China Highlights Tours - Reliable?

See posts http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=35125084
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=35149291

The poster frequently posts to praise this company, and has failed to deny suggestions that he may have some commercial connection with it.

You'll find detailed discussions here of why booking on-line with Chinese tour companies is a bad idea, and some criteria to use when selecting a tour company. See this recent thread, for instanc::

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=35153415

Peter N-H

My wife & I went on a four week trip to China this past July & August 2008. Part of our trip was on our own, and part was organized through China Highlights. We loved China and thoroughly enjoyed the China Highlights portion of our trip. The guides, drivers, accommodations, meals, & tours truly added to our vacation. What drew us to China Highlights was their willingness to completely customize our trip based on criteria & specifics that we set. Our travel advisor (the person who actually organizes your trip) called us from China once prior to our trip while we were still in the US, just to follow-up on finalizing some of our travel plans. We even met with her one evening in our hotel lobby while we were in Guilin, adding a personal touch to our visit. Based on our experience, we would highly recommend China Highlights.

Houdi,
We traveled in China in the spring of 2007 as part of a larger SE Asia trip & cruise.
We used China Highlights for our 16 day trip (we used another agency for a later addition in Guilin).
We were very happy with them; they were flexible in arranging the schedules, listened to our requests before arranging the trip, customizing the itinerary, etc. The guides in each city were good to excellent with good command of English.
My only suggestion to them afterwards was that we would have preferred to pay a little extra, if needed, and eat at top restaurants (not just what was convenient) and as we are not shoppers, we would eliminate the stops at "factories". You may enjoy those.
Overall a very reliable company - we can recommend them without reservation.

I travelled with Chinahighlights last june (part of my tour in China). I asked them to organize me a mini-tour from Beijing to Xian, Datong and Chengde and their organization has been perfect: very professional guides, drivers, good restaurants and hotels. I highly recommend them.

i too used chinahighlights to plan our trip. i customized our trip by only hiring guides when i thought we needed them and did not buy any meal plans ex. on full day tours. we had the guides take us to local places where we had some wonderful, fresh meals.

the hotels we stay at were clean and convenient and connections were flawless. i recommend their services.

This is a thankless task as people rarely want to re-consider their choices after the event, especially if there may have been better alternatives. Nevertheless, with future travellers in mind, here is a repeat of suggestions as to how you should go about choosing a tour company, and advice that choosing a China-based tour company is in general unwise.

It is also posted with the aim of avoiding this site going the way of the Frommer's one, in which shills for various companies clog it with posts that pretend to be disinterested advice, add posts in praise under false names, paste in true notes of praise already appearing on their own sites, and are joined by those who genuinely have travelled, and genuinely were pleased, but who actually have no experience of the alternatives, or are unaware of what deceits may on some occasions have been practised upon them. The result can be a torrent of enthusiasm that isn't in fact merited, and that's of course what the shills hope to generate. Let's not see this site reduced to that.

When choosing a tour company, in addition to the usual considerations of route, cultural level, group size, and so on, you should ask some questions:

What is your tipping policy? There is no tipping in China, and in order to be able to offer very low prices some companies spring on you a non-optional tip once the booking is made. This is daylight robbery. If your tour company is recommending that you pay out US$3 per day here, and US$5 per day there, look elsewhere. If they recommend you bring low denomination US dollar bills with you not only look elsewhere but first track down the company's offices and set fire to them before they can rip anyone else off.

China Highlights, which appears to be discreetly spamming this site and thus ought to be avoided on those grounds alone, uses more circumspect language, but also advises that tipping is necessary. It isn't, and it at the very best misleading, and at the worst overcharging you by the back door (to put it kindly), to say it is.

How many shopping stops will there be? Other than tipping-theft policies, this is the main way the company makes money, by repeatedly leading hapless tourists into places that will charge them 10 to 15 times too much for trinkets, and the guide will get 40% (or more), and the bus driver a cash sum, too.

Some companies manage to limit these to one or two per trip (it is almost impossible to avoid them entirely). You can always sit them out (you certainly shouldn't be spending money), but find out how much time you're going to be spending doing that.

Note that one comment above specifically mentions that with China Highlights these stops were too frequent. Given the way these stops work one is in fact too many, but rare even the best of the foreign-run tour companies that can pull that off.

Just how relentless is the pace? The cheaper companies tend to cram in as much as they can. It helps to keep you from freelance shopping rather than shopping from which they can take a bite.

There's no comment on this above, so ask.

Is there a foreign tour manager who will accompany the group the whole time? This is worth paying more for since there are constant problems with downgraded hotel rooms or other non-delivery of promised benefits. An experienced tour manager sees all this coming and heads it off.

Obviously Chinese-run travel companies do not offer this service.

Note that very little of what your tour guides tell you will actually be true, since they have been to schools that teach them what should be said to foreigners. The travel industry is just another part of the overall propaganda effort. Read widely and bring Western source books with you. When taking a tour, even if you prefer to have everything organised for you and to to have to worry about logistics, note that you are paying to be misled, and prepare appropriately.

Note that in the worst cases you'll be in hotels on the edge of big cities with a lot of time wasted in taking buses into the centre. In some you'll stay at one hotel and be bussed to another for lunch (and a shopping demonstration of some kind). In general, especially at the cheaper end, itineraries are driven by whatever's profitable to the tour company in terms of kick-backs, and not by what's best for the tourist. Food is often poor, although those only accustomed to Chinese take-away food overseas may well not realise that they've never had real Chinese food in their lives, nor what they are missing.

One comment about China Highlights above indeed asks for better food.

Some comment is made above about the flexibility of arrangements, but this is true of ALL Chinese tour companies of this kind, and it is not at all unusual for couples to find themselves the only members of all of parts of their tours, or to be able to design a tailor-made tour for what seems a very reasonable price. Margins are large, and income from kick-backs and fraudulent tipping policies make these very viable.

So if you usually travel independently, do it in China, too. But if you do prefer tours, expect widespread dishonesty and book with great caution, and certainly not at random from the Internet, but with a company whose name you know, and liable under the laws of your home country to pay compensation if things don't go well.

If you did travel with a Chinese tour company and had a good time, no doubt much of what is said above will be unwelcome, but don't waste time here shooting the messenger. It is an accurate general description of how organised travel works in China, and the oh-so-sweetness of most of the guides as individuals, some of whom make stunning sums of money by Chinese standards and through entirely inappropriate means, only serves as a mask the underlying mechanisms.

The attitude 'Well I don't care if I paid too much/was cheated/tipped when it isn't appropriate' is of course up to the individual who has already travelled, but who should not resent the warning to make careful enquiries being given to those who have yet to travel.

Peter N-H

Peter N-H
I have been following your posts for some time and while I was tempted to reply, I resisted the urge. I can resist no longer.
I don’t doubt that you are well informed and well traveled in general and in China in particular. You are an eloquent poster as well. But in my opinion you miss some of the points on this and other thread about tours in China.
I will try to address some of the questions you raise.
1 To begin with, I resent your implication that I am a “spammer” for China Highlights or any other tour company. While this practice does exist, do you have any proof that any of the 4 poster on this thread that claim to have traveled with China Highlights is lying? Or that copilot in a different post is making it all up?
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=35125084
One of the benefits of sites such as Fodorite is to be able to read REAL peoples’ experiences (both positive & negative) and not just to Google for hotels, restaurants and guides. That is why people post here – to ask for other peoples’ actual experiences. I think most readers here can make up their minds what to believe and what is a pitch.
My comments about shopping stops and food were made to help others if they so chose.
2 Your comments, while may be true, offer nothing constructive. You simply and categorically state that people should not book with Chinese agencies. What would be more helpful (and what people are likely looking for) is advice. Can you actually recommend a company (any company, Chinese or foreign) that you would recommend (preferable from your own experience, as others have done).
3 You are very big on traveling independently (“So if you usually travel independently, do it in China, too”). I consider myself very well traveled, having visited over 111 different countries all over the world (good part of that was independent travel). Despite that I would not undertake an independent travel in China. Traveling independently in Italy or Spain and doing it in China is not the same thing. For one, most of us cannot read Chinese characters and once you leave the center of Shanghai or Beijing that is what you are likely to see – Chinese characters (and I don’t mean people). Also, you should assume that NO ONE speaks English, because it is close to the truth. The only people that speak English are essentially in the hotels (some) and your guides. You cannot count on running into a college professor or a student on the street when you are lost. Try speaking English to a taxi driver (even in Shanghai & Beijing ) and see where it gets you. But you probably know all this. Even if you don’t speak Spanish or Italian, you can read the street signs; or you can show your Lonely Planet guide book to a local who can read the name of the place you are looking for and thus point you in the right direction. Try that in Xi’An (or worse – in the countryside).
4 You say that “There is no tipping in China”. That may well be true for the peasants in the country but not so in Shanghai & Beijing. China may be officially a communist country but capitalism in alive and well in China. That is especially true for the people most of us tourists would come in contact with. Like it or not, they have learned and accepted “our” ways very quickly. Besides, they are in the service industry. They are paid very poorly and depend on tips much like other people in that business all around the world. This is NOT the China of Mao cca 1985 (when I was there for the first time). These guides have mastered a foreign language (more than most of us can say) and they deserved to be rewarded IF they do their job well.
5 “Note that very little of what your tour guides tell you will actually be true”. That may be true or may not be true, depending on your guide. The average tourist does not know the difference between Ming and Qing dynasty and probably doesn’t care. They will be given many facts about different centuries, dynasties, etc much of which will be forgotten 4 months later. For those truly interested, they can read and re-read for themselves. I rather enjoyed the local guides (usually young students in their twenties) and their view on China vs the outside world. They mostly were enthused and proud to show us their “home”. I was very happy to tip them when it was deserved (usually the case)
6 These tours can indeed be quite flexible with itineraries and hotels; one does not have to accept their hotels if one are willing to do some research. We picked our own hotels in Beijing and Shanghai (and other places, if I didn’t like their recommendation). That flexibility is not there with many other set tours (Viking cruisetours of China, for example). You have to stick to their itinerary without any exceptions. This may be perfect for some but not flexible enough for others.
7 As far as shopping is concerned, it has been my experience that MOST (but not all) people love to shop on their trips. This is probably their first and last trip to China and they want some souvenirs. If their itineraries are full with sightseeing, there is not much time for shopping and these stops are welcome by most. Alternatively, if you chose not to shop – just make it clear in advance.

There are probably other things I might have mentioned, but I think you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

As I said, this is a thankless task. My posting needs to be re-read, as this response is a complete waste of time.

1. Off the high horse. No one has called you a spammer, and no one doubts you are a real person with real experiences. Presumably so am I. No one doubts you intended to help. So do I.

2. My comments are extremely constructive (even if I say so myself), and not happening to like them doesn't make them less so. They prepare readers for poor practices within organised travel in China, and provide a set of questions that intending travellers should ask when trying to differentiate between tour companies. If I don't care to recommend any particular tour company, but suggest that people use the criteria provided and think for themselves, that is surely entirely up to me and no one has the right to demand otherwise.

3. The posting needs to be read again. The only suggestion made here is that those who prefer independent travel should not automatically head for group travel when visiting China.

Tens of thousands of visitors travel independently and without a word of Mandarin every year, and so arguments that it cannot be done are just a waste of breath.

Of course many people prefer organised travel, as is indeed observed in the posting if it is read properly. And its point is to help them make wise choices when they do so, and to avoid some of the pitfalls. Why should this be resented?

4. Entirely rubbish, I'm sorry. But inevitably many who have been conned into tipping while in China will never swallow their pride. That cannot be helped. What's important is that those still planning to visit China (including Beijing and Shanghai, where I've spent a lt of time over the last 20 years) are not equally deceived. There is no tipping in China other than that visited upon hapless foreign tourists, and indeed a popular term for tipping amongst some Chinese guides is 'stupid foreigner tax' (本老外费). Chinese know perfectly well that the price they negotiate for a service is the price they pay, and that's that. If a tour company encourages you to tip it is cheating you, and the real charge for its services is the published price plus these tips. If it tells you that some you meet have no salary and depend on tips it is cheating you further. (Was there actually any other source for this proposal? Isn't that what China Highlights falsely claims on its website?)

Mysteriously no Chinese is paying these tips. And in fact the sums earned by some guides from scalping foreigners are so great that they sometimes have to bid against other guides to buy the right to take out tour groups. But this is certainly no justification for offering them further free money, even if China was a society where tipping was appropriate.

5. Have a guide if you want one--what's there to argue about? But be aware that no information with a political angle (which includes a great deal of historical and cultural material) can be relied upon, and you are paying to be misled. The education system with its single-source Party-approved historical myths, and the guide training system intended to make sure that the right propaganda messages about modern China are put across.

National pride often also plays a part in hyperbole, and of course the hope that if you are told what they think you want to hear you may foolishly provide a tip over the agreed fee. That fact that all this is very unpalatable unfortunately does not make it less true, and the fact that the guides are almost universally very pleasant doesn't make it less true either.

6. As stated, very many Chinese tour companies have the flexibility, which is unexceptional. Very many foreign tour companies do not.

7. Does the fact that some people like shopping make any of the observations about tour shenanigans suddenly less true? Was there any argument against shopping? Is it also true that people who like shopping like being ripped off? Isn't rather the contrary usually the case, and isn't it then rather a good thing to warn them about what's likely to happen to them if they shop at an organised shopping stop and listen to their guide's advice about price?

As I said, this is always a thankless task. The truths of China tourism are sour and unpleasant to think about and to recount. If you've travelled, and fallen into some of the traps, just deal with it rather than denying their existence.

The very detailed claims I set out are based on extensive research, on taking tours of many types in many parts of China specifically to research what's going on, on interviews with dozens of tour companies both Chinese and foreign, on making the acquaintance of many guides and chatting with them in their own language on what goes on, and on more than 20 years of visiting, living, and working in China, and pooling my information with that of other researchers.

I'm not claiming infallibility or asking for applause, and I only mention this because I am claiming to have made a lengthy and detailed study of these issues a little beyond the experience of a traveller with a single visit to China within the organised tourism bubble of a single tour company.

Heaven knows there's no benefit in setting all this out as usually someone always half-reads what's said, takes umbrage, and starts a fight. So before anyone else weighs in, give me some credit for bothering, swallow the pride, learn for the next trip, and allow those yet to travel to have a better experience whether travelling independently or on an organised tour, which is entirely the aim of setting out these remarks in the first place.

Peter N-H

I'm very happy with the service that they provided. I still remember i made several changes on my flight booking and they're very happy to help. The travel advisor tried her best to give me the best connecting flight. There will always be one key person to follow up on your requests. There wasn't any problem communicating thru emails as she always reply on the same day or the next day.

Peter N_H,
Credit was given to you in the second sentence (if read properly, to use your terminology).
I do not wish to engage in endless discussions and arguments - we would probably never agree on everything. I simply posted my point of view for future travelers and I don't see how you can automatically invalidate that. Your observations are valid but so are mine and they are based on more than a single trip to China. Like you say, just because my observations do not agree with yours, that does not make them invalid; nor does it invalidate anyone else's first hand experiences. Independent travel to China is certainly possible, but it is for a very small minority of travelers.
I will sign off on this subject and let's agree to disagree.
Happy travels.

To get in between this heated argument I'd just like to add my 2 cents. Having a holiday is about enjoying yourself - and careful travelers may wish to use folk like - China Highlights Tours - for the enjoyment of peace of mind, and ease of travel. And its proven theis company can do the job it promises, so good luck to those punters since it ain't my money they're using and it aint my holiday they're planing.

But there are others - like me - who, enjoying doing their own independent thing, wouldn't wish to touch companies like this with a 20ft barge-pole!!!!

In short - each to there own - and respect for each others choices - otherwise these forums soon start to resemble a rather eloquent kindergarten bust-up

laowai - I second that motion.
Happy trails to us all!

Personally, I find that going to less than great restaurants, and stopping at factory outlets to shop, or anyplace I prefer not to spend my money, would be a huge negative in going with a particular tour company This would not be just a minor problem, it would be the #1 reason I don't go on tours anymore.

lol, the posts are neither eloquent nor informative......maybe informative but all are in search of new recruits for his website, that's all

He will always mention or refer you to his site from time to time

He does not allow this on his site where he is the SOLE editor and demigod

On his site you would have been deleted before posting

I usually don't get upset with other members but when they constantly use and belittle us I find I must protest

sad but true

lollylo25,
I do agree with you. That is why I mentioned this so that other potential travelers may make those changes before they agree on final itinerary (better restaurants, hotels, less or no shopping, etc). The point is that many companies ARE flexible, you just need to tell them ahead of time (to other travelers it may not matter).
Tours like Viking, on the other hand, are too "main line" and not flexible.
Hawaiiantraveler,
I assume you are referring to Peter N_H - in which case I tend to agree with you. I didn't realize he had his own site.

correct Paul, if you write something not in his bible all of a sudden your an idiot.....go figure

I doubt I would invite PeterN_H to play Santa Claus at our Christmas party. But I hate being manipulated and/or being ripped off. I think someone stole my first diaper in the hospital nursery when I was born. I just hate being played.

I found Peter's advice in this regard accurate and very helpful (as I did yours HT). How he says it or whether he has his own web site is unimportant to me.

Is it worth mentioning that this site is for the discussion of travel in Asia, and not for the discussion of 'what I think of other posters'?

> He will always mention or refer you to his site from time to time

Setting aside that this sentence makes little sense ('always', or 'from time to time'?), and has absolutely no relevance to the matters under discussion, it is a lie, and posted entirely out of mischievousness.

A search of this site produced precisely seven mentions of The Oriental-List (which is not a site, but a mailing list) over the last four years, only one of them by me (in reply to a mention of it by someone else) and none with any information on how to access the list itself. The list is entirely non-commercial, run pro bono, and whether people are members here and/or there, or at other travel sites such as Lonely Planet's Thorn Tree or Frommer's, both often mentioned, is irrelevant. If the list's several hundred members resigned and it closed down today it wouldn't matter in the slightest, but if I wanted to promote it effectively here, I think I'd take a different course than simply failing to mention it.

Postings appear there entirely according to whether they are polite and on-topic as set out in guidelines sent to each new member, just as there are (although sadly rarely enforced) guidelines here. Abusive and off-topic postings such as hawaiiantraveller's above, certainly do not appear, and the rest of the membership is glad of it.

In recent times the list has most often been mentioned here, although not by name, by hawaiiantraveller himself, in other similarly abusive postings entirely free of useful content and that set out to deride it, which is of course only to deride its membership and their discussions. One of these happened to reveal that despite repeatedly claiming to despise the list he was actually a member.

Wishing to spare him further pain, I cancelled his membership, only the second time someone has been thrown off for Internet abuse in the 11 years the list (not a site) has been operating.

I wonder if that could be playing a role here?

It's a shame that Paulchili, after an obvious attempt to avoid further disagreement with his remarks by claiming to sign off the discussion, couldn't keep his word nor refrain from getting personal either.

The discussion here is not on matters of opinion as he now wants to characterise it, but on matters of fact of which the intending China traveller needs to be aware when choosing a tour company or making a choice between organised tour and independent travel (laowai also please note). It is not for or against either method of travel, but about understanding that either is equally possible (as proved by tens of thousands of travellers each year, not a 'very small minority'), and about making an informed choice when using either method.

If posters concentrated on providing factual on-topic material with the aim of helping future travellers, rather than indulging in petty vendettas that only make them look foolish, those of us freely willing to share relevant experience and research would be likely to do so more frequently.

Sh
Peter N-H

don't know....I listed your emails as spam two yrs ago and haven't read any of your propaganda since

you really dislike things you can't control don't you, lol

Peter N-H,
I am going to hate myself for this, but.....
Do you have the reference for exactly how many people travel annually to China independently vs on tours?
I can make a guess (tours would outnumber individual travelers by 50 fold, maybe more), but that would just be a guess. Please provide the source of your information where "tens of thousands" travel independently to China (and how that compares to group travel in terms of numbers) and I will be educated by it and apologize to you. Obviously, it has to be a reputable and verifiable source, as you pride yourself in providing "factual information"

yes,colduphere you are correct, he does have some very useful information, but just try and give some info on China that he doesn't agree with and see what happens to you....well just take a look at the thread above

What on earth is the point of this query? I have no idea what the hard numbers are of actual independent travellers and can only report running into vast numbers whenever I'm there: in myriad hostels, at sights, on one-day bus tours, on bikes poring over maps at intersections, in the club lounges of major hotels, filling the bars in Sanlitun, packing out towns like Dali, Lijiang, Yangshuo, haggling at markets, etc. Perhaps it's necessary to get out of the organised tourism bubble to see them, but I doubt it. They're everywhere at the same sort of greatest hit sites that form the total content of most tours, but they're running round a far larger list of lesser-known destinations, too. How many do there need to be to count?

But supposing I (and everyone else) didn't run into them everywhere (and heaven knows even the most casual search of the Internet will find them chatting about their experiences and plans all over the place) what would that have to do with whether the idea that it's *necessary* to take a tour in China is wrong or not? Couldn't it be wrong even if no one currently travelled independently?

The fact that so many people do travel independently is merely a short-cut argument to show it's possible. The aim of describing them as a 'very small minority' is clearly to suggest that the number is small enough not to count (however that would be calculated), and is no less rhetorical than describing it as 'tens of thousands' although that's both personal observation as well as a shorthand for saying it's enough to prove that independent travel is perfectly possible and entirely commonplace (although in truth its the mind-set of the traveller not inherent difficulties for the traveller that actually matter).

If the short-cut argument is to be abandoned (although not being able to say the number is exactly 102,597, or 21.2% or whatever it may be is neither here nor there) then lets look at the detail of the arguments originally presented:

> I consider myself very well traveled, having visited over 111 different countries all over the world (good part of that was independent travel). Despite that I would not undertake an independent travel in China.

But that isn't an argument against it that has much influence on all the others who do do it, clutching their Lonely Planets or whatever in their hands. You may have chosen not to do it that way, and that's entirely up to you. Many others also make the same choice, and there's nothing wrong with that, either. But that doesn't make it a necessary choice nor is it relevant to those who may be wondering which way to tackle it themselves.

> Traveling independently in Italy or Spain and doing it in China is not the same thing.

Nor is it the same as travelling in many other countries. This doesn't help much.

> For one, most of us cannot read Chinese characters and once you leave the center of Shanghai or Beijing that is what you are likely to see – Chinese characters (and I don’t mean people).

There are many countries where I can't read the script (although China is not one of them). I've just returned from driving round Bulgaria where almost everything was in Cyrillic (just code to me). If I only travelled independently in countries where I could read the script there are a lot of countries I wouldn't have been able to visit. In fact China is littered with English signs (although of course one could always hope for more)--driving there (except for the other manic behaviour on the roads) would be easier than it was in Bulgaria. Airports, major sights, hotels, and most road signs have plenty of Latin script and English signage.

But even if there was almost no English at all (as when I first began travelling in China more than 20 years ago, sharing rooms, restaurants, and train compartments with many other independent travellers) that's no deterrent to travel at all. As many here have recounted, all you do is get your destination written down in characters and hop in a taxi.

If you happen to consider this just too much of a fuss, fair enough. You make your own choices. But others need to know that getting about in this way is both perfectly possible and entirely commonplace.

Look at the fun Lyn Clarke is having on this current thread:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=35159504

She doesn't have a word of Mandarin, and is using precisely the techniques described. She's clearly managing very well, and there are others on this forum who are in no way travel diehards who are also about to set out independently, as their frequent posts here have made clear. You may not want to travel this way. But why deny it to anyone else?

> Also, you should assume that NO ONE speaks English, because it is close to the truth. The only people that speak English are essentially in the hotels (some) and your guides. You cannot count on running into a college professor or a student on the street when you are lost. Try speaking English to a taxi driver (even in Shanghai & Beijing ) and see where it gets you.

All true. But what does that have to do with it? It's certainly no deterrent to travel. I only speak three languages, so I've visited many countries where I didn't speak a word of the local language, and there was precious little English on the street. So what? I expect most people on this site find this a commonplace experience when they travel independently. With a map and a sense of direction and where you want to go written down why should this be a problem? It's only a problem if that's simply not your idea of how to travel. But it is many other people's idea. Again, see the link above.

> But you probably know all this. Even if you don’t speak Spanish or Italian, you can read the street signs;

Most street signs in China have script you can read on them. But if not you can always compare the characters on them with those in your book.

> or you can show your Lonely Planet guide book to a local who can read the name of the place you are looking for and thus point you in the right direction. Try that in Xi’An (or worse – in the countryside).

Indeed, showing the characters for your destination is the route to success, and generally better than trying to pronounce them. Illiteracy rates are high, but not high enough to be an impediment. The problem is more that people in the countryside are too busy staying alive to have broad horizons, and if they don't need to know where a particular facility is, such as a hotel they'd never be likely to use, then they may not know which way to sent you. But generally they shout to someone else, and people passing get curious and join in, and there's a lively debate until someone points you in the right direction. Either you're the kind of person who thinks that's part of the fun, or you're not. Neither view is right or wrong, and each must travel in the manner that he or she pleases. The fact that one person may be reluctant to travel in this way shouldn't prevent others from doing so. It's perfectly possible. It's done all the time.

There have been suggestions that I am against group tours and that I am wrong to be against them. I say (yet again), that I am merely in favour of travellers making informed decisions, and that those who enjoy independent travel should not automatically consider China a place where they can't travel in the way they usually do.

Accommodation is plentiful, public transport will take you anywhere you want to go, for most of the year tickets to most destinations are no longer difficult to obtain, and independent travel costs are much lower. There's rarely any need to book in advance (in fact that's usually a bad idea) and so travel itineraries can be more flexible than those of even the most flexible of tour companies, and changed on the fly while already in China.

The most pleasant travel experiences in China are generally found in places away from mass tourism which the independent traveller has the opportunity to visit (although as with Dali, Yangshuo, etc. inevitably organised tourism eventually catches up. These were independent traveller spots for more than a decade before organised tourism discovered them). In between fully organised travel and fully independent travel there are myriad middle ways using one-day tours, ticket agents, hiring taxis for the day, and so on. And even using most of these still keeps you away from the scams and overcharging common to organised tourism.

In short anyone who chooses to do this can do it, at many different levels of luxury and convenience, if that's what they decide they want to do. If not, then there are many different types of tour.

But this is a lot of words on an entirely unimportant subject. Large numbers of non-specialists travel independently in China for business and pleasure, and large numbers in organised groups of various different types. In possession of the facts for and against both types of travel, visitors to China can make their own informed choices.

Peter N-H

Just a note to say that if I could manage China on my own (very happily) then pretty much anyone could...
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=27&tid=34656568

Compared to, say, India, China is duck soup.

(mmmm, duck...)

"all you do is get your destination written down in characters and hop in a taxi." - or show it to the person selling bus tickets, or match it to the sign in the bus window, or to the departure board in the train station... Or even copy the characters out of (e.g.) Lonely Planet yourself.

I've visited China both ways - a high-end tour, a budget tour (with shopping stops only in Khotan), and on my own. On my own was without question the most fun. I wouldn't criticize anyone taking a tour, especially for a first trip (that's what I did, after all), but Peter is right that doing it yourself is perfectly possible.

At the end of my first tour, tired of feeling I was in a cocoon, I mentioned to my assigned roommate that I figured I could handle China on my own, and although she had gone off on some "independent" excursions with me, she said she couldn't imagine doing that, so everyone's comfort level is different.

And even in the west, where there's less English, and the dialect is different (even the word for beer seemed to be pronounced differently, although "rice" sounded the same), I found people eager to help.

The real value of guiding comes when you wish to visit those places that lie off the beaten track - especially when the guiding comes with its own transport. The type of guides involved in this kind of tour are those with very specialised local knowledge - who can correspond with clients, over a longer period of time, to advise on likely destinations and tailor make routes to suite specific needs. These needs may have something to do with hobbies like - photography, hiking, natural history, visiting ethnic minorities - all those interests that are difficult to fully cater for within the normal mainstream China tours - where the normal guide has little understanding of the special needs that often go with these activities. And since these specialist holidays may involve complicated travel routes while journeying around remoter areas there is also that time factor of trying to get in as much as possible in the shortest period of time. So in these circumstances it’s only logical to get the help of an expert guide - just so you can get do more in your limited holidaying time.
It's also important to realise a good guide understands that there is more to a workable 2-ways communication than mere language. Here is where the difference lies with some of the big tour companies and their guiding services - since guiding often works best when its practiced at a personal level, rather than just shunting a few more customers through those well-trodden tourist spots.

Remember there still remains vast areas of - "off the beaten track" in China - and this type of destination can make for a fantastic change from the usual hyper-congested, mega-noisy Chinese tourist ghetto - but it'll usually takes an understanding and experienced helper to get you there!!

laowai,
well said. This again applies to a very specialized group of travelers who either have special interests or have been to China and seen the Great Wall a dozen times or so; or they simply prefer to travel off the beaten path.
Don't forget that there is a very large number of people (majority)
who have never been to China before (or maybe not even to too many other places) and are not intrepid travelers and they do want to see the Great Wall and the Forbidden City (and likely will not have a chance to go back again).

Peter N_H (& amy & thursdaysd & others),
I have never maintained that individual travel to China is not possible or that no one does it. If you can find such a statement by me, please point it out.
I simply stated a few facts, which I believe to be true (they are not necessarily absolute truths, however).
1 Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist. Obviously it can and has been done by many, but MOST people don’t have the time, the skills and the desire to undertake such an exercise. You and many others obviously do. I only asked about the numbers, because you don’t seem to feel that independent travelers are the exception (or minority) and I do. Even if “tens of thousands” of people traveled independently to China (a number I doubt), even then they would represent a “small minority” of the “tens of millions” of tourists visiting China. That is all I said.
And yes, travel to China IS more difficult than to other countries where we do not speak the language either. Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written) but the shear size of the country, very poor infrastructure among many others. Most of us cannot speak or read Japanese either, but few would disagree that China is more daunting than Japan (there many more people speak English, they have generally excellent signage, great trains & public transport; all simply because they are much more developed as a country and have been at it (tourism) a lot longer. Again, I do realize that people travel independently to Russia, Bulgaria, Laos, Cambodia, India and other countries, but again, they are the more adventurous and experienced travelers (the exception), not the majority.
I think only a fool would say that it is just as easy to travel independently in China as it is in Europe (Italy, Spain, etc) – I don’t think I have to elaborate on that point. It is possible to travel to either place independently but it is NOT the same. I am saying this particularly for the benefit of those that normally do travel independently and perhaps they feel if they have done so in Europe they can do it in China too. Yes they can, but it is NOT the same. Just like running a marathon – many people can do it, but not most.

2 Just like you are telling people on this board that individual travel to China is possible, the same way I am trying to point out that group travel is also a good option for many. They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways. They do need to be informed and make wise choices regarding their itineraries, hotels, shopping options, etc.
One of the purposes of a board like this to ask others for their experiences and then benefit from their advice.
We do agree that it is possible to travel to China both independently and in groups and it is each person’s individual choice of what they are comfortable with. Which ever way they travel, the more they put into the research for their trip, the more they will get out of it.
This time I am definitely signing out on this subject for good – I have said all I wish to say about it; anything after this would only be argumentative and I do not wish to do that.
Once again – happy travels to all.

Well said Paulchili!

In amongst a lot of back-pedalling here, there's a failure to address some of the points made, a lot of playing fast and loose with generalities on figures, and still the assertion that independent travel in China is especially difficult:

'Independent travel to China IS very difficult and definitely not for the average tourist.'

You've already seen people post here to point out that they have travelled independently and that they are not superwomen, and I can almost here gales of laughter from the crowds on their Asian trips for whom China is just one more stop. The claim that it is not for the 'average tourist' is entirely empty if you're already picking your own definition of 'average'.

Independent travel in China is utterly commonplace, self-evidently manageable as even the most cursory search of this site will reveal let alone sites like Lonely Planet's Thorn Tree with its vast on-going discussions of very little else but independent travel.

But although the evidence against the proposition that it 'IS very difficult' is all around you once you're in China (in the form of people doing it), one argument being ignored is that the level of difficulty of independent travel has anyway no direct link to the numbers of people who do actually undertake it as a proportion of total foreign visitors.

The numbers of those who do it, even if they were vanishingly small (which anyone with experience of independent travel in China will tell you they are not), would given no indication of whether independent travel could or should be undertaken by more people. Possibly more people travel to France and Italy by organised tour than independently, but does that make those countries impossible? Of course not. It just isn't relevant.

Perhaps indeed more would travel independently if there weren't very many, both within the organised travel industry with their own best interests at heart, who frequently put it about that independent travel is impossible (or that rural regions cannot be reached without specialist help). And it perhaps more would travel independently if some who have only taken organised travel in China and refuse to countenance the idea after the fact that they didn't have to, or that their way wasn't best, weren't compelled to tell others that it is too difficult or inconvenient.

Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the supposedly special daunting quality of China. If you are going to allow yourself to be daunted, you will be. The actual arguments advance are a bit thin:

> Among the reasons making it so are not just the language itself (spoken & written)

This has already been tackled, and does not present a meaningful impediment to travel, as others here have also attested.

> the shear size of the country,

How could that possibly be relevant to most travel? Are most travellers trying to see every corner? If the six points, say, to be visited are 500km apart, or even 1000km apart, rather than, say 100km apart, does that somehow materially affect the process of getting a ticket, getting to board the vehicle used, or the experience of being on it?

> very poor infrastructure

Have you actually been to China recently? If you venture into the countryside you'll often have to do with the beaten up transportation you'd expect from a developing country, and certainly not with some especially arduous quality unique to China. But there's public transport going almost everywhere. If you are going from city to city, not only will you find airports on average superior to those found across North America (as surely even package tourists must note); frequent train services of a punctuality superior to that of most developing nations, and the rolling stock almost all airconditioned and between larger cities in particular of unexpected comfort; and luxury aircon buses cruising down a rapidly expanding network of new highways (some are so clean they require you to take off your shoes when you enter). Some of these buses, particularly in the eastern part of the country, even venture into quite rural areas. None of this is exactly arduous, and while it can certainly also be tougher in remoter areas, not with any toughness special to China.

None of this is very convincing, any more than is the random choice of Japan for comparison. Of course, if you find it intimidating that's up to you. Some would find Japan too intimidating as well. But those considering independent travel should know the facts before making a decision. One person's 'impossible' can be another's 'too tiresome to bother with', and many others 'dead easy', or 'working it all out was part of the fun'. Again, see the link given for an excellent first-hand account of independent travel by people who certainly don't consider themselves super-heroes, have no previous experience of China, cannot speak or read a word of Mandarin, and yet who are doing very nicely, thank you.

Group travel is indeed a good option for many, but no evidence that independent travel for many others. It seems absurd to deny it.

> They will not automatically be cheated, lied to and abused in unimaginable ways.

The will very frequently be cheated, lied to, and misled in entirely imaginable ways, and its important that they know that. It isn't automatic, but it is standard behaviour, and advice otherwise from someone who not only appears to have been subjected to this (tipping, shopping, poor food) but is in denial about some of that might perhaps be open to question. If that person actually tried independent travel in today's China before dismissing it, then arguments about its difficulty might also have more credibility.

To avoid the shenanigans commonplace on organised tourism in China, but not unavoidable (for the most part) intending travellers on organised tours need merely make the enquiries suggested, allow the answers to inform their choice of tour company, and sit out the shopping stops when they are unavoidable.

Peter N-H

lol, you missed your path in life. You should have been a politician.

Are you one?

I have never seen so much backpedaling as you say and just plain bs in a thread for a long time. Thanks for the entertaining read

bookmarking

I missed this the first time through: " You say that “There is no tipping in China”. That may well be true for the peasants in the country but not so in Shanghai & Beijing."

This is absolutely wrong. Having been infected by the tipping culture in the US, a couple of times I attempted to tip a taxi driver who I felt had really gone well beyond normal expectations, both times in big east coast cities. Both times the tip was returned. I didn't tip in restaurants, and no-one seemed surprised.

If you're going to China, please don't try to import the tipping habit!

thursdaysd,
the tipping was in reference to English speaking tour guides, not cab drivers or restaurants (that was what Peter N-H was objecting to with tour companies). None of my tour guides objected to their tip; in fact they thanked me profusely. As I said, capitalism is alive and well in China and growing.
And Peter N-H, I will keep my word and not engage or respond to you as I had promised (it is too confrontational).

I found there were more English signs in Beijing and Shanghai than there were in Tokyo and Kyoto. I could be way off the mark though.

Paul - I rather doubt that the peasants in the countryside you referenced in your original statement have anything to do with English speaking tour guides. And Peter did not say "there is no tipping of tour guides", he said "there is no tipping in China". Period. Except by people like you who insist on importing it, or others who are misled by their tour companies. And capitalism is perfectly compatible with a lack of tipping - just ask the Aussies.

culduphere,
"I found there were more English signs in Beijing and Shanghai than there were in Tokyo and Kyoto. I could be way off the mark though."

Don't forget that Beijing (& Shanghai) just spent the last couple of years preparing for the Olympics. Beijing & Shanghai are not the problem anyway, they are quite western nowadays.
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?

thursdaysd,
of course the tipping refers to tour guides and not peasants. The peasants (and cab drivers, etc) do not expect tips, tour guides do (in China and everywhere else in the world). Tour guides know about westerners and their customs, peasants do not; that is why the tour guides have learned to expect it. I did not start that custom nor can I stop it.
If you travel independently, you definitely do not have to tip anyone. You may even choose not to tip your guides if you travel in a tour group; it is up to your discretion. I see it frequently in other countries as well where tourists avoid tipping the guide (even though the service was good). I think those people are ill mannered and “cheapskates”. You will not be arrested if you don't tip your guide in China. You do not even have to tip in a restaurant in US, for that matter, if you choose not to – it is always your choice. You can feel real proud of it and sleep better because of it - you are saving China

> And Peter N-H, I will keep my word and not engage or respond to you as I had promised (it is too confrontational).

No one who starts out by making a post directly targeting an individual by name and disagreeing with him extensively, then going on to get personal, is in a position to complain about getting confrontational. And posting in a public forum and then hoping to avoid debate by saying you won't reply (and then replying anyway) is absurd. There is no point in personalising a debate which should be about the facts of travel in China, for the benefit of those yet to travel. Let's stick to the truths of the matter, which are entirely independent of whoever speaks them.

But no one, having been duped in ways entirely standard to Chinese tour companies, should be encouraging others to be duped in the same way.

There is no tipping in China, and any tour company that tells you that there is is cheating you, using suggestions that you should tip as a way of keeping the up-front tour price low. China Highlights' behaviour is nothing more than further evidence that this is a typical Chinese tour company to which a wide berth should be given.

It's common practice, though, and as already mentioned, those intending to travel on tours should be examining tipping policies carefully. Some are only sprung on you after you book, and some then make it very clear that the tip is compulsory (and isn't that rather different from the usual definition and purpose of a tip?)

Others have a grip on all this, charge proper prices, and spare the visitor to China any of this aggravation. Yet others despairingly take a middle course, with the tour leader gathering together a tipping kitty, contribution to which is optional, and which is then used sparingly for sums appropriate to real costs rather than developed nation costs.

But as I said right at the beginning, there are always those who have fallen for this sort of nonsense who cannot bring themselves to admit that they have been duped. But for the benefit of those yet to travel, let's just run once again through the usual arguments trotted out, both those that in desperation have already been mentioned (some already tackled by Thursdaysd), and those tired old canards no doubt due to be trotted out any minute.

These conversations usually start with someone making the laudable enquiry: What's the right rate to tip in China? People who ask this generally wish to abide by local norms, and quite right, too. And the answer is, to abide by local norms, do not tip at all. There is no tipping in China outside that forced on the Chinese by insensitive foreigners, and that gulled out of foreigners by unscrupulous guides.

And here are the standard retorts:

'Oh you're so cheap'

Me, other better-informed travellers, foreigners resident in China (except for a few really clueless ones or those who haven't been there long enough to have their Chinese colleagues laugh them out of it), and 1.3 billion Chinese. They never tip. I'm in good (and very ample) company.

'Oh but these people aren't taking tourist services--those are the ones you have to tip'

No. The Chinese do not tip for these services either, and when recently a Chinese tour company did start to introduce such tips for Chinese tourists, it was the subject of sharp editorial in Chinese newspapers and the idea was dropped.

Only rapacious tour companies targeting foreigners (including some Western ones simply packaging up a product that's run by Chinese on the ground and who don't understand what's happening) gull them into handing out free extra money. And this is the money some of the guides themselves, whether they speak English, German, or Arabic, call 'stupid foreigner tax'.

'Oh but Xiao Mei was such a sweetie and worked so hard'

Xiao Mei has it very easy compared to most Chinese. She works in a relatively pleasant, clean, safe, and civilised environment. Lucky for her she's not running a corner shop or other small enterprise at which she would be working from the first hour there might be a customer until the very last, and for a much smaller return.

Xiao Mei has also been getting yummy kick-backs from every angle that can be conceived, and her total annual income, including the money made by cheating foreigners, may be as high as US$30,000 (according to a foreign professor at one of China's tourism colleges, and the head of one foreign-owned Beijing-based tour company).

That's several dozen times the salary of even a university professor. Does the earning of much of it by graft actually deserve further encouragement? No wonder Xiao Mei is so sweet and rushes about so much. She's got a second mortgage to support (or maybe a third by now).

'Oh, but tips are all they get.'

You heard this from the tour company, right? Is that a reliable source?

As already mentioned, it may be even worse. The tour guide may be paying the tour company for the right to take out the tour. And it's worth doing that because of all the opportunities for graft taking out a tour group presents. Different tour companies organise things differently, and sometimes restaurant kick-backs go straight to the tour company, as hotel ones do. But the opportunities for kick-backs from shopping, of which the cheaper tours tend to ensure there's plenty and to spare, provide the most luscious opportunities. If you're given a 'discount card' as a supposed benefit of travelling with a particular company, but sure to put it away. It only guarantees that prices are pushed up yet higher to cover the cost of the kick-back, and tells the seller which guide the kick-back goes to.

Even supposing there was tipping in China (which there isn't) or that tour guides were some special case (which they aren't) is this the kind of behaviour that should be rewarded, or the kind of structure that should be reinforced?

'Oh, but I gave a tip and it wasn't refused'

Oh please. 'I left the window open and the burglar didn't object at all.' This is nothing more than proof of the unscrupulousness of the guide. Try to tip in most real circumstances and you'll meet with puzzlement or an outright refusal. Trying to get a taxi driver to accept a gratuity for returning some valuable item you left in a cab can involve practically forcing open his fingers to put the money in.

Waitresses pursue you down the street to return change left on the table (and if they don't you're eating in the wrong, tourist-targeting places). There's simply no mechanism for dealing with this; it isn't the local custom.

But within the carefully crafted bubble of tours organised for foreigners, the industry has learned that there are some foreigners who inexplicably insist on handing over free money, and they've re-engineered things to take advantage of visitors in this way as well as in many others. They certainly want you to believe that for some reason all normal rules are suspended.

'Oh, but she expected a tip'

And expectation is proof of a right, as opposed to abuse of the visitor, in what way?

'Oh, there used to be no tipping, but China's capitalist now.'

As already pointed out, there's no correlation between being capitalist and having tipping. Australia, New Zealand, and Japan would all be a bit surprised to find themselves being called communist, to name but three. Even in countries where there is tipping the amount of the tip, and the services attracting tips vary widely. In China, as in some other countries, it's nil.

If you're staying in a foreign-run hotel, try looking in the manual in your room. In many cases you'll find a reminder that you shouldn't tip. In a few cases there are still signs up about this. If your bell-boy pressures you for a tip, just call the management. But the chances are good he'll be fired, so consider your actions carefully. (But in many hundreds of room nights in all grades of hotels including many of the most luxurious in China I've only ever once been asked for a tip.)

Live and work in China and you'll find foreigners who tip are the subject of puzzled derision among your Chinese colleagues. Many in China are embarrassed at the exploitation of foreigners by tour guides (although many others think foreigners are by definition fair game), and resent the sums they amass, although in some cases simply envious that they do not have the same opportunity. Even someone with first-class English who starts work at a foreign company or joint-venture is unlikely to be taking home at the very best more than a 30th of some tour guides' income; English-speaking staff at hotels make less still (although demand in recent times has been pushing their salaries up a bit).

If, armed with all this knowledge, you knowingly book with a tour company that practices this kind of deception, then perhaps you'll feel obliged to fork out, although you'd be wiser to choose a different tour company to start with, and all you are doing is ensuring the continuation of these rip-offs. If you take a one-day tour with an English-speaking guide you will not be expected to tip (there's no magic link between speaking English and getting tipped, in case that isn't already clear--there is no tipping), and certainly on tours also taken by Chinese the question will never come up.

In China, the sum you agree for a service is the price you pay. Not a penny (fen, in China) more or less.

Peter N-H

> Don't forget that Beijing (& Shanghai) just spent the last couple of years preparing for the Olympics. Beijing & Shanghai are not the problem anyway, they are quite western nowadays.
The problem is outside these 2 cities - how much English did you see there (did you even travel outside those two cities)?

The claim is that independent travel in China 'IS very difficult'. But independent travel might well consist of solely visiting these two cities. If you insist that your definition if independent travel has to be travel to difficult corners of China then of course it is self-fulfilling.

But this has already been tackled. Most streets in most Chinese cities, including many unlikely to be visited by any foreigner whether for business or pleasure, have their names in Latin script. Most hotels of three stars or up have their names in pinyin (Romanised Chinese) or in translation, and this is even more true of those towns and cities that see any tourism at all, whether group or independent.

Did you even travel outside Beijing and Shanghai?

And, as has already been pointed out by more than one respondent, even if there were a total lack of English or Latin script, this is of little impediment to getting around as long as the traveller is possessed of a little common sense.

Ignoring the arguments presented, or pretending that large numbers of ordinary people (to whatever decimal place) with no Mandarin at all, don't routinely get around China on their own, won't make these facts go away.

Peter N-H

Paulchili - we also went to Xi'an. I would say there was less English there but as much as we saw anywhere in Japan. In any event, this is subjective on my part ... I didn't know at the time I would be in this discussion.

Thanks Peter - I knew you'd say it better than I could!

On English signage - I really don't remember whether the western cities had noticeably fewer English signs than the eastern the last time I was there ('04, before the Olympic prep really got underway), because by that time I'd figured out how to navigate without them. Certainly in the smaller places I went there was extremely limited English, but I actually found China easier to handle than Russia.

Paulchili.
This started out as a discussion on a particular tour company, and is ending up on tipping in American Restaurants.

If you are a visitor to the U.S.A. and go out to eat, please tip the service personnel. You are their income. They get taxed on presumed tips. Tips in the USA are part of the income.

hahahaha, thank you I knew I wasn't the only one

Aloha!

Mahalo, HT, as lonely as it was, you were absolutely right from the very beginning, this character is one of a kind. Aloha!

According to Paulchili, people who don't tip their tour guides in China are "ill mannered and “cheapskates”". This seems a very US-centric view. For a start, tipping is by no means a worldwide custom. I'm from New Zealand and we don't tip, so obviously if Americans visiting NZ don't tip either we don't regard them as either ill-mannered or cheapskates. And tipping isn't customary in China. When I visit the US, I tip. When I visit China, as I will be doing in a couple of days, I won't be tipping. Do as the locals do.

Solarflare,

Very interesting reply for your very first post on Fodor's, welcome!

Also interesting that your writing style is amazingly similar to someone else on this thread

Hawaiiantraveler: thanks for the welcome. This actually isn't my first Fodors post as I have posted in the past in the New Zealand forum answering people's questions. Perhaps that was too long ago to show up in the index as I can't see any of my posts when I search on my username. In any case, it will also be my last post, at least for a while, as I am leaving very soon for my first China trip. Hopefully when I return I will be able to answer questions on this forum in return for the helpful information so many people have posted here that I've benefited from in planning my trip. As for your comment about my writing style, I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean. It may have meant more to me if I'd been able to read the entire thread, but I have been skimming to pick up last-minute advice. I should really be packing.

Having finally zipped my case and weighed it (oh no, 20 kg and that's before I even get there - lucky I'm not a shopper) I've had time to come back and read this thread in more detail. It seems I have unwittingly got embroiled in some kind of argument I want no part of. Hawaiiantraveler's post appears to be suggesting I am another poster posting under a different name, which is so "out there" I can't see any point in responding. It's a rather odd welcome to this board.

The only reason I responded to this thread was the suggestion that not tipping is by definition a cheap thing to do. It seems a worthwhile thing to me to correct any idea that tipping is a universal custom in developed countries. It isn't, in my culture and in others. I'll leave it at that.

Have a good trip Solarflare. Great name by the way.

Have a nice trip!

Funny, all my posts for the last 4 years are showing when I check and they list in the thousands.

Aloha!