a good excuse to go back!

Like some have already said, go to see the Taj because it is what symbolizes a visit to India. Also it is beautiful culturally as well as sentimentally...man's love for his wife forever. It's a thing of beauty.

Varanasi for different experience..religious experience....your choice.

rhkkmk...FYI significance of River Ganges...river ganges by the time it gets to Varanasi is polluted. However, ganges river became sacred in old times because the river water will not let bugs, crawlers etc to grow. It has to do with the rocks it goes over and the chemical mix keeps the water pure (unlike possibly any other river in the world). Hence it became known as the "sacred ganges". So I presume if you remove the solid sediment pollution, the river water would be restored to it's original pure condition. While the religious pilgrims take a drink of the sacred water when they visit Varanasi, I would NOT recommend that you do that. Just to be safe!!

Kathie ...glad you are on RHK's case. You are sooooo right about the food. I am looking forward to Varanasi. He may have a spiritual happening while we are there.

magic--- you and margaret can drink all the water you want from that river and even bath in it, magic rocks or not.... i'm sticking to bottled water and hotel showers (and i'm not that sure about the showers).... haha

please contact me: rhkonthailand@msn.com
i have some questions for you... thanks

Varanasi hands down. While the Taj may be the "symbol of India", I don't feel it honestly renders the experience of traveling through India, or of India iteself. It is completely centered around tourism, and while Varanasi also has its share of tourist influence, when there I still felt the strong sense of community and liveliness of a very old city with an incredible spiritual history. Take a sunrise boat ride down the Ganges and walk around the frantic streets!

Also, if you weren't already planning on it, check out Jaiselmer and Udaipur while in Rajasthan. I lived in Rajasthan for four months and these were two of my favorite destinations!

Another way to look at it:

Agra's sites are incredible monument to the past: The Taj Mahal, the Fort (as much a do-not-miss as the Taj Mahal, IMHO) etc.

Varanasi is a place where people do as they have done for years and years--you can see history as the present.

Hope this makes sense.

Realized this distinction in trying to help someone decide between Amritsar (Golden Temple) and Agra (TM Fort) and chose the former based on this way of looking at it. There's an excitement and a lesson you get at the "living" places that isn't there in the place that is an exquisite tourist attraction. it's not one "better" than the other--just a different type of experience.

Look, Agra is an overnight train ride from Varanasi,find a way to slot both in, You have 2 and a half weeks what's your itinerary? maybe there's somewhere else worth leaving out.

rhkkmk----sent you email per your request....would be delighted to answer any questions.

Regarding water....since 5 star hotels have their own filtered water supply, we never worry about drinking the water or showers etc at these hotels anywhere in Asia especially India.

Everywhere else, drink bottled water or hot tea or hot coffee. Request that any soft drinks you order have their bottle caps removed at your table in front of you for your peace of mind, and skip additional ice.

If drinking lassi(usually served cold), which we love, we ask that it be made with bottled water and use ice made from filtered (bottled) water. However, to be quite honest when it comes to lassi, you are taking a chance with the ice portion. But it tastes so good!! Oh, if you stick to better restaurants, they can accomodate your request about filtered water etc.

All in all, take precautions, but DONOT forget to relax and enjoy your trip.

Just as a joke, take a sip of the "holy ganges river water". Only if you are a devout pilgrim. Haha. Don't risk it. NO DRINKING any holy water anywhere. Sorry. Not even as a joke.