China and 4 teens!
Jan 9th, 2004, 07:02 AM
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China and 4 teens!
We would like to go to Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing with our 4 teens. I was checking out tour companies inside China, but was wondering what would be the least expensive way to go?
thank you for your advice.
[email protected]
thank you for your advice.
[email protected]
Jan 9th, 2004, 08:07 AM
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Far and away the least expensive method is simply to book your travel and accommodation in China as you go. This is not difficult, especially on a such a limited itinerary between relatively well-developed cities bristling with accommodation choices and English speakers.
If the order of travel is as given, then English is everywhere in Hong Kong, and you can easily book rail tickets to Shanghai over the counter yourself (although the train leaves every other day). If you plan to fly then the same is true, although you can fly for about 60% of the HK prices by crossing the border to Shenzhen. There are direct ferry services to Shenzhen airport, and you can arrange all that in Hong Kong, too, if you wish. Hong Kong flights mostly go to Pudong airport which is a very long way out of Shanghai. Domestic flights from Shenzhen go to Hong Qiao, which is very close to the centre.
There are several comfortable high-speed overnight trains to Beijing from Shanghai, or many daily flights. Your hotel will book either, or you can get a travel agent outside the hotel to do it more cheaply. On air tickets always bargain down the price. Rail ticket prices are fixed, but the commission per ticket should be no more than Y20.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
If the order of travel is as given, then English is everywhere in Hong Kong, and you can easily book rail tickets to Shanghai over the counter yourself (although the train leaves every other day). If you plan to fly then the same is true, although you can fly for about 60% of the HK prices by crossing the border to Shenzhen. There are direct ferry services to Shenzhen airport, and you can arrange all that in Hong Kong, too, if you wish. Hong Kong flights mostly go to Pudong airport which is a very long way out of Shanghai. Domestic flights from Shenzhen go to Hong Qiao, which is very close to the centre.
There are several comfortable high-speed overnight trains to Beijing from Shanghai, or many daily flights. Your hotel will book either, or you can get a travel agent outside the hotel to do it more cheaply. On air tickets always bargain down the price. Rail ticket prices are fixed, but the commission per ticket should be no more than Y20.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 10th, 2004, 03:37 PM
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Recently my husband and I went to China and toured Shanghai, Xian, and Beijing. We first consulted a local tour operator and on our own priced out hotels. It was much cheaper making the arrangements ourselves. After the trip I added up all of our expenses including items bought and we were still under the tour companies costs and we bought a lot and stayed at five star places. My advice is make your own arrangements. We did have to book inter China airfare through the tour company but we probably would not have had to do that had we waited until we arrived in China to book the airfare.
In Beijing, we stayed at the Grand Hyatt, great location. Recommend highly. The pool is fantastic and is a nice place to go after a day of touring. It would give your teens a fun place to stay. There is so much to do in Beijing. To get around in all of the cities we hired private cars that would take us to the places we wanted to tour and we saw what we wanted and could stay as long as we wanted and the cost was not bad at all. Because many days you set off on foot but the Great Wall you need transporation. But we could have book a local tour from the hotel or nearby agent. Bottom line it is a fraction for what you will pay a tour company. We had a great time. The teens will have a great time since there is so much to do you will be busy from sunrise to sunset.
In Shanghai we took the local bus to get around. Non airconditioning was 12 cents to ride one way. Riding the bus really gives you a flavor for the locals.
Have a great trip.
Rene
In Beijing, we stayed at the Grand Hyatt, great location. Recommend highly. The pool is fantastic and is a nice place to go after a day of touring. It would give your teens a fun place to stay. There is so much to do in Beijing. To get around in all of the cities we hired private cars that would take us to the places we wanted to tour and we saw what we wanted and could stay as long as we wanted and the cost was not bad at all. Because many days you set off on foot but the Great Wall you need transporation. But we could have book a local tour from the hotel or nearby agent. Bottom line it is a fraction for what you will pay a tour company. We had a great time. The teens will have a great time since there is so much to do you will be busy from sunrise to sunset.
In Shanghai we took the local bus to get around. Non airconditioning was 12 cents to ride one way. Riding the bus really gives you a flavor for the locals.
Have a great trip.
Rene
Jan 11th, 2004, 03:55 AM
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Thank you ,both, for responding so quickly. Peter, have you used any particular company in Hong Kong since I think that will be our first city?
I do feel aprehensive about traveling with just our roundtrip from H.K.
I guess because I won't have an amount per person. Do you have any idea as to how much I should expect to spend per person per day in just hotel and food?
Thank you
I do feel aprehensive about traveling with just our roundtrip from H.K.
I guess because I won't have an amount per person. Do you have any idea as to how much I should expect to spend per person per day in just hotel and food?
Thank you
Jan 11th, 2004, 10:46 AM
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Oddly enough I expect to be showing up in HK soon and within 36 hours to have sorted out a visa and an air ticket to Shanghai, and left again. It's that easy. (Having said that, I suppose something will go wrong. But it never has before.)
In haste:
Hong Kong and Shanghai and Beijing costs are all different; Hong Kong particularly so. How much a day? Well do you like a youth hostel style or suites in a five star or something in the middle? Do you want three rooms with twin beds, or two rooms, one with an extra bed added? A hearty filling bowl of noodles with beef can be found for Y5. A dinner in a top-of-the-range expat-haunted restaurant can cost Y800; more in HK (in HK dollars).
A discounted weekend to Shanghai return air ticket directly from HK is about HK$3000. Cross over to Shenzhen and fly from there and the price is about half, including the ferry from HK to Shenzhen airport. As another poster said, travel on a bus and you'll pay Y1 per head. With two taxis you can end up with a bill for Y50 altogether. A lot depends on how you want to travel.
Date of travel is also crucial. If you are travelling during Chinese New Year (around Jan 22 this year), during the first week of May, or the first week of October, prices double and availability is very limited indeed.
If you really can't face travel without booking ahead, at least consider simply book your transport and accommodation, but not a tour--you really don't need one, especially in HK. You'll still pay more than you need to for your hotels and tickets, but it will still be cheaper overall. You'll be able to pick and choose the sights you want to see, change your plans and dally as much as you like, and avoid obligatory shopping stops and other nonsense usually foisted on tours. Taxis in mainland China in particular are cheap and easy to use (with a little common sense) so you can just bundle yourself into two of those, wave the characters for your destination at the cabby, follow your route on the map with a finger (or look as if you're doing so) and you'll get around very easily. In all three cities there are metro systems which are not hard to navigate (especially English speaking Hong Kong's, which will probably be the fastest, cleanest, most efficient system you've ever ridden).
To get some idea of prices, look at the site for CTS in Hong Kong.
http://www.chinatravelone.com/
Usually I would not recommend this company at all, but it sells Beijing to Shanghai rail tickets (something you should consider over flying from HK--it's an overnight trip on a comfortable train and something different to try) at the normal prices, and you can book before leaving home and pick up the tickets from them in HK.
Air tickets will be MUCH cheaper if you just buy them over the counter from an agent while there (probably not from CTS however). This is also true for Shanghai, where you can wander into an agent, and just bargain down the price.
There are dozens of flights between Shanghai and Beijing, so much so that even at Chinese New Year there are usually discounts and plenty of seats available. A one-way ticket shouldn't cost more than US$125 and often much less. There are overnight trains on this route, too, even some with rooms with private bath (costs sometimes more than flying, however), and hundreds of agents willing to book them for you for a modest fee (a less modest one in some cases).
For hotels, if you want international standard (more or less) familiar brands, or the Asia luxury brands (Peninsula, Shangri-La, etc.) you're going to find the best available prices on their own Web sites or via the 1-800 number, but still in the US$100++ (or US$200++) range. Prices will usually improve closer to your time of travel. For Chinese 'five stars' and 'four stars', booking ahead via a Web site will mean you'll usually pay double. Walk into the lobby and you'll usually pay no more than half the posted rated if you bargain, and no nonsense with added service charges either. In the mainland Y300 per room would give you plenty of choice of reasonable comfort (and you can pay much less if you wish). China hotel specialist booking Web sites which claim to have massive discounts are merely fudging the figures, and whatever they offer you can beat yourself, so avoid them. That includes the CTS site mentioned above, but you can use them to get some idea of the absolute maximum you would have to pay.
In some of the luxury hotels there's no charge for having a child under 18 in your own room. In Chinese hotels in the mainland it's common to ask for an extra bed, which usually only costs an extra Y50 to Y100 (and that can be bargained down).
Sorry, in haste, but there are some lines of investigation...
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
In haste:
Hong Kong and Shanghai and Beijing costs are all different; Hong Kong particularly so. How much a day? Well do you like a youth hostel style or suites in a five star or something in the middle? Do you want three rooms with twin beds, or two rooms, one with an extra bed added? A hearty filling bowl of noodles with beef can be found for Y5. A dinner in a top-of-the-range expat-haunted restaurant can cost Y800; more in HK (in HK dollars).
A discounted weekend to Shanghai return air ticket directly from HK is about HK$3000. Cross over to Shenzhen and fly from there and the price is about half, including the ferry from HK to Shenzhen airport. As another poster said, travel on a bus and you'll pay Y1 per head. With two taxis you can end up with a bill for Y50 altogether. A lot depends on how you want to travel.
Date of travel is also crucial. If you are travelling during Chinese New Year (around Jan 22 this year), during the first week of May, or the first week of October, prices double and availability is very limited indeed.
If you really can't face travel without booking ahead, at least consider simply book your transport and accommodation, but not a tour--you really don't need one, especially in HK. You'll still pay more than you need to for your hotels and tickets, but it will still be cheaper overall. You'll be able to pick and choose the sights you want to see, change your plans and dally as much as you like, and avoid obligatory shopping stops and other nonsense usually foisted on tours. Taxis in mainland China in particular are cheap and easy to use (with a little common sense) so you can just bundle yourself into two of those, wave the characters for your destination at the cabby, follow your route on the map with a finger (or look as if you're doing so) and you'll get around very easily. In all three cities there are metro systems which are not hard to navigate (especially English speaking Hong Kong's, which will probably be the fastest, cleanest, most efficient system you've ever ridden).
To get some idea of prices, look at the site for CTS in Hong Kong.
http://www.chinatravelone.com/
Usually I would not recommend this company at all, but it sells Beijing to Shanghai rail tickets (something you should consider over flying from HK--it's an overnight trip on a comfortable train and something different to try) at the normal prices, and you can book before leaving home and pick up the tickets from them in HK.
Air tickets will be MUCH cheaper if you just buy them over the counter from an agent while there (probably not from CTS however). This is also true for Shanghai, where you can wander into an agent, and just bargain down the price.
There are dozens of flights between Shanghai and Beijing, so much so that even at Chinese New Year there are usually discounts and plenty of seats available. A one-way ticket shouldn't cost more than US$125 and often much less. There are overnight trains on this route, too, even some with rooms with private bath (costs sometimes more than flying, however), and hundreds of agents willing to book them for you for a modest fee (a less modest one in some cases).
For hotels, if you want international standard (more or less) familiar brands, or the Asia luxury brands (Peninsula, Shangri-La, etc.) you're going to find the best available prices on their own Web sites or via the 1-800 number, but still in the US$100++ (or US$200++) range. Prices will usually improve closer to your time of travel. For Chinese 'five stars' and 'four stars', booking ahead via a Web site will mean you'll usually pay double. Walk into the lobby and you'll usually pay no more than half the posted rated if you bargain, and no nonsense with added service charges either. In the mainland Y300 per room would give you plenty of choice of reasonable comfort (and you can pay much less if you wish). China hotel specialist booking Web sites which claim to have massive discounts are merely fudging the figures, and whatever they offer you can beat yourself, so avoid them. That includes the CTS site mentioned above, but you can use them to get some idea of the absolute maximum you would have to pay.
In some of the luxury hotels there's no charge for having a child under 18 in your own room. In Chinese hotels in the mainland it's common to ask for an extra bed, which usually only costs an extra Y50 to Y100 (and that can be bargained down).
Sorry, in haste, but there are some lines of investigation...
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 17th, 2004, 07:25 AM
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Thank you, Peter. As I read your message over and over, I have gathered more courage and I think I will book the roundtrip to HK and the hotel there and that's it.
I do feel a little nervous since we'll have the kids with us, but they are all teens so, they should be able to be good sports.
I was also reading about Xian, so I've been thinking about adding it.
What would you think is the best Itinerary city-wise? I mean, what city should we do after HK?
Thank you for all your expert advice.
I do feel a little nervous since we'll have the kids with us, but they are all teens so, they should be able to be good sports.
I was also reading about Xian, so I've been thinking about adding it.
What would you think is the best Itinerary city-wise? I mean, what city should we do after HK?
Thank you for all your expert advice.
Jan 17th, 2004, 11:48 AM
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If you're lucky, then your teens will enjoy the problem-solving aspects of getting around--reading the maps etc. If you're unlucky then all they'll notice is how filthy China is, suggest it doesn't measure up to home, and just complain. (There's many a descendent of Chinese parents resident in the West who dreads the trips back to visit family.) Being on a tour wouldn't make any difference in this case.
In practical terms, if you want to visit all four cities, then HK-overnight train-Shanghai-flight or overnight train-Beijing-flight or overnight train-Xi'an-flight to Shenzhen and ferry to HK would make sense.
Note that in mainland China discounts for young persons are based on height, not age, with 1.1 metres typically the barrier, and there are almost no student discounts. You'll probably be paying full entrance and transport costs. However, you may get discounted rail tickets from HK to Shanghai since discounts are aged-based in HK. Check www.kcrc.com, international inter-city services.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
In practical terms, if you want to visit all four cities, then HK-overnight train-Shanghai-flight or overnight train-Beijing-flight or overnight train-Xi'an-flight to Shenzhen and ferry to HK would make sense.
Note that in mainland China discounts for young persons are based on height, not age, with 1.1 metres typically the barrier, and there are almost no student discounts. You'll probably be paying full entrance and transport costs. However, you may get discounted rail tickets from HK to Shanghai since discounts are aged-based in HK. Check www.kcrc.com, international inter-city services.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 18th, 2004, 06:47 AM
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The only time we have used a tour in our 45 years of travel all over the world (haven't been everywhere yet) has been to China. Very glad we did. Yes, it is certainly possible to do it on your own. We went 5 days before the tour and stayed and explored Beijing on our own. No problem. But, with the tour we were able to easily go to a variety of cities, Yangtze cruise, etc. without any problems. China is accustomed to group travel.Seeing China beyond Shanghai and Beijing was important to us. We did not want to see just the big cities and we certainly wanted to go to Xian and Guilian. Hong Kong is easy,but a tour organizes it for you. If I had 4 teens with me, I certainly would want not hassle beyond what I will get from the kids. Smartours is really cheap. Check them out...Smartours.com.
Jan 21st, 2004, 05:27 AM
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First, congratulations on surviving (so far) with 4 teenagers! I agree that you can do this on your own, and I am sure you will have a wonderful trip. I have some basic comments.
1. If you can tell us when you are planning on going, and how many days you will have (excluding flying time), we can provide more specific comments about itineraries and/or festivals which may be occurring at that time of year. Also, the ages of your children probably would be helpful too.
2. There is already a TON of information on this site about Hong Kong and China. Do a search. Also remember that Fodors has done a lot of this for you. Click on "Destinations" above, and then scroll down to Hong Kong and other Chinese cities. A helpful description and basic itinerary suggestions will come up. You can also search hotels and restaurants. The Fodors guide book to Hong Kong is excellent. The Lonely Planet guides to the PRC and Hong Kong are also very good and give a ideas for a somewhat younger crowd than Fodors. You might get both. I find that the "top end" recommendations for restaurants and hotels in Lonely Planet are usually very good value for money. (I would steer clear of their bottom-end recs though!)
3. You will need a visa to enter China (don't need one for Hong Kong). Assuming you are US citizens, contact the Visa Section of the Chinese Embassy in the US:
2201 Wisconsin Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20007
(202/338-6688)
Internet: www.china-embassy.org
US citizen can obtain a visa as a "walk-in" applicant at the PRC embassy in Washington or a consulate in the US. Depending on where you live, you either have to go to DC or a particular consulate, check the website. The fee for a single-entry visa is $50 and it normally takes 4 days to issue the visa (which means you have to go back to collect the visa). In addition to the embassy in Washington, there are PRC consulates NY, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Houston.
The Chinese recently changed their procedures and no longer accept visa applicators by mail, so if you cannot go in person, you can appoint a travel agent or a third party to obtain the visa on your behalf, so you don't have to actually go to the embassy or consulate yourself, but you would have to mail the agent your passport and photos. If your travel agent cannot obtain a visa for you, there are many companies which will obtain visas for you for a few. Check the web. One I have seen advertised is traveldocscom. I don't know anything about their reputation.
Check the website for the PRC embassy in Washington for further details. You will need a "L" visa which is for tourists. The visa is generally good for 90 days, which means you must enter the PRC within 90 days of its issuance; in other words, don't get it too early. The visa is good for a stay of up to 30 days in the PRC.
You can also get a visa in 2-3 days in Hong Kong at the PRC Consulate. Most people who do this use a travel agent in Hong Kong. However, if you will only be there a few days, it is not worth the time and trouble to wait until you get to Hong Kong to do this, IMHO. This is especially true if you will be in Hong Kong on a weekend, as the PRC consulate in Hong Kong is only open from 9 am to 12:30 on Saturdays. If you are going to try to get the visa in Hong Kong, bring passport-size photos as you will need them for the application, and you won't waste time getting them taken there.
4. My experience in travelling with teenagers (not my own) in the PRC and Hong Kong is that they are quite blown away by the experience. In general, Hong Kong and other PRC cities are very safe, which means you can let your children explore a bit on their own; esp. in Hong Kong where English is so widespread and the public transportation system is so cheap and efficient. They might enjoy going to a local cyber café to check on e-mail every day or so. For a list of cyber cafes in most cities in the world, go to cybercafe.com. As mentioned above, for tips on restaurants, sights etc for a younger and more budget-conscious group than this board, get the Lonely Planet book and take a look at lonelyplanet.com. They also have a chatroom where you can read comments from travellers or post questions. The area of the site you need is called "Thorn Tree ". The site is somewhat similar to this Talk section of the Fodors site.
5. If you have reward points for Marriott, Hilton, Sheraton, etc., all these brands have hotels in the cities on your itinerary. While the hotels may not be exotic, using points can save you a lot on room costs, esp. as you have such a big group. Check the website for the major chains to see if you can use your points. If you are travelling in the summer (I assume) consider staying at hotels with pools, as this may go a long way towards keeping your children happy. Hong Kong is very hot and very humid in the summer, and Beijing and Shanghai are prone to weeks of intense heat in the summer months as well.
6. It is a very personal thing, but I am not a big fan of Shanghai. It is a very large modern city with some old bits left. If you have to choose between Xian and Shanghai, I would definitely choose Xian. The clay soldiers are something that you and your children will always remember long after you have forgotten the skyscrapers of Shanghai. Xian is the only Chinese city which still has it entire city wall intact. It is a very interesting city and worth 2-3 days.
1. If you can tell us when you are planning on going, and how many days you will have (excluding flying time), we can provide more specific comments about itineraries and/or festivals which may be occurring at that time of year. Also, the ages of your children probably would be helpful too.
2. There is already a TON of information on this site about Hong Kong and China. Do a search. Also remember that Fodors has done a lot of this for you. Click on "Destinations" above, and then scroll down to Hong Kong and other Chinese cities. A helpful description and basic itinerary suggestions will come up. You can also search hotels and restaurants. The Fodors guide book to Hong Kong is excellent. The Lonely Planet guides to the PRC and Hong Kong are also very good and give a ideas for a somewhat younger crowd than Fodors. You might get both. I find that the "top end" recommendations for restaurants and hotels in Lonely Planet are usually very good value for money. (I would steer clear of their bottom-end recs though!)
3. You will need a visa to enter China (don't need one for Hong Kong). Assuming you are US citizens, contact the Visa Section of the Chinese Embassy in the US:
2201 Wisconsin Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20007
(202/338-6688)
Internet: www.china-embassy.org
US citizen can obtain a visa as a "walk-in" applicant at the PRC embassy in Washington or a consulate in the US. Depending on where you live, you either have to go to DC or a particular consulate, check the website. The fee for a single-entry visa is $50 and it normally takes 4 days to issue the visa (which means you have to go back to collect the visa). In addition to the embassy in Washington, there are PRC consulates NY, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Houston.
The Chinese recently changed their procedures and no longer accept visa applicators by mail, so if you cannot go in person, you can appoint a travel agent or a third party to obtain the visa on your behalf, so you don't have to actually go to the embassy or consulate yourself, but you would have to mail the agent your passport and photos. If your travel agent cannot obtain a visa for you, there are many companies which will obtain visas for you for a few. Check the web. One I have seen advertised is traveldocscom. I don't know anything about their reputation.
Check the website for the PRC embassy in Washington for further details. You will need a "L" visa which is for tourists. The visa is generally good for 90 days, which means you must enter the PRC within 90 days of its issuance; in other words, don't get it too early. The visa is good for a stay of up to 30 days in the PRC.
You can also get a visa in 2-3 days in Hong Kong at the PRC Consulate. Most people who do this use a travel agent in Hong Kong. However, if you will only be there a few days, it is not worth the time and trouble to wait until you get to Hong Kong to do this, IMHO. This is especially true if you will be in Hong Kong on a weekend, as the PRC consulate in Hong Kong is only open from 9 am to 12:30 on Saturdays. If you are going to try to get the visa in Hong Kong, bring passport-size photos as you will need them for the application, and you won't waste time getting them taken there.
4. My experience in travelling with teenagers (not my own) in the PRC and Hong Kong is that they are quite blown away by the experience. In general, Hong Kong and other PRC cities are very safe, which means you can let your children explore a bit on their own; esp. in Hong Kong where English is so widespread and the public transportation system is so cheap and efficient. They might enjoy going to a local cyber café to check on e-mail every day or so. For a list of cyber cafes in most cities in the world, go to cybercafe.com. As mentioned above, for tips on restaurants, sights etc for a younger and more budget-conscious group than this board, get the Lonely Planet book and take a look at lonelyplanet.com. They also have a chatroom where you can read comments from travellers or post questions. The area of the site you need is called "Thorn Tree ". The site is somewhat similar to this Talk section of the Fodors site.
5. If you have reward points for Marriott, Hilton, Sheraton, etc., all these brands have hotels in the cities on your itinerary. While the hotels may not be exotic, using points can save you a lot on room costs, esp. as you have such a big group. Check the website for the major chains to see if you can use your points. If you are travelling in the summer (I assume) consider staying at hotels with pools, as this may go a long way towards keeping your children happy. Hong Kong is very hot and very humid in the summer, and Beijing and Shanghai are prone to weeks of intense heat in the summer months as well.
6. It is a very personal thing, but I am not a big fan of Shanghai. It is a very large modern city with some old bits left. If you have to choose between Xian and Shanghai, I would definitely choose Xian. The clay soldiers are something that you and your children will always remember long after you have forgotten the skyscrapers of Shanghai. Xian is the only Chinese city which still has it entire city wall intact. It is a very interesting city and worth 2-3 days.
Jan 21st, 2004, 06:36 AM
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Just one further word on hotels. You will need to do some homework and a lot of comparing. This is easy with the web and you can e-mail most hotels. (I would set up a separate Hotmail address to avoid getting lots of unwanted e-mails; go to msn.com; it is free and easy to set up an account.)
A good website for hotels in Asia is asia-hotels.com. You can search by city and then sort by price. I have never booked with them, I actually use them just to compare rates with a hotel's own website or other commercial websites, tips from friend,s or this site, then I contact the hotel itself and use the prices I have found as a starting point for price discussions. This usually works and I feel better having a booking directly with the hotel. Also post questions on this board with regard to reviews of particular hotels and prices others have paid.
Remember that someone will always be able to get a better deal (same is true with airfare and husbands), so at some point you just have to make a choice. I am not a proponent of walking into a hotel with no reservation and negotiating, as the last thing I want to do on vacation is trudge around with all my luggage from hotel to hotel bargaining, but if that is your preference, then knock yourself out, because the Chinese LOVE to bargain and always want a discount. (I can tell you funny stories about increasing bills for Chinese clients knowing that they were going to ask for a discount, which I would give, and so get the fee I originally intended to bill anyway?.)
In my experience, you will not find "double doubles" (i.e., two double beds in each room) in Asian hotels. You will find two twins or one double/queen bed. You can sometimes add an extra bed, but bear in mind that hotel rooms can be on the small side and may not accommodate a third bed. You should budget based on having to get 3 rooms and go for fewer rooms if you can depending upon the hotel.
I don't know what your budget is, but if you are looking for good budget accommodations in Hong Kong (an expensive city for hotels) my perennial budget favourites are:
1. YMCA Salisbury Road, 41 Salisbury Road Tsim Sha Tsui. This is a great place, fantastic location, it gets good reviews on this site. It really is a nice 4* hotel disguised as a YMCA. They are very popular and often fully booked, so if you are interested, make a reservation soon (you can always cancel). They have standard rooms from $90 a night, and have family suites and suites from US$129. I believe a roll away could easily be added in a suite, the standard rooms tend to be small. Website for YMCA hotels in Asia is /www.ymca-hotels.com/
2. Bishop Lei International House. The hotel is in midlevels which makes it very convenient. The rooms are small but very nice, and the location is good, in a residential neighborhood near the top of the escalator and on a bus route. It is just above the zoo in the botanical gardens and you can hear the orang utans in the morning, quite unusual in the middle of the city. . . Many of the rooms have great views over the city and the harbor. They have a pool and restaurant, and there are other restaurants in the neighborhood. Their website is bishopleihtl.com.hk Their phone and fax are phone : 852-2868-0828 fax: 852-2525-1551. They have standard rooms from US$73 and suites from $96. The suites have a separate living room and a roll-away could easily be added.
3. YMCA Garden View International House. 1 Macdonnell Road. Very-well located in midlevels on Hong Kong Island. They are located near Bowen Road, an excellent flat pedestrian-only road in Hong Kong good for walking and jogging, with wonderful views. This hotel would be my second choice after the Salisbury Road Y as the Salisbury Road Y has more facilities, however it is still a good choice. I believe they have a pool which is also a plus. They have standard double rooms starting at $85.
There is a third Y, the International House which was just rebuilt and I have not been inside since it re-opened. It is in Kowloon (as is the Salisbury Road Y) but a bit further back from the water. As it is new, the facilities should be good. Worth a look. They have standard doubles starting at US$91. As it is the same price as the Salisbury Road Y, I am guessing the facilities are very good and they can charge more even though their location is secondary, IMO
There is a YMCA in Shanghai. I don't know anything about it, but it would certainly be worth a look. Maybe post a question here or on the Lonelyplanet website.
I don't know any budgt accommodations in Xian, but look at the "Hotel" guide above, check Lonely Planet or post a question on this site. I can recommend more mid-range or upper-range hotels if you are interested.
A good website for hotels in Asia is asia-hotels.com. You can search by city and then sort by price. I have never booked with them, I actually use them just to compare rates with a hotel's own website or other commercial websites, tips from friend,s or this site, then I contact the hotel itself and use the prices I have found as a starting point for price discussions. This usually works and I feel better having a booking directly with the hotel. Also post questions on this board with regard to reviews of particular hotels and prices others have paid.
Remember that someone will always be able to get a better deal (same is true with airfare and husbands), so at some point you just have to make a choice. I am not a proponent of walking into a hotel with no reservation and negotiating, as the last thing I want to do on vacation is trudge around with all my luggage from hotel to hotel bargaining, but if that is your preference, then knock yourself out, because the Chinese LOVE to bargain and always want a discount. (I can tell you funny stories about increasing bills for Chinese clients knowing that they were going to ask for a discount, which I would give, and so get the fee I originally intended to bill anyway?.)
In my experience, you will not find "double doubles" (i.e., two double beds in each room) in Asian hotels. You will find two twins or one double/queen bed. You can sometimes add an extra bed, but bear in mind that hotel rooms can be on the small side and may not accommodate a third bed. You should budget based on having to get 3 rooms and go for fewer rooms if you can depending upon the hotel.
I don't know what your budget is, but if you are looking for good budget accommodations in Hong Kong (an expensive city for hotels) my perennial budget favourites are:
1. YMCA Salisbury Road, 41 Salisbury Road Tsim Sha Tsui. This is a great place, fantastic location, it gets good reviews on this site. It really is a nice 4* hotel disguised as a YMCA. They are very popular and often fully booked, so if you are interested, make a reservation soon (you can always cancel). They have standard rooms from $90 a night, and have family suites and suites from US$129. I believe a roll away could easily be added in a suite, the standard rooms tend to be small. Website for YMCA hotels in Asia is /www.ymca-hotels.com/
2. Bishop Lei International House. The hotel is in midlevels which makes it very convenient. The rooms are small but very nice, and the location is good, in a residential neighborhood near the top of the escalator and on a bus route. It is just above the zoo in the botanical gardens and you can hear the orang utans in the morning, quite unusual in the middle of the city. . . Many of the rooms have great views over the city and the harbor. They have a pool and restaurant, and there are other restaurants in the neighborhood. Their website is bishopleihtl.com.hk Their phone and fax are phone : 852-2868-0828 fax: 852-2525-1551. They have standard rooms from US$73 and suites from $96. The suites have a separate living room and a roll-away could easily be added.
3. YMCA Garden View International House. 1 Macdonnell Road. Very-well located in midlevels on Hong Kong Island. They are located near Bowen Road, an excellent flat pedestrian-only road in Hong Kong good for walking and jogging, with wonderful views. This hotel would be my second choice after the Salisbury Road Y as the Salisbury Road Y has more facilities, however it is still a good choice. I believe they have a pool which is also a plus. They have standard double rooms starting at $85.
There is a third Y, the International House which was just rebuilt and I have not been inside since it re-opened. It is in Kowloon (as is the Salisbury Road Y) but a bit further back from the water. As it is new, the facilities should be good. Worth a look. They have standard doubles starting at US$91. As it is the same price as the Salisbury Road Y, I am guessing the facilities are very good and they can charge more even though their location is secondary, IMO
There is a YMCA in Shanghai. I don't know anything about it, but it would certainly be worth a look. Maybe post a question here or on the Lonelyplanet website.
I don't know any budgt accommodations in Xian, but look at the "Hotel" guide above, check Lonely Planet or post a question on this site. I can recommend more mid-range or upper-range hotels if you are interested.
Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:02 AM
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I'd just like to object again to the constant efforts to treat 'budget travellers' as a separate group and ghettoize them elsewhere. There are plenty of people on this board who are well acquainted with accommodation and travel at all levels of cost, as has been proved many times in the past. Redirecting queries to another board short-changes us all.
It should also be said that the LP board is full of people replying merely for the sake of having a laugh, and of people who, although actually resident in China, are asking questions about how to get train tickets, for instance. On average there are far more detailed and helpful replies (at all levels of budget) available here, and while there are some informed replies on the LP board, it also contains some of the most dimwitted and misleading exchanges on the entire Internet, often straying well away from travel since the board lacks decent moderation.
While we're at it, as someone who typically spends several months in China each year, I think of all the guides, Lonely Planet should be regarded as the least authoritative on the merits of upmarket establishments of all kinds, and little more reliable on budget ones.
Descriptions are far too concise to be meaningful, and its often clear that the authors have never stayed or eaten in the places in question (not that that is a problem unique to this series). The updating between issues is very patchy, and much of the information is tired and old. Some of the authors speak no Chinese, and so have little chance of finding out exactly what's going on. The historical, cultural, and practical errors are legion. There are many better guides, and for upmarket accommodation certainly almost any other guide is better.
If a budget is mentioned, I for one would be happy to make detailed recommendations of hotels, right down to addresses and phone numbers. Budget travellers are very welcome here!
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
It should also be said that the LP board is full of people replying merely for the sake of having a laugh, and of people who, although actually resident in China, are asking questions about how to get train tickets, for instance. On average there are far more detailed and helpful replies (at all levels of budget) available here, and while there are some informed replies on the LP board, it also contains some of the most dimwitted and misleading exchanges on the entire Internet, often straying well away from travel since the board lacks decent moderation.
While we're at it, as someone who typically spends several months in China each year, I think of all the guides, Lonely Planet should be regarded as the least authoritative on the merits of upmarket establishments of all kinds, and little more reliable on budget ones.
Descriptions are far too concise to be meaningful, and its often clear that the authors have never stayed or eaten in the places in question (not that that is a problem unique to this series). The updating between issues is very patchy, and much of the information is tired and old. Some of the authors speak no Chinese, and so have little chance of finding out exactly what's going on. The historical, cultural, and practical errors are legion. There are many better guides, and for upmarket accommodation certainly almost any other guide is better.
If a budget is mentioned, I for one would be happy to make detailed recommendations of hotels, right down to addresses and phone numbers. Budget travellers are very welcome here!
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 23rd, 2004, 07:37 AM
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Peter, your opinion might be more persuasive to other if you hadn't ended your post, as you do every post, BY POSTING THE LINK TO YOUR OWN TRAVEL WEBSITE. Not only is this against the Fodors' rules, it would seem to run counter to your personal philosophy espoused above and which you are trying so hard to convince others to share.
This site is an open forum for ideas and opinions. Myself and the thousands of others who have used Lonely Planet books to travel in China and elsewhere disagree with your opinion. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I don't think it warrants the vitriolic nature of your comments. I suspect that the reason for your diatribe against Lonely Planet is that they have rejected you as a contributor and they sell more books than you do. As for their chat room, there are trolls everyone, including this site, and no one should take as Gospel any advice rendered in a chat room.
With regard to making references to other travel websites, again, we disagree. The web is such a source of information that I believe that the more we can share, the more enriched are travel experiences will be. Many posters here direct readers to other sites. Read some postings and you will see references not only to Lonely Planet, but to slowtravel.com, cruisecritic.com, Rick and Steves, biddingfortravel.com and numerous other alternative sites.
If you wish to persuade others to be of your same opinion, it would help if your actions were not so directly contradictory to that opinion. Just a little drafting tip from me to you which may help you sell more books.
This site is an open forum for ideas and opinions. Myself and the thousands of others who have used Lonely Planet books to travel in China and elsewhere disagree with your opinion. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I don't think it warrants the vitriolic nature of your comments. I suspect that the reason for your diatribe against Lonely Planet is that they have rejected you as a contributor and they sell more books than you do. As for their chat room, there are trolls everyone, including this site, and no one should take as Gospel any advice rendered in a chat room.
With regard to making references to other travel websites, again, we disagree. The web is such a source of information that I believe that the more we can share, the more enriched are travel experiences will be. Many posters here direct readers to other sites. Read some postings and you will see references not only to Lonely Planet, but to slowtravel.com, cruisecritic.com, Rick and Steves, biddingfortravel.com and numerous other alternative sites.
If you wish to persuade others to be of your same opinion, it would help if your actions were not so directly contradictory to that opinion. Just a little drafting tip from me to you which may help you sell more books.
Jan 23rd, 2004, 11:12 AM
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Hi, flafl!
You're getting a lot of good and in-depth advice here!
As a bilingual (English - Chinese) speaker, here's my take on your situation.
1) I would get as much of the travel arrangements: hotels, trains, etc. reserved from here in the States (assuming that you are in the States). I CANNOT see you travelling to China with 4 teens and NO reservations - that's a bit insane, IMHO.
Would you go to Mars without knowing the language and have no reservations? You wouldn't be able to read Martian, you wouldn't be able to speak Martian and the Martians mostly can't speak English, you wouldn't be able to get around Mars because you can't read the signs nor speak with the natives - well, you get the idea. How much fun would you have? How much frustration? (I'm assuming you don't know Chinese. If my assumptions are incorrect, please forgive the error!)
2) Nevertheless, both Peter and Cicerone have great advice to offer you, despite their sometimes seemingly conflicting nature. Peter wants you to save money, so does Cicerone. They just don't agree on some of the sources of that savings.
I don't use guidebooks for China, so I can't comment on the quality of the various China guides, but I have used Lonely Planet for other parts of the world and there is one thing about Lonely Planet that makes them stand out above all other guidebooks and that's their maps. You DO need other bigger maps, but the LP maps are a wonderful bird's eye view of important areas. As Cicerone has said, their higher to mid-higher end accommodation recommendations are OK, the rest - ummmm.
3) Hong Kong is easy. It is very Westernized and just about everyone speaks English. You and your teens can happily enjoy HK without guides. In fact, I would strongly suggest not having a guide in HK.
4) Interior China is a different matter. The more into the interior you go, the closer you should think of the Mars analogy. What your and your teens' comfort zone is must be up to you all to decide. The more you freelance, the more communications problems you will encounter and, therefore, the more time you will spend/waste trying to make fundamental arrangements like where to sleep, how to travel - this is time that you take away from your touring and discovering and adventuring.
5) It's certainly true that things become cheaper once you are in China. But the price paid is time "lost" making arrangements while on a time-limited journey. As an alternative, if you land in HK first, you could try to make arrangements through a HK agency. You will not save gobs and gobs but you will save some gobs. I only know of a big travel agent in HK, Swire & Co, which is very reputable and where you can save some gobs. Maybe someone else has some better suggestions?
6) As another alternative: I don't know where you live, but the San Francisco Chronicle Sunday paper has a lot of tours listed. I've known of a number of people, both Asian-Americans and others, who have taken these tours, have been happy with the arrangements, and have saved quite a bit with an appropriate tour operator. One of the reasons why their pricing may not be too bad is the airfare. When you factor in doing airfare on your own (and paying a lot more than group rates!), you probably wouldn't be saving that much more over tour group rates when on your own. Any additional cost is the price for not having to deal with all the little details in a different language.
7) If you do want to try and do things on your own, there is yet one more thing that I'd like to mention. Asians like to bargain. I personally don't see anything wrong with you writing to a hotel in China and telling them the dates when you need accommodations, how many rooms, type of beds, etc. and tell them that you are willing to pay X price (all inclusive, taxes, etc. included). The least that can happen is that they don't respond.
In summary: you can either do a lot of work yourself before you go and get your travel arrangements made, or
you can go through a travel agent either in HK or in the States (probably San Francisco).
I strongly advise against freelancing when you have 4 teens in tow.
Hope this helps!
You're getting a lot of good and in-depth advice here!
As a bilingual (English - Chinese) speaker, here's my take on your situation.
1) I would get as much of the travel arrangements: hotels, trains, etc. reserved from here in the States (assuming that you are in the States). I CANNOT see you travelling to China with 4 teens and NO reservations - that's a bit insane, IMHO.
Would you go to Mars without knowing the language and have no reservations? You wouldn't be able to read Martian, you wouldn't be able to speak Martian and the Martians mostly can't speak English, you wouldn't be able to get around Mars because you can't read the signs nor speak with the natives - well, you get the idea. How much fun would you have? How much frustration? (I'm assuming you don't know Chinese. If my assumptions are incorrect, please forgive the error!)
2) Nevertheless, both Peter and Cicerone have great advice to offer you, despite their sometimes seemingly conflicting nature. Peter wants you to save money, so does Cicerone. They just don't agree on some of the sources of that savings.
I don't use guidebooks for China, so I can't comment on the quality of the various China guides, but I have used Lonely Planet for other parts of the world and there is one thing about Lonely Planet that makes them stand out above all other guidebooks and that's their maps. You DO need other bigger maps, but the LP maps are a wonderful bird's eye view of important areas. As Cicerone has said, their higher to mid-higher end accommodation recommendations are OK, the rest - ummmm.
3) Hong Kong is easy. It is very Westernized and just about everyone speaks English. You and your teens can happily enjoy HK without guides. In fact, I would strongly suggest not having a guide in HK.
4) Interior China is a different matter. The more into the interior you go, the closer you should think of the Mars analogy. What your and your teens' comfort zone is must be up to you all to decide. The more you freelance, the more communications problems you will encounter and, therefore, the more time you will spend/waste trying to make fundamental arrangements like where to sleep, how to travel - this is time that you take away from your touring and discovering and adventuring.
5) It's certainly true that things become cheaper once you are in China. But the price paid is time "lost" making arrangements while on a time-limited journey. As an alternative, if you land in HK first, you could try to make arrangements through a HK agency. You will not save gobs and gobs but you will save some gobs. I only know of a big travel agent in HK, Swire & Co, which is very reputable and where you can save some gobs. Maybe someone else has some better suggestions?
6) As another alternative: I don't know where you live, but the San Francisco Chronicle Sunday paper has a lot of tours listed. I've known of a number of people, both Asian-Americans and others, who have taken these tours, have been happy with the arrangements, and have saved quite a bit with an appropriate tour operator. One of the reasons why their pricing may not be too bad is the airfare. When you factor in doing airfare on your own (and paying a lot more than group rates!), you probably wouldn't be saving that much more over tour group rates when on your own. Any additional cost is the price for not having to deal with all the little details in a different language.
7) If you do want to try and do things on your own, there is yet one more thing that I'd like to mention. Asians like to bargain. I personally don't see anything wrong with you writing to a hotel in China and telling them the dates when you need accommodations, how many rooms, type of beds, etc. and tell them that you are willing to pay X price (all inclusive, taxes, etc. included). The least that can happen is that they don't respond.
In summary: you can either do a lot of work yourself before you go and get your travel arrangements made, or
you can go through a travel agent either in HK or in the States (probably San Francisco).
I strongly advise against freelancing when you have 4 teens in tow.
Hope this helps!
Jan 23rd, 2004, 05:16 PM
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The analogy with Mars isn't really helpful (I would say it isn't accurate but then it isn't supposed to be).
If we are not supposed to travel independently in countries where we do not have a common language with the natives, then a rather large portion of the globe is closed to us. Since millions of this kind of journey are made each year, we must presume that it is possible, and many find it highly enjoyable to travel in this way, simply booking things as they go along. The cities in question (Shanghai, Beijing, Xi'an) are hardly China's last frontier. Those who can read the signs in Chinese tend not to notice that at the terminals there are also signs in English, that most hotels have at least one or two English-speaking staff, that street names are in Roman script as well as Chinese, that bilingual maps are available, and that there are travel agents who won't be at all held back from making a sale by the lack of a common language, although often they have enough English to cope.
In short, no one who usually travels independently should write off independent travel in China. Tens of thousands of people with not a word of Mandarin do it each year, (and many of them are teens).
Independent travel is a matter of attitude. For some it's just too forbidding to do anywhere. For others it's part of the fun, and that's as true of China as anywhere else. Only the individual traveller can decide.
As for the teens, the admission partway through (4) that "What your and your teens' comfort zone is must be up to you all to decide" makes the conclusion at the close that independent travel with four teens is to be ruled out a little unexpected. We don't know anything about these teens (age, cultural background, previous travel experience, self-confidence, etc.) so surely it isn't possible to make such a sweeping recommendation. There are teens I wouldn't take anywhere at all. But if I felt I could take them on independent travel to any other foreign country, I don't know why I would exclude China, which is much safer in many ways than most others (some have previously said on this board, safer than the U.S.). A team of teens (13 yrs?, 18 yrs?) trying to puzzle things out might well be a lot of fun. We just don't know the teens.
But the original query was "What would be the least expensive way to go?" Not the most convenient (undoubtedly a tour), but the least expensive. Hong Kongers, canny though they are, regularly pay nearly as much as other overseas bookers for their mainland travel services, and travel companies in Hong Kong looking to service expats and other foreigners regularly take them for a ride (there's a discussion about one company in particular, which charges 79% more for rail tickets, under another thread). There may be some saving over booking from the U.S., but unless very cautious, not necessarily very much. The transport from Hong Kong to Shanghai is very easily booked as previous described. Little time is wasted on making further onward arrangements if a ticket agent (just about any hotel lobby, or cheaper away from the hotel) is used.
The problem with the idea under (7) is that in each case the worst will happen--there will be no response. Even foreign-run joint-ventures in China are poor at responding to fax messages, email, and letters. Chinese hotels almost universally do not bother, and even when a confirmed booking is held, do not necessarily hold the room. If someone shows up earlier, holding cash, they'll take the cash. It happens all the time.
Furthermore, with Chinese hotels, an appearance at the counter to bargain will lower the price dramatically. Advance booking through their web site, where possible, will mean rack rate, and prices over the telephone (a possible middle way once in China) are never as low as over the counter. The Chinese themselves almost never book in advance, and since in most cases the hotels are unable to extract a no-show fee from credit cards, the no-show rate is very high indeed. The flip side is that bookings are not honoured when cash is available.
For most of the year in almost all of China, the supply of hotel rooms at all levels is greatly in excess of demand. Anyone arriving in most cities, most of the time, can simply head for any hotel they've heard of which sounds appealing, and there will almost certainly be rooms, whose rates can be bargained down. Any Chinese hotel will throw in an extra bed for a small fee, so two rooms will suffice. All serious joint-venture hotels offer this service, too, and if this level of travel is chosen then the best published rates can be found on those hotel's web sites, and are bookable from abroad. If the idea of just heading off to a hotel is disliked, then the airports all have booking agencies claiming wonderful discounts, which means that you can beat those prices in person yourself. The canny bargainer gets a price there, knows therefore than there are rooms available, and goes off and gets them cheaper for himself. But those preferring ease can haggle a little for a better price, and then accept the surcharge. Often, in these cases, a shuttle bus is provided, and if not the hotel agent (happy with his big commission) will come and personally tell the taxi which hotel, or hand over a card with its characters on it. Is this hair-raising, tiresome, or fun? Only the individual can say, and there are many who just prefer pre-planned guaranteed itineraries. But those of us who travel independently in China all the time, and see many others doing it with not a 'Ni hao' between them, can testify that it certainly can be done, teens and all.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
If we are not supposed to travel independently in countries where we do not have a common language with the natives, then a rather large portion of the globe is closed to us. Since millions of this kind of journey are made each year, we must presume that it is possible, and many find it highly enjoyable to travel in this way, simply booking things as they go along. The cities in question (Shanghai, Beijing, Xi'an) are hardly China's last frontier. Those who can read the signs in Chinese tend not to notice that at the terminals there are also signs in English, that most hotels have at least one or two English-speaking staff, that street names are in Roman script as well as Chinese, that bilingual maps are available, and that there are travel agents who won't be at all held back from making a sale by the lack of a common language, although often they have enough English to cope.
In short, no one who usually travels independently should write off independent travel in China. Tens of thousands of people with not a word of Mandarin do it each year, (and many of them are teens).
Independent travel is a matter of attitude. For some it's just too forbidding to do anywhere. For others it's part of the fun, and that's as true of China as anywhere else. Only the individual traveller can decide.
As for the teens, the admission partway through (4) that "What your and your teens' comfort zone is must be up to you all to decide" makes the conclusion at the close that independent travel with four teens is to be ruled out a little unexpected. We don't know anything about these teens (age, cultural background, previous travel experience, self-confidence, etc.) so surely it isn't possible to make such a sweeping recommendation. There are teens I wouldn't take anywhere at all. But if I felt I could take them on independent travel to any other foreign country, I don't know why I would exclude China, which is much safer in many ways than most others (some have previously said on this board, safer than the U.S.). A team of teens (13 yrs?, 18 yrs?) trying to puzzle things out might well be a lot of fun. We just don't know the teens.
But the original query was "What would be the least expensive way to go?" Not the most convenient (undoubtedly a tour), but the least expensive. Hong Kongers, canny though they are, regularly pay nearly as much as other overseas bookers for their mainland travel services, and travel companies in Hong Kong looking to service expats and other foreigners regularly take them for a ride (there's a discussion about one company in particular, which charges 79% more for rail tickets, under another thread). There may be some saving over booking from the U.S., but unless very cautious, not necessarily very much. The transport from Hong Kong to Shanghai is very easily booked as previous described. Little time is wasted on making further onward arrangements if a ticket agent (just about any hotel lobby, or cheaper away from the hotel) is used.
The problem with the idea under (7) is that in each case the worst will happen--there will be no response. Even foreign-run joint-ventures in China are poor at responding to fax messages, email, and letters. Chinese hotels almost universally do not bother, and even when a confirmed booking is held, do not necessarily hold the room. If someone shows up earlier, holding cash, they'll take the cash. It happens all the time.
Furthermore, with Chinese hotels, an appearance at the counter to bargain will lower the price dramatically. Advance booking through their web site, where possible, will mean rack rate, and prices over the telephone (a possible middle way once in China) are never as low as over the counter. The Chinese themselves almost never book in advance, and since in most cases the hotels are unable to extract a no-show fee from credit cards, the no-show rate is very high indeed. The flip side is that bookings are not honoured when cash is available.
For most of the year in almost all of China, the supply of hotel rooms at all levels is greatly in excess of demand. Anyone arriving in most cities, most of the time, can simply head for any hotel they've heard of which sounds appealing, and there will almost certainly be rooms, whose rates can be bargained down. Any Chinese hotel will throw in an extra bed for a small fee, so two rooms will suffice. All serious joint-venture hotels offer this service, too, and if this level of travel is chosen then the best published rates can be found on those hotel's web sites, and are bookable from abroad. If the idea of just heading off to a hotel is disliked, then the airports all have booking agencies claiming wonderful discounts, which means that you can beat those prices in person yourself. The canny bargainer gets a price there, knows therefore than there are rooms available, and goes off and gets them cheaper for himself. But those preferring ease can haggle a little for a better price, and then accept the surcharge. Often, in these cases, a shuttle bus is provided, and if not the hotel agent (happy with his big commission) will come and personally tell the taxi which hotel, or hand over a card with its characters on it. Is this hair-raising, tiresome, or fun? Only the individual can say, and there are many who just prefer pre-planned guaranteed itineraries. But those of us who travel independently in China all the time, and see many others doing it with not a 'Ni hao' between them, can testify that it certainly can be done, teens and all.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 24th, 2004, 12:26 AM
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Peter, it would help if you would add in your comments that they are your opinion, as otherwise people might find them annoying or insulting and newcomers here might be confused that somehow only your advice is the correct one. I know sensitivity is not your strong suit, but lets work on it this year, OK?
I disagree with your comment that hotels will not honor reservations and that it happens all the time. It is true that guests, even those with confirmed reservations are "walked" from full hotels, this does happen and it happens all over the world. It has nothing to do with China. Hotels in many countries are poor at responding to fax and e-mail enquiries for reservations; again it has nothing to do with China. It also does not mean that the guest does not have a confirmed reservation and will have any problem when they show up. To imply that these two phenomenon are unique to China and therefore it is better to go without ANY reservation at all is misleading and really quite frankly, IMO, a stupid thing to say.
I would also recommend that you stop using the term "joint venture" to describe every hotel in China operated by a non-PRC operator or chain. A "joint venture" hotel is one in which the foreign party has made an equity investment and is thus part owner of the hotel. Many, many hotels in China are simply operated by a non-PRC chain pursuant to a management agreement. For example, over 90% of the "Marriott" and "Courtyard by Marriott" brand hotels in China are simply managed by Marriott, they are not joint ventures. I know this because I worked on many of those projects. The chain takes a fee for the management, it does not have any ownership interest in the hotel, and is not, by the terms of Chinese joint-venture law, a joint-venture.
It is your continued misuse of terms which you think are sound technical enough to lend authority to your comments that compels me again and again to question the pronouncements in your post. (I can no longer call it advice, because you never couch it in those terms.) Another is your hilarious use of "yield management" but that is really a subject for a long reply with charts and graphs and is beyond the scope of Fodors.
I disagree with your comment that hotels will not honor reservations and that it happens all the time. It is true that guests, even those with confirmed reservations are "walked" from full hotels, this does happen and it happens all over the world. It has nothing to do with China. Hotels in many countries are poor at responding to fax and e-mail enquiries for reservations; again it has nothing to do with China. It also does not mean that the guest does not have a confirmed reservation and will have any problem when they show up. To imply that these two phenomenon are unique to China and therefore it is better to go without ANY reservation at all is misleading and really quite frankly, IMO, a stupid thing to say.
I would also recommend that you stop using the term "joint venture" to describe every hotel in China operated by a non-PRC operator or chain. A "joint venture" hotel is one in which the foreign party has made an equity investment and is thus part owner of the hotel. Many, many hotels in China are simply operated by a non-PRC chain pursuant to a management agreement. For example, over 90% of the "Marriott" and "Courtyard by Marriott" brand hotels in China are simply managed by Marriott, they are not joint ventures. I know this because I worked on many of those projects. The chain takes a fee for the management, it does not have any ownership interest in the hotel, and is not, by the terms of Chinese joint-venture law, a joint-venture.
It is your continued misuse of terms which you think are sound technical enough to lend authority to your comments that compels me again and again to question the pronouncements in your post. (I can no longer call it advice, because you never couch it in those terms.) Another is your hilarious use of "yield management" but that is really a subject for a long reply with charts and graphs and is beyond the scope of Fodors.
Jan 24th, 2004, 07:46 AM
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Ahem!! Let me, erh, add a few comments, in support of nothing and in defense of nothing.
Peter, I respect your vast knowledge of Asia and of China, very much so. However, I tend to disagree with some of your comments when you paint with too broad a brush. Like Cicerone, I can detect those broad strokes and I, personally, tend to disregard them and go for the good advice that you offer. The problem is that a lot of readers of this forum come to this forum because they do not have a more in-depth knowledge and could possibly be misled.
Your point that people can travel independently in China is very well taken. Certainly lots of people do it and I, too, would encourage others to try it. However, my point is that one should not try it with 4 teens in tow.
I HAVE travelled with teenagers and I would NOT arrive in a strange city with several teenagers and with only vague ideas of the next step in mode of transportation or of lodgings. That's too much of a free fall for me and unnecessary since there was time before arrival to make some sort of reservations. I would not do this, not in Istanbul nor in Bangkok nor in Shanghai nor in New York, and, least of all, in London or Paris. Alone or with another adult travelling companion, then it's different.
The other problem is with time. It already costs so much to travel to China for a family of 5 or 6 people. The time there should not be spent in haggling over rooms or, worse, trying to find out where the hotel is on an unfamiliar map. What is the point of saving $100/night on a room if one is going to waste the entire family's time, say for half a day, trying to find a room with that kind of savings? In other words, is that really a savings? What was the point of travelling to China: to haggle over rooms or to tour the country?
BTW, to digress a bit, I disagree with Rick Steves' advice on travel to Europe where he says to just get off the train, wander around a bit, INSPECT the rooms before making a selection for the night. And I'm supposed to do this for every town/city I visit in Europe??? (What B...S...!) It's really not necessary, because with a little bit of pre-travel planning, I can get a very clean and inexpensive place set up ahead of time. Then, all my time during travel can be devoted to art, culture, food, architecture, love... of that country.
If you want to save money in China, you can find lots of inexpensive lodging in China just by doing a web search. There are plenty of places listed as "China hostels". I know of someone who went to China in November and stayed in "hostels" throughout South China. The pictures of the one in HK were especially appealing. She made her reservations at those hostels before leaving the States, even though she was travelling alone.
I have a lot more thoughts, but never mind those, just one final comment:
"The analogy with Mars really isn't helpful..." You're right, of course. I wrote that on the assumption that flafl doesn't speak Martian. Of course, he/she may be fluent in Martian and the analogy would therefore be most inappropriate!
I hope you don't mind my pointing out differences in thought. In 2004 China may well be in my travel plans and I look forward to receiving great advice from you, Peter, and from others as well!
Have a great day, Peter! And you too Cicerone! And happy travels to you, flafl!
Peter, I respect your vast knowledge of Asia and of China, very much so. However, I tend to disagree with some of your comments when you paint with too broad a brush. Like Cicerone, I can detect those broad strokes and I, personally, tend to disregard them and go for the good advice that you offer. The problem is that a lot of readers of this forum come to this forum because they do not have a more in-depth knowledge and could possibly be misled.
Your point that people can travel independently in China is very well taken. Certainly lots of people do it and I, too, would encourage others to try it. However, my point is that one should not try it with 4 teens in tow.
I HAVE travelled with teenagers and I would NOT arrive in a strange city with several teenagers and with only vague ideas of the next step in mode of transportation or of lodgings. That's too much of a free fall for me and unnecessary since there was time before arrival to make some sort of reservations. I would not do this, not in Istanbul nor in Bangkok nor in Shanghai nor in New York, and, least of all, in London or Paris. Alone or with another adult travelling companion, then it's different.
The other problem is with time. It already costs so much to travel to China for a family of 5 or 6 people. The time there should not be spent in haggling over rooms or, worse, trying to find out where the hotel is on an unfamiliar map. What is the point of saving $100/night on a room if one is going to waste the entire family's time, say for half a day, trying to find a room with that kind of savings? In other words, is that really a savings? What was the point of travelling to China: to haggle over rooms or to tour the country?
BTW, to digress a bit, I disagree with Rick Steves' advice on travel to Europe where he says to just get off the train, wander around a bit, INSPECT the rooms before making a selection for the night. And I'm supposed to do this for every town/city I visit in Europe??? (What B...S...!) It's really not necessary, because with a little bit of pre-travel planning, I can get a very clean and inexpensive place set up ahead of time. Then, all my time during travel can be devoted to art, culture, food, architecture, love... of that country.
If you want to save money in China, you can find lots of inexpensive lodging in China just by doing a web search. There are plenty of places listed as "China hostels". I know of someone who went to China in November and stayed in "hostels" throughout South China. The pictures of the one in HK were especially appealing. She made her reservations at those hostels before leaving the States, even though she was travelling alone.
I have a lot more thoughts, but never mind those, just one final comment:
"The analogy with Mars really isn't helpful..." You're right, of course. I wrote that on the assumption that flafl doesn't speak Martian. Of course, he/she may be fluent in Martian and the analogy would therefore be most inappropriate!
I hope you don't mind my pointing out differences in thought. In 2004 China may well be in my travel plans and I look forward to receiving great advice from you, Peter, and from others as well!
Have a great day, Peter! And you too Cicerone! And happy travels to you, flafl!
Jan 24th, 2004, 10:18 AM
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The teens issue seems to have been covered already. We don't know the teens, and we don't know the parents. I would take teens to China, others wouldn't. Only the original poster can make up her own mind.
On the time issue, other intermediate options were given (booking agencies at airports, etc.), and it's not clear that flying in and taking a taxi to a chosen hotel and haggling for rooms is going to take significantly longer than flying in and taking a taxi to a hotel already booked. I don't think anyone has recommended spending half a day on this. The difference in price for a Chinese-run hotel is often going to be 50%. Whether that's going to be 50% of Y100 per room or Y800 per room, only the original poster can say, and whether that matters over multiple room nights and multiple rooms, only she can say, too. Again, the question was as to what is the least expensive way, and to turn up and book at the counter is the least expensive way (with certain quirks in special situations). For some turning up with no reservations is the only way to proceed and no problem at all, for others it's impossible to comprehend, and there are many more in the middle. The original poster will just have to make up her own mind.
Brief (not brief enough, often) postings here must of necessity generalize a little, and are often written in haste. But although I'm far from infallible, the remarks I make about hotels are based on solid and deliberate research, including many hundreds of room nights in accommodation ranging from Y8 per bed up to China's best in almost every Chinese province and autonomous region; on detailed inspections of thousands of Chinese hotels at all price ranges; on extensive conversations with thousands of reception staff, and with many General Managers and other senior foreign staff of major hotels. It also comes from deliberately test-driving 'budget' hotel sites, and making direct comparisons between web site prices, prices available over the phone, and prices available over the counter, at all levels of hotel. I only list this dull information to make the point that the advice I give on hotels, although no doubt imperfect, is not lightly given, and is not just based on the random experience of a tourist visit but of extremely extensive and detailed research. It should not, at least, be casually dismissed as likely to mislead.
'Hostels' is, however, a bit of a misleading term to use about accommodation in China, since there have only recently come into being any places like those to which Westerners would usually apply that term, and they are still not numerous (although there are many other forms of shared accommodation). Also, the situation in Hong Kong is completely different to that in mainland China, and little in HK should be taken as a sample of what's to be found on the mainland.
There's an endless quantity of cheap accommodation in mainland China (however 'cheap' is defined). The only budget accommodation I've ever come across which was charging the same on its web site as could be obtained over the counter were the very few mainland hostels on the IYHA web site. In all other cases you can expect to pay less over the counter. In general terms (setting aside the teens) you do much better to book as you go.
You'll only save money in China by doing a web search if that search wakes you up to the endless variety of not necessarily spotless but tolerable rooms available for Y100 (or less) to Y300 or so available across the country. However, you will pay more for them than you need to (not unusually 100% more) if you book in advance, so in that sense a web search will not save you money but rather the contrary, I'm sorry. And at busy periods in particular your reservation may indeed come to nothing, as other travellers have recently mentioned on this site.
As for the advice about inspecting rooms, in China it's essential for anything under five stars, and Chinese-run five stars should be given a look over, too. One 'five star' on Wangfujing itself went a decade without an interior redecoration and never lost a star. Most hotel rooms go steadily downhill from the day they open, and maintenance is kept to a minimum, or just ignored. However beaten up the rooms become, particularly at middle and lower level, the same shiny pictures remain in the lobby, on the brochures, and on the web sites. Deception of this kind is commonplace; almost the norm in fact. The best hotel is almost always the newest, but even there you may find that the main aircon intake is directly over your room, that you are next to the karaoke lounge, or that some vital item is missing. It's always worth a quick look first, and worth paying for just one night to start with (in most hotels you pay up front, plus a deposit) in case you discover problems with noise, water supplies, inadequate aircon, etc. after you check in.
It's also worth a look because even if I personally recommend a hotel to you as good value and of an acceptable standards, my relatively hardened experience of China travel and low expectations may have inured me to things which you as a new arrival may find intolerable. Similarly, I may feel a fastidiousness about hotels at the upper end that you may not if you were expecting China to give you something much worse. Independent travellers willing and able to alter their plans should always have a look at the room before handing over money. Those who book in advance will have to put up with what they get.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
On the time issue, other intermediate options were given (booking agencies at airports, etc.), and it's not clear that flying in and taking a taxi to a chosen hotel and haggling for rooms is going to take significantly longer than flying in and taking a taxi to a hotel already booked. I don't think anyone has recommended spending half a day on this. The difference in price for a Chinese-run hotel is often going to be 50%. Whether that's going to be 50% of Y100 per room or Y800 per room, only the original poster can say, and whether that matters over multiple room nights and multiple rooms, only she can say, too. Again, the question was as to what is the least expensive way, and to turn up and book at the counter is the least expensive way (with certain quirks in special situations). For some turning up with no reservations is the only way to proceed and no problem at all, for others it's impossible to comprehend, and there are many more in the middle. The original poster will just have to make up her own mind.
Brief (not brief enough, often) postings here must of necessity generalize a little, and are often written in haste. But although I'm far from infallible, the remarks I make about hotels are based on solid and deliberate research, including many hundreds of room nights in accommodation ranging from Y8 per bed up to China's best in almost every Chinese province and autonomous region; on detailed inspections of thousands of Chinese hotels at all price ranges; on extensive conversations with thousands of reception staff, and with many General Managers and other senior foreign staff of major hotels. It also comes from deliberately test-driving 'budget' hotel sites, and making direct comparisons between web site prices, prices available over the phone, and prices available over the counter, at all levels of hotel. I only list this dull information to make the point that the advice I give on hotels, although no doubt imperfect, is not lightly given, and is not just based on the random experience of a tourist visit but of extremely extensive and detailed research. It should not, at least, be casually dismissed as likely to mislead.
'Hostels' is, however, a bit of a misleading term to use about accommodation in China, since there have only recently come into being any places like those to which Westerners would usually apply that term, and they are still not numerous (although there are many other forms of shared accommodation). Also, the situation in Hong Kong is completely different to that in mainland China, and little in HK should be taken as a sample of what's to be found on the mainland.
There's an endless quantity of cheap accommodation in mainland China (however 'cheap' is defined). The only budget accommodation I've ever come across which was charging the same on its web site as could be obtained over the counter were the very few mainland hostels on the IYHA web site. In all other cases you can expect to pay less over the counter. In general terms (setting aside the teens) you do much better to book as you go.
You'll only save money in China by doing a web search if that search wakes you up to the endless variety of not necessarily spotless but tolerable rooms available for Y100 (or less) to Y300 or so available across the country. However, you will pay more for them than you need to (not unusually 100% more) if you book in advance, so in that sense a web search will not save you money but rather the contrary, I'm sorry. And at busy periods in particular your reservation may indeed come to nothing, as other travellers have recently mentioned on this site.
As for the advice about inspecting rooms, in China it's essential for anything under five stars, and Chinese-run five stars should be given a look over, too. One 'five star' on Wangfujing itself went a decade without an interior redecoration and never lost a star. Most hotel rooms go steadily downhill from the day they open, and maintenance is kept to a minimum, or just ignored. However beaten up the rooms become, particularly at middle and lower level, the same shiny pictures remain in the lobby, on the brochures, and on the web sites. Deception of this kind is commonplace; almost the norm in fact. The best hotel is almost always the newest, but even there you may find that the main aircon intake is directly over your room, that you are next to the karaoke lounge, or that some vital item is missing. It's always worth a quick look first, and worth paying for just one night to start with (in most hotels you pay up front, plus a deposit) in case you discover problems with noise, water supplies, inadequate aircon, etc. after you check in.
It's also worth a look because even if I personally recommend a hotel to you as good value and of an acceptable standards, my relatively hardened experience of China travel and low expectations may have inured me to things which you as a new arrival may find intolerable. Similarly, I may feel a fastidiousness about hotels at the upper end that you may not if you were expecting China to give you something much worse. Independent travellers willing and able to alter their plans should always have a look at the room before handing over money. Those who book in advance will have to put up with what they get.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 24th, 2004, 01:27 PM
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I believe your last post says it all.
Your purpose in China is different from that of most tourists. You go and inspect and bargain FOR THE PURPOSE of checking these things out, so that you can write about them for your august British guidebook. For that purpose, you will test the entire range of lodgings. You can test to see how low a hotel is willing to go. You have the luxury of walking away from a bid price that is not acceptable to you and go find something that is acceptable.
If I were doing what you do for a living, I could engage in the same tactics anywhere in the world, not just in China. Even here in the States, I once got a resort room that usually goes for $295 for $95. This sort of thing happens only once in a great while for me, because I'm not a travel writer. If I were, I'd probably be doing and saying the same things you are.
However, the vast majority of us go to China only infrequently. For some, only once in a lifetime. My point, rightly or wrongly, is that it is a waste of precious time to start negotiating for rooms while in country given the infrequency of travel to that country.
I also don't believe it's necessary to play so loosey-goosey with one's time when perfectly adequate rates can be negotiated beforehand. In other words, either as a tourist or as a business person, my purpose in travelling to a particular country is not the same as yours. Thus, I want as much of my time as possible for the purpose for which I came - touring the country, conducting business meetings, whatever.
The need to save has to be balanced with the time that has to be spent saving those dollars. My point is that the time spent savings dollars should be in the pre-travel planning stage. If you don't want to pay for travelling, then stay home. Otherwise, be happy with whatever prices you end up with and don't dash about a busy city with horrendous traffic trying to negotiate a "better" price.
As for travelling with children, flafl may have the most perfect quartet of children anyone has ever seen, BUT,
Right when flafl is ready to negotiate: one child is going to start feeling slightly ill, another will be HUNGRY, a third will feel an URGENT NEED TO PEE, and the fourth left his CD player at the airport - with his favorite CD in it!
Which is, of course, the perfect time for the spouse to say: "I told you we shouldn't have come to China!"
'Nuf said. I hope, later in the Spring, when I start posting my questions that you will answer in your usual thorough fashion, Peter.
Your purpose in China is different from that of most tourists. You go and inspect and bargain FOR THE PURPOSE of checking these things out, so that you can write about them for your august British guidebook. For that purpose, you will test the entire range of lodgings. You can test to see how low a hotel is willing to go. You have the luxury of walking away from a bid price that is not acceptable to you and go find something that is acceptable.
If I were doing what you do for a living, I could engage in the same tactics anywhere in the world, not just in China. Even here in the States, I once got a resort room that usually goes for $295 for $95. This sort of thing happens only once in a great while for me, because I'm not a travel writer. If I were, I'd probably be doing and saying the same things you are.
However, the vast majority of us go to China only infrequently. For some, only once in a lifetime. My point, rightly or wrongly, is that it is a waste of precious time to start negotiating for rooms while in country given the infrequency of travel to that country.
I also don't believe it's necessary to play so loosey-goosey with one's time when perfectly adequate rates can be negotiated beforehand. In other words, either as a tourist or as a business person, my purpose in travelling to a particular country is not the same as yours. Thus, I want as much of my time as possible for the purpose for which I came - touring the country, conducting business meetings, whatever.
The need to save has to be balanced with the time that has to be spent saving those dollars. My point is that the time spent savings dollars should be in the pre-travel planning stage. If you don't want to pay for travelling, then stay home. Otherwise, be happy with whatever prices you end up with and don't dash about a busy city with horrendous traffic trying to negotiate a "better" price.
As for travelling with children, flafl may have the most perfect quartet of children anyone has ever seen, BUT,
Right when flafl is ready to negotiate: one child is going to start feeling slightly ill, another will be HUNGRY, a third will feel an URGENT NEED TO PEE, and the fourth left his CD player at the airport - with his favorite CD in it!
Which is, of course, the perfect time for the spouse to say: "I told you we shouldn't have come to China!"
'Nuf said. I hope, later in the Spring, when I start posting my questions that you will answer in your usual thorough fashion, Peter.
Jan 27th, 2004, 06:33 AM
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Thank you, all, for such interesting responses. I have to say that it has been quite entertaining to read every single post.
I have gotten so much from every one of them and it is nice to see how some have faith in a traveler they do not know and how some others are concerned for that person!
Our teens are not perfect, but they're pretty good. We have triplets 14 years of age and a 12 year old.
As you can see they are at a good age, but I'd not let them explore on their own.
We do not speak chinese, but we have traveled extensively with our kids.
Although I have to admit that it has been mostly to first world countries (except for Mexico) and in very comfortable conditions,but they are excited and I think it will be the trip of a lifetime.
Since this is a more expensive trip, I'd like to go cheaper overall, but I don't think I can do a hostel, but maybe a Holiday Inn?
I was thinking of getting roundtrip from US to HK and HK hotel for 5 nights.Then use one day to arrange all travel plans while in HK. Probably 3 days in each city
hanghai, Xian and Beijing traveling by train inside China.
I'd like to do all of this for about $2,000 pp.
Do you guys think that it's doable or am I like fantazasing?
I have gotten so much from every one of them and it is nice to see how some have faith in a traveler they do not know and how some others are concerned for that person!
Our teens are not perfect, but they're pretty good. We have triplets 14 years of age and a 12 year old.
As you can see they are at a good age, but I'd not let them explore on their own.
We do not speak chinese, but we have traveled extensively with our kids.
Although I have to admit that it has been mostly to first world countries (except for Mexico) and in very comfortable conditions,but they are excited and I think it will be the trip of a lifetime.
Since this is a more expensive trip, I'd like to go cheaper overall, but I don't think I can do a hostel, but maybe a Holiday Inn?
I was thinking of getting roundtrip from US to HK and HK hotel for 5 nights.Then use one day to arrange all travel plans while in HK. Probably 3 days in each city
hanghai, Xian and Beijing traveling by train inside China.I'd like to do all of this for about $2,000 pp.
Do you guys think that it's doable or am I like fantazasing?
Jan 27th, 2004, 08:29 AM
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Rather too many variables to say precisely, but if this sum is for land arrangements only (it's not entirely clear, and certainly not even knowing the departure point impossible to guess the air fare), and if you travel as suggested, you should come home with money to spare.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
