Beijing and shopping
Jan 8th, 2004, 02:01 PM
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Beijing and shopping
My daughter, sister, nieces and myself will be descending on Beijing in February and am seeking information on great shopping! We may take in a few sites, as well. Ideas?
Jan 8th, 2004, 02:50 PM
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On shopping, start by looking at this thread:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34463409
which gives some general advice.
Beijing isn't really a shopping destination, or at least not in the conventional way. The standard advice is to proceed to the Silk Market, but starting prices are outrageous and the place is far too well-visited. There's little silk in fact, and its main products are fake wannabe-Western clothes. Other markets away from the centre have the same material for much less. The 'Pearl Market' is the next recommendation usually given, but the pearls are low quality or fake, and no one without a thorough knowledge of prices at home and the ability to detect fakes, should be shopping for any high-priced items, especially including jewellery, 'jade', or 'antiques', all of which will be fake.
Many markets, and especially perhaps Panjiayuan at the weekends are great fun, but for looking rather than buying.
There are some shops selling silk to locals which are the ones you should visit. If that's your interest then a few addresses can be posted here. Tailoring services in Beijing are of modest ability, but if any of the women have ever wanted a form-fitting qi pao (cheongsam--traditional Chinese dress with slit skirt) this is the place to get them.
Beijing is good for children's clothing, toys, eyewear, and tea.
Here's some general advice on bargaining reposted from an earlier discussion, and which mentions a few items typically bought by foreign visitors:
It's the knowledge that dumb foreigners think that paying half price is a pretty good deal which years ago drove first asking prices for foreigners to five, ten, or even fifteen times what will actually be accepted. There's nothing to lose, and vendors find time after time, as this general 'wisdom' that half price is a good deal circulates around foreign tourists, that they can easily end up with 2.5, 5, or 7.5 times what they would usually expect to get. Only in places which see few foreign faces, and if you can speak Mandarin yourself, is the vendor likely to give you a first price double or less what he'll accept. In tourist ghettos such as Beijing's Silk Market, a fake Timberland shirt will typically have a first asking price of Y180, but can be obtained for Y45 (and if you go to other clothing markets you can even find them labelled for that price, so you can go a little lower still). At Panjiayuan the Chinese are buying Yixing teapots for Y8 to Y10, but the first asking price to may be Y50. On other items a multiple of 15 (and going up) is common. On very expensive items (carpets, etc.) the multiple will not be so great, but the sum lost by the overhasty purchaser all the greater in size.
Never make the first offer. The first price spoken is a kind of marker which affects the outcome. It's a positioning statement, and a way of finding out just how dumb the other party is. The higher the first price, the better the chance that the final price will also be higher, too. Bartering is about knowledge and ignorance, and out-of-towners are always more ignorant of local prices (this applies equally to a Shanghainese visiting Beijing). In clannish China being an out-of-towner makes you an acceptable target for unfair practices of all kinds. Being visibly foreign marks you as an ideal mark--someone with both a bulging wallet and radical ignorance, unless you turn out to be someone from the cannier end of expatdom (expats rarely have any idea of real prices either--they live in a different world). Even long-term residents find they are asked twice the price for tomatoes at their nearest street stall. Asking a high price is also a way of finding out just how ignorant you are, and so how to manage negotiation to the final result.
So get the vendor to say a price first. He has nothing whatsoever to lose by putting this sky high and seeing what happens. He'll often strike lucky with the laissez faire attitude advocated above (and that's up to you) and make his profit for the day in a single transaction. If you look pained, surprised, knowing, or amused, and withdraw, he can immediately cut it in half to keep your attention, and if you are new to this you'll immediately think you're on the way to a good deal. You'll often see this happen, and some people are inclined to become angry: "Hey! He's trying to rip us off!" Well, yes and no. He's just trying to get the best financial result for himself, and you didn't have to put yourself in the position of negotiating with him, did you? This is how bargaining works. In any society the price of something is what someone is willing to pay. In this case foreign tourists, in their ignorance, have frequently demonstrated a willingness to pay half of whatever they've been asked, and so prices rise accordingly.
Your first offer should be made reluctantly, and at not more than 10% of his price. This is a situation which continues to change--if everyone comes to accept that paying 10% is about right (supposing things were that simple) then first asking prices will head yet higher still, and first offers should go down. Like the vendor, you can quickly head upwards if you really want the item. You also have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The lower your first offer, the better the chance that the final price will be something near reasonable. Your positioning statement is: "Hey! I may be shopping in a market for tourists, but I wasn't born yesterday." With a regretful smile, of course.
The vendor's price will then usually drop by a large margin. If his first was Y100 and yours Y10, he may come to Y80 or Y50. Your next offer should be Y11 or so. The fact that he is continuing the conversation at all shows that you shouldn't be heading higher in any hurry. And you should continue to go up in small increments as he comes down in larger ones. Walking away is always the way to discover if you've reached bottom or not. The result of all this is that you'll pay a little more than an out-of-town Chinese, but great deal less than the average foreign visitor--half, a third, a quarter... And with the right attitude you'll have lots of fun doing it.
Wherever there's a vendor of any one type of item, there are always many of them. The numbers almost always swell well beyond the capacity of the market to absorb their merchandise. In short, almost all markets, even those riddled with tourists, are buyers' markets. The odd sale to a 50%-er is enough to keep a stall going for a while, and regular, reasonable profit from others is always welcome. There's no need to be madly fixated on paying not a penny more than a Chinese would, but there's no point in giving money away (and there are charity cases in far greater need if you want to do that).
To get the best prices:
Never shop where your tour guide takes you, or at shops which take foreign credit cards
Avoid well-known tourist markets if you can, such as Beijing's Silk Market (which has almost no silk). Yes, there are lots of Chinese shopping there, too, but they know what they are doing, and you don't; and the vendors know they know, and know that you don't understand what prices are being discussed. There are always places where local people shop (see silk shop list mentioned earlier, for example). As in any other country, shopping away from the centre of town is a good idea. Ask the staff of your hotel where they actually shop (although this only works for everyday items such as clothes, shoes, suitcases, etc.)
Shop out of season. This is an option open mostly only to independent travellers, but those on organised tours with only a little free time should at least understand that a rainy day is better for shopping in markets--prices quickly tumble when customers are few. There's also a greater willingness to give you a reasonable price when there aren't lots of other people to overhear this happening. On a sunny day, in a tourist market with lots of tourists in a hurry, prices may simply stay several multiples of what they should be because there are enough people paying those prices to make it not worth spending time with those who want to bargain harder
Never buy near the entrance to a market, or at the first stall of any particular kind that you come across. Always go deeper in, and never (or rarely) buy from the first stall where you start discussing prices. Use your willingness to walk away to educate yourself by getting the lowest price you can from a vendor, encouraging you to make yet lower bids to the next one you speak to
Unless you are an expert, or have spent a great deal of time getting to know quality and price internationally, never buy expensive items in China. There are endless fakes of absolutely everything, and you cannot get a good price on anything with an international market value, unless that thing is actually a fake. Strike carpets, jewellery, gems, and all antiques off your shopping list.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34463409
which gives some general advice.
Beijing isn't really a shopping destination, or at least not in the conventional way. The standard advice is to proceed to the Silk Market, but starting prices are outrageous and the place is far too well-visited. There's little silk in fact, and its main products are fake wannabe-Western clothes. Other markets away from the centre have the same material for much less. The 'Pearl Market' is the next recommendation usually given, but the pearls are low quality or fake, and no one without a thorough knowledge of prices at home and the ability to detect fakes, should be shopping for any high-priced items, especially including jewellery, 'jade', or 'antiques', all of which will be fake.
Many markets, and especially perhaps Panjiayuan at the weekends are great fun, but for looking rather than buying.
There are some shops selling silk to locals which are the ones you should visit. If that's your interest then a few addresses can be posted here. Tailoring services in Beijing are of modest ability, but if any of the women have ever wanted a form-fitting qi pao (cheongsam--traditional Chinese dress with slit skirt) this is the place to get them.
Beijing is good for children's clothing, toys, eyewear, and tea.
Here's some general advice on bargaining reposted from an earlier discussion, and which mentions a few items typically bought by foreign visitors:
It's the knowledge that dumb foreigners think that paying half price is a pretty good deal which years ago drove first asking prices for foreigners to five, ten, or even fifteen times what will actually be accepted. There's nothing to lose, and vendors find time after time, as this general 'wisdom' that half price is a good deal circulates around foreign tourists, that they can easily end up with 2.5, 5, or 7.5 times what they would usually expect to get. Only in places which see few foreign faces, and if you can speak Mandarin yourself, is the vendor likely to give you a first price double or less what he'll accept. In tourist ghettos such as Beijing's Silk Market, a fake Timberland shirt will typically have a first asking price of Y180, but can be obtained for Y45 (and if you go to other clothing markets you can even find them labelled for that price, so you can go a little lower still). At Panjiayuan the Chinese are buying Yixing teapots for Y8 to Y10, but the first asking price to may be Y50. On other items a multiple of 15 (and going up) is common. On very expensive items (carpets, etc.) the multiple will not be so great, but the sum lost by the overhasty purchaser all the greater in size.
Never make the first offer. The first price spoken is a kind of marker which affects the outcome. It's a positioning statement, and a way of finding out just how dumb the other party is. The higher the first price, the better the chance that the final price will also be higher, too. Bartering is about knowledge and ignorance, and out-of-towners are always more ignorant of local prices (this applies equally to a Shanghainese visiting Beijing). In clannish China being an out-of-towner makes you an acceptable target for unfair practices of all kinds. Being visibly foreign marks you as an ideal mark--someone with both a bulging wallet and radical ignorance, unless you turn out to be someone from the cannier end of expatdom (expats rarely have any idea of real prices either--they live in a different world). Even long-term residents find they are asked twice the price for tomatoes at their nearest street stall. Asking a high price is also a way of finding out just how ignorant you are, and so how to manage negotiation to the final result.
So get the vendor to say a price first. He has nothing whatsoever to lose by putting this sky high and seeing what happens. He'll often strike lucky with the laissez faire attitude advocated above (and that's up to you) and make his profit for the day in a single transaction. If you look pained, surprised, knowing, or amused, and withdraw, he can immediately cut it in half to keep your attention, and if you are new to this you'll immediately think you're on the way to a good deal. You'll often see this happen, and some people are inclined to become angry: "Hey! He's trying to rip us off!" Well, yes and no. He's just trying to get the best financial result for himself, and you didn't have to put yourself in the position of negotiating with him, did you? This is how bargaining works. In any society the price of something is what someone is willing to pay. In this case foreign tourists, in their ignorance, have frequently demonstrated a willingness to pay half of whatever they've been asked, and so prices rise accordingly.
Your first offer should be made reluctantly, and at not more than 10% of his price. This is a situation which continues to change--if everyone comes to accept that paying 10% is about right (supposing things were that simple) then first asking prices will head yet higher still, and first offers should go down. Like the vendor, you can quickly head upwards if you really want the item. You also have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The lower your first offer, the better the chance that the final price will be something near reasonable. Your positioning statement is: "Hey! I may be shopping in a market for tourists, but I wasn't born yesterday." With a regretful smile, of course.
The vendor's price will then usually drop by a large margin. If his first was Y100 and yours Y10, he may come to Y80 or Y50. Your next offer should be Y11 or so. The fact that he is continuing the conversation at all shows that you shouldn't be heading higher in any hurry. And you should continue to go up in small increments as he comes down in larger ones. Walking away is always the way to discover if you've reached bottom or not. The result of all this is that you'll pay a little more than an out-of-town Chinese, but great deal less than the average foreign visitor--half, a third, a quarter... And with the right attitude you'll have lots of fun doing it.
Wherever there's a vendor of any one type of item, there are always many of them. The numbers almost always swell well beyond the capacity of the market to absorb their merchandise. In short, almost all markets, even those riddled with tourists, are buyers' markets. The odd sale to a 50%-er is enough to keep a stall going for a while, and regular, reasonable profit from others is always welcome. There's no need to be madly fixated on paying not a penny more than a Chinese would, but there's no point in giving money away (and there are charity cases in far greater need if you want to do that).
To get the best prices:
Never shop where your tour guide takes you, or at shops which take foreign credit cards
Avoid well-known tourist markets if you can, such as Beijing's Silk Market (which has almost no silk). Yes, there are lots of Chinese shopping there, too, but they know what they are doing, and you don't; and the vendors know they know, and know that you don't understand what prices are being discussed. There are always places where local people shop (see silk shop list mentioned earlier, for example). As in any other country, shopping away from the centre of town is a good idea. Ask the staff of your hotel where they actually shop (although this only works for everyday items such as clothes, shoes, suitcases, etc.)
Shop out of season. This is an option open mostly only to independent travellers, but those on organised tours with only a little free time should at least understand that a rainy day is better for shopping in markets--prices quickly tumble when customers are few. There's also a greater willingness to give you a reasonable price when there aren't lots of other people to overhear this happening. On a sunny day, in a tourist market with lots of tourists in a hurry, prices may simply stay several multiples of what they should be because there are enough people paying those prices to make it not worth spending time with those who want to bargain harder
Never buy near the entrance to a market, or at the first stall of any particular kind that you come across. Always go deeper in, and never (or rarely) buy from the first stall where you start discussing prices. Use your willingness to walk away to educate yourself by getting the lowest price you can from a vendor, encouraging you to make yet lower bids to the next one you speak to
Unless you are an expert, or have spent a great deal of time getting to know quality and price internationally, never buy expensive items in China. There are endless fakes of absolutely everything, and you cannot get a good price on anything with an international market value, unless that thing is actually a fake. Strike carpets, jewellery, gems, and all antiques off your shopping list.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 8th, 2004, 05:42 PM
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Wow Peter your post on bargaining was so interesting and helpful! I'm an expat living in Beijing and I agree with many of your observations. I always feel my heart race and face get hot the minute I enter the market -- and I speak Chinese!
In response to the shopping query-- I think it depends on what you're looking for. I think the Pearl Market has actually wonderful jewelry -- not for high-quality pieces, but for those fun, pretty, colorful necklaces that can add such charm to an otherwise plain outfit. I've purchased very pretty necklaces of jade, garnet, peridot, etc. that are far less expensive than anything found in the states/canada. For clothes I definitely recommend the Ritan Office Building on Guang Hua Lu (near the British and American Embassies). They have some great knock-offs and/or seconds of ladies' clothing (I've seen Diane von Furstenberg, Catherine Malandrino to name a few) as well as terrific cashmere. Enjoy your time in Beijing -- it's a wonderful city!
In response to the shopping query-- I think it depends on what you're looking for. I think the Pearl Market has actually wonderful jewelry -- not for high-quality pieces, but for those fun, pretty, colorful necklaces that can add such charm to an otherwise plain outfit. I've purchased very pretty necklaces of jade, garnet, peridot, etc. that are far less expensive than anything found in the states/canada. For clothes I definitely recommend the Ritan Office Building on Guang Hua Lu (near the British and American Embassies). They have some great knock-offs and/or seconds of ladies' clothing (I've seen Diane von Furstenberg, Catherine Malandrino to name a few) as well as terrific cashmere. Enjoy your time in Beijing -- it's a wonderful city!
Jan 9th, 2004, 10:06 AM
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I'll just add a couple of further caveats to the bargaining guide then:
Generally speaking, the price of something (to foreigners) prices directly in proportion to its proximity to diplomatic compounds, foreigner residential compouds, and clusters of five-star hotels. This is more true of the Jianguo Men/Ri Tan diplomatic area (the longest-standing) than of any other. Shop elsewhere if you can.
As soon as it is observed that foreigners get enthusiastic about something and are willing to pay a premium, fakes will appear. The greater the gap between the cost of making a fake and the price for which a real thing is sold the more rapidly this will happen. The production costs of designer label garments are very little different from those of high street brands, but the mark-up is huge. Furthermore, the easiest thing of all is to fake the label. Unless you happen to work in Count von Bad Mittagessen's workshop, and so are exceedingly well-informed, expect anything with his label on to be either a rough copy or just any old thing with his label on. It is possible to come across genuine garments which have been rejected at the quality control stage, and which have flaws which are unnoticeable, but in these cases the labels have been snipped out, and it's a case of trying to decipher the designer from the remnants. Such real rejects are more usually found around Wenzhou and Xiamen (cities on the southeast coast), for instance, where much of the rag trade manufacturing takes place.
Jade in China is almost always either fake or not Chinese. In places visited by tourists it's fake. The name 'jade' is given to both nephrite and jadeite, neither of which was ever very plentiful in China, and supplies mainly came from Khotan in southern Xinjiang (re-acquired by the Qing dynasty in the 19th century) and Burma. Today, if you can find the real material, it often comes from deposits overseas, such as Canada's British Columbia, and in New Zealand, where Chinese companies have subsidiaries, mining agreements with Maori, and so on. Unsurprisingly then, this jade is unlikely to be cheaper than it would be at home, but in fact any precious or semi-precious stone with an internationally recognized value is very unlikely indeed to be available in China at lower prices, as common sense would suggest. If it's cheap, it's fake. If you like it, it doesn't matter.
In short, anything that can be faked, will be faked, and the more expensive the real thing usually is, the more likely that it will be faked. Scepticism should be set to absolute maximum.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Generally speaking, the price of something (to foreigners) prices directly in proportion to its proximity to diplomatic compounds, foreigner residential compouds, and clusters of five-star hotels. This is more true of the Jianguo Men/Ri Tan diplomatic area (the longest-standing) than of any other. Shop elsewhere if you can.
As soon as it is observed that foreigners get enthusiastic about something and are willing to pay a premium, fakes will appear. The greater the gap between the cost of making a fake and the price for which a real thing is sold the more rapidly this will happen. The production costs of designer label garments are very little different from those of high street brands, but the mark-up is huge. Furthermore, the easiest thing of all is to fake the label. Unless you happen to work in Count von Bad Mittagessen's workshop, and so are exceedingly well-informed, expect anything with his label on to be either a rough copy or just any old thing with his label on. It is possible to come across genuine garments which have been rejected at the quality control stage, and which have flaws which are unnoticeable, but in these cases the labels have been snipped out, and it's a case of trying to decipher the designer from the remnants. Such real rejects are more usually found around Wenzhou and Xiamen (cities on the southeast coast), for instance, where much of the rag trade manufacturing takes place.
Jade in China is almost always either fake or not Chinese. In places visited by tourists it's fake. The name 'jade' is given to both nephrite and jadeite, neither of which was ever very plentiful in China, and supplies mainly came from Khotan in southern Xinjiang (re-acquired by the Qing dynasty in the 19th century) and Burma. Today, if you can find the real material, it often comes from deposits overseas, such as Canada's British Columbia, and in New Zealand, where Chinese companies have subsidiaries, mining agreements with Maori, and so on. Unsurprisingly then, this jade is unlikely to be cheaper than it would be at home, but in fact any precious or semi-precious stone with an internationally recognized value is very unlikely indeed to be available in China at lower prices, as common sense would suggest. If it's cheap, it's fake. If you like it, it doesn't matter.
In short, anything that can be faked, will be faked, and the more expensive the real thing usually is, the more likely that it will be faked. Scepticism should be set to absolute maximum.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 9th, 2004, 08:18 PM
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The fakes are part of the fun in China. I get a real kick out of watching the vendors respond to the "is this a real <insert brand name here>" question.
If the answer is any variation of "it's new and improved version" at least they are admitting its a knock off.
If the answer is any variation of "it's new and improved version" at least they are admitting its a knock off.
Jan 10th, 2004, 03:21 PM
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I agree that Beijing does not offer great shopping but I had a great time with the local vendors and the silk market. And yes I agree the silk market has no silk just knock off merchandise. But we bought a lined coat (North Face, not real) for $10.00 (I'm sure I paid way too much but I liked the coat and ten US to me was not bad). Back in California we have gotten lots of compliments and it is waering very well (wearing it a lot) considering that it is likely not well made. The polo shirts are not wearing well at all so I would not recommend buying those even though they are very inexpensive. ($2.00 a shirt) The vendors are very pushy. I had a price in mind that I was willing to pay knowing that the merchandise is not real and low quality. I would not go above that price and walk away if the vendor would not agree. BE CAREFUL - try on the clothes, a large is not always a large. Do not let go of the item once you have tried it on and want it. Some vendors will switch the shirt and you will not be aware. I know this may not sound like fun but we had a good time there. You just have to know what you are getting yourself in for.
We also purchased tea about two blocks off the beaten path. That was a lot of fun since we did not speak the language but we bought a couple of teas from a local vendor. The tea is great.
Chopsticks were another purchase and made great gifts to people back in the states.
Local vendors that sell junk but some of the stuff make great gifts for people back at the office. Stamps of Mao, I'm sure they were fake but my co-worker really enjoyed the stamps I brought her back (she likes stamps to begin with).
Major word of caution in Beijing is you will be approached by young people who are nice, start a conversation, but what they want to do is show you art work that is for sale. My husband and I started to say funny lines back to them but getting the point across that we were not interested.
Enjoy the trip.
Rene
We also purchased tea about two blocks off the beaten path. That was a lot of fun since we did not speak the language but we bought a couple of teas from a local vendor. The tea is great.
Chopsticks were another purchase and made great gifts to people back in the states.
Local vendors that sell junk but some of the stuff make great gifts for people back at the office. Stamps of Mao, I'm sure they were fake but my co-worker really enjoyed the stamps I brought her back (she likes stamps to begin with).
Major word of caution in Beijing is you will be approached by young people who are nice, start a conversation, but what they want to do is show you art work that is for sale. My husband and I started to say funny lines back to them but getting the point across that we were not interested.
Enjoy the trip.
Rene
Feb 1st, 2005, 03:37 AM
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Just an FYI... the silk market is gone. There is a huge 4 or 5 story mall type buidling around the corner where many of the stalls will go. I have never liked the silk market...not since the early 90's where it was a pivotal place for changing money on the black market. Anyway, it is gone, and not missed by those who like good baragins and a decent atmosphere.
Lido market (both halves) are also gone now, but many vendors have gone to a new buidling right around the corner. Not many people have found its rebirth and prices are decent. Ya Xiu (ya SHOW) is now inundated with tour buses and no longer good for bargains.
Coming in Feb is really the issue here. Chinese new Year is Feb 9th. Many things will be shut for the week surrounding it. If you are coming before then, beware of pickpockets as it is "high season" for petty theft with many people pressured to being gifts and cash back to their hometowns. Offical work days resume Feb 16, so things will be back to normal by then.
And prepare.. it is freezing here now.
Lido market (both halves) are also gone now, but many vendors have gone to a new buidling right around the corner. Not many people have found its rebirth and prices are decent. Ya Xiu (ya SHOW) is now inundated with tour buses and no longer good for bargains.
Coming in Feb is really the issue here. Chinese new Year is Feb 9th. Many things will be shut for the week surrounding it. If you are coming before then, beware of pickpockets as it is "high season" for petty theft with many people pressured to being gifts and cash back to their hometowns. Offical work days resume Feb 16, so things will be back to normal by then.
And prepare.. it is freezing here now.
Jul 8th, 2005, 10:38 AM
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This reply is actually a request for updates on the shopping scene (pointed out by last post of BCHEN. I've been to all the places mentioned. The old Lido market, and the older Russian market that used to be in the 3 blue hangers (torn down in 2003) were great places to shop. Ya Xiu has some things but overcrowded and pricey. Pearl market, weekend market, Alien (?) Market, been there. Anyone have any NEW places that have sprung up in the last six months. What happened to all the displaced vendors?
Jul 25th, 2005, 12:01 PM
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Renebutta, you did extremely well! I paid $15 for a pretty good North Face jacket and I thought I got a good deal! And I paid $5 for a Tommy polo shirt, very good quality but turned out to be too small even though it was a medium (I usually wear xs). So do ask to try on if possible.
When trying to reduce the price, the vendors always acted like I was robbing them though...made me feel horrible sometimes. It was a lot of fun but exausting after an hr or so. My recommendation is try to find as many things from the same place as possible, decide if you really want to buy them, then bargain hard. This will save some time. My mistake was to go from one stall to the other and buying just one purse from each, etc.
When trying to reduce the price, the vendors always acted like I was robbing them though...made me feel horrible sometimes. It was a lot of fun but exausting after an hr or so. My recommendation is try to find as many things from the same place as possible, decide if you really want to buy them, then bargain hard. This will save some time. My mistake was to go from one stall to the other and buying just one purse from each, etc.
