say its not true...

we agree in large part with what you have said. While our time was not spent in smaller towns and cities, save one watertown, we found your observations accurate.

we did visit some lower end shopping venues and found a bit more gritty feeling with lots of bargaining and a much lower level of articles, all very affordable. But as you have said there are huge numbers of upscale shops in every city... how many coach shops, or designer shops of the same name can one city have, even if there are 8 or 23 million people in that city??

China's aim seems to be to modernize using a western format while keeping key tenants of their traditional society, and socialism of course.

I don't think we would rush back, but i would love to visit Shanghai for a few more days---the visa is just too damn expensive.

June, i think that once one has visited India any comparison to anyplace is impossible and fruitless.

Thailand remains #1 for us, followed by bali and vietnam with india near the top as well, exhausting as it is to travel there.

Agree completely with your observations -- and my experience there last year was VERY similar.

That said, I would add that our time out West (particularly in Lijiang) was far more interesting, rewarding and beautiful than anywhere else we were in China.

But, after having spent time in SE Asia, it's hard to compare anywhere else in terms of hospitality, kindness and pace-of-life.

I'm sorry to hear that you were underwhelmed, dgunbug, though I completely understand what you are saying - I saw way too many places that were in the process of being, or had recently been, "Disney-fied." Such a shame! You remind me of how very glad I am that I visited a number of places that hadn't been tampered with yet. Good to hear that you enjoyed the parks - gotta love all the activity there! Looking forward to hearing more....

Despite a lifelong obsession with dumplings, I've haven't been that drawn to China, mainly because all the photos show much of what you've described, a less exotic Asia. Looking forward to the report though!

dumplings---i was totally underwhelmed by them and the special shanghai ones even more so, BUT I am glad that i got a chance to try a wide range of them.

Just want to clarify a few things. While our trip to china was somewhat of a disappointment, we did enjoy our time there and were left with the highest respect for the Chinese people and their accomplishments. Again, I acknowledge the fact that some of our disappointment may have stemmed from our familiarity with the Asian culture and our past travels. As bob stated, there were also lower end shopping and we, who really don't care much for shopping, had a blast bargaining and making several purchases. Heeding the advice of Karen & Linda, we visited Mary's on the second floor of the pearl market in shanghai and I purchased a set of pearls for 1/4 of the asking price. Note that we then decided to buy three more sets for my DILs, but she wouldn't give us a better price so we moved on to Wendy pearl no 3 where we got an even better rate and she threw in lovely bags to store the pearls in. We bought a light weight tripod for peanuts and the complete Rosetta Stone Spanish series for about $15. The price in the USA is approx $300-350 for the same purchase. We have yet to see if this Chinese version is compatible with our computers. It is a gift for one of our sons.

One of the highlights of our trip was our meet up with other fodorites at lost horizons in shanghai. It was a pleasure seeing Karen and bob once again (they sure do get around) and meeting their friend pat, Linda & Peter (hawaiiantravelers), and the cokesmiths (cokie, Som and their adorable son cokie). Incidentally, besides the wonderful company, the food was the best we had while in china.

My accomplishments were two-fold - I learned to finally squat like a native and I walked my buns off, literally losing five pounds despite eating well. There were lots of stairs and I occasionally opted for them even when escalators were available. In this light, I should mention that china has a wonderful system of subways and long distance trains. And, unlike in many older cities, they often provide escalators.

What is rarely provided though is toilet paper. For a society making such strides in modernizing their country, one would think they could at least provide toilet paper in their bathrooms. The majority of toilets are still the squat kind, but I didn't mind that as much as the fact that I always had to carry toilet paper.

On our prior trips when using long distance overnite trains, which we like, we have always had a private berth. We were a bit leery about sharing a compartment with strangers, but this was no problem and we enjoyed our time with the people we met while traveling and were able to get a good nites sleep on all occasions.

More later...

Yeah, i too love the squat toilets. But sadly the Chinese are installing the western type which certainly are less hygienic and contribute to various medical issues for users. Give away free TP? Seems unlikely as folks would steal every roll in a second. Massive poverty means that anything free is 'free for the taking'. Know what i mean? In Xinjiang however, many places have no toilets at all and the dry, barren hillsides are covered with piles of poop and blowing, brown and used toilet paper. China suffers from the need to escape from the past but has no vision of the future except the Western picture . Hence, they, the Chinese people and government, ape the West in so many ways. Were you in a small village when the town's loudspeaker broadcast forth the message of the day? So loud to wake the dead. Always propaganda telling the people the joys of the Community Party, what they call the Communist Party. Also, must totally agree the food in the remote towns and cities is fabulous, esp for the price.

I do think your reaction might be influenced by the fact that you had visited other Asian countries before visiting China. We, on the other hand, visited China after Thailand and Cambodia, but before Vietnam and India and very much liked what we found in China. Our visit was 5 years ago, and we liked seeing the old hutongs in Beijing in contrast to the new building going on. We thought the architecture and pagodas were different enough to hold our interest. And we thoroughly enjoyed seeing the terracotta warriors, the Shanghai museum and the Li River.

Aloha June,

It was a blast meeting you all at Lost In Heaven and wish we had all night to chat.

We agree with what you have written so far about your views of China. China is modernizing at such an incredible pace and the communist govt in its quest to control all has squashed all of its heritage that is not of use to it and only leaves behind what they can use for its own benefit......oh well. Rude, crude and always looking for their share of the squeeze, never caring for others and always take, take, take. Having to be first in line no matter who is in front always bothered me. I always look at the taxi drivers of a new city or country we visit and find they represent the true values and temperment of their fellow countrymen. We have been to China before a few years back and knew what to expect. Our only intention this time around was to visit Shanghai and its environs which we missed on our last trip and accomplishing that there will probably be no more China for us. Never say never. We have seen and enjoyed enough, no real need to return. So much to see, so little time. The only interest in a return would be to Tibet, Mongolia or other remote areas where the red tide is still resisted and the culture is still somewhat intact. Pollution has overcome the industrialized areas so much that I don't see an out for the common people unless they rise and put a stop to it all the madness. My only saving grace for this country is to look at its history and to know that history always repeats itself.....

You should also play that Rosetta Stone gift if is on a cd because cd's bought in China are one of their biggest scams usually having nothing on the cd at best. Hope it didn't happen to you.

jobin,
I am one who hates and abhors squat toilets.....just not my style. I think the OP wrote that they learned to use the squat toilet and not loved to use them as you inserted your thoughts into their writing. As you can tell by my writing I am not into political correctness. When we first visited Japan several years ago we loved their washlet toilets so much that we installed one in our home after we got back. i consider the washlet toilet to be very hygenic. Imho if one loves the squats so much I wholly recommend stop just talking the talk and "walk lightly" and start installing squats in your humble abode so you can be more hygenic than the rest.

Looking forward to the rest of your report.

Aloha!

OK, i've got it now... toilet paper is the new gradient upon which we will grade a country..

i am rarely affected by pollution, but i found Xian and to a lesser degree Shanghai so badly polluted as to make visiting them unpleasant.

<<<Such a shame! You remind me of how very glad I am that I visited a number of places that hadn't been tampered with yet.>>>

We went to Europe for the first time in 1972, and in my diary, I wrote "Better get back before Burger King takes over". Progress? Hmmmm.

Re squat toilets. June and I have discussed this before. In Vietnam, we both just "held it in" rather than use them. I think June was simply noting her own personal progress in this regard.

As for the Japanese washlet toilets, they are fabulous! I went into a high-end Japanese-owned hotel in Saigon and used one. I want one at home too!

June, great report as usual. I'm disappointed by your disappointment. You know I follow you around. I'm going to have to get to Thailand and India soon.

I'm enjoying your report. We went when it was still quite unusual to travel independently. Hotels kept asking who we belonged to.

I must weigh in on the toilet situation. Squat toilets are NOT my idea of an ideal toilet situation and some of you may remember that I locked the door of a bathroom in India that had rows of squat toilets without privacy stalls. I was merely stating that I was proud of my accomplishment to squat like a native. Nevertheless, I feared each time that I would put my foot into the hole or drop my phone or camera into it when I pulled down my pants. As for the Japanese toilets, you may be describing the very toilet that I found in the bathroom of the shanghai grand mercure lobby. That toilet alone is a good enough reason to return to the grand mercure hotel. The toilet had both rear and front cleaning jets, a dryer and a warm seat to sit upon. Probably more info than anyone wanted to hear!

Hawaiiantraveler - your comment about the taxi driver reminded me that I wanted to comment on the bizarre behavior of the cabbies. Never before have we experienced the difficulty in finding a taxi to hire as we did in china. There were many incidences where we physically got into an empty taxi, only to be shooed out by the cab driver who refused our business. There were other instances in which drivers with empty cabs refused to even stop. We saw this time and again, not only with us, but with other customers trying to get a ride, at first we thought perhaps the cabbies did not wish to pick up westerners, but realized they treated the Chinese people in the same manner.

I think your impression that the "old" sections look Disneyfied is because the Chinese have been busy tearing down the genuine old stuff and rebuilding it. You would perhaps have been happier further west and further off the very well-trodden tourist track (although that doesn't mean Dali and Lijiang). For a more genuine feel I would suggest Taiwan.

Thursdaysd - perhaps you are right, but we don't have regrets about going to china at this time. I would have regretted more, having not gone. And of course progress is great for china and many of the changes are positively affecting the lives of the people whose standard of living has greatly improved with the modernization of china.

This is an interesting thread. I admit to finding China fascinating largely because I never thought I would have the chance to visit. I found the rude taxi drivers fascinating. The smog fascinating. The food I couldn't eat fascinating. The only thing I did not find fascinating was the Pearl Market. Get me out of here.

I have never wanted to go to India. So I wonder how that will seem when we get there.

India is fascinating.

I had always believed that the 'luxury' toilet belonged to the likes of D.Trump and L.Helmsley and served mostly for 'face', except in this case for a**. All that until i read about the toilet in Wikipedia, some of which i paste here for the 'commoners' amongst us. To avoid any notion of promoting a brand, i have omitted the maker's name.

The xxxx Washlet range of toilets and accessories include integrated bidet toilet seats, as well as add-on bidet seats for upgrading a standard toilet. The xxxx Washlet S300 is one such seat. This seat features a heated seat, retractable cleaning wands, warm water massage, warm air drying, and a built in automatic deodorizer. A digital thermostat and an automatic opening and closing toilet seat are additional features.

My basic opinion is simply that toilet use, very much like the food we prefer, is highly influenced by our first experiences. Which is the best food? That which Mother served. Whether it is wholesome and nutritious or not, that is what we want.

jobin, the Toto Washlet has been much discussed on this forum. My husband became so enamored during our visit to Tokyo that I could barely get him out of the hotel room to sightsee...and he bought one as a souvenir! When I wrote the trip report, we discovered that many Fodorites couldn't live without their Totos.

(The report:
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia/boy-falls-off-elephantman-buys-japanese-toilet-bkkcambodiagolden-triangletokyo-wteens.cfm) -

taxis... many taxis do not stop because they have been called to a job elsewhere.. we had more trouble in bkk with cabs not wanting to go someplace than we did in china.

we too are glad we took this china trip now before every place looks like muncie, IN...

toilets: "take me to a western hotel, please"...

very useful to read your thoughts on China. I debate with myself about whether to go or not, so appreciate hearing your views on it.

Thank you all for reading along and for your responses. I almost hesitated to write this report as I wondered if perhaps we were missing something that everyone else gets. We wondered why we were so underwhelmed when we've heard everyone else exclaiming how wonderful their china trip was. And, I didn't want to sound like a spoiled brat who didnt appreciate such a trip that many can only hope to take. I hope that my report helps others in making their decision. I will provide more info on our trip shortly.

Personally I really appreciate hearing all perspectives on a destination. One of my complaints with Fodors is often when there is criticism others pile on that the poster missed something or didn't fully appreciate it or whatever. It's actually more helpful in many ways to hear realistic even if negative views of a destination to factor in with all the rave reviews that typically are posted on Fodors.
Anyway, looking forward to reading more about your trip.

I have to say I'm with colduphere on this one. We thoroughly enjoyed our independent visit to China. We were fascinated by everything and frankly happy that things are modern enough to facilitate access. No disneyland for me. I would definitely go back to see some things I missed.

We returned to China last year, ten years after our first trip there. Beijing was so much more modernized. Instead of bikes, it was cars. No one stared at us westerners as they had on our earlier trip. I'm so glad I had the earlier experience and went before our trip to SE Asia. Shanghai and Beijing were very different back then, Shanghai was much, much more modern than Beijing. The Hutongs had not been restored. Now they are both modern international cities.The one consistency, dumplings were just as good!
However, our itinerary also included the far,far west, Xingjiang provence, Muslim, which was a trip back in time, incredibly interesting and different from the rest of China. Highly recommended.

Hotels:

Beijing: Novotel Beijing Peace – 3 Jinyu Hutong Wangfujing; included breakfast – decent variety of Asian and Western choices – best breakfast in China – we compared to Penninsula hotel’s breakfast which was across the street and found little difference. This hotel advertises that they provide different levels of comfort in their beds and pillows, but when we complained that the mattress was too soft, the solution was to put a thin blanket under the sheet for extra padding. The “softer” pillow was the same that came on the bed and although it wasn’t bad, it wasn’t as fluffy as I’d hoped for. On the second night, after my husband complained that he had to sleep on the chair, we were provided with an air mattress which was placed on top of the bed to soften it. The hotel was in a perfect location and we were generally satisfied. The staff was helpful. There was free wireless internet in the rooms and throughout the hotel.

Datong: Datong Garden Hotel - $70.03/nite including breakfast – hotel was helpful in finding private driver for touring the next day (7 ½ hrs) - 310 yuan for private car, hotel staff was helpful in business center. Ate dinner at hotel buffet both nights – good food; hotel was lovely with comfortable beds and nice amenities. Free internet included.

Pingyaho – Kylin hotel - $110/nite, beautiful hotel, but poor service. Minimal English spoken, breakfast buffet included but not great, elevator broken upon arrival, but we were told it was fixed later on. When we used it we got stuck in elevator. Location was good. At the entrance of the old town.

Xi’an – Mercure on Remnin Square - $96/night – breakfast not included, free internet – hotel was conveniently located within 15-20 minute walk to Muslim food area, decent hotel. Xi’an is a bit spread out and warriors are not in central area, so it’s hard to say where best location is. We were satisfied with hotel, although cost for breakfast buffet did not seem worthwhile.

Nanjing - Jinglin Hotel – $130/night - Beautiful hotel, free upgrade to executive room, great breakfast, excellent staff with good English skills, , free wi-fi

Hangzhou – Ramada Plaza - $77/night –– hotel was conveniently located walking distance to West Lake. Staff spoke little English and were not very helpful, breakfast not included with room, purchased tickets for West Lake impression show through hotel’s business center – had to pick up tickets at box office.

Shanghai: Grand Mercure Zhongya - 6 nights 592.27 yuan/night (breakfast included) $94.83USD, free wi-fi in hotel lobby only, fee for internet in room. Hotel located away from bund, but convenient to metro and central rail road station – just outside the hotel’s door. Very comfortable rooms. Breakfast buffet was ok, not great, best bathroom’s in lobby of hotel with automatic toilet controls as described above. Excellent staff with good English skills.


We left Ft Lauderdale on October 8th, flying to Atlanta to catch our Korean Air flight to Seoul and then onward to Beijing. Due to lightening our flight was delayed from Ft. Lauderdale and we literally had to run to catch the connection in Atlanta. Note: I called Korean Airlines from the cell phone once we were taxiing on the runway in Atlanta, to inform them that we were on our way and to request that they hold the plane. We made it to the plane with several moments to spare. As we left early in the morning and our flight was for the most part during the day, we got little sleep and spent the time reading and watching three movies.
October 9: We arrived in Beijing at approximately 9 pm, dropped off our bags in the room and headed out for a short walk on Wangfujing St, which was only a few minutes walk from the hotel. By this time the famous pedestrian street was quiet and the stalls and stores were beginning to close up. We returned to our rooms for a good night sleep.
October 10: Suffering from a bit of jet lag, we awakened at 5:30 AM, had an early morning breakfast and got an early start on the day. Breakfast was decent with a wide variety of Asian and Western choices. We set out for the Temple of Heaven via Beijing’s wonderful metro system which was within walking distance from our hotel. The Temple of Heaven is a complex of religious buildings situated in the southeastern part of central Beijing. The complex was visited by the Emperors of the Ming and Qing dynasties for annual ceremonies of prayer to Heaven for good harvest. We arrived at the Temple of Heaven at 7 AM and spent approximately 4 ½ hrs there. Besides being a UNESCO World Heritage Site, the Temple of Heaven is situated in 2.73 Km of parkland and we had a delightful morning watching the Chinese, young and old, doing tai chi, dancing, singing, exercising, playing cards, maj jongg, knitting, and picnicking in the park. The weather was wonderful and the skies were clear. The air quality on this day was to be one of the clearest that we had while in China. I cannot begin to describe how remarkable it is to watch the Chinese people exercising and playing in the park. The vitality and strength of the Chinese are like nothing we have ever seen before. There were elderly woman and men doing pull ups, contortions, flips, etc. And they all seemed to be having a wonderful time in the park. We thoroughly enjoyed our time here and it was probably one of the highlights of our trip.
After leaving the Temple of Heaven complex, we walked to the Qian men shopping area which was on the way to the Tiananmen Square. This was a relatively high end shopping area with name brands one would see in the USA. We also walked along some back streets through a smaller market area, but as we were not interested in actually shopping at this time, we continued on. Upon arriving at Tiananmen square, we took some pictures, walked around a bit, but decided there was not enough time to proceed on to The Forbidden City, so instead we walked from the gate to the southern end of Wang fu Jinh Street, a high end shopping district with upscale stores. We stopped along the way to purchase a hair brush as I had forgotten mine at home. We continued on through the pedestrian street which led to our hotel and decided to rest and freshen up before going to dinner at the famous Dadong duck restaurant situated only 5 minutes away from our hotel on the 5th floor of Jinhua Place.
Dadong duck restaurant – the restaurant décor is beautiful and the ambiance is very nice. We did not have a reservation and were told that the wait would be about ½ hr. While waiting we perused the very confusing menu, despite having pictures. It was difficult to determine how much food we needed to order and what the price was for the duck. We ended up ordering duck for two, two waters and two sodas, a braised eggplant dish which was heavenly, and condiments for the duck. Dinner was $70.00 and while a bit pricey for what we got, I would recommend going here. The food was beautifully presented.

My wife and I are planning our first trip to China with Gate1Travel in May, 2013 and I appreciate your honest postings very much. We have traveled to Asia twice in the past two years, first to Bali and Singapore, and last year to Thailand, Cambodia, VietNam and Hong Kong. Yes, we especially loved our last three days of each trip (Singapore and Hong Kong) because they were our Western splurges before coming home, but each trip was very special because we had "natives" to visit in Bangkok and Bali whom we had previously met in the US. This is what makes our trips more meaningful because we have felt that we were given an insider's view of their country which you don't see on a package tour.
We love to visit supermarkets wherever we go. Certain aisles fascinate me including the jellies and jams, infant formulas (I'm a pediatrician) and weird as it may seem, condom displays.
I also love photographing children and I carry small framed pictures from my travels to give away as icebreakers and as thanks for letting me take their pictures.

I haven't shown my wife dgunbug's posting yet and I hope that she won't want to cancel the trip. She may feel that it will be a letdown, but we want to go to China at least once. It is rare that we have gone to places that we would absolutely want to return to. Even beautiful Bali with all its noise and endless motorbikes was nice, but with even with the best snorkeling I have ever done, it's not on my urgent "return to" list.

We are spending 4 days in Beijing, 1 in Chengdu, 3 in Lijiang (I was glad to hear about another person's praise for that area), 2 in Hangzhou,2 in Huangshan, 3 in Shanghai and 5 days at the end where we will spend some time in Suzhou or Ningbo. (I could use some suggestions about how to divide up that time at the end before leaving PVG.)

We appreciate the candor which is often missing from many people's travel reports.
Dgunbug, could you email me at dpkmd2@gmail.com? I would love to pick your brain before we go to China and possibly meet for Chinese food in Ft. Lauderdale. We live in Lake Worth and would drive down to meet you.

DPK

Dpkmd - we'd be delighted to get together. Please check your account for my email response.

Just to clarify things, we have no regrets for having traveled to china and in spite of our disappointments, we had a wonderful trip. The main point is that the china of the past is difficult to be found and perhaps because we are becoming more accustomed to travel in Asia, as well as the fact that china has become so westernized, it was a bit underwhelming to us.

Sorry for the delay in writing this report. I'm glad to see that many of you are reading along and appreciate your responses.

We visited China for the month of September 2007. We had not been to any other SE Asia places. We loved all that we saw and did in China. The agency we used specializes in China trips. There were 7 total in our group-the perfect size. We chose to do a tour-as in China, everything is possible, but nothing is really easy.

Fast forward to 2010. Our daughter has signed a 2 yr. contract to teach high school in Sekou/Shenzhen province-about 20 minutes from Hong Kong. One of her must not miss places to visit in China is Yangshou on the Li River. She absolutely loved it. DPK you may want to consider this for your upcoming trip. It is an area that was included on our trip and the scenery is magnificent.

dgunbug: Have enjoyed reading your posts. Much of what you experienced was similar to what we experienced in 2007. Crossing the street was a challenge back then. I remember the squat toilets! Fortunately our tour agency had informed us before we arrived in China of the necessity of taking our own tp with us on our day excursions! We were lucky in that we also explored some small villages populated with minorities and even had some meals at locals' homes. We visited the hutong area in Beijing and also spent time at a local kindergarten. We had tea at a local teahouse in Chongqing. We explored the rice terraces of Long Sheng. In one place we were the only Westerners and a group soon formed staring at us. It was fun trying to communicate!! I must admit on our own time we ventured into a local Mickey Ds. We were given a laminated menu with pictures. We pointed to what we wanted and the food was just like eating at a Mickey Ds back home! This was at the end of our trip and for almost a month we had been eating strictly Chinese food.

The old China is still there-shrinking to be sure-but go off the beaten path and you will find it.

Looking forward to reading about the rest of your trip.

October 11 Day 3:

Still not on Asian time, we were up early again– this time at 6 am, so I decided to take a quick shower. I was thrilled to have a new hair brush and anxious to wash and dry my hair. Word of advice – DON’T FORGET YOUR HAIRBRUSH. Somehow the hairbrush was not designed to curl my hair under and when I attempted to blow dry it close to my scalp, the brush ended up stuck to my head. It would not uncurl and my husband and I thought we were going to have to cut my hair on one side up to the scalp in order to free the hair from the brush. It took close to ½ hr for my husband to unwind my hair one strand at a time from the brush. Needless to say…I did not go out and purchase another brush to blow dry my hair while on this trip. This was not a pretty site.

By 8:30 we had breakfast and were out the door where we picked up a taxi for a short ride to the east entrance of the Forbidden City. The ride was so short that the taxi driver refused to charge us his fare and instead gave us his business card in an attempt to gain our future business for a day out to the Great Wall. While we considered using him, we preferred to use a driver that our hotel recommended. At the east entrance, taxis are forbidden to drive up to the actual Forbidden City gate, but there is a trolley car for those who prefer not to walk. As the weather was beautiful and it was only a short distance, we walked beside the outer wall and moat along a very pleasant street lined with wispy willow trees.

At the entranceway, I picked up an audio tour guide, which was very intelligible and informative. However, I do not recommend using the audio device as there was no way to pause it. As I was interested in taking pictures and taking my time, I ultimately gave up on this guide and relied more on our notes and book.

The Forbidden City was packed with Chinese tourists and there was quite a bit of pushing when it came time to view inside buildings that did not allow access. We noted that the Chinese people do not understand the concept of lining up orderly to take turns and we saw this time and again on our trip.

The Forbidden City is filled with many courtyards and is enormous. It was interesting to see it after having read about it and having seen the movie “The Last Emperor”, however, the pavilions are all made of a similar architecture and they seemed to look the same to me. My favorite part of the Forbidden City was the beautiful gardens towards the north end. We somehow missed the dragon screen, but did not feel like retracing our footsteps as we would be seeing other dragon screens during our trip. The rock gardens were very picturesque and we enjoyed our time there.

We left the FC through the North gate and visited Jingshan park which is immediately across the street, taking the underground passageway to avoid the heavy traffic. We climbed to the top of coal hill, which was made from a landfill when the moat around the Forbidden City was dug out. From the hilltop, one gets a great view of the FC and of Beijing, putting the city into great perspective. Unfortunately, the day was extremely hazy and the smog was more than evident.

We left the park and proceeded to the right, heading for the Beihai Park, an easy walk, or one bus stop away. On the way we noticed a sign for Dashizou Hutong and decided to wander off the main road to explore the homes and shops in the hutong area. The hutongs that we visited while in China all seem to be in the process of being rebuilt. Nevertheless, it gave us an opportunity to see how the Chinese people live, or in most instances, how they lived before their hutongs were torn down to build more modern buildings. We noticed many public toilets and realized that these were not built for tourists or those passing by, but rather for the people living in the hutongs without bathroom facilities.

We continued on to the Beihai Park, taking a bridge over a lake and then wandering around the lake, viewing the various pavilions, the tranquil scenery, boats, rock gardens and the wispy willow trees that we were to see throughout China. There is a Tibetan Temple on the top of a hill, but we chose to skip that and just strolled leisurely around the lake, enjoying the tranquility and nice weather.

By now it was 3:30 and while we had planned to visit the Mansion of prince Gong which was close by, we decided to head back to the room to relax before dinner as the mansion closed at 4 pm. By this time we were exhausted and decided to get a taxi cab back to the hotel, however all cabs were either full or the drivers for some reason decided they did not want to stop for us or anyone else. This was to be a common and perplexing experience that we encountered throughout our time in China. There were times that we physically got into a taxi, only to be refused service by the driver. We never understood what was going on. It took us over 30 minutes to hail a taxi that would finally take us to our hotel, despite being passed by many empty vehicles.

For dinner we went to a hot pot restaurant in Jin Bo Place. The service and food were good although the waitress hovered just a bit too much, trying to help us cook the food.

> My favorite part of the Forbidden City was the beautiful gardens towards the north end.

You are bringing fond memories to mind - thanks, dgunbug!

Kja - looking back at my notes and pictures, I also have fond memories. Glad you are reading along. Your own trip report was so helpful to us.

To expect all countries in Asia to be similar is a bit of a mistake. Asia is huge and very diversified. Even within China you will find a lot of diversity with 30+ nationalities.
I would not expect toilet paper in public toilets anytime soon. Think of the cost of doing so with so many people. In any case, people there are used to carry their paper. On the other hand in most toilets in public areas of hotels of shopping malls, you will find toilet paper. It is also where you are more likely to find "sit down" toilets which many of my Chinese friend do find less hygienic. They usually do not sit on the toilet, they "sit" over them.
You are right about the public bathroom in hutongs. Generally there are not toilets in the residences.
About fruits in hotels I guess that it depends where you were, I find that I get these most of the time but I will admit that it depends on the category of hotel.
Getting a taxi has been an increasing problem in Beijing. Trying to get one at the north exit of the Forbidden city is certainly not a good idea. Why taxis are becoming more difficult to get is a bit of a mystery even for us residents. Sometimes they are off their shift taking the car back, sometimes they want to take a break for a meal or toilet break. But I also suspect that when they see a white face they worry that they won't understand where we ant to go. On the other hand, getting a taxi is also a challenge for my Chinese friends so there must be other reasons.
About Dadong, it has the reputation as the best Beijing duck in the city but there are several other contenders. I find the service there pretty bad and prices high.

JPDeM - while there are certain commonalities among the Asian nations, I did not think china would be the same, nor did I wish it to be the same as other countries we visited. Also, much of what we saw as far as china's progress, did not surprise us. Thank you for pointing out that there are in fact western toilets in many of the modern malls and restaurants. We also took note of the fact that the Chinese often preferred their squat toilets, given the choice. As for the taxis, we didnt think they were avoiding us gringos as they passed by many Chinese people as well. I believe we were all equally perplexed.

This is a fabulous report-thank you for taking the time to write so many details. My husband and I skyped with friends last night who are living in shanghai for a year, thus prompting us to plan a trip to a place that was not on the top of our list. I'll be looking forward to reading the rest and then posting my own itinerary and questions for this board. I love the depth of information to be found here!

Atltravelr - thanks so much for your kind words. I wasn't sure if anyone was still reading so its encouraging to see that this is appreciated. I will try to write more soon.

Dgunbug, I'm following along too and enjoying your report. Also for every one responding, there's likely to be several more, if not many more, reading.

A comment, if not a grunt from some of you is always appreciated!

I'm one of the guilty lurkers here. Great report, always a more interesting read with a little conflict.

Re: Bathrooms. Some filmmaker friends took their kids out of school and are taking a year to travel around the world. They have been posting some incredible short videos about their journey and there's one about Chinese bathrooms called "The Most Disgusting Bathroom on the Planet" (not for the faint of heart):

http://www.ayeartothink.com/2012/11/most-disgusting-bathroom-on-the-planet/

If you want to clear your palate after watching, they have many other videos with much more beautiful images, including this one about the cool neighborhood where they stayed in Shanghai:

http://www.ayeartothink.com/2012/11/our-souvenir-from-the-french-concession/

Crosscheck - thanks for reading along. I loved the video of the most disgusting bathrooms and they did compare to some I visited and I especially loved the signage above the men's urinal!

October 13 – Day 5

Our day began early as we had slept the prior evening away. Still suffering a bit of jet lag, we awakened at 4:30 AM, went down for breakfast at 6 AM when the dining room opened and got ready for our driver who was to take us to our much anticipated visit out to the Mutianyu section of the Great Wall. We had made arrangements through the hotel’s concierge service to hire a driver with good English skills. We were quite pleased with the driver who was very pleasant. At 8:15 we met the driver in the lobby and set out approximately 1 ½ hrs to the wall. This section of the wall is a little further away from Beijing than the most popular section at Badaling, but we decided to go there as we were told it doesn't get as crowded. This section of the wall is fully restored, there are hand rails to help you up on the very steep parts and the views are spectacular. There are two chair lifts up to the wall, each run by separate companies. The first that one approaches also has an optional luge that one can take down. Our driver suggested buying a round trip ticket through the same company. One can decide if they want to take the chair lift back down or the luge, once one is finished. Originally I had planned on taking the luge down as I had read many good reviews on what fun it was, however, the signs said that it was not recommended for the elderly and since my husband recently turned 70 and did not want to use that option to return down, we decided against it. Also, the lines were quite lengthy waiting to get down using the luge, so I was not unhappy about our decision. In retrospect, I believe the better way to walk the walk would be to go up one chairlift and come down on the next. I am not certain if you can buy a one way ticket up one and down the other, but if so, it would be good to arrange for your driver to meet you on the other end so that you don’t have to back track. We were anxious to arrive early to avoid the large tourist crowds, but there were still many people when we got there around 10:00. We spent about 4 hours walking the wall and enjoying the climb, the scenery and good weather. The walk was not as difficult as I had anticipated, but perhaps the walking stick that I purchased before beginning the climb helped. The direction that we walked (left upon exiting the gondola – towards the next gondola) was not initially optimal for pictures as the sun was in our eyes, but the crowds seemed to disperse later in the walk on our way back and the photography was even better as the sun was higher up overhead. Sadly, upon our arrival back at the chair lift for our descent down, we encountered a rescue team which had just given up trying to resuscitate a traveler who had had a heart attack. What a scary situation to have to face as the surviving spouse. It makes one realize how important med evacuation and trip insurance is.

We returned to the room at approximately 4:00, relaxed and freshened up. For dinner, we walked to the Grand Hyatt Hotel which is situated at the end of Wangfujing Street and enjoyed their dinner buffet, which was a mixture of both continental and Chinese foods. Afterward, we strolled back to our hotel, enjoying the pedestrian shopping street which was filled with people. At the far end of the street, closer to our hotel is the Wangfujing Cathedral, also named St. Joseph's Wangfujing Cathedral. The church was beautifully lit up and has a large square in front of it where hundreds of people congregated and danced synchronized dance routines. It is quite amazing how the Chinese people are so active and we were fascinated watching them enjoying themselves. There were people of all ages and there were different groups dancing. One never knows what awaits them at each new corner as one explores new areas. This is one of the things we like best about traveling and just walking around.

October 14 – Day 6:

As it was Sunday, we decided to take a cab and visit the Panjiayuan Antique Market which we had heard was only open on weekends and purportedly best on Sundays. The market is located in south east Beijing, near the Panjiayuan Bridge, East 3rd Ring Road South, Chaoyang District. It covers an area of 48,500 square meters, of which 26,000 square meters are for business. There are over 4,000 shops in the market, with nearly 10,000 dealers. We had heard that this “beloved flea market sells almost every Chinese knick-knack imaginable. It’s a great spot for souvenirs, but bargain hard and treat any claims of antiquity with skepticism. “ We wandered the many isles of Buddhism statues, antique furniture, books and scrolls, paintings, ceramics, Ethnic minority trinkets, etc. Frankly, not being a shopper, I was rather bored with this market and most of the items looked like junk to me.

We happily left the market and picked up a taxi to the Summer Palace, one of the destinations higher on my list of sites to see. Situated in the Haidian District northwest of Beijing City, the Summer Palace is 15 kilometers (9.3 miles) from central Beijing. Being the largest and most well-preserved royal park in China it has been long recognized as 'The Museum of Royal Gardens' and was ranked amongst the World Heritage Sites by UNESCO in 1998. Once a summer retreat for emperors, this 290-acre park is still a retreat for the crowd-weary tourist who can relax here or stroll around ancient pavilions, mansions, temples, bridges and huge lake.

Coincidentally, just moments after arriving at the Summer Palace, we ran into my brother-in-law’s brother and his wife who we knew were touring China with a group, but who we never thought we’d bump into. We were delighted to run into them and were welcomed to join their tour group while they wandered the grounds. The tour spent about 1 ½ hrs at the Summer Palace and while we were grateful to accompany them for a short time, we were even more grateful to retrace our footsteps when the group departed, as they had missed some of the most interesting aspects of the grounds. There is a bit of a climb up to the top of a pavilion which they did not visit. The rock gardens and the views looking back at the lake and upon the city of Beijing were wonderful and we were delighted to be on our own to take in the scenery at our own pace. There were other areas of the park that they also missed and my husband reminded me that this is the reason he likes to travel independently. Our BIL’s family though was quite happy with their tour. Little did they know how much they had missed. We spent several additional hours at the Summer Palace and enjoyed our time here.

Upon exiting the grounds, we found a subway station nearby with a row of western chain fast food restaurants including McDonald’s and Starbucks. We took the opportunity to stop here to use the nice western style toilets and the free wi-fi. By then it was rush hour and we took a long metro ride to Ghost Street, an area lined with red lanterns and hundreds of restaurants. We thought that the area would be more appealing, but decided to leave and return to the hotel. After freshening up, we strolled down the street and ended up eating at an Irish Pub close to the hotel. My husband who is not a big fan of the Chinese food was grateful to eat something different, although the Irish pub was not a restaurant I would necessarily recommend.

Atltravelr - It is always a great opportunity to visit a country when you know people there who can show you around. I'm glad that this report is useful to you. Do you live in Atlanta, GA? Is that what the Atl stands for?

Yes, we live in Atlanta though both of us are originally from the west coast (LA and Vancouver). Our friends are from London and living and working in shanghai and so far they've had very little chance to travel around china. We know we'll stay with them in shanghai and they will join us for a long weekend in ether Beijing (if they haven't gotten there yet), or some other spot that we decide on. As I said, china was not really on our list of top spots, but now I'm getting excited about planning something. First thing was getting out a map and understanding the distances involved between areas we might consider-so different from our Europe planning, more like I imagine someone coming to the US might feel. I don't think we will have more than 2 weeks on the ground and I don't want to spend lots of time flying from one end to the other and back. I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about the many trains you took.

One question I have for you already-did you organize your driver ahead of time or just when you got to the hotel? The only people we know who have been to Beijing saw the wall via bus-I think with 4 of us we could spring for a driver.

> There were other areas of the park that they also missed and my husband reminded me that this is the reason he likes to travel independently

One of many reasons to travel independently! I am accustomed to stepping aside to let tour groups pass me, and each time I do, I think how glad I am to be able to see what I want at the pace I want!

june--love all the detail..

summer palace remains one of my best china memories

Atltravelr - whenever we needed a driver, we asked the hotel to find one the day beforehand. Be sure to request a driver who has some English skills. While this is not always possible, in which case the hotel will give the driver detailed instructions on where to take you, sometimes you will luck out with a driver who can communicate with you. In most instances we did not feel a guide was necessary, especially if you have done your homework.

Bob - glad to see you are following along. I'm still following your trip report.

Kja - your own excellent report was one that really gave us the confidence that china is doable on your own.

Bookmarking this as my son is shortly off for a year teaching English in Shenzhen and I know almost nothing about China.

just catching up and still here june enjoying your report. the two highlights of beijing to us were the summer palace and the great wall at mutianyu. it snowed a little while we were at the wall and we were the only ones there on top the hour and a half that we roamed the wall. it was surreal.

Aloha!

@tarquin - if your son goes to Shenzhen to work, he will not really see China.
In my experience, asking the hotel to find you a driver is a sure way to pay double, at least if you are in a fancy hotel. Different story in smaller places like Pingyao for example. In bigger cities like Beijing or Shanghai, it is better to research ahead of time and book yourself.
I enjoy Panjiayuan also but I don't think that there are 10,000 dealers there, not even close!!! The Summer Palace is not for everyone. It is pretty low on my list of things to see and when friends visit me I nearly never take them there. Maybe because I am from Canada, but I have yet to be impressed by a city lake in China. Nothing special for me and always too many people, not my definition of quiet nature.
You mention the two gondolas at the Great Wall. There is only one gondola. The other is a chairlift (not enclosed) If you get to the top using the gondola and walk to the chairlift you are going mostly downhill. In my opinion, this is the best route. And yes you can buy one way tickets.

JPDeM - thanks for the clarification regarding the lifts. We took the chair lift and walked toward the gondola but never quite got there.

We stayed at 4 star hotels and the cost of our drivers were the same as those I had read about previously on various forums.

We enjoyed the summer palace but could have passed on the antique market.

Hi, June. Just now joining along. I haven't been on the computer for a few days and am behind on my own report. I'm very much enjoying yours. I agree with many of the advantages to independent travel that you cite, and there were times I'd like to have been on our own, but the tour worked out well for us. And yes, regarding the Great Wall, we too took the gondola up (one way ticket) and rode the toboggans down (one way ticket purchased at the top).

Keep it coming!

Just to give a different perspective on taking a tour of China. We loved ours and felt that it more than lived up to our high expectations. On this tour, we took the Rick Steves approach. We used the tour for hotels and for efficiently getting from one city to the next, but did a good deal of the touring on our own. We paid for no optionals and used the free time to take the subway in Beijing, and tour on our own in Beijing and other cities. If the tour visited a museum or other venue and we wanted to stay longer we did, and made our own way back to the hotel by taxi. Meanwhile we had efficient transportation to all destinations, and very good guides at all of the places we visited. I would have chosen to visit these places even if I were planning independent travel to china. So I guess not all tours are created equally and not all independent travellers would necessarily dislike a tour. If you know what to expect and can live with someone else choosing the hotels and arranging for the transportation you might enjoy a tour of China as much as we did.

I think your itinerary's perfect! Enjoy your trip to China!

Althom1122 & shelleyk - thanks for reading along. And I agree that at times tours are certainly the way to go. One just has different experiences when traveling independently. All the people I know who have taken tours through china have enjoyed them and I remember well althom's tour through India which sounded wonderful. I merely wanted to point out that we were surprised at how much the tour had missed and how we enjoyed out slower pace. I am sure we missed out on things that the tours sometimes cover and the socialization with a group of travelers interested in seeing the world is always nice.

I have been following this thread from Day 1, and want to share my 2 cents now. I think some of you are focusing too much on the method of travel - tour vs non-tour, etc. But the real issue the OP is sharing is the place itself.

I live in Hong Kong and know China quite well. Is China an amazing place? Sure, especially if you haven't been. But will I take a vacation there? No, because it's hard to really ENJOY a place where there is so much to not enjoy, regardless of how to do it - tour or no-tour. Unless you go really high-end and get yourself totally pampered and ISOLATED from the real China. But even that, you still have to fight the crowds at the Forbidden Palace, just an example. Unless you say, "skip that too".

China these days has some of the worst of both worlds. There are old and nice and quiet areas, where you can find real hospitality. But there, infrastructure and logistic can be a problem. Then there are the very rich large cities where things are modern and fairly well-structured, but then everybody is trying to get ahead and take your money. And not to mention that most of the major sites that are truly worth seeing are overrun by Chinese tourists.

So, for those really wanting to see China today, you have to really think about what you want to see and prepare yourself for it. It's not easy to really really enjoy the real China - again, meaning not taking a luxury tour and get yourself isolated from it.

---

Take myself as an example. I've been to Beijing, Xian, Hangzhou, etc while as a kid. And I revisited Beijing last summer. Did I enjoy this past visit? No. Do I feel like I have to visit Beijing again in the next 5 years? No. I haven't been to Shanghai myself, but have no intention of going either.

I took a 3-week trip to Tibet last year. Was it amazing? Absolutely!!! Will I go back soon? Nope. How about other famous and scenic areas like Jiuzhaigou and Zhangjiajie? I haven't been and really would like to see the scenery, but do I plan to go to those places anytime soon? Nope, with all the Chinese tourists running all over those places.

So, I'd rather go other places like Japan, Australia, Canada, Europe for my vacation. Or even Taiwan. China? I will go if and when something comes up, and I probably would find that trip amazing. But will I actively plan a trip to visit some places there? No, thanks.

Again, a place can be TRULY AMAZING, but one doesn't necessary ENJOY the journey.

per rrkwan: "it's hard to really ENJOY a place where there is so much to not enjoy, regardless of how to do it - tour or no-tour. Unless you go really high-end and get yourself totally pampered and ISOLATED from the real China."

I'm sure things have changed since 2010, but I truly did enjoy my trip to China. I certainly did NOT go high-end - far from it! I DID go a bit off the usual path taken by Western tourists. There were some moments that weren't nice, and I think I spoke to some of them in my trip report. But those moments were decidedly overshadowed by the better moments, which not included seeing some spectacular things, but also included frequent encounters with kind and helpful people.

I think rkkwan's advice that one should "really think about what you want to see and prepare yourself for it" is good advice. Actually, I think that's good advice whether one wants to visit China or anywhere else in the world.

Thanks for the original post and the discussion including rkkwan's interesting perspective and so many other fascinating comments.

At the end of a round-the-world trip a few years ago I visited China and spent time in Kunming with a friend. My friend is a Chinese speaking fellow anthropologist and has done research in the area for many years. I met many of her charming Chinese friends and had a nice time. Kunming is a fairly attractive city known for its pleasant weather and greenery. However, despite what was a great introduction I can't say I would rush back to China, though I am still interested in the far northwest.

We flew up to Zhongdian (also know as Shangri-La) and saw a similar Disneyfication of the old town mentioned by the OP. The whole place is designed to cater to large groups of Chinese domestic tourists and there are very rigid ideas of what tourists should do. I was in the very best situation. traveling with someone who speaks Chinese. We went hiking and hired our own taxi driver but it was a struggle to break out of being told what we would like to do. There's a rigid idea of what tourists like and these are often the only options that are presented.

I'm sure I'll go back to China, my husband went several times in the early 90's and loved visiting with friends but I'm just more enthusiastic about India, Indonesia or South east Asia.

i have seen all of the things mentioned above, and I both agree and disagree with them.

chinese tourists have more than a right to see their own country, which was kept from them for so long. they have a right to make a living and enjoy themselves, but they do not need to outdo the germans in being rude and aggressive. it's in their genes based solely on their numbers.

Disney does not work for me as a description, but i am not sure what the right term is... fake modernism?? over commercialism??

Smog and pollution are two things they need to spend more time on NOW, and I am sure they are..

ray, go to shanghai and compare it to HK--you might find it interesting.

I appreciate June taking the time to talk about the annoyances of china. I'm starting a thread on the annoyances of FL.

how could i fail to chime in on tours or non-tours..

today i feel that the main places in china are very easy to visit on your own... and thus no real assistance is needed day to day.

we prefer to do things on our own and at a slow pace.. tours move toooo fast and slide over things. its more a herd mentality. it is also a mentality of sticking with joan from iowa as she and i have similar backgrounds and expectations. and at the risk of really sticking my neck out i think many tour people are just plain lazy... They are less interested in the place being visited than in the next junk trinket shop...

but this is a generalization of course. some peope would just be unable to travel without a tour.

Oh my...I really seem to have stirred up a can of worms!

Rkkwan - while our trip to China was somewhat underwhelming and a bit disappointing, we did enjoy it and had no regrets that we went. I am merely trying to point out that the China of yesterday is no longer in existence and so, for us, this trip was less interesting than some others that we have taken. It is unfortunate that much of the Chinese heritage and relics were destroyed during the cultural revolution and that the Chinese must now resort to rebuilding itself, sometimes at the expense of giving the "old towns" a Disneyfication feel. I give the Chinese credit for attempting to rebuild and preserve some of its past, as well as for the modernization of its cities so that the people can enjoy the same standards of living that the western world lives. And, as rhkkmk points out, the chinese tourists have a right to travel around and see their own country. The crowds did not bother us...in fact, that is one of the things that makes China unique and we were amazed at the large mass of people visiting tourist spots. We enjoyed seeing the Chinese people touring their own cities. As for the pushiness...that is of course a generalization, but it is something we encountered many times. There were many very kind Chinese people who went out of their way to help us, several times walking great distances to show us the way.

Welltraveledbrit - I think you've gotten my point. While I enjoyed China, like you... "I'm just more enthusiastic about India, Indonesia or Southeast Asia".

Kja - we did not go super high end and we traveled by overnight trains, having some wonderful experiences which I will relate later. I sure do give you credit for your travel style on the fly and loved your report. We tried to go to some places less traveled - Datong, Pingyao, Nanjing, Luoyaung, but missed the southwestern region and Guillin - areas that we decided to save for a future trip. I am less sure now whether we will get to those places as China underwhelmed us and as there are other places where we would like to go.

Bob - I look forward to your thread on the annoyances of FL!!!

it may take months for a comprehensive report june..

Yes China has been modernizing but I would not call it Disneyfication. Anything that is a few hundred years old and made of wood would not be around now unless it was renovated and painted.So, yes the Forbidden city and Temple of Heaven have been renovated but they do so in total respect of the original. The Great Wall has also been restored. You can however visit part of the Wall that had little or no restauration although in some caes it may not be more than a pile of stones.
There are many places to visit in China that have not been modernized. Just visit and live inside the city walls in Pingyao. If you walk around in the morning you may get a glimpse of the donkey carrying a very smelly container as a lot of places do not have sewage and someone has to empty to toilets in the morning.
Time and events take their tool on man-made structure. Go visit the equivalent of the forbidden city in Seoul. It is 100% remade and nowhere near as impressive as Beijing's. But don't blame the Koreans, the Japanese destroyed everything during their occupation.
Finally, a lot of tourists is not only true in China. Traveling is getting cheaper all the time so trying to visit key attractions in Italy has become unbearable unless you don't mind waiting 2-3 hours. And you want to visit the Alhambra in Sevilla in Spain? My friend could not get tickets to get in. I was more lucky as I booked two weeks ahead and got a lousy entry time. As people on a travel blog told me, 3this place gets 3 million visitors per years and you need to book your tickets 2-3 months ahead during the tourist season.
But no matter how many people there are (and I find there is more population density in HK) and no matter if the place was restored or not, it does not take away from the cultural experience of trying new food and seeing a different life. But if you do not like to try unusual food and prefer your clean toilet and soft bed from back home then no point going. Just buy a book with nice photos of the place. Simpler, no stress and also cheaper.

Before we went to China in 2010 we read about the Chinese culture with regard to lines. When in Rome...we pushed back; they backed off. The absolutely only thing we found unpleasant in China was riding the train. We had planned an overnight but weren't able to do it. I still count my lucky stars for that one! We thought the Chinese tourists were interesting. For quite a few of them, my husband and I were a real tourist attraction. I think my photo is being passed all over China right now with groups of beaming Chinese tourists! Since we get up early, we were at the Great Wall at Mit early and had the entire wall absolutely to ourselves. Also very few people at the Forbidden City in early morning. We were so amazed at the crowds we saw as we were leaving. They were lined up 12 deep to see into some of the buildings where we were first in line. We did not do a tour because we did not find any that covered all the places we wanted to see. Looking back, we are glad we didn't. We saw more for less money going on our own. Here is a link to my trip report.
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia/on-the-road-in-china.cfm and to my photos: http://garyandsusan.shutterfly.com/china

Speaking only for myself I don't get what travelling high end or low end has to do with it. It doesn't change what we are seeing and doing for the most part. And sometimes low end travel is more fun. Taking the bus in from Beijing airport, not being able to get a taxi and walking up Xidan street for a mile pulling our luggage while trying to find our B&B turned out to be more fun than using the taxi. Walking into a dump of a restaurant and having some locals grab our table from under our noses was pretty entertaining. Getting lost and having an absolute angel stay with us for 30 minutes trying to help us was an amazing experience.

This has been our experience in 23 countries. Expect some hassles. Go with the flow. Tough times are part of the fun. But not for everyone I am sure.

Coldupthere - I agree that the hassles and the unexpected are often the best experiences. The interactions with the people are some of the most memorable. Sorry this trip report is going so slowly, but I will continue soon. You will see that we enjoyed those interactions throughout our trip.

dgunbug,
just sent you an email but I wanted to also quickly comment on your post. Loved reading your experiences and observations....we were in Beijing about a week after you and it's interesting to read what we missed! Beijing was probably the least favorite part of China for us, but of course, how can you not see it? We had a guide for two days, and while I'm glad we did for easing the logistics, I do think that the quality of the experience is lessened because you don't take the time to savor and absorb what you're seeing.

I think travel is so much based on expectations....and the lower the better. I really didn't expect to enjoy China much....I viewed it more as an educational experience and a chance to observe the country that's about to take over the world! (perhaps, at least financially) But, we actually enjoyed it more than we thought and parts of the countryside were particularly beautiful. I actually was a bit surprised that the streets weren't more crowded, that the sky wasn't black with pollution, that I wasn't elbowed and pushed constantly by people, that the food wasn't full of mystery stuff, and that I actually could find a western toilet (often marked with the handicapped sign) more often than expected.

After I finish editing photos, unpacking and going through mail, I'll attempt to start my trip report. Again, thanks for sharing such great details, thoughts, and observations.

sdtravels - what was your problem with the train? I have traveled soft and hard sleeper long distance in China, and have no complaints. Soft sleeper can be quite posh these days.

Thursdaysd - we loved our train experiences and will write about them in my upcoming posts. Just too darn hard to write lengthy posts using the iPhone - afraid to lose info in cyberspace.

dgunbug...having visited China in the old days (1984) and again in 2007...I have to agree..I thought our 30-day trip in '84 was far more exciting than the '07. There little or no conveniences back in '84, no private autos, millions of bikes...street food all over, and very pleasant natives throughout. However, 2007 gve me the comparison that I was looking for and I can't say that Roz and I didn't like the most recent visit. The two were drastically different, galaxies apart. In '84 one had to get in with a tour..no other way. But we had loads of freedom and wandered off every day with another couple of friends who were traveling with us.

In '07, we hired local guides where needed and did all of the planning and traveling on our own, hotel, airplanes, etc. Very enjoyable...different times.

Dg: You've got a lot of travel in you left..I'm finished. So enjoy every trip and never neglect candor. It's refreshing...although I must agree with young Bob...I avoid Florida like a root canal. Robert, may I join you in compiling my annoyances with FL.?

Many more years of exciting travel, Dgunbug! Waiting for the rest of your report.
stu

i'd compare FL more to a filling without Novocaine, rather than a root canal.. all degrees of pain...

Thanks for your input stu and I'm pleased to see you following along. But I thought this report was about china, not Florida! Ok, so Florida is flat and not the best state to live in, but I can think if worse places to be. I've got clean skies, great weather (except for summers), beaches and golf courses. Life's not so bad here. Took me about 35 years to figure that out!

More on china soon.

October 15 – Day 7:

After breakfast this day we grabbed a taxi to take us to Prince Kung’s Mansion, purportedly one of the best-preserved royal mansions in Beijing. This enormous mansion, which used to house several families, has a total area of 60,000 square metres. In addition to the mansion, there are gardens, pavilions, artificial rock hills and ponds. While we were unimpressed with the actual architectural structure which looked like many of the other buildings we saw and were to see in China, we were impressed with the enormity of the building and the fact that the royal families lived so well. There are now many shops selling souvenirs in various rooms of the mansion, along with exhibits which we did not really understand.

Exiting the mansion, we decided to stroll around the lake to visit the former residence of Soong Chingling, also known as Madame Sun Yat-sen. Upon her deathbed, Song Chingling was made honorary chairman of the People’s Republic of China. The mansion is about 80 years old. It was provided for her by Zhou Enlai, a great friend and trusted colleague.

We spent the afternoon wandering through the hutong district again, stopping in an area near the lakes filled with restaurants and shops. Here there were many people eating mutton on a stick sprinkled with cumin and chili pepper, which we also tried and which was quite delicious.

From there we picked up a taxi to the Pearl Market where we decided to purchase eye glasses. After a bit of negotiating, we were quoted $50.00 for my husband’s frames, examination and single vision lense prescription. I picked a frame and was quoted $70.00 for an examination and my more complicated progressive vision lense prescription. We were told to return in an hour for our glasses. While waiting, we wandered the Pearl Market, purchasing a Rosetta Stone Spanish program for $15.00 ($350 in the USA), a light weight Tripod ($10.00), a watch for me ($15.00), and several other small gifts. We had a wonderful time bargaining hard and negotiating prices for our merchandise, generally able to buy all items at approximately a quarter of the originally quoted price.

Upon returning to the eye glass booth, my husband was delighted with his glasses, however, my own prescription was not satisfactory and I could not see out of them. I was assured that they could be remade and was told to return the next day at noon to pick up the new prescription.

Exiting the Pearl Market, we decided to take the nearby subway to the Oriental Place Mall. This mall has a huge food court and many restaurants where locals congregate. We picked one of the restaurants and ordered a vegetable and two chicken dishes that were delicious.

Following dinner we again walked up Wangfujing Street, where we passed by the famous food market, stopping to take pictures of various food items such as spiders, starfish, and silk worm larvae, all on sticks, along with other more commonly seen food items such as meats and fruit on sticks, noodle soups, etc. While the spiders, starfish and silk worm larvae gave us something to gawk over and were great photo opportunities, we really didn’t see anyone eating those items and we wondered if they were in fact eaten or more there to attract tourists!

October 16 – Tuesday – Day 8

Our last day in Beijing was rainy, but as we had seen the major sites that we had set out to see, we were content to take it leisurely, returning to the Pearl Market around 11 AM to buy some other small items as gifts for friends and family and to pick up my glasses. I was greatly disappointed that the glasses seemed no better on this day than on the first and was relieved when the merchant returned my money for the glasses when I refused to accept them.

Upon completing our shopping we took a taxi to the 598 Art District which is also known as the Dashanzi Art District. This area houses an artistic community which is situated amongst 50-year old decommissioned military factory buildings of unique architectural style. We had read that it is often compared with New York's Greenwich Village or SoHo. We wandered through numerous art studios and exhibits, but lost interest quickly. We stopped at a tea shop and enjoyed a wonderful pot of tea filled with flowers.

We returned to the hotel by taxi, cleaned up for dinner and returned to the Oriental Mall as it was a cold evening and the mall was conveniently located close by the hotel. For dinner we decided to try a Thai restaurant which ended up to be uninspiring.

The next morning we would be leaving by train to Datong. Details to follow later.

I had the same problem with progressive vision lens in Shanghai, they returned the half of $50 I put down both times in 2006 and 2008, different merchants. I heard people with single vision lens fare better but a few complained of headaches later.

When I was in Langmu, I had no problem seeing an old China where yaks were being herded in the street. Same for the graaslands, and wheat terraces in Southern Gansu Province. I guess it depends on where you go.

It's true that even in tiny places you have to go out of your way to eat at a restaurant with no English. We did so for 8 days straight, but that was on purpose and we sometimes had to go out of our way to find a place with no English written on the outside or promise of an English menu.

Wow, what a post! And am totally amuse by it....all the comments reflect what western tourists expected from China and thought of it afterward...the exoticness of it or lack there of. This reminds me of some Asian tourists commenting on how much less interesting they thought the States was comparing to Mexico (aren't they all in America?), or how disappointed they were in NYC because of the lack of modernization comparing to any of the big metropolitan areas in East Asia, or 'cuase the old NYC is no longer there just look at Little Italy almost being taken over by China town! And, don't all palaces and cathedrals in Europe look the same?

I completely understand what everyone said here about China. If exoticness is what you would like to see as painted by the imageries known as Indochina, China is definitely not. Nor is western tourists a big focus of China tourism for the past decades as in many of the SE Asian countries (and actually, serving western tourists are THE industry for many of the SE Asian towns.)...so no, you would never find a flower on your hotel bed, or hotel workers smiling at you with their 100 Watt smiles in China. You want to see donkeys walking on the streets in china? they are everywhere... just not where most tourists go to in China.

While I completely respect the sentiment of this post, I am writing because I hope those of you who came across this post to not be turn off by the idea of visiting china, due to the the title of this post, if you were thinking of going for the first time. Go to China if you are curious what a country which will definitely turn super-power in 20yrs is like today, if you want glimpse of why this is the only continuous ancient civilization that remain, and are interested in picking up pieces of its very fascinating history and various cultures that still reflects everywhere... go hire a local guide from time to time, because those folks will provide you amusing stories, legends, what and why and all kind of weird and strange knowledge of all sorts that you will never read on any guide books or forums.

I am sure most travelers on this forum will agree, not all cathedrals are the same. If you know more, understand it more, you will see more....now whether how anyone defines a trip being "enjoyable", that's up to the individual. China can be enjoyable, fascinating, and exotic...if you expect China, to be China.

Sin - thank you for your own perspective. When I began this trip report I debated about what to title it and decided to be frank. China was underwhelming for us and I would say it is the first trip where I actually looked forward to going home. Does that mean that I did not enjoy myself? Of course not. We met some wonderful people along the way, saw some amazing sights and never for a moment regretted visiting china. If you continue to read my report you will see that there were many aspects we found interesting and enjoyable. We went to china knowing that we would not find the china of the past as there has been amazing development over the past 10-20 years. In fact, this development is one of the things we found most amazing and we give the chinese people great credit for the accomplishments. Most people going to china will have an itinerary similar to ours, although they will rush through cities at a quicker pace and probably see fewer places. We had considered going to other areas of china as well, but wanting to go at a slower pace and figuring we would return for at least a second trip, we chose a more limited area. Perhaps we would have found china more exotic had we not been to Asia previously. I have noted all this before.

More trip report soon.

Dgunbug - your trip report is more valuable to me than the gushy ones. Great writing. Although I am upset you enjoyed the Pearl Market. I still have nightmares of faces popping out in front of me yelling "You buy, special price".

Coldupthere - thanks for your kind words. The most remarkable thing about the pearl market was that my husband actually enjoyed and got involved in the bargaining. We are not big shoppers and my husband is generally running away (usually with the money) when I decide to look for souveneers. So...we had fun.

October 17 – Day 9

Trains:

We had a leisurely morning, packed up our bags and headed out to the train station by taxi for our first train ride which would depart at 10:55 AM. Today we were going to Datong.
We had reserved train tickets through booking@travelchinaguide.com as our research showed us that several of our trains could very well be oversold, especially the first class soft sleepers which we hoped to get. Trains can only be reserved in China 10-12 days prior to the departure date and can only be purchased using a Chinese credit card, so we contacted this company about 3 weeks ahead of time to make arrangements. Payments were made through Paypal and although the company tacks on a hefty service fee, we thought it worthwhile to insure we get the tickets we wanted. Unfortunately, for this leg of the trip, we were told that our first choice train - the 8:05 train that would arrive at 14:04 was already booked. Also, our second choice train was cancelled. Therefore, we booked the 10:55 train which would arrive at 17:24, too late for touring that day and virtually killing the day. We had originally thought of taking the overnight train, but decided that there was insufficient time for a good night’s sleep. We had also considered the bus, but were dissuaded when we read about safety conditions.

We had read about the trains in China and were concerned that there would be much pushing and confusion when trying to find the right train and carriage. We arrived early to give us sufficient time to find the proper train, but we learned that the Chinese system was quite efficient and we never had a problem when finding the train. The train stations are enormous – more like a large airport and there are designated waiting rooms, depending upon which train you are taking. Usually these holding areas have passengers for more than one train and there are usually signs and announcements made when your particular train is approaching. Once called, the people would line up, show their ticket and proceed to the train tracks. There are some trains that only stop for a matter of minutes, while others remain at the station for a lengthier time. Whenever the train would be at the station for a limited time, the passengers were escorted to the train tracks and lined up in rows, depending upon where their carriage would stop. This is all quite efficient and allows for passengers to board the trains quickly. For the majority of the trains we traveled on, the signage was quite good and we had no problem finding our waiting room or in figuring out when to line up to depart. When we were confused, we were always able to show our tickets and ask for help which was readily given.

Prior to boarding the Datong train, I wondered why we had purchased soft berth sleeping compartments, which seemed unnecessary given that it was daytime. It seems that the majority, if not all the trains heading to Datong, were sleeper trains and I was surprised to learn that most of the people on the train spread out their bedding provided by the train service and subsequently slept most of the journey. As there were no seats per se, I climbed up to the upper berth and proceeded to sleep for the majority of the trip, as did my husband and the one travel mate that was assigned our soft sleep compartment.

Now…let me explain the difference between soft sleeper and hard sleeper. Basically neither sleeper is “soft” nor are there many soft beds in China. The mattresses throughout are rock hard and feel like you are almost sleeping on the floor. I suppose this is better for the back, but for our western standards, it sure feels hard. There are though, other differences between the soft and hard sleeper compartment. The soft berth is a 4 person compartment with two bunk beds with a door that closes, whereas the hard berth sleeper is a 6 person configuration with two bunk beds – 3 levels high. There are no doors in the hard berth sleepers, but merely a wall between each 6 bed grouping. Also, in the hallway are pull down seats for those less fortunate to be able to purchase a sleeping berth. Those people eventually find a bed either before the person assigned to the bed arrives, or after they have departed the train. More on our train experiences later…

Let me say though that we loved traveling by train. It is convenient, efficiently run and makes for some interesting experiences. Overnight trains save the price of a hotel and more importantly, it gets you to your destination without losing a whole lot of site seeing time. In the case of the train to Datong, it was unfortunate that we couldn’t take the earlier train, but we were comfortable and despite it being day time, we read, slept and the time flew by quickly. We also enjoyed our travel mates, whose English was limited, but who were both very pleasant.

We had not arranged for a tour guide for Datong, but knew that we would need a driver. It had been our intention to either: hire a guide and driver through the CIT group (government run travel service), or to join one of their day tours the next day. Upon arriving at the station, a CIT tout immediately found us and escorted us (more like dragged us) to his office which evidently, has moved from its train station location to a location many blocks away. We were quoted 200 yuan for two people to join the group tour, but we would have to make our way to the tour office rather than being picked up from our hotel. The tout was unable to tell us how many people would be joining our group. We decided not to book anything at that point and promised that we would get back with him by the evening if we wanted to join the group tour.

We had read that Datong is currently a mess, with construction all about as the old town is being rebuilt and this was still true. It was because of this construction that the CIT tour company refused to pick up passengers as we had been told they have done in the past. We left their office, found a taxi and went to our lovely Datong Garden Hotel, one with the most comfortable beds and nicest amenities on our trip. The staff at this hotel was wonderful and they helped us to arrange for a private car and driver for the price of 310 yuan the following morning. We thought it was well worth the additional money to go privately rather than with a group. We asked for a guide that would be able to speak some English and the hotel did their best to find us a very pleasant driver.

October 18, Day 10: Datong

There were two primary sites that we wanted to see, the Hanging Monastery and the Yungang Grottoes. Had we arrived early the prior day, we would have included either the Huayan Temple or the Shanhua Temple. After a decent breakfast, we met our driver who first took us to visit the Hanging Monastery and then the Grottos. We spent about 7 ½ hrs with our driver and had a fabulous day.

The Hanging Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Hengshan, 65 kilometers from downtown Datong City. The temple hangs on the west cliff of a hill with over 50 meters above the ground, hence Hanging Monastery. First built in 491, the present monastery was mainly rebuilt and maintained in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and Qing Dynasty (1644-1911).The biggest attraction of Hanging Temple is the fact that the temple includes Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism. The architectural complex was built on the base of the natural hollows and outcrops along the contour of the cliff. Over 40 halls and pavilions within an area of 152.5 square meters are connected each other by corridors, bridges, boardwalks. They are evenly distributed and well balanced in height. Inside the monastery are over 80 statues; some are cast with bronze, some with iron, some with clay and some are carved out of stone.

Leaving the Monastery, we set out for the Yungang Grottoes, located in the opposite direction from Datong city on the southern foot of Wuzhou Hill, some 16 kilometers west of Datong. These grottoes are known as one of the three major cave complexes in China, with the other two being the earlier Mogao Grottoes at Dunhuang in Gansu and the later Longmen Caves at Luoyang in Henan. 53 large sized caves are scattered over the southern foot of Wuzhou Hill, sprawling for over a kilometer from east to west. Inside the caves , existing more than 1500 years after their execution, are the masterpieces of Buddhist Sculptures. They are truly remarkable and both the Hanging Monastery and the Grottoes are well worth the trip to Datong.

Datong itself was an interesting city to see in its partially rebuilt phase. The city is being rebuilt with an exterior wall around the old city. There are sections of the wall that were complete and those were lit up beautifully, giving it a “Disney-like feel”. It seems certain that in addition to trying to remake itself to preserve its heritage, the rebuilding of Datong will make it a stronger tourist destination in the future. The outskirts of the city central is filled with new apartment complexes and the city was much larger than we had imagined it would be.

Our driver took us by the famous Nine Dragon screen before completing our day. While he offered to wait for us and return us to our hotel, we told him that we would walk around town and return to our hotel on our own.

The Nine Dragon Screen was built during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) and is said to be the largest screen of its type anywhere in China. It is 45.5 meters (150 feet) long, meters (26 feet) high and 2.02 (6.6 feet) meters thick, consisting of 426 pieces of glazed tiles. In ancient times, the screen served as a barrier both keeping passers-by peeping into the house and making visitors tidy up themselves before meeting the hosts. There was an entry fee of Y10 to visit the screen which we thought was fine, but not worth much more. Supposedly there is a free "5 dragon screen" outside the Shanhua temple nearby but we did not visit that temple. For Nine Dragon Screen, there are only 2 Nine Dragon Screens in China, one in Summer Palace Beijing, the other is the Datong one, which is said bigger than Beijing's.

Walking around the city at this time, one must walk around and through the road construction as the streets and sidewalks are all being redone. It is quite a project and we were told that its completion is projected in three years. We wandered along the storefronts and checked out the local restaurants, but as there were few people eating and as the menus were not in English, we decided to return to the comfort of our hotel. Both nights that we were in Datong, we ate at the hotel’s buffet. It was not inexpensive, but there was a great variety of Chinese food and we found plenty to eat. The food was good. After dinner the second evening, we remained in the comfortable lobby until 9:30 pm, setting out again for the train station where we were to depart Datong for Pingyao on the 23:17 train. This train was to be a soft sleeper and we would arrive the next day at 6:25.

Very interesting. Thanks!

I visited China in 1980, and it was plenty different at that time. We recently returned to Beijing on the start of a trip to Tibet and Bhutan. What a difference! We were flabbergasted! The explosive economic growth has completely Westernized the major cities. I can understand why you where underwhelmed.

When we traveled there (on a tour) in 1980, some of our fellow travelers had visited prior to WWII. I asked what had changed -- and they all said "No more beggars." There were no cars--only 1,000s of bikes--and everyone was dressed in blue Mao jackets. When we went out walking one night in Xian, we wanted to invite some university students to the hotel but they told us they were forbidden to visit. It is mind-boggling to think just how fast this country changed in 30 short years.

I'd say that the real fascination in visiting the major urban areas and Xian has to be the unbelievable history of the country (modern as well as ancient) and the incredible ancient culture, as reflected in the still existing art and still standing architecture. I'd love to visit Xian again -- very little had been excavated when we were there (yet enough to be totally amazed).

I understand that certain areas in the southeast of China still have not changed that much -- as well as some of the more ethnic provinces, especially those near Tibet (if you can get permission to visit). I hope you get a chance to visit again and experience more of what you were looking for--but I certainly understand your initial disappointment.

FromLA - thanks for your comments. We still would like to eventually get to Tibet and perhaps the southwestern region, but there are so many places on our bucket list, so who knows when that might be.

I'm not sure I agree with sin's assertion that the reason you won't find a flower on your hotel bed in China is because China isn't interested in catering to Western tourists.

If anything, it seems more cultural to me. Just didn't seem part of the culture to emote warmness. Just very upfront and matter-of-fact. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but tourists who long to get away from stark and clinical may find China not to be the right match.

No doubt China is becoming more of a financial force to be reckoned with (although let's see about that real estate bubble), but I fear that'll make what little is left culturally and artistically essentially cease to exist--not the opposite. If you'd like to be immersed in sterile, financial megalopolises with tons of Louis Vuitton and Prada stores to see then I'm sure you'll have plenty of options. I, for one, don't go on vacations to be in places like that--I try to get away from all that.

I found most of what I wanted to see in the big cities (old hutongs, etc.) had all but been ripped down or relocated...like a scourge or ghost from the past that no one wants people to know about. I fear the government will never realize the worth of the origin of its culture--and the people willing to pay to visit for those reasons.

Filmwill - thanks for following along and for your comments.

Being a Chinese, I think what you want to see are not in the destination list of your schedule. If you want to see some traditional Chinese building or culture, you definitely should not go to some big cities like beijing,shanghai and nanjing. They nearly have nothing deserve to see... And about the hotel, since China is not a tourist country like Thailand , our hotels are not so good at greeting foreigners. And about the bad manners like cutting in the line or crossing road without looking traffic light, they always happen in any poor and large-population countries

I don't know about the government never realizing the worth of the origin of its culture vis-a-vis those of us willing to pay to visit for those reasons. After all, they re-assembled Lhasa to the best of their ability after the Red Guard totally decimated it and even as they continue to relocate and displace the native population. I think when visiting China you have to keep in mind that it has a long, long history -- much of it filled with violence and destruction of the "old" cultures in power -- but somehow it endures and rises. If I had enough time and money I would visit China many more times....but I haven't seen Australia and Africa yet, so I don't know how much more I'll get to see of China.

Lhasa wasn't decimated by the Red Guards. It was the PLA. And Lhasa is now mainly a Han Chinese city, other than the inner old town area. Potala Palace is now a museum, with Han Chinese guards at each room open to visitors. Its entrance has a big plaque written in Chinese by Jiang Zemin.

Back to my report: Train from Datong to Pingyao

We found our berth easily and enjoyed our interaction with our cabin mates. One had been an English major at a Chinese University and spoke English quite well. She was extremely outspoken about Mao and did not have nice things to say about him and his regime.

Approximately 1/2 hour after departing, lights were shut and everyone settled down to go to sleep. While the cabin was comfortable, I had great difficulty sleeping that night as I had developed a cold. Additionally, I was a bit apprehensive about having to climb down from the second level bunk during the night in order both to get tissues for my runny nose and to use the toilet facilities. After needlessly worrying, I eventually clambered down from the second level bunk without falling on my face or having any accidents.

October 19 – Day 11:

We arrived in Pingyao at 6:30 and found a cab to take us to the Kylin Hotel which was located near the entrance of the old town. This beautiful hotel was well located, however, the service was poor, the breakfast buffet was crummy, and the staff, who hardly spoke or understood English, were less than helpful.

Upon our arrival we were told that the elevator was broken, so we were escorted upstairs to our room. Later after wandering around town for hours, we returned to the room to relax and were told that the elevator had been repaired. To our chagrin, once the doors closed the elevator remained stationary. We used the phone in the elevator to call for help and rang the alarm to alert the hotel staff that we were stuck. It took about 20 minutes for them to open the doors for us and we learned not to trust the elevator in the future. (No freebies for us, despite this mishap)

Pingyao is an old preserved town, which reminded us greatly of Hoi An in Vietnam, although we did not think it was as charming. There is a wall surrounding the old town which one can walk upon. We wandered the old town as well as the upper wall, but after seeing the town from above and walking a short distance, there is not much more to be seen. For the price of one ticket, one can have access to various merchants' homes, banks, and temples which have been preserved to show the ancient town’s history. The streets are lined with stores selling various trinkets and souvenirs, but to us, they all seemed to be similar and the stores did not hold our interest. IMO, one day is sufficient to see all of Pingyao.

After dinner (can’t remember where – there are many restaurants in town), we went to the Harmony Guest House which advertised group tours to the Wang Family Compound and to Zhang Bi Underground Castle in a nearby mountain village. The proprietor of the guest house speaks great English and the guests there were mostly English speaking. Although this guest house is a bit old, the rooms appeared to be clean and adequate and the people all staying there were very satisfied. The price is far below that which we paid and I would recommend it for anyone that is not seeking a high end hotel. There is free wi-fi in the lobby and the owner is quite helpful.

October 20 – Day 12: We arrived at the Harmony guesthouse in time for breakfast as the breakfast which was not included in our hotel price, was unappealing. For breakfast my husband had the banana chocolate pancakes and I had the Israeli eggs, both excellent choices. There were 11 people signed up for the tour and we were split up between a van and a car. We were asked to go in the car with the two young Chinese woman (21 & 25 year old), who were the only non English speaking tourists on the tour that day. While only one spoke limited English, the two girls were very pleasant.

The Wang Family Compound is located about 22 miles away from Pingyao Ancient City. It is one of largest luxurious residential complexes in China, representing Chinese distinctive architectural style of the Ming and Qing Dynasty. It vividly reflects the luxurious life of the Wang Family of that time. Due to its spacious architectures and artistic decorations, Wang’s compound is regarded as the Forbidden City of Shanxi, and we thought it was worthwhile visiting. The Wang Family began as land farmers, later amassing their wealth as merchants and eventually becoming local officials. The Wang’s compound was first built in the mid of 1600s, during the Qing dynasty, so most of architectures adopts the style of Qing dynasty. It was unfortunate that the complex was lacking in signage, in Chinese or English on many exhibits and there was no English tours given while we were there. Nonetheless, the complex is enormous and quite impressive. From the top, one can view the Yaodong cave dwelling village behind the fortress where peasant farmers have made homes out of man-made caves for generations and where we could get a glimpse at a rural Chinese village.

After our visit at this compound, we drove to the Zhang Bi Underground Castle, known for its long underground tunnel system. These tunnels were made in a time when the Chinese people fought against the Japanese invaders. The hidden underground tunnels connect from one village to another and from one house to another, allowing the Chinese to fight off the Japanese. The complex has served multipurpose over the years, serving as a military center, residential area, production site as well as religious center of activities.

One must hire a guide to enter the complex and tunnels and we found our guide to be quite informative. The tunnel system is divided into 3 layers. The top layer is only 1 meter deep from the ground, the middle is 8 to 10 meters deep, and the bottom is 17 to 20 meters deep. Besides the tunnel system, there are various temples on the premises. Some of the temples are Buddhist, some Taoist, and others are dedicated to many gods in Chinese folk mythology. Along with visiting the tunnels, we had an opportunity to visit the old town, getting another glimpse at a rural village.

In addition to visiting the Underground Castle & complex, we had a quick lunch (prior to entering the complex) at a café just outside the grounds. I ordered the chicken kung po and braised eggplant, both very tasty. Our tour ended at 3:30 and we had a 45 minute ride back to Pingyao. Upon arriving back at the Harmony Guesthouse, a group of people from the tour congregated in the lobby/dining area, where we chatted over drinks for several hours. The group was an interesting mix of people of various ages, several of whom were taking extensive time traveling through Asia.

We returned to our hotel and relaxed in the lobby while awaiting our 8:30 taxi which we had arranged through the hotel, to take us to the train station for our overnight train to Xi’an. We were sure surprised and not at all pleased when we were picked up by an open air golf cart (used to transport large groups of passengers throughout Pingyao old town), as the weather was quite cold and the distance to the train station, quite far away.

Upon arriving at the train station, we easily found our waiting-room, however, determining when our train was departing was more complicated. There were no signs and no English spoken so we depended upon the clerk who sat at the front desk, to tell us when we needed to line up for our train departure. We were anxious about this particular train as we had been told that it only stops at the train station for 3 minutes. As it turned out, there was no need to be concerned. The train staff was very efficient and escorted us outside just before the train was to arrive, lining us up according to where our train carriage was supposed to stop.

More later on our train ride and Xi’An.

Anyone interested in reading this? It's hard to write without an audience.

I'm reading! I think everyone is recovering from Thanksgiving. China is not really on my list for a vacation, but I'm finding this report fascinating.

Reading.

I've been waiting for your next installment about Xi'an!

Thanks - next installment will be coming soon. It's helpful to know someone is reading this.

I'm reading (aka "From LA")

Oh yes, I am following, just didn't want to be in the discussion of the title.

Following along too.

Shanghainese - glad you are reading along. I hope I haven't offended anyone by the title of this thread. As I've said before, while we were underwhelmed, much of that may stem from the fact that our prior experiences in Asia were so overwhelming and that we are now more used to things typically Asian that we've seen and experienced elsewhere. I hope you can see by the rest of this report that we really enjoyed ourselves on this trip. Please feel free to chime in. Your own perspective would be interesting to hear.

Just catching up with your report which I am enjoying very much. Although we've been to China, we did not visit either Pingyao or Datong and I was interested to read about what we missed.

Train from Pingyao to Xi'An:

Besides having to find the correct train in a short time, we were also worried about the condition of the cabin. We did not know what to expect prior to arriving on the hard sleeper train, were concerned that it would be very smoky, the beds too hard and the noise level too loud to get sufficient sleep. Upon our arrival, we discovered three men already sitting on the first level berth that my husband was supposed to sleep on. Even worse than that, we realized that my berth was the top one (3 rows up) and I did not think I would physically be able to climb up and down to get into the bed. Additionally, there were seats in the hallway that pulled down for passengers not lucky enough to have been able to purchase sleeper compartments since they were all booked. We were afraid that the men sitting along the hallway would talk all night. Fortunately, we worried needlessly. We showed our tickets to the men sitting on my husband’s berth and they got off his bed. On the bottom berth, opposite my husband’s, was a nice elderly man. His traveling companion was his daughter who I convinced to trade berths with me, so I only had to go up to the second level. After my prior overnight, I was confident that I could handle that. Thankfully, the train was not smoky, the beds no harder than the soft berth sleepers, and the lights were turned off approximately one hour into the ride. People were quiet and very considerate. Those sitting in the hallway somehow managed to get sleeping compartments as other passengers departed the train.

One half hour prior to arrival in Xi’an, the lights were turned on and passengers were awakened. It was quite a scene watching the Chinese prepare to exit the train. Several changed their clothing without worrying that others could see, while others washed their heads, face and even their clothing in the wash basins outside the toilet area. Exiting the train was an amazing sight, for I had never before seen such a massive wave of people exiting the train station at once. We attempted to find a taxi to pick us up and were confused when they all refused to pick us up despite being empty. Others also attempted to hire a taxi, but we all discovered that one must cross the street in front of the station and then cross again to the left side where taxis are allowed to pick up passengers. There was no signage and this was all very confusing.

Upon finally hiring a taxi, we drove to the Mercure hotel where our room was not yet ready. While waiting, we had a leisurely breakfast, then headed up to the room to shower and freshen up before proceeding out for the day.

By 10:00 we headed out again, walking from our hotel to the old quarters. Our hotel was a 15-20 minute walk to Bell Tower which was situated on a street filled with malls and high end shopping. Just past the Bell Tower is the Drum Tower and still further, the Muslim quarter. The weather was damp and rainy, but we had on our gortex jackets and were determined to see the sites. In retrospect, we should have headed to the Terracotta Warriors this day as they are situated indoors, to protect them from the weather.

I never expected Xi’an to be such a large city. We knew that it was a walled city and that the warriors were outside the city center. We had intended to bike the city wall, however, the weather was not conducive to doing so and we walked it for just a short time. Despite the weather being poor (a light drizzle throughout the day), the walk to the Drum & Bell Tower as well as around the Muslim Quarter was very pleasant. After visiting the Bell and Drum Towers we continued on to the Muslim Quarters, wandering around this area for quite a while, looking at the interesting food, tasting various meats cooked on skewers (mutton and pork), eggs on a stick and various other snacks. We checked out various merchandise being sold and noticed the same pashminas that I had purchased in Turkey (Made in China of course).

Later, heading back to our hotel, we noticed, as in Hanoi, that there were certain streets devoted to the sale of one type of merchandise…phone street, barber street, etc.
We were surprised that in Xi’an, very little English was spoken or understood. We also observed that when making eye contact and smiling at the Chinese people, we would rarely get a smile back in return and we wondered if this was a cultural thing or if the Chinese people were less inclined to smile back at Westerners. This is not to say that the Chinese people were unfriendly or unhelpful…but it was something we wondered about.

While I had previously heard that the Chinese people do not have the same understanding of personal space as Westerners, I did not have a problem with that. However, we did notice that the drivers seem to drive as if they have the road to themselves, only yielding to other vehicles and people at the last moment, if necessary. In China the vehicle seems to have the right of way, rather than people and we felt less safe crossing streets here than in other Asian countries that we have visited.

Again in Xi’an we found all the Western chain restaurants; Starbucks, McDonalds, KFCs, and Pizza Huts, as well as all major shopping brands in the malls. We were happy to avail ourselves of the free wi-fi in Starbucks and to get out of the rain for intervals during the day. We returned to our hotel by 5 pm. I don’t recall where we did dinner this night. Overall, we had enjoyed our time strolling around the tree lined streets of Xi'an and the interesting muslim quarters.

Warriors - next day.

Wow, Xi'an has changed so much! When I was there in 1997 the Bell and Drum towers were on an empty square. When I came back in 2002 rhere was a mall underneath the square and a new MacDonalds being built. It was much the same in 2004. I doubt I would recognize it now.

i agree with your overview.. the city is huge.. you did not mention air pollution---i found it about the worst i have ever encountered.

the lovely tree lined streets inside the city wall (a very small portion of the over-all city) were wide and inviting. Modernization has taken over Xian and large parts of it could be located almost anyplace in the world.

in my report i did not mention the personal space issue. it is alive and well. Chinese we encountered all need to be at the head of every line, no matter what. they bump into you with no comment, cut in front of everyone if they can get away with it... drive their new modern lux cars as if they are the only people in the city... we saw U turns being made in the middle of busy intersections, lane changes with precious little room, etc. it was off putting, but you ignore it after a while.

Too bad about the biking around the city wall. That was the highlight of our trip to Xian. But the air pollution was intense.

I was approached by a hooker in the Bell Tower. That impressed our two sons, who didn't really care that she wanted money. They thought she liked me.

Colduphere - very funny...I'm sure she liked you, but she liked your money more!

The pollution was very bad, but not to the extent that it was in Nanjing when we were there later in the trip. In Beijing, we were told that there are days that you cannot see the buildings across the street due to the pollution. This is a great problem for the Chinese people and I worry about their future health problems.

October 22 – Day 14:

We arranged for a driver through the hotel and while her English skills were not great, she was instructed by the hotel to take us first to the Terracotta Museum and then to the Banpo Village site. Upon arriving at the parking area near the museum, a guide came up to us and seemed to know the taxi driver. This was a licensed guide with the government credentials so we hired him for 150 yuan. He agreed to bring us back to the driver when we were done with the tour. The driver parked on a street a few blocks from the museum and without the guide, we may not have been able to find our way back to her. While the guide’s English was excellent, we discovered that we did not really need his services as there were written explanations in English that were as informative as he was. In retrospect, I was sorry to have hired him as we did not pay good attention to where the driver would be parked and we needed him to return to the taxi. I wanted to stop for lunch at the cafeteria close to the museum, which had been recommended by others, but was frustrated that we were unable to stop there as the guide was finished with his tour and anxious to return us to our driver.

As had been suggested by others, we first visited the Exhibition hall to see the movie on the warriors and then proceeded to pits 3, 2 & 1, in that order. While the guide did not suggest this to us, he was agreeable after I told him we would like to save the best for last and he noted that others like saving pit #1 for last as it has the most warriors and is the most impressive. As most are familiar with the history of the Terracotta Warriors, I will not go into details regarding this archeological find. The discovery is amazing as is the history and the site was exactly as I imagined it would be.

When we found our driver, she and the guide suggested that we eat in one of the local restaurants situated nearby, but as there were few people eating in them, we declined and proceeded to the Banpo Museum which was a short drive away. This museum which is situated at the base of the excavations of the Banpo site, exemplifies the typical Neolithic matriarchal community of the Yangshao Culture dating back about 6,000 years. We spent a short time in the museum, which we thought was ok, but not worth going out of the way for.

We returned to our hotel and decided to stay close to the hotel as we were tired. Our hotel was located in a complex along with the Sofitel and Grand Mercure, all owned by the Accor Group. For dinner we decided to try the Sofitel’s buffet, which had an extensive selection of both western and asian fare and which we enjoyed.

dgunbug,
I'm enjoying reading about your exploits...and you're a lot more adventurous than I am to take overnight trains. My big question is....did you find the warriors a highlight of your trip? I think you know that we skipped Xian....so I'm hoping you're going to say no!

Barefoot - I wish I could say it was a highlight, but in truth, despite the warriors and their discovery being amazing, it was nothing more than I had imagined and I don't think you made a mistake by not going there. Where is your report anyway? I'm glad to see you reading this.

Gotta get my grandmotherly duties of Holiday shopping & shipping for 8 done before I start...I hope to get to it soon.

The contributions from Chinese posters here are fascinating but I have a problem. My son has just gone to Shenzhen for a year - where can he go to see more than the megapolis without travelling for days?

1. Fly to Taiwan, lol.
2. Fly to Kunming and get on a bus heading south.
3. Possibly, fly to Datong and get on a bus going north. Haven't tried that.

October 23 – Day 15:

Our last day in Xi’an was rainy as well, which was a shame as we took a taxi to the Big Wild Goose Pagoda (Dayan Pagoda), a well-preserved ancient building and holy place for Buddhists. We climbed to the top of the Pagoda which afforded a good look down upon the city. This rather large complex would have been lovely to walk around in if the weather had been better. There is a lovely fountain and park area which we wandered about despite the rain and I am certain that there would have been many people and activities going on if the weather was not so dismal.

We returned once again to the Drum Tower by taxi and wandered toward the Muslim quarter where we sampled a delicious noodle soup with lamb meat. Pickled garlic was served on the side. We also sampled fried dough with lamb meat and veggies, again excellent, but very greasy. We tried the tempting rice on a stick with chocolate sauce and sugar, but tossed it as we did not care for the taste. We continued to wander and headed down back streets which were a bit away from the tourist area, finally returning to the Bell and Drum tower to view them lit up and to take more pictures. After a long day out, we returned to our hotel, made arrangements for a taxi the next morning and an early wake up call.

October 24 – Day 16:

The train station to Louyang, our next destination was approximately 40 minutes away in the Central Station, different from the train station that we had arrived in. As we were scheduled to depart at 7:05, we awakened at 4:45 and headed out by taxi at 5:30 AM. The Central train station is very new and we easily found our G-train. The seats were extremely comfortable and reclined nicely. The bathrooms were western style and very clean. The train traveled up to 297 kilometers/hr. and arrived in Luoyang at 9:05.
Upon our arrival we easily found the left luggage area to store our luggage while we toured the grottoes for which Louyang is famous. We found a taxi driver and agreed on a price for him to take us to the grottoes, wait for us, then take us back to pick up our luggage, after which he would take us to the central train station (again different from the one we arrived at) where we would depart on the 7:50 pm train to Nanjing. We discovered that we could have left our luggage at the entrance to the grottoes as they also had a storage area there. We also could have easily found a taxi to take us to the train station and did not need to pay a driver to wait for us.

Unlike the grottoes in Datong, one is prevented from getting up close to the Buddha carvings as there are railings to prevent one from touching the ancient treasures or from climbing around in the caves. This is probably best to preserve these relics, but we enjoyed the grottoes more in Datong. The grottoes in Louyang are located along a river and great efforts have been made to make the grounds nice to stroll through. The grottoes are located on both sides of the river.

We finished exploring the grottoes by 1:30, found our driver and headed to the train station. It had been our intent to store our luggage, get something to eat and explore the town of Louyang while awaiting our train, but by this time I had a terrible headache, having only eaten an ice-cream as there was little food to buy at the grottoes. We decided to find something in the KFC which was adjacent to the train station and I am embarrassed to say that we ended up staying there for hours, deciding against storing our luggage and exploring the city as we were just too exhausted. It was a long day spent reading in the KFC restaurant where we sat until approximately 6:50 pm, at which time we headed to the train station to find the waiting area for our overnight train to Nanjing. In retrospect, we would not recommend going to both the grottoes of Datong and Louyang. Given the choice, we would suggest spending time in Datong as the grottoes there were more interesting and as it could be paired with the Hanging Monastary which was also quite interesting.

That night we shared our overnight soft sleeper train with a very nice Chinese gentlemen who was a German professor accompanying two Chinese students to a German language debate at Nanjing University. The professor spoke limited English, but was also able to converse with my husband, who speaks limited German. The two students, who were staying in another compartment, came to visit and ended up staying to chat with us for several hours. While they were German majors, they both spoke excellent English and we had a most interesting conversation with them. By 10:00 the lights were shut and we called it a night. We slept quite well on this train and enjoy both the ride and the company.

KFC or not, sometimes you just have to listen to your body and rest. The mind is willing....but the body says "No way....I'm parking it for awhile." We certainly expect more physically from ourselves traveling than we do at home. It sounds like you've had quite the tour of different train stations!

Anyone interested in more? Hate writing these reports and not sure there's alot of interest.

Hey Dgunbug, I'm following and am sure there are others too. However, the reports should be fun for you, not dreadful. You know yourself better than anyone else, so if you hate it, then...

I'm here, enjoying your report. Please keep writing. These reports are so valuable when dug up later by people who are planning trips.

Tripplanner & Marija - thanks for the encouragement.


October 25 (Saturday)– Day 17:

Upon our arrival in Nanjing, we headed to the ticket counter where we purchased train tickets for our departure to Hangzhou two days later. We easily found a taxi to take us to the Jinglin Hotel where we were checked in quickly. We were pleasantly surprised to be upgraded to an executive room and enjoyed our stay here as the hotel was beautifully furnished and the rooms comfortable. The staff members had excellent English skills and were very helpful.

After freshening up and enjoying a tasty breakfast in the hotel, we set out by taxi to the very moving and quite remarkable Nanjing Massacre Memorial Museum which reminded us of past Holocaust museums we have visited. I would definitely recommend a visit to this museum.

From there we took a taxi to the Zhonghua gate to view the city wall. We stayed only a short time as we considered the wall to be unremarkable. Our drive there though, had been quite remarkable. The traffic was congested, the drivers aggressive, and our taxi driver came within inches of hitting a motorcyclist. As in the other cities we had visited, Chinese drivers drive haphazardly, changing lanes as they please, changing directions, driving in bike lanes and on sidewalks. It is a wonder how effectively they manage to get to their destination without killing one another! We noted that the pedestrians in China DO NOT have the right of way, but rather it is the vehicle that does and the larger the vehicle, the greater the right of way. Somehow it all works out.

Leaving the city wall, we set out to find the Confucius Temple which we thought was close by on Gongyuan Street. Although we had some difficulty finding the temple, we enjoyed our stroll along the tree lined streets. Along the way, we wandered past a Walmart store and decided to have a look inside to see how the merchandise compared to that of the Walmarts in the USA. Being well past our lunch hour, we decided to purchase a cooked duck which we brought with us into the KFC restaurant , attached to Walmart’s premises. There we sat down at their tables to enjoy our lunch, which my husband considered one of the best we had in China.

After finishing lunch, we finally found Gongyuan street, a lovely pedestrian area lined with restaurants and shops alongside a canal. This area is very touristy and there were men dressed as “coolies” pulling rickshaws as well as motorized open seated transportation available for hire. We wandered around here for many hours, finally selecting a restaurant for dinner. Dinner consisted of an eggplant dish and chicken with cashews, both a bit sweet and fair. We were glad that we remained in the area for dinner as the area was lit up after dark and was very picturesque with boats along the canals and lanterns hanging.

We returned to the hotel by taxi and decided to take a walk around the shopping district nearby which was filled with malls and high end shopping. We were amazed by the beautiful buildings, the massive tv screens everywhere which are used for advertisement and of course the abundance of Starbucks, KFCs, and McDonalds at every turn.

October 26 (Friday) Day 18:

After breakfast we took a taxi to the Sun Yat-Sen’S Mausoleum located in the Zhong Mountain Scenic Area in the east suburb of Nanjing City. As the mausoleum of Dr. Sun Yat-sen, the father of the Republic of China, it is considered the Holy land of Chinese people. With deep historical significance, magnificent architecture and beautiful scenery, it is a must see when traveling in Nanjing and we thoroughly enjoyed our day here. We spent a good part of the day walking through the beautiful grounds of the purple mountain, along the wooded path of the Zhongshan hill scenic area to the Memorial Hall of Dr Sun Yat-sen and surprisingly, we saw no other Westerners the entire day. After climbing the many steps up to the Memorial Hall, we returned to the bottom and boarded a park train which took us to the Xiaoling Tomb of Ming Dynasty. We walked along the sacred path adorned with stone animals – lions, camels, horses and elephants while chatting with several young college students who led us along the way. The fall foliage made the grounds even more spectacular and the weather was perfect, although we could not believe the poor quality of the air which was very smoggy.

Exiting this area, we found a taxi and headed to the Presidential palace on Changjiang Road which we hoped to see before it closed. This palace housed Chiang Kai-shek, the President of the Republic of China before the republic relocated to Taiwan 1949 and it is now the China Modern History Museum. Having only a short time before the museum closed, we raced quickly through it. Unfortunately, it began to rain, curtailing our visit as we wandered the gardens of the palace area. Exiting the premises, we happened upon a Starbucks and stopped in to get out of the rain and to use the internet.

Next up – train to Hangzhou…

By the way...Nanjing is not typically on the tourist map, but we really enjoyed our time there and considered it worthy of a few days visit.

very interesting visit

October 27 (Saturday) Day 19:

Our early morning train departed from the south station train station of Nanjing and we were unable to have breakfast in the hotel before checking out. The train station was quite modern and clean and there were several fast food restaurants on the premises. As we had a short time prior to our departure still, we decided to try a bowl of soup, which happened to be a delicious breakfast. Our train was another G train that traveled at a high speed and the ride was quite comfortable. These trains are smoke free and brand new with modern toilet facilities. We arrived at the Hangzhou train station at approximately 11:00. Upon exiting the station, we searched for the ticket purchase window in order to buy tickets for our next destination (Shanghai). We had read that there is a special window for foreigners, located near the self purchase area, and we easily found this window which made purchasing tickets for the trip to Shanghai very easy. Having tickets in hand, we searched for a taxi to take us to our hotel and found one that agreed to use the meter after several others refused to do so.

We arrived at our hotel, the Ramada Plaza which was well located near West Lake, purportedly the “Most beautiful lake in all of China”. After freshening up, we purchased tickets for the next evening to see the famous “ Impressions Performance on West Lake”. This later turned out to be one of the major highlights of the trip.

We had read about taking a canal cruise and so, we hired a taxi to take us to the location of the cruise boats, however, after driving around for approximately 45 minutes, we were taken to the wrong location. Needless to say, we were a bit tired and frustrated. The traffic was horrendous and the taxi driver had no idea where we wanted to go. Once again, we were surprised to find out what a large city Hangzhou was, as we had been surprised in both Xi’an and Pingyao.

Again, we found a taxi and asked the driver to take us to the Wushan Square area. We wandered down Hefang Street and the surrounding streets, enjoying this lovely area set next to a canal, with shops, restaurants, gourmet food stalls, statutes (Buddha), and lanterns. While very touristy, it was teeming with locals and visitors spending their time shopping, eating, strolling and dancing. There were many restaurants, but the allure seemed to be the food stalls which had crabs on a stick and other delicious food items that the people seemed to be enjoying.

October 27 – Sunday – Day 20:

After breakfast Sunday morning, we set out to meander around West Lake, beginning at “English corner”, only a few short blocks from our hotel. Here we met a group of Chinese men practicing their English skill and were told that these men meet every Sunday to study English. The men were delighted to talk to us and we enjoyed engaging in conversation with them for a short time. The walk around the lake is 15 km and we meandered around it the entire day, enjoying the views of the lake, but more than that, we enjoyed watching the activities and families strolling around the lake, playing musical instruments, singing, dancing and generally enjoying themselves. The lake is surrounded by pagodas, rock gardens, wispy willow trees and made for a lovely day’s stroll. But the highlight of the lake is the magical Impressions Performance on West Lake, which makes a trip to Hangzhou worthwhile in itself. The costumes, the theatrics, the lighting and musical are simply amazing and can easily be compared to the phenomenal job that the Chinese people did in their Olympic showcase. After the performance it is impossible to find a taxi, so we walked back to our hotel approximately 45 minutes away as the performance was on the opposite side of the lake. Exhausted from walking approximately 11 miles during the day, we called it a night, looking forward to our trip to Shanghai the next day and our GTG with other Fodorites the next evening.

Still following along and enjoying. Applauding your effort.....your almost there

Aloha!

Aloha Hawaiiantraveler - thanks for following along. This really has been an effort. Along with this we are working on our photo book which is coming along quite nicely. Looking back at pictures always brings back fond memories. In addition, we just learned that we have a wedding in Israel to attend in April so we must work on those plans. We hope to add on a trip to Petra if it is still safe to go there. More to come on china shortly.

Great info. We were amazed at the traffic in Hangzhou and disappointed that West Lake was in the center of a city with views of skyscrapers. Waiting for Shanghai.

dgunbug - just wanted to let you know I'm still checking in here, although I'm really saving a proper read for when I have more time.

I was in Hangzhou for National Day in 2004, so it was packed! Back then there was no issue with taxi drivers using the meter, though.

Thursdaysd - the issue was more that few taxis stopped, although the few that did stop wanted ridiculous prices.
Marija - we were a bit disappointed in the lake itself and with the fact that hangzhou was not the small pretty city we had imagined. However, we did enjoy our time there,, the people watching and interaction with the men at the english corner. We loved the show which we thought was good enough to go out of the way to see. We also enjoyed seeing people sing and dance together. We encountered a group singing and playing guitar and I especially enjoyed when my husband participated by playing the guitar while others sang with him.

No-where in China is small anymore, a hamlet has become a village, village to small town, town to city, city to mega city, it is mind-boggling and still growing.

I do not know what the current security issues are in Jordan, but if you find it is safe to go to Petra, which is fabulous, you might want to consider staying in Jordan a few extra days to see Jerash and some other very interesting places. We went to Jordan in 1996 when the border from Israel to Jordan first opened, and had a very enjoyable visit.

Am I the only one who found the chinese to be the rudest people I have ever come across? It started when we went to the embassy to get our Visa, they kept trying to jump the queue and a guy in front of us who works in Beijing said "wait until you get there this is nothing" and we found he was right. A queue is for everyone else not for them, even trying to take photos was a problem as they have no issues about cutting in or pushing you out the way to take a photo themselves. We had been to Hong Kong 25 years ago and found the people very courteous and welcoming, when we returned 2 years ago we found a completely different place and talking to the old Hong Kong people they also have an extreme dislike for them but they do bring in a lot of new money so they have to tollerate them.
Anyway dgunbug sorry about my rant I'm really enjoying your trip report it's full of detail and extremely informative and well written, thanks.

Clark55 - while its true that we encountered such behavior as you describe, we did not find it as offensive as you. I believe that the lack of "lining up patiently and taking turns" is either the result of their cultural upbringing or the fact that there are so many Chinese people and therefore, they have found it necessary to be pushy in order to get where they need to be. We did note a bit if discourtesy on trains and I was surprised that the young people did not offer their seats to the elderly, the infirmed, or pregnant woman and mothers with small children. When I offered my own seat to a mother with a young child, she couldn't be more greatful. But, despite these behaviors, we also encountered incidences where people went greatly out of their way for us, walking blocks in the opposite direction of their own destination to show us the way. on another note, I also noticed that the spitting which we had heard about, was only minimal. To me, rather than being offended by behavior different than that which we are accustomed to, I enjoy observing the differences amongst people and wondering about what causes those differences. It's those differences that makes traveling so much fun!

Clark - wanted to also say thanks for reading along and for sharing your comments.

Clark - China is hardly the only country in which the concept of an orderly queue is not part of the cultural DNA. I found individual Chinese people very eager to help, and the few who spoke English would go out of their way to do so.

October 28 – Monday – Day 21:

After breakfast this morning we took an easy 1 hour train ride into Shanghai on the fast “G” train. Our hotel, the Grand Mercure Zho, while not on the Bund, could not have been more conveniently located. As we departed the train, we found the hotel located just minutes walking distance from the station. (Had we come out the correct exit, we would have exited just steps away from our hotel. The metro system in Shanghai is excellent and we primarily used it to get around this very large city. After dropping off our luggage and settling into our room, we headed out to get an orientation of Shanghai.

We took the metro to the People’s Square exit which is at the tip of Nanjing Road. As it was already mid afternoon, our goal was to walk East up toward the Bund where we were to meet up for a GTG with several Fodorites for dinner at Lost Heaven on the Bund. Strolling along Nanjing Road we walked past modern shopping malls, specialty stores, theatres, and international hotels that have mushroomed on both sides of the street. Along with countless famous brands and fashionable shopping, there were KFC, McDonald's, Pizza Hut, and other world-famous food vendors lining both sides of the street. Open-air bars, abstract sculptures, and lingering sounds from street musicians enhanced our stroll. A trackless sightseeing train provides a comfortable tour for those who do not want to walk the pedestrian street, although we enjoyed ambling along the lane.

The walk along the Bund is spectacular and the site of the modern buildings on the Pudong side, which only 20-30 years ago had been farmland, is an amazing site to behold and a tribute to the Chinese, showing all that its people are capable of accomplishing and that which they have already accomplished. During our stay in Shanghai, we were to gravitate to this area on several occasions.

As we had dinner reservations with other Fodorites, our walk on the Bund was limited to a quick stroll along the waterfront. We headed over to the Lost Heaven restaurant which was only a few blocks from the Bund and we met with Peter & Linda (Hawaiiantravelers), Bob & Karen (rhkkmk), their friend Pat, and the Cokesmiths (Coke, Som, & their adorable son, Cokie). As we had previously met Bob & Karen in Florida, it was great catching up with them again. Meeting the other Fodorites was a wonderful experience and the food at Lost Heaven was outstanding. Our GTG almost did not happen as there was confusion when we were seated. We ended up finding the Cokesmiths immediately, but the rest of the party was nowhere to be seen for approximately 30 minutes. After trying and failing to contact Bob, my only contact, I went back to the reception desk and asked again if the rest of the party had arrived. It was at that point that I learned that half our group was seated at another table tucked away at the far end of the restaurant. We combined groups and had a delightful meal and conversation, which ended all too soon. Meeting up with this group was one of the highlights of our trip. Leaving the restaurant, we discovered it was raining and we waited for quite some time before cabs could be found for all. (We actually left the group after waiting awhile and headed back up the street to the Bund where we had to wait another 15 minutes to hail a cab). Being late and nasty out, we headed back to our hotel.

October 29 – Tuesday – Day 22

Today was another rainy day, but we set out anyway dressed in our gortex jackets. We took the subway to People’s Square, walked through the park, which was disappointing due to a lack of activity, but to be expected due to the inclement weather. We were amused that we were stopped to chat by three students, who spoke to us at great length, two of them speaking great English and the third “practicing her English”. They were very smooth and we enjoyed conversing with them, but realized at the end it was the old “tea scam” that we had been warned about.

As the weather was still bad, we headed to the Shanghai Museum, spending many hours their as the displays are quite good and the museum well worth going to. From there, we headed to the Pearl Market located on Nanjing Road and we went directly to the 2nd floor to “Mary’s”. The previous night at dinner I had admired the Fodorite woman’s pearls and they had told me that they got a great price at Mary’s. After haggling for a bit, I purchased a lovely strand of pearls that I am quite happy with. Was the price right or the quality good…who knows? But I am enjoying wearing them. Afterward, I decided that I should buy pearls for my three daughter-in-laws, so we attempted to get the price down even further, but the saleswoman at Mary’s would not budge. We proceeded to look for pearls elsewhere and I found them for an even cheaper price at another booth. It was great fun bargaining and even my husband, who hates to shop, enjoyed himself.

By this time the weather had cleared up and we decided to head west on Nanjing Road past the pedestrian area. We were surprised when we found a beautiful temple lit up against the backdrop of modern buildings. As it was getting late and as my husband was not interested in eating more Chinese food, we stopped at a local Burger King (I know – pathetic!) and got a quick dinner before proceeding back to our hotel.

October 30 – Weds – Day 23

I awakened this day and decided that I’d better make a dental appointment as I had a tooth that had been bothering me. With great trepidation and after finding a “western trained dentist” on line, I made an appointment for the next day. Although the tooth was not hurting greatly, I was afraid to fly at a high altitude with an exposed nerve. Because of this appointment, we did not make arrangements to go to a water town as we had hoped to do the next day.

We began our day by exploring the Yu Yuan Gardens, also called 'Eastern Garden', a typical classical Chinese garden. The finely structured pavilions, winding cloisters, decorated walls and crystal pond together make the garden a charming and tranquil land in the bustling city. We wandered a bit further and explored the less touristy surrounding neighborhood which is not yet built up by modern buildings.

Afterward we returned to the Bund area where we strolled and took pictures of the magnificent buildings. We crossed to the opposite bank to visit the Pudong district, home to the financial district and beautiful modern office buildings, hotels and shopping malls. There is a viewing platform on the Pudong side, where one can stroll around the area, viewing the fantastic TV Pearl Tower and other buildings that can be seen up closer than from the Bund. We considered going up the Pearl Tower, but the entrance fee was $50 per person including a dinner buffet. As we were not sure what was on the buffet and whether it was worth it, we decided against that and instead went up to the Grand Hyatt for a free view of the city from the 86th floor. Unfortunately, it was a very smoggy day and the view was not as good as it would have been on a clearer day. We decided to stay in this area until nightfall so that we could view the buildings with the lights on. We were not disappointed as the view of the lit up buildings was spectacular.

As it was late and we were hungry, we grabbed a quick bite – my husband at McDonald’s, while I chose a delicious bowl of noodle soup with duck from a chain restaurant just above the McDonald’s (the restaurant had a KFC insignia but was not a KFC). The price of my soup was $2.00 and it made for one of the most delicious meals I had in China. The Chinese people eating there seemed to order several dishes for their meal, but I could not see eating more than the soup which was more than filling. The other food sure looked tempting though.

We returned to the Bund side and headed North to explore the section that we had previously missed. Walking toward the red bridge, we got some great pictures and views of both the bridge and the Bund. We walked back up Nanjing Road to People’s Square where we took the subway to our hotel.

dgunbug--This has been a very interesting read. Thanks very much for taking so much time with it. I am thinking of going to China this year, and you've helped me with what to expect, what to see and what to avoid.

Dwdvagamundo - thanks for your words of encouragement. I will try to finish this report soon.

still reading and enjoying

Still here too!

How was that Burger King in Shanghai? What item(s) did they feature that was synonymous with China or Shanghai? We almost stopped by one but passed, lol.

In Japan the KFC's have a Christmas dinner that is reserved by the locals for a month in advance. The special dinner was started in 1974 and is called "Kurisumasu ni wa kentakkii!” (Kentucky for Christmas!)

Aloha!

Thank you for your wonderful report. I am spending almost 4 weeks in China this April and I have been taking notes as I read. You've been extremely informative.

The Burger King was pretty much the same as in the USA - disappointing, but we wanted fast and simple. I wanted pure protein for my diet so I ate a chicken sandwich minus the bread. The KFC chain had grilled chicken sandwiches that were flavored differently than in the USA. We like to check out McDonald's which usually has items specific to the country or region one is in, but we found that in china the chain was identical to that found in the usa.

wait a minute---KFC has a special christmas dinner often reserved in advance....???

next--- mcdonalds serves a filet mignon medium rare from aged prime beef

I recalled the KFC in Shanghai had chicken fried rice and sweet and sour chicken, and served hot tea ...

fascinating. My husband traveled to China in 2000 and agrees with your general assessment. Chinese were very loud and not too eager to please tourists. He saw kids defecating and urinating in public, not even in the slum areas.
I appreciate your thorough glimpse into your experience.

Kurosawa - we did not consider the Chinese people to be rude. Rather their customs and behaviors are different from our own. We encountered mostly friendly and helpful people. As for the urinating and defecating children, that is also their culture. Instead of spending money on expensive diapers, the Chinese children often go el natural with a slit in their pants or shorts for easier management. We found this amusing, because of the difference in our own cultural experiences. That is what we like best about traveling - observing cultural differences, considering why there are those differences and accepting the people for the way they are. One must keep an open mind when traveling.

i bet this would eliminate diaper rash.

Cuts down on laundry, too.

October 31 – Thursday - Day 24 - Suzhou

After breakfast this morning, we walked across the street to the conveniently located Shanghai Train Station and purchased G-train tickets for Suzhou. Trains to Suzhou run frequently (approx every 20 minutes) and it was easy to find the train and to embark upon it. The trains again were modern, comfortable and there was no smoking throughout. Bathrooms were western style. We arrived in Suzhou at approximately 10:30 and were met by many touts selling package deals to visit Suzhou for the day. I believe the cost was 150 yuan for a full day tour which returned to the station at 5:00 pm. As my husband preferred to go off on our own, we declined and after some searching, found a bus parked just outside the railroad station, to take us to the Humble Administrators Garden for 1 yuan each. Outside the gardens was an area lined with vendors selling food and other touristy tchatkas. We were delighted to find mangosteens (a delightful fruit we had discovered first in Thailand) being sold and bought some to snack on. There were other unidentifiable fruits also for sale. We spent several hours wandering through this typically Chinese garden with its combination of water, rocks, trees and pavilions. It made for a pleasant walk, although we were not overly impressed as we had seen other garden areas in China that looked similar with the same elements.

We could have visited other gardens, but suspected that most were similar, so we tried to get information about taking a cruise on the Grand Canal, discovering though that the cruise boats only run at night (at least at this time of the year). We wandered some more, looking for “old town”, but ultimately lost our way and so, we hopped on a new version of transport that we had not seen before – a motorcycle with seats for two (a bit different than the tuk tuks we had ridden in the past). The old town area was very pleasant and we walked for some time along canals lined with houses, shops and restaurant/cafes. It was apparent that this area was in the process of being restored for tourism and the area was extremely picturesque with its old buildings, small boats, and weeping willow trees. The many interesting doorways and walls with peeling paint, made the area feel old and charming and in many ways we enjoyed our time wandering this street more than our time in the gardens.

From the old town, we walked to the center of town and found the main road where there is a typical pedestrian shopping district, as we found in all Chinese cities that we visited. Suzhou again was not the small town we had imagined, but rather a large city like many others we had been to. All cities had the familiar pedestrian shopping districts, food stalls, McDonalds, KFCs, Starbucks, Costa Coffee, etc. Again we grabbed chicken at McDonalds and a coffee at Costa Coffee, the proceeded to walk toward the train station.

After some time and realizing that the station was not as close as we had though, we decided to get a taxi to take us back to the station as it was already 6 pm. Unfortunately, we could not get a taxi to stop, so we had no alternative but to find a bus back to the station. This was no easy task as no one spoke English. After showing four bus drivers our map with our destination, we finally found the correct bus and the bus driver was helpful in advising us when to exit to the train station. We easily found a train back to Shanghai and were amazed that the trip back took only 30 minutes.

As an aside – you may wonder why we keep eating at McDonalds & KFCs. This is totally out of character for us, but my husband is not a big fan of the Chinese food in China. While I wished to experiment with various Chinese dishes, I had just lost a great deal of weight on a high protein diet and wished to avoid eating noodle dishes and other foods that were not on my weight loss plan. When eating in these chain restaurants, I discarded the bread and ate strictly protein. I should point out that I did find all the Chinese food that I ate quite enjoyable and even better than that in the USA. I especially enjoyed the noodle soups, which are like nothing we find in American restaurants(at least in the ones in Florida.

One thing I forgot to mention - I canceled my dental appointment which was scheduled on this day. Miraculously my toothache subsided and I felt no pain shortly after I broke down and made the dental appointment several days earlier. I suspected that the tooth ache may have been the result of sinus problems and I began taking antibiotics just in case I had another flare-up. Perhaps the dental problems disappeared at the mere thought of seeing a foreign dentist whose skills I had no way of knowing!

Diaper free reduces landfill and no need for toilet training!

November 1 - Friday - Day 25

After breakfast this day, we set out to visit the old Jewish quarter, no easy task to find. We were expecting to see some old European history but there was really very little remaining. We did find a synagogue done up as a museum which showed the mercy the Chinese offered Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 1940s, when over 20,000 European Jews seeking refuge from Nazi Germany found sanctuary in China. While at the museum, we were fortunate to come across Dvir Bar-Gal, an Israeli who has done extensive researched on this period of history, guiding a group of tourists at the museum. While we were not on his tour, we were fortunate to overhear much that he said and we found that his unique and insightful stories made the history come alive. I would suggest that anyone interested in learning about the Shanghai Ghetto and the Jewish history here, contact Dvir Bar-Gal in advance to reserve a spot in his tour groups.

After spending the morning at the museum and in the surrounding neighborhood, we walked to the Bund area again and headed North to where the ferry crosses to the Pudong section. Along the way we strolled through a very pleasant park area past very modern apartments and amazing new modern office buildings near completion. Across on the Pudong side, we wandered the waterfront looking back upon the historical buildings on the Bund.

We finished our day with an exceptional buffet dinner at the Shangrila Hotel. While expensive, the dinner was extensive with foods from around the world and we thought it was well worth the price (approx $50/pp). The buffet included foods from China, Thailand, Indian, Malaysia, Japan, Italy, etc.

hamburgers??

in fl in april i want the best hamby you know of...

When do you come in April? We may miss you as we have a wedding in Israel on April 9. However, if we are here, your wish is our command - hamburgers it will be. You've said mike's favorite word.

we will be there apr 12-14... i suspect you will not be back

Afraid we will miss you. Probably back the next week. We still need to get airline tickets.

Still reading and enjoying all the commentary. I have to smile though with your references to Burger King & KFC, because I recall you seemed to recoil when i suggested meeting at an Italian restaurant in Shanghai!

another lurker here and loving what I read so far...

Glad someone's still put there. Barefoot - I really regret that we didnt meet up. As you will soon read, our last day didnt work out as we planned, but I didn't have your contact info on me at the time. I'd really love to hear about your own trip and your impressions about the areas we did not visit in comparison to what we saw.

Been a slacker with continuing my trip report...first have to finalize some things for our next trip to Turkey....while reading Fodor's guidebook today, I saw some quotes and photos from you...so now I have to look up your Turkey trip report!

June...I only responded once way back in your report...but I caught up today and I see you've completed a most engaging, varied, clear and descriptive report. I thank you for that. Back to your theme..as I said, I had to go in by tour in 1984, the only legal way to do it...but we ditched the tour everyday to see and do things on our own, language notwithstanding...and for a month we did a good chunk of China's real estate..also HK and Macao, If I had to do either 1984 or 2007 over again, I would choose the earlier visit, There was something so more authentic with that even with rat-infested hotels (yes!)...Mao blue jackets and bicycles everywhere

I've scanned many of my pre-digital pix from the 1984 visit...and I have all of the digital pix in a Picasa album too. I think I may have shared those with you. By the way, I got a big kick out of the luge in Mutianyu. I also saw the sign about "elderly folks" and did not think it meant me(!) so I paid no further attention. I was almost 80 at the time and lived to tell about it. (see the pix I had sent you before you went on your trip).

Anyway, you've done a great service to Fodorites who are contemplating a trip to China....we loved doing it on our own as you did....but one more time I would take the 1984 trip over it.

I may be in FL on one of my book tours later this year as my publishers are located in FL, near Boca. Will let you know..maybe a mini GTG. I have an old army buddy in Coral Gables.

Thank you, June. Such a fascinating composition (more than just a report).
Stu Tower

Stu - thank you for your kind comments. I take it as a great compliment coming from an accomplished writer like you. I have been meaning to finish this report but have been getting ready for a trip to Israel in April. I really do want to finish it and do a wrap up of my impressions now that I've had more time to reflect. And I cannot believe that you were almost 80 at mutianyo! Please let me know when you will be down here. Barefoot may be in Florida as well.

Barefoot - turkey was fabulous. Are you traveling independently or with a group? We rented a car and had a blast. The ancient ruins are amazing and many times we had them practically to ourselves. I don't recall if I wrote a trip report for turkey. Feel free to email me if you have questions and ill try to answer what I can.

Barefoot Contessa....didn't know you alreay went on your China trip..and a report, too. Equal time for you and June... I must read it. When do you leave for Turkey? Happy Travels...
stu

Nov 2 - Day 26 – Saturday

Being our last day in Shanghai, it was our intent to take a bus to one of the water towns outside of the city, however, after taking a train to the bus station, ending up at the wrong bus station, then finding a bus to take us to the second bus station and learning that it was most inconvenient to take the bus to the water town (no one could tell us when the bus even returned), we scrapped that plan. Being a bit frustrated and having wasted all morning, we headed to the French Concession area where we wandered for a bit, visiting both Sun Yat-Sen’s and Zhou en lai’s homes, both interesting for a short visit. I would suggest that anyone intending to visit the water towns, make arrangements ahead of time and go with a tour or a driver.

On our final evening we returned to the Yu Yuan Gardens area where we found the streets lit up by lanterns and quite lovely. It is always interesting to see places by daylight and at night time as the atmosphere can change greatly. We were pleased to have returned to this area on our last evening. We returned to our rooms after dinner and got ready for our return flight to the USA.

Nov 4 – Day 27 – Sunday

(I just noted that my dates were wrong – two dates listed as Oct 27th) Our flight on Nov 4th left from Shanghai to Seoul, Korea at 2 pm. After a leisurely breakfast and morning, we headed to the airport to depart for home. When we originally got our frequent flyer tickets, we were amazed at our great luck as the connections were so good. I believe we arrived in Seoul around 5:00 PM and had a 7:00 flight out to the states. It was only after hanging up with the Delta agent that we realized our flight left at 7:00 AM and we would have the entire evening in the airport. Having been to the Seoul airport on several occasions, we knew what to expect. This is a lovely airport with great facilities. We pre-booked a room at the airport hotel, dropped off our bags and wandered for several hours. It had been our intention to eat at a nice restaurant, but were surprised to learn that there was only cafeteria style restaurants rather than any we could dine at and relax for several hours. We decided instead to pay the fee to use the Korean Airlines lounge with their comfortable seating, free wi-fi and food. While the food was not gourmet, it was adequate and we had a place to stay for several hours before heading to our hotel room. Our flight on Korean Airlines did not disappoint us and as I’ve reported before, this airline is superior to any American airline we have flown on. The service, the leg room, food, and entertainment were all very good, even in economy class.

SUMMARY:

As we look back at our pictures and reflect on our trip several months later, we have fond memories of our travels through the limited areas of China that we visited. I would like to clarify at this point my initial comments about being UNDERWHELMED by China. I was definitely disappointed by the fact that China was not as foreign as it had been in the past years, but that did not detract from our enjoyment of the trip. We have a great appreciation for the accomplishments of the Chinese people, their strength, their hard work and their ability to overcome the great struggles that they have had to endure over the years. While their political situation has changed greatly in the past years and their freedoms have increased, it was evident to us that the Chinese do not enjoy all the freedoms of the Western world, however, the political situation continues to change as does the Westernization of China. One can hope that China will see the importance of preserving its own culture and history, rather than destroying it all to replicate the western cities.

I would add that traveling on ones own is quite easy and doable if one prepares properly in advance. The Chinese people we encountered were helpful and friendly, the smoking, spitting and pushing much less than we had anticipated. Surprisingly, the pollution, although awful, did not affect my husband’s asthma. This is a tremendous problem that the Chinese government will need to tackle and we have seen recent articles about the dangers of the air quality in China.

Returning from China, I had no desire to make a second trip, however, after reading many responses here regarding other parts of China, perhaps we will return one day and travel to the Southwestern regions that may still reflect more of old China. I hope that I did not offend anyone when I said that I was underwhelmed by China, but I wanted to paint an accurate picture on how we felt during our travels there, given our own circumstances and with the understanding that we had traveled to other Asian countries before this. Certainly our own perspectives are different than those of others and I have heard many say that their trips, even recent ones to China, have been the trip of a life-time.

dgunbug, after China, I wanted something easy to celebrate our 30th so we're first taking a cruise from Venice, to Croatia, Montenegro, Corful, etc. and ending up in Istanbul. From there, we're flying to Cappadocia for three nights and will get a local guide to drive us around...then flying to either stay at Kas or Kalkan....if you have any thoughts on which town is best as a base, I'd love to hear from you. Again, we don't plan to rent a car (well, maybe for a day) and then finish up in Istanbul....so just about 12 nights in Turkey.

stu, so nice to hear from you again! We're leaving in early May for the cruise so will get to Turkey on the 18th.

barefoot - we stayed in Goreme, in a lovely cave hotel and thought the city of Goreme to be a good choice for us. I'm afraid I have no notes and do not recall the hotel name, but I don't think you can go wrong wherever you stay as it is easy to drive between the various towns of Cappadocia. We didn't go to Kas or Kalkan so I can't help you there. Happy 30th!

If you plan to return to China and go to the southwest areas to experience the old China, I'd suggest doing it sooner than later because it is getting harder and harder to find.

june, i still understand your first words completely... while i loved our time in xian and shanghai, it really did not hold a candle to siem reap, bangkok, georgetown, luang prabang, london, paris or umbria and tuscany.

china has many modern day problems, not the least of which is the pollution and looming car traffic issues. if they continue to modernize these too can be fixed, but destroying all but the most important monuments and sanitizing everything emasculates a once great culture.

Thank you so much for your trip report. I have really enjoyed reading it as we will be traveling to china in a few months. Rather than discouraging me from going I think it has helped to make my expectations more reasonable-even my favorite continent, Europe, has places that I'm glad I've seen but won't make a point of hurrying back to. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy my time, but honestly not every trip is a "once in a lifetime" experience! I appreciate all the details and the time you put into this. Thanks again!

Atltravelr - thanks for your kind comments. Please report back to us after your return from china. Enjoy your trip.

Bob - are you cruising from Florida? We haven't gotten our flights yet, but perhaps we can meet up after your cruise if we are back.

yes, we are but its one way east from FL. we fly home directly from nice to jfk to bos...

Thanks guys that was so helpful. A friend also agreed that China looks so modern.

Great trip report! Thank you dgunbug for writing it up and explaining your views and reasons. I'm visiting China for the first time this August, and your comments have been very helpful.

Thanks freedr - nice to see that this report is still being read.

you are welcomed to visit Shandong province next time. We have mount Taishan, confucius family mansion

Not sure what people mean when they say the china of old
Head west to Guizhou Hunan Northern Sichuan etc and you will see some of the old particularly in the minority areas but they are disappearing for sure
I visited china in 85 and 87 days of FEC and black market money etc, pre internet but the first edition of the lonely planet china edition was out impossible to travel without it
Have been visiting china for the last 7 years and have always travelled independently
It is the only way to truly meet the chinese people whether it be on the bus or train
Xingping has a street left which will give you an idea of Yangshou back in the early eighties
Chengdu has remnants of the same era found some in Kunming but probably gone by now
It is still a fabulously vibrant place to visit and i alway discover new places to visit on my ext trip