Calling PeterN_H: So what is your recommended perfect intro to China Itinerary

I spent 10 weeks traveling alone through China, Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand. You will not be able tosee everything, but you must decide what you really want to see and then you must be flexible. Many folks speak English in China. If you are short of time skip Shanghai. Or if you want to see how the people really live get on the subway or a bus and get off somewhere and walk around. Just remember where the train station is located. I took busses to the end of the lines and back just to see how folks really live and it was fascinating.

You have plenty of time to see the things that you want to see - just rough plan your itinerary then fine tune it as needed.

If you are thinking about trips Outside cities then an ideal destination is the West of China - Sichuan or Yunnan - with visits to either Chengdu or Kunmimg.
Both cities are served by many airlines and from them you can travel to nearby scenic areas - the Tibetan plateau, with nomadic herders, temples and Yak is only 8 hours drive from Chengdu. In these locals you'll find 'battery-charger' type destinations - which differ greatly from some of the crowded, noisy, polluted scenes that are part and parcel of mordern city China!!!!
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Chengdu Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

> What do YOU think people should see in China in 3 weeks or less?

I think people should do whatever they want to do, although I do think they should do it with their eyes open, and aware of available options.

The problem with making specific recommendations lies in the immense variety of expectation, of obsession with planning and advance booking, and of the level of comfort required by different people.

But in general:

Beijing represents Beijing, Shanghai represents Shanghai, and neither represent China as a whole in any way. 'Real' China, and 70% of the population, is still down on the farm.

Luckily organised tourism (which effectively includes most backpackers, too, slavishly following the recommendations of their guidebooks) beats such a consistent and well-worn path round a mixture of truly great sights and dire ersatz rebuilt cod-Orientalism (with pizza) that 70% of China, and that includes 70% even of cities like Beijing, remains undiscovered by foreign visitors. So it really doesn't take much effort to leave the tour groups, the Coca-Cola, and the 'pearl' markets behind, and get a fresh experience where you won't see another foreign face all day.

Although transport and accommodation has become much more reliable than it used to be, and with many more options of both, in general there's still much to be said for NOT planning a detailed itinerary, but drawing up a list of priorities, and generally ambling round to see how far you get.

Domestic flights and rail tickets are much cheaper if bought at the point of departure. Hotel accommodation (outside foreign-run five-star hotels) is much cheaper if simply negotiated for at reception. Outside of certain key dates when the entire population of China takes to the road there's no shortage of transport options and far more beds than there are bodies. 2010 is a long way away, but 2009 is likely to see even more availability then usual and drop in even five-star rates down to something much nearer to the under US$100 that was common up until a few years ago (and is still common outside major cities). Newly-built three- and four-star hotels are often perfectly comfortable if erratic and cost only ¥2-300 a night.

With a starting point in Beijing and an ending point in Hong Kong, there really isn't any point in including other major cities if you want to have more of a look at real China, although Xi'an isn't exactly a village, either. Time to add some medium-sized towns, and some rural experience, which needn't by any means mean roughing it, if you're averse to that.

A few personal favourites on the middling scale you could look up in guide books:

Shaoxing (Zhejiang Province, south of Shanghai, east of Hangzhou). Little visited birthplace or place of residence of several important literary figures, including greatest ever calligrapher Wang Xizhi, and greatest modern novelist Lu Xun. Several ancient buildings connected with both are worth a visit, as is the quaint warren known as The Master Calligrapher's Native Place, where Wang Xizhi's home is found. You can have yourself poled around the canals and out to a lake in one of the traditional black-awning boats (a bit missable, but this is one of perhaps a dozen places supposedly known as 'the Venice of China'. An excellent countryside day trip by bus is to the even more watery village of Anchang, which offers excellent canalside walks around an assortment of ancient mansions and old banks (the money sort). Shaoxing's centre has been redeveloped but kept to a smaller and more homely scale. The town is famous for its 'yellow wine' (a spirit--nothing to do with grapes) and 'stinky' doufu (tofu), the aroma of which reaches out to you from many a restaurant.

Further south on the coast in Fujian Province, Quanzhou is an ancient trading port with Islamic connections, again with a redeveloped centre but again on a human scale. Several temples (the Kaiyuan Si and Tianhou Gong in particular), China's oldest surviving mosque, and two very long 11th-century bridges are amongst its attractions. The day trip to Chongwu, with its city wall, 2.5km long, intact, is well worth doing, and en route you pass through an area that specializes in stone carving and monumental sculpture, and which is also (like several other areas of China) reputed to have the country's most beautiful women.

You're unlikely to come across a single foreigner in either of these towns, which simply means fewer scams and rip-offs, real pricing, less pressure in general, and more natural interactions.

Not far south the rather better-known town of Xiamen is many people's favourite Chinese city, occupying an island, and one small corner with a warren of decaying shop-houses opposite an islet which is covered in treaty-port era pseudo-European housing, and which has no cars, is the part to visit. You can also take a little boat ride round the Taiwan-controlled Jinmen Dao if you please, and which would be just a short walk from the mainland if the sea weren't in the way. This town has been more developed for tourism, but still hasn't lost its charm.

The rural side-trip from here (can be day, but better a night or two) would be to the astonishing tulou or 'earth houses' of the Hakka (Kejia) minority up in the mountains inland. One group, at Yongding, has been readied for tourism but is still very well worth seeing, and there's nothing to stop you wandering in to some of the other vast fortress-like buildings not officially on the open list (the few remaining residents tend to be quite welcoming). You can stay overnight in primitive surroundings for next to nothing (single bare bulb, chamber pot or down four flights in the dark to the pit privy), or in more comfort in the neighbouring new town. There are direct buses from Xiamen but if you give it a couple of days you can travel by bus to several other villages with more of these places, at least one of which has been turned into a proper guesthouse with more comforts.

If you went from Beijing to Xi'an by overnight train, you could then fly over to Hangzhou and go by train (or more rapid and more frequent) by bus the short distance to Shaoxing. There are luxury aircon buses (free mineral water, tilting airline-style seating, computerised ticketing, frequent departures) that will take you down highways to Quanzhou and from Quanzhou to Xiamen. Xiamen has flights and direct buses to Hong Kong. So you could consider making a route out of this, although I think that would be tending more to the 21 days. But you'd get a proper idea of the size and variety of China, with several excursions into easily accessible countryside without having to rough it much.

You could also consider taking a long overland route to Xi'an from Beijing (rather more touristy--but involving medium-size towns, some spectacular sights, and some rural life).

First to Datong by train (Yungang Caves, Hanging Monastery, Wooden Pagoda, and some very ancient temples in the city itself). Then by bus to Wutai Shan, with multiple temples adorning five adjacent peaks (a bit too much for me). On down towards Taiyuan, stopping en route to see the oldest surviving temple buildings in China, and on to Pingyao (suffering from having been World Heritage listed, but still--city walls, ancient temples, ancient banks, major multi-courtyard buildings in the surrounding countryside). Then there are trains or buses from there to Xi'an.

You might finish by flying to otherwise highly avoidable Guangzhou and going on to Kaiping, before reaching Hong Kong by fast ferry from there.

More off the beaten track, and a bit more adventurous, continue by rail from Datong around the Yellow River loop to Yinchuan, the capital of Ningxia Province, whose eastern older part is full of pagodas and other relics of the long-forgotten Xi Xia dynasty, and whose neighbouring countryside offers a collection of tombs and monuments unique to the area, including those known (quite wrongly and confusingly) as 'China's Pyramids'. Lots of Mongolian and Hui (Muslim) influence here and excellent food to match.

It's possible then to follow a river valley southeast from here through numerous small towns and villages, by rail or bus to Xi'an, stopping as you please (including Guyuan), and perhaps wiggling to see the remarkable cave temple site at Tianshui, where an odd muffin-shaped mountain of red rock is riddled with statue-stocked caves, connected by a mesh of ladders and aerial walkways.

All of this assumes merely that you have a bit of gumption and refuse to be daunted by the lack of a shared language, which is only a problem to those who choose to make it one. All transport and hotels can (and should) be booked as you go, and no really detailed fixed itinerary should be arranged, so that you can spend more time in the places you enjoy. If you run short of time you just jump on a flight. Look up the places mentioned in a decent guide book and see which (if any appeal). Most of the towns mentioned have centres that are walkable, a relatively slow pace of life (by the rather frantic standards of China), and are of a scale that can just be enjoyed by strolling about as long as you're not of the cast of mind that's only satisfied by being dragged around a shopping list of must-sees by a hectoring (and entirely inaccurate) guide.

And, needless to say, these are only random thoughts, none of these routes is actually challenging or involves discomfort (the Ningxia one would be nearest), and there are myriad other possibilities.

In Beijing by all means give up a day to the Great Wall, and another to the Forbidden City, but after that spend a couple of days on less visited corners of the city: hutong walks around Huguo Si with its plethora of Beijing snack shops, or the old guildhall areas in the south of the city, or even in the ones around the old ice houses between Bei Hai and Jing Shan parks. Go nowhere near the Silk Alley or Pearl Market, but do enjoy the multi-storey markets where real locals shop (Vantone, Tianyi, etc.) and the real traditional markets such as the one at Baoguo Si. Don't forget that one of the main pleasures of travel to China is food, and come well prepared with a guide to regional cuisine, to the key dishes, and to where to go.

I don't think I have time to read through all this at the moment and see if it makes sense, or to remove punctuation and spelling errors. So apologies for those, but hope these thoughts might stimulate some further reading. By 2010, China will be a different place of course.

End of rambling.

Peter N-H

"Many folks speak English in China"

jemappell, I'd just add a note of caution here insofar as it takes only a small proportion of 1.4 billion people to amount to "many".

We found a good number of English speakers in the main tourist areas and in western-style hotels, mostly people in the business of selling you something. You might get lucky, but as a rule you can't walk off the beaten track even in Shanghai and Beijing and expect to find an English-speaker on every corner.

There are certainly a lot of people who've had some exposure to English lessons at school. However, unless they're in the minority who've been taught by a native English speaker or whose job has allowed them to attain some proficiency they'll have had little chance to practice meaningful spoken English, and may be nervous about getting into a conversation with a foreigner*. Often they'll be more comfortable with written English - a couple of times I found a written note helped.

It doesn't really matter that much, though - it's surprising how far a bit of preparation and some sign language will get you.

* Having studied high school French for three years and emerged with lots of grammar and vocabulary but virtually no ability to speak with a real live Frenchman I know how they feel.

Thanks to all for your responses but especially to Peter for putting in so much detail.

You might be able to tell that I am a planner. This is a real departure for me not to have every minute planned, but I am willing to go for it. After having traveled to more than 30 countries, DH and I went on our first "group tour" to Russia last year. I loved the trip, but I have to admit, that I still like being independent. We thought we would have to do a tour due to the written language being so different but we had two independent days and we did great even in areas where no one spoke English. I am getting inspired by all the great trip reports and photos. Although the trip isn't until April 2010, we are traveling on frequent flier miles so I need to have at least a rudimentary plan to be able to book the tickets almost a year out. That should be around the end of May I think. My DH reminded me that he plans to retire again in Feb 2010, so I think we will have more time. I will keep reading and take your ideas into consideration.

Finally, two more ideas I had that I would love an opinion on. It seems from other trip reports that getting into Hong Kong from other parts of China is difficult. Has this changed in the last year with new political developments? Or would it be easier to fly into Hong Kong and start the trip from there. It certainly seems to make sense from a weather standpoint to move north as the weather gets warmer.

Secondly, I am considering renting one or more apartments on a daily basis through VRBO.com. There aren't many in China, but the few they have look nice for the price. That would certainly give us a real experience that we might not get in a hotel. Any thoughts?

Peter, I bought one of the guidebooks you authored or edited and I subscribed to your listserv.

Everyone, thanks for your patience. You are likely to hear from me many times in the next year. I promise to do a TR when I get back. Thanks again.

There are non-stop flights from all major cities in China to Hong Kong. Or you can fly to Shenzhen (SZX) and take a direct bus - about 1.5 hours - to Hong Kong.

From Guangzhou, you can take a non-stop train that takes under 2 hours.

Some of the border crossings are crowded and messy, and I believe that's what you're reading. As long as you choose the right crossing to cross, it's very easy.

> It seems from other trip reports that getting into Hong Kong from other parts of China is difficult.

There is no difficulty entering Hong Kong from the Chinese mainland whatsoever, nor has there been for many years, save that walking across the border from Shenzhen can take a couple of hours at busy times. But there are direct flights to Hong Kong from very many points around China; direct rail services from Beijing, Guangzhou, Shanghai, and other points; direct buses from Shenzhen airport and assorted other towns around the Pearl River Delta and as far as Shenzhen; and direct boat links from Macau and other points around the delta, too. A direct highway-bridge link to Macau is under construction.

> Secondly, I am considering renting one or more apartments on a daily basis through VRBO.com.

Well don't. These prices are absurd, and it's booking services like this through English-language websites targeting gullible foreigners that simply ensure you'll pay vastly more than you need to for everything. Don't even think about accommodation until 2010, and then book as little in advance as you can bear to.

Peter N-H

One of the highlights of my China trip was a vist to the Yellow Mountain (Huangshan). I went there in October, so I don't know whether it's doable in April. Huangshan is the most beautiful mountain I've seen.

Around Huangshan, in the Anhui province, there are two ancient villages that i find very interesting.

I do not see any of the reliable and trusted fordorites on this thread so the advise on this thread cannot be trusted imho.

Most fodorites here know that PeterN_H is one of the most unreliable and prejudiced persons on this site . I cannot believe anyone would believe a word he writes.

If you have really searched for information on China you would find that Peter NH's opinions are tainted and opinionated to say the least
seek other opinions sdtravels if you are really serious about travel within China, if not well its all up to you.

Ask your questions without Peter's name in the subject. You might get a real answer by a real fodorite. Most China fodorite experts ignore threads with Peter Nhs name in it because of his bad behavior and attitude against any opinion other than his. It is obviously your choice but you are limiting your answers if you only ask for only Peter's advise

I don't want to get in the middle of anything here, but I will go on record that PeterNH seems to have a good deal of information about China and appears to have written a couple of Cadogan China guides, which would make his advice worth reading, at the least.

Peter, do you live in Hong Kong?

Actually, it is precisely because I noticed that Peter is critical of most itineraries that I asked him directly. He does seem to give a lot of "don'ts" without many "dos". He obviously has a lot of experience and credits to his name, so I want to know what the "dos" are in his opinion. As far as I've noticed, he always says "do what you want, just know what you are doing". He hasn't ever criticized a trip report that I have seen. In fact there is one he was very complimentary toward that I plan to read later.

In the end, I think that he may over estimate people's abilities to deal with a completely foreign environment, because he himself can't understand what is so hard. I am an accountant and I can't figure out why people think its so hard to do taxes. It all lies in one's own experience level. If I can benefit from someone's experience in even a small way I will take advantage of it. Future questions will probably not have Peter's name in them. In this case, I really did want his opinion and I appreciate his willingness to take the time to answer me in such detail. Peter is obviously passionate about China and genuinely wants others to experience the China that he has seen.

There is so much on this forum that may not be right for everyone. That's why I read a lot, take what I need and leave the rest. Downunderjack, I hope you will be willing to give me your opinions and let me benefit from your experience in my future posts.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to this site. I have been using it and sometimes contributing to it in various forums for probably more than 10 years.

sdtravels writes -

"There is so much on this forum that may not be right for everyone"

which I reckon is dead right - and why very opinionated advice seems to stick in some reader's craws.
But the passage in this thread that gets me head-scratching - which seems mainly focused on the Peter post - comes from downunderjack -

"I do not see any of the reliable and trusted fordorites on this thread so the advise on this thread cannot be trusted imho"

Dearest downunder how does one get into this reliable and trusted brotherhood - has poor Peter cheated and misled you in some way – after all I never see him advertising any services in his posts. Maybe a better way of joining a thread like this would be to display a reliable, trustworthy, knowledge regarding China travel – giving the kind of advice that could better suite some readers than that given by other posters.

As for me – I’ll just repeat my piece – any trip to China that misses out on the scenic splendor of the West – is one that misses out on some of the best and most exciting this country has to offer!!!

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Chengdu Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

Laowai:

I think that Peter's advice to me was right on. I am so glad that he responded. I agree that it is good to see a balance. And I do so hate big cities having worked in NYC for many years.

Your post also intrigues me. I have been on and off again on going to Lhasa, Tibet. And having just finished watching "7 Years in Tibet", I may be on it again. What would you say I should see in the west? Keep in mind, I am very adverse to roughing it too much. Don't like camping without color TV and never pee in the woods.

Are you a travel industry professional?

I’m hardly a professional - more a kind of plodding amateur who 'exploits' tourism to help pay for one of the serious loves of my life - birding
http://sichuanbirds.blogspot.com/

Birding often takes us to some remarkable spots - but with many of them peeing in the forest is a bit of the must - since luckily mainstream tourist development hasn't yet converted vast swathes of pristine environment into crowded tourist ghettos such as – Jiuzhaigou (this seems to be the number 1 scenic tourist spot of Sichuan)

But in the spirit of advising about places to go rather than putting folk off - I'd recommend a tour up onto the Tibetan Plateau - driving from Chengdu to Kangding the gateway to the plateau takes abour 6/7 hours - and another couple of hours you're up on the Grasslands at heights over 3,000m - yaks, Temples, locals that still look like they've just emerged out of the Heinrich Harrer book etc etc. And although you won’t find opulent luxury in the way of accommodation - you can still find some good hotels (run by Chinese) - but then again living in a slightly more primitive Tibetan type guesthouse can be a far more memorable experience for some
As us brits say - it's horses for courses!!!
Here’s a pic report on a 5 day trip we did with some young birders - Chengdu to the grassland and back in 5 days - that was in November - still a lot of sun up on the plateau - but brrrrrrrrr, at the moment, it can get cold during the nights!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/2008/11/blog-post.html

Someone's bored. Check out post #18 onwards...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china/896607-first-time-china-family-any-ideas.html

Laowai, I think that's cool. I'm a backyard birdwatcher and this time of year I see some really unusual and colorful birds that seem to just be passing through the area because I dont' see them any other time of year.

Ah, yes, Ray.

thanks Jaya - although this thread isn't about birding - the very fact that China is such a hotspot for birders indicates how much wildlife does still hang-on outside the polluted mess of the more developed areas. The more tourists that seek the 'clean' will give more reason for locals to conserve rather than develop - like they have in so many of the better known tourist spots/ghettos.
If you really like bird photos - then visit our 'hard-core' China birding blog - on the web's biggest biding forum - birdforum. My wife takes nearly all our bird pics. We go by the name of China guy in the blogs the latest blog written today, after a visit with some German guests to Bi Feng Xia Panda research center, can be found at -
http://www.birdforum.net/blog.php?b=1030
You can find 20 of our blog articles about Sichuan birds on that site
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China Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the link. I'll look at it today. It'll be a nice diversion from the snow that's coming down right now!

Jaya, he's got some great bird photos - enjoy!

I may have mentioned that my DH is retiring for the second time in Feb 2010. So I got to thinking...why am I limiting myself? I have plenty of vacation! What do you think of this plan?

Independent travel:
Day
1 Flight to Tokyo
2-3 Overnight in Tokyo
4 Golf in Tokyo
5 Day in Kyoto by Bullet Train
6 Tokyo
7 Flight to Shanghai
8 Shanghai
9 Golf in Shanhai
10 Water Town
11 Flight to Beijing
12 Great Wall
13 Tianamen Square
14-15 More Beijing
16 Train to Datong
17 Caves
18 Hanging Monastery
19 Wutai Shan
20 train to Pingyao
21 Day in Pingyao
22 Train to Xian
23 Terracotta Warriors
24 City Tour
25 Train to Chengdu
26 Leshan
27 Flight to Guilin
28 Li river trip
29-30 Guilin
31 Flight to Hong Kong
32-33 Hong Kong
34 Flight to US

I know if you aren't a golfer you're going to say you wouldn't play golf, you can do that anywhere. We just happen want to try to play golf in every country we go to. We played in Russia this year.

I figure between Beijing and Chengdu we can go with the flow since it will be train travel. Only the air travel has to be locked in due to the use of FF miles.

thanks for your help!

What a luxury to have all that time! Enjoy.

Ah, I see the trip is growing! Some points:

Do you really only want one day for Kyoto? I haven't been, but from everything I've read it's worth much more than that.

You don't need separate days for the Datong caves and the Hanging Monastery - you can do both in one day with a car and driver.

There's enough to see in and around Chengdu to warrant more time than you've allowed. At the very least, plan to see the pandas.

> 19 Wutai Shan
> 20 train to Pingyao

You seem to be making rather unwarranted assumptions here that a) trains go where you want them to, and b) they go at suitable times.

Wutai Shan station is inconveniently well to the north of the park, and Pingyao is to the south. The only train I'm aware of leaves at 2am. The method here is bus to Taiyuan, then bus to Pingyao.

I'd agree that the Hanging Monastery and Yungang Caves in Datong can be done in the same day, although not usually with the Wooden Pagoda. It's pick two from three even if one of the rather useful one-day tours is taken (public transport isn't convenient, so this is one time it's worth succumbing to the local travel agency--just don't do any shopping anywhere they take you). There are two important temples of dramatic antiquity in the town itself that shouldn't be forgotten, although it should also be noted that Datong is otherwise a very unlovely town, and its economy's reliance on coal production very evident.

You seem to have forgotten to give Wutai Shan any time except as an overnight sleep. China's very big, and it does take time to get from place to place.

Hong Kong deserves more time than it is being given here.

And the schedule still looks very busy, and in fact completely exhausting (and I speak as a veteran China traveller).

Peter N-H

Thanks again Peter. I haven't investigated all the details of transportation yet. I was taking your advice of "don't plan out every second". I have another couple of months before I have to decide. I value your input as well as other on this forum. Your advice will give me more to think about. Thanks!

Thanks everyone, here's the latest draft:

1 Flight to Osaka
2 Arrive PM
3-5 Kyoto
6 Bullet Train to Tokyo
7-8 Tokyo
9 Golf in Tokyo
10 Fly to Beijing
11 Golf in Beijing
12 Great Wall
13 Tianamen Square
14 Shopping
15 Temples
16 Flight to Datong
17 Caves/Hanging Monastery
18 Dataong Temples
19 Train to Pingyao (looks like there is an 11pm train)
20 Day in Pingyao
21 Train to Xian
22 Terracotta Warriors
23 City Tour
24 Flight to Chengdu
25 Chengdu
26 Leshan day trip
27 Flight to Guilin
28 Li river trip
29-30 Yangshou
31 Flight to Hong Kong
32-34 Hong Kong
35 Flight to US

Laowai, your comments on Tibet are really making me think that I have to squeeze in at least 4 days to Tibet from Chengdu. That might happen yet. Any advice on how to arrange that? I think for this part I would use a tour and most go to Lhasa. Any other suggestions? Sorry to say I am definitely not a birder. I tried it a few times and get a bit frustrated in trying to identify the birds and not getting close enough to get photos.

Kim_lee, Huangshan is also of interest to me. I have seen many beautiful photos. However since I dropped Shanghai, it may be out of my way. Have you been to Guilin/Yangshou? Do you think I should skip that in favor of Huangshan?

thursdaysd, I dropped Shanghai in favor of more days in Kyoto/Tokyo. I'll be posting some questions marked for Japan.

You may have realized that, for me, planning is a large part of the fun of traveling. I hope I don't wear out my welcome on this Forum!

Once I get the rough itinerary done, my next step will be looking at places to stay.

Some I am looking at are:
Dejuyuan Folk-style Guesthouse in Pingyao, Li River Retreat in Yangshou. Any comments or suggestions?

PeterN_H, I'm kind of surprised that you think $99 is to much to pay for a two bedroom apartment in Beijing, yet you recommend hotels with rates over $100 like JiHouseCN (which by the way looks great) What is a realistic rate for this hotel for advance booking albeit close to departure.

I would like to stay close to FC in Beijing and I was considering Motel 268 or Autumn/Spring Garden Courtyard hotels in Beijing for location and price. However,it will be important to get some rest in Beijing so comfort is the most important factor above and location, although price still has to be around $100. We don't like hard beds so we might not sleep for a month! Any suggestions?

Thanks everyone!!!!!

> PeterN_H, I'm kind of surprised that you think $99 is to much to pay for a two bedroom apartment in Beijing, yet you recommend hotels with rates over $100 like JiHouseCN (which by the way looks great)

I think you need to re-read the recommendation, and to think about the difference between recommending a hotel for its physical or service qualities, and recommending its price, which I make quite clear I think should be lower.

As with the train services, you need to stop making assumptions and do a little more reading. For Chinese-run hotels, the best price is available over the counter on the day you want to check-in. The published price (even if it claims to be a discounted published price) is paid by no one (except some at least who read this site, perhaps, and who simply cannot or will not get over the cultural differences, or who absolutely must micro-manage and plan every single aspect of their trips in advance. Some people are only comfortable travelling that way (and that's entirely up to them) but there are higher prices for everything across the board as a result.)

The published price for Chinese-run hotels is no different from the first asking price when you're bargaining for some supposedly Song dynasty dish in a market. It's a positioning statement and that's all. In the case of the dish it's designed to re-state that the dish is truly antique (it was manufactured last month, deliberately cracked, and buried for a bit to age it) and because if a customer (and particularly a dumb foreigner [from the vendor's point of view]) is asked for ¥500 he's more likely to end up both paying ¥200, and being happy about it, than the ¥10 (maximum) the thing is actually worth. If the foreigner was asked ¥200, he might only end up paying ¥100: still ten times too much but half the price if ¥500 is first asked. It's the same for the hotel room: We're so wonderful we're *worth* ¥2000, says the website, so when we offer you a room for ¥1000 you'll think it's a deal. (But the guy in the next room to you paid ¥350, because he turned up with cash in hand, wasn't misled by the first asking price, and bargained.)

It is not in the least unusual to end up paying as little as 30% of the published price to stay in a room in Beijing, and to pay the full published price is practically unheard of, unless you absolutely insist on treating the 'information' on a hotel's English-language pages, which often target inexperienced foreigners, as relevant in the same way it would be for a hotel in New York, or a Hilton anywhere.

> What is a realistic rate for this hotel for advance booking albeit close to departure.

Unfortunately crystal balls are in short supply this year, but you can consider the influences at play as well as I can: tourism growth was down last year, and tourism overall will be well down this year (it already is). Guide book sales were already down typically 6-13% last year, and will likely plummet this one. The Chinese economy is in chaos, with vast numbers of factory closures and other businesses going bust, meaning that demand from that (tiny percentage but numerically many) segment of the domestic market able to pay the sort of prices discussed will also shrink. As the year continues, this is likely to become more and more evident.

Will there be a recovery by 2010 (why on earth, in the China context are we even bothering to have this discussion--will some of the hotels even still be standing by then?) Who's to say? But right now nobody thinks so. By then prices should be far more realistic, and back to what they were about eight years ago.

Consider, too, that many hotels of this kind have been opening at the same time, and that approaching 10,000 new rooms have come on-stream (including some to open this year) at four/five-star level, and that all these newly-opened places are busy cutting their expectations down and down already, which puts further pressure on hotels beneath them.

On the other hand, and as already mentioned, if we're talking about properties like Ji House, the small number of rooms there may have an effect on keeping prices up, particularly now I've mentioned the place on a forum many of whose readers seem to think that US$100 (to US$300) is a fair price for a hotel wherever they go, and that booking in well in advance of arrival is completely unavoidable. On the other hand, the Ji House will have done no advertising, and it will take a while yet for word to get about locally. I did see one other small party of foreigners when I was there, and unfortunately they were friends of diplomats, which typically (over a long history of foreign resident diplomacy in Beijing--many funny accounts from the 19th century onwards) means that silly sums are paid without demure.

And, naturally, for any one particular week in 2010, except for noting that it's an off-season week, how can anything be said?

But the Motel 268 you mention is a completely different sort of experience. This is a hotel chain from a relatively recently developed kind known as 'jingji' or 'economy' hotels, aimed at businessmen. Motel 268 (and its sister properties Hotel 168) are copying (along with several other chains) the Jinjiang Inn chain, who are the market leaders. Some of the hotels are newly built, but for the most part an existing building, run by some brainless work unit with zero business sense, is bought up, gutted, and refitted on modern lines. The rooms are small, the bathrooms are shower-only. The furniture tends to be pale, modern, and limited; the paintwork is typically pastel. Most are still quite new and throughout 2008 many new ones were opening. TVs don't tend to have foreign channels, but there is usually free wireless Internet access (occasionally a tiny fee is payable). Breakfast is usually not included for available for ¥10-¥15. Paying a membership fee earns a modest discount on published prices for future stays.

These are simple but functional places, not rooms attractive in their own right, and they are for people who don't want backpacker-style places but for whom economy is important. For the book-in-advance Western mind-set one of their main attractions is that their prices are fixed. However, some caution is needed. Motel 268 has indeed some rooms at ¥268, but if we're talking about the Jinyu Hutong property (near the Hilton Wangfujing and the Peninsula) there are only eight at that price. Most of the rooms are ¥398, and you *will* need to book in advance to get the cheaper rooms. These don't have windows, whereas the more expensive ones do.

If you want to consider this kind of hotel, then look around the Web for Jinjiang Inn, Joy Inn (a good one close to Chongwen Men metro just east of Tian'an Men Square), the Hanting Jiudian (I like the one in Tonglin Ge Lu, not far from Changchun Jie metro), Shindom (the Da Zha Lan one is well-positioned, and there's another quiet one just north of Taoran Ting Park, although that's awkward for public transport, but there's an excellent vegetarian restaurant close by).

Peter N-H

That reply was a bit harsh. I'm going for a month I would think I need to develop a realistic budget based on today's prices (no crystal ball required). Also, when I get off the plane, I would think an approximate direction would be wise. No hotels are going to jump up and bite me. You've repeated your advice multiple times, I got it. Thanks.

I'm sorry you disliked the long message I wrote in reply to the remarks you addressed to me, which was intended to paint as clear and helpful a picture for you as possible, with various recommendations and quite a degree of detailed description of particular types of hotel, and which took me considerable time to write. I hope someone else will find it of use.

I don't see that anyone has objected to you asking for directions (I certainly haven't), but if you still think you can get some idea of prices in April 2010 from the situation in January 2009 then either you haven't really read what I wrote, or I don't think I can have explained things very well. I'm sorry about that. Perhaps someone else can help.

Peter N-H

If you've read what I have written, I very much appreciate the time you have taken to explain things in detail. Perhaps it is the delivery in email, but between the great advice, you have enough comments about my intentions and inability to "not plan" that it takes me two days to calm down before I can read the advice. I'm not an idiot. And no you never "said" it, but it certainly is implied. Apology accepted. I look forward to reading more of your advice.

I'm afraid I've no intention of spending more time on some one who insists on seeing ill-nature and personal attack in generalities on travel in China posted with the best intentions of helping and that contain nothing of the kind. No apology whatsoever is offered for imaginary personal slights. I hope other less thin-skinned readers will benefit from what has already been said, and be able better to plan their trips as a result.

Peter N-H

Another area you may want to consider is Yunan Province, very scenic area and excellent golf courses. Not sure if you have to golf in Beijing but Guilin/Yangshou (do not give this up for Huangshan) have gorgeous golf courses and is warmer.

Have you thought of the amazing 180-hole Mission Hills in Shenzhen near Hong Kong?

Thanks for the advice on the golf. Yes, since we watch a lot of golf on TV, Mission Hills was our first pick. If I remember correctly, it is pretty expensive. I am not sure you can bargain with that organization, but even if you can, it seemed like it would be a bit high. Do you have any first hand knowledge about pricing and the best way to get a tee time? Thanks.
By the way, I am leaving tomorrow to play Pebble Beach! Got a great deal, but it still blew my golf budget for a few years!

Sd - with regard to your comments on ornithology - maybe you're not a birder - but the best birding spots (as long as you aint into seagulls on a rubbish-dump) - usually go hand in hand with the kind of good and scenic environment that most people can enjoy.

As for arranging those Lhasa tours - well there's an abundance of those - but the there can be a problem if you don't want to be part of the herd. Lhasa its self has turned into bit of a tourist ghetto - where the business-wise have found a good living (often the Chinese and those with roots in Nepal) - to see that kind of Tibet (the one that lies in our imagination) I'm afraid you have to venture far out of the city. So if you choose to take to Lhasa - and at the moment the Chinese officially insist its through a tour group - Id advise in choosing that tour carefully, otherwise Lhasa could turn out to be just another Chinese tourist stop.
So with respect to a more authentic type Tibetan excursion - I would also consider a trip up onto the Plateau from either Sichuan or Yunnan (no permits or tour groups needed here) - plenty of clued up experts to help you arrange that kind of trip in Chengdu or Kunming.
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Chengdu Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

PS, as a follow on to my last post - that info Peter gives on the hotel situation is pretty spot-on - last summer, because of the Olympic visa debacle and stay at home watch the games on the TV locals, you could get huge discounts by just turning up and asking for the best room-rate - there were very few tourists!!!!
Planning for the future tourist economy of China seems to be a total shambles - so many empty rooms and no tourists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exploiting this fact - for the outsider - is always the problem. But if your the coragous traveler - then you'll be able to overcome the language barrier and get still get a dirt-cheap but very comfortable holiday over here.
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Chengdu Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

Thanks laowai, I don't necessarily want to go to Lhasa, I guess I didn't phrase my question properly. I meant, do you have any other suggestions on how to get to Tibet without being part of the herd. I didn't know the part about not needing a permit if you don't go to Lhasa. Can you point me where to find more information.

Well if you're thinking of Eastern Tibet - which is called Kham - then a good start for your investigations would be to google up these two words - kham tour

In yunnan the most popular Tibetan destination has been given the title Shangri La - so another good google search would be - shangri la yunnan

Also check out info on Lijiang - this place has the quality to serve the tourist who's looking for comfort - but is maybe a little too smooth for the rougher traveler like me
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Chengdo Travel blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

Thanks! Will do.

I don't have info on golf courses pricing and tee time, I don't play but did research course locations for a friend.

For Lijiang, click my name and scroll down to December for a report on our visit in November, there are beautiful courses there too although I would not recommend the high altitude ones. You can also read Peter's remarks.

If you can squeeze in another week, I suggest try to include Hangzhou, Suchou and a watertown near Shanghai.

bookmarking

Update: We are leaving in one month! Can't wait. Big cities are going to be Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Beijing. Also going to Guilin, Longsheng, Xian, Pingyao, and Datong. Maybe also a water town outside Shanghai. We might take a few side trips here and there as well. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice for this trip.

Have a wonderful time and do let us know your experience!

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