laciclimb

Hi all,

We are planning a 3 week holiday in China with my girlfriend, between 21st of July and 11th of August. It will be our first trip, however, I will get a slight feel of China when I will be working 2 weeks, just before our holiday, nearby Shanghai, in Jiang Yin. Below our first idea of what we could see/do. Any suggestions, corrections and advice would be much appreciated.

Itinerary 3 weeks:

Day 1: arrival Shanghai, take night train to Beijing

Beijing

Day 2: Arrival/Hostel, Tiananmen Square, Jingshan Park, Red theater Kung Fu Show

Day 3: Mutianyu Great Wall, Ming Tomb, Birds Nest, Water Cube

Day 4: Summer Palace, Hutong, Peking Duck dinner

Day 5: Lama temple, Beihai Park, Temple of Heaven, night train to Pingyao

Pingyao

Day 6: Rishengchang Bank, Wang Family residence, Shuanglin temple, City wall, night train to Xi’an

Xi’an

Day 7: Arrival/Hostel, City wall, Bell tower, Big goose pagoda, Tang Dynasty show

Day 8: Terra Cotta Army, Huaging hot spring, late night plane to Chengdu

Chengdu

Day 8 late night: Arrival/Hostel

Day 9: Pandas, Green Ram temple, Remnin Park, Hot Pot dinner

Day 10: Le Shan Buddha, Mt. Emei base (sleep there)

Day 11: Mt. Emei summit, sleep in Chengdu

Day 12: Early morning train to Chongqing

Chongqing

Day 12: Arrival/Hostel, Laitan ancient town, Chongqing city/Erling park

Day 13: Dazu rock carvings, plane to Huangshan

Huangshan

Day 13: Arrival/Hostel, spend time in the city, if any left

Day 14: Yellow Mountain, sleep there

Day 15: Hongcun and Xidi, bus to Hangzhou

Hangzhou

Day 15: Arrival/Hostel

Day 16: West Lake, Tiger Spring, Dragon well

Day 17: Yellow Dragon cave, walk around in the city, late night train to Shanghai

Shanghai

Day 17: Arrival/Hostel

Day 18-19-20: Explore the city, shopping before departure, relax after the long trip, flight home

The part between Chongqing and Huangshan is a bit tricky with travel, we were initially planning to go to Zhiangjiaje, but is either a lost day for travel, or expensive flight. So the last part is not best planned yet. Please feel free to suggest!

Thank you! Gr. Laszlo

thursdaysd

Looks pretty good. Don't skip the Mosque and the Muslim quarter (food) and the Taoist temple while you're in Xi'an.

kja

Day 6 sounds like it might be too much -- I could be wrong, but I think it would be VERY hard to see all those places in a single day. The Wang Family Courtyard alone can take the better part of a day.... You might consider your options for adding a day to the area.

I agree with thursdaysd about those gems in Xi'an!

Also, do I understand correctly that you plan on skipping the Forbidden City in Beijing? I thought it magnificent and spent the better part of a day there. I'm not sure what I would skip to make space for it... maybe one of your days in Shanghai?

laciclimb

Hi, and thanks for the tips. I have omitted to type in Forbidden City, we will visit on day 2, right after Tiananmen square. Muslim quarter is planned in on day 7, and in PingYao, instead of taking the night train from Beijing, we will take the fast train, and sleep a night in Pingyao. Wang family courtyard we will exchange with another one, that is in the city, and needs no long approach. My biggest issu is the last part of the trip, from Chengdu/Chongqing to Huangshan...not very handy. And the last days in Shanghai, we plan also on taking a day tour to Suzhou, and another to Tongli. Basically some small changes can come, if we figure that some things we will not make, but my biggest stress for the moment is arranging the transportation, knowing that a lot needs to be reserved ahead of time.

thursdaysd

No need to reserve trains until you get there.

JPDeM

No need to reserve trains until you get there?
Bad advice. Most of these trains are already sold out. Imagine one month from now.
Have a look here www.china-diy-travel, check Pingyao to Xian on August 1 for example.

thursdaysd

There was a recent post by temppeternh pointing out that you don't need to book ahead, and will pay a considerable premium to do so. I don't have time to look for it. It's not like the OP is going over National Day.

laciclimb

I was actually considering flying from Xi'an to Jiuzhaigou, sleep there and second day visit Huanglong, then take the bus to Chengdu. After 3 days in Chengdu, fly directly to Huangshan, skip Chongqing completely. What do you think?

thursdaysd

I wouldn't have a problem with skipping Chongqing - you have pretty busy itinerary without it.

JPDeM

Then temppeternh was also giving bad advice. Trains sell out quickly in the summer. This is common knowlwdge and easy to check. Not as bad as the National holiday where they sell out in 30 seconds. If you are clueless about a topic then you should refrain from giving advice. This does not serve others well.
OP should book transportation before booking accommodation as he may find out later that he can't get there. Lots of reports in previous summers of people being stranded in Pingyao.

kja

"Wang family courtyard we will exchange with another one, that is in the city, and needs no long approach"

That could solve the problem, but I must admit that I thought the Wang Family Courtyard absolutely fascinating and well worth the time it took to get there. And I don't think there is anything comparable in Pingyao itself -- the courtyard houses there are all quite small as I recall, just one or two courtyards. That isn't to say they aren't worth seeing -- I enjoyed visiting a few and was fascinated by the differences between them. Just letting you know that you probably would be swapping for something very different.

If you've decided to spend a night in Pingyao, you may actually be able to see the Wang Family Courtyard -- but of course, that depends on how your timing works out and what else you choose to see.

BTW, I'm not sure where you have found a night to add to Pingyao -- your plan didn't seem to me to leave any spare moments in either Beijing or Xi'an. I could be wrong, or maybe I've misunderstood....

laciclimb

Hi KJA, I was initially planning to take the night train from Beijing to Pingyao, but I changed that to a faster train leaving Beijing at 3:30pm, that will arrive in Pingyao in the vening, so we would sleep there. The issue is that the only thing I found decent leaving Pingyao to Xian is leaving at 4:30pm, so we will not have very much time to spend in Pingyao...we have to keep it in the city...

kja

In that case, I don't think you have enough time for the activities you plan on day 5 before catching the train. You might consider visiting Badaling instead of Mutianyu (and skip the Ming Tombs). You can combine Badaling with the Lama Temple.

laciclimb

A fellow traveler from another forum suggested the following update to my trip, which we decided to follow (logistics-wise):
"Your original plan doesn't work because you have too much crammed into certain spots, some logistics problems, and some of the ticketing to make it happen is sold out. If you decide quickly and move ASAP, you can still salvage and enhance this trip. Train ticketing is almost sold out on some routes. Chongqing/Dazu need to be jettisoned if you want to do the Huangshan/Hongcun part.
Day 1 (7/21)--Arrive Shanghai and stay there for the night.
Day 2 (7/22)--Shanghai during the day, and night D train to Beijing. I'd do the D314--tickets have not been released yet but are about to be, so get your order in with an agent.
Days 3-4-5-6 (7/23-7/26)--Beijing, daily details tbd. Late afternoon of the 26th, the only available ticket is the K603 in soft sleeper, and very few available. Move FAST NOW.
Day 7 (7/27)--Pingyao and spend night there. Overnights to Xi'an sold out and never book two back-to-back nights on sleeper trains.
Day 8 (7/28)--Morning fast train D2531 Pingyao to Xi'an. Only train left, and only in 2nd class. Move FAST NOW to buy. Afternoon and overnight in Xi'an.
Day 9 (7/29)--Xi'an all day and overnight.
Day 10 (7/30)--Morning flight Xi'an to Jiuzhai Airport, try to get an 08:00-ish one so you don't have to get up ungodly early. This won't be cheap but it's the only way to make this work. Late morning and part of afternoon in Huanglong (which only takes about 5 hours to do), should be able to get the 15:00-ish bus HL to Jiuzhaigou/Pengfeng Village area for overnight.
Day 11(8/1) --Jiuzhaigou Park doing a one-day speed plan and another overnight.
Day 12 (8/2)--All-day bus to Chengdu and overnight there. Buy bus ticket when you first get to JZG on the 10th.
Days 13-14 (8/3, 8/4)--Leshan and Emei Shan, ending up back in Chengdu on the night of the 4th. I'd personally skip Emei Shan and do other stuff in the Chengdu area, but it's up to you.
Day 15 (8/5)--Pandas in morning, other Chengdu city stuff. Evening flight CTU-TXN (Huangshan)--can probably wait until first week of July to see if prices come down on this flight. I'd just stay in Huangshan City that night and get an early start the next morning.
Day 16 (8/6)--Mount Huangshan. Ideal would be to spend overnight at the summit but on an August Friday, may be very tough to get a room or dorm bed now. Let's assume you can.
Day 17 (8/7)--Morning head down mountain, midday over to Hongcun and overnight there. Might want to stick in nearby Mukeng bamboo village before heading into Hongcun.
Day 18 (8/8)--Morning in Xidi then return to Huangshan City for early/mid afternoon bus to Hangzhou; overnight there.
Day 19 (8/9)--Hangzhou and overnight. You don't need more time than this here.
Day 20--(8/10)--morning at a water town like Wuzhen. Afternoon bullet train to Shanghai and rest of day/overnight there. Plenty of train/transport options, don't worry about this one right now.
Day 21 (8/11)--Shanghai until departure.
Start with the critical train tickets. Use agents www.travelchinaguide.com or www.china-diy-travel.com and pay their commissions. Then do the internal flight bookings on www.elong.net or www.ctrip.com. Then work on accommodations prioritizing the Jiuzhaigou and Huangshan bookings first, where there are limited options. If you can't get a Huangshan summit booking, you'll need to stay in Tangkou village at the base and make Huangshan a daytrip with no sunset/sunrise."
What do you guys think?
I am at the moment in China for business until 5th of August. I have bought train tickets directly without agent for the 26th of July, from Beijing to Pingyao, and for the 28th, from Pingyao to Xian. ( was about 40USD cheaper in total, not a huge saving, but felt better hands on than via internet agent, who I am not sure about). For the 22nd from Shanghai to Beijing, since they are not released yet, I will buy them just before my flight home, on the 5th. Plane tickets and the two critical accomodations, Jiuzhaigou and Huangshan mountain, I will buy/reserve this week.Do you have any other suggestions, things I should do/reserve/plan while I am still here in China, with the help of a Chinese speaking colleague, in order to have a smooth holiday end of July? Whatever you can think of that it would definitely be better to be arranged while in China. Thanks a lot! Greetings!

temppeternh

> If you are clueless about a topic then you should refrain from giving advice.

For sheer hubris this really takes the biscuit. This from someone who denies the existence of the pollution in Beijing, avises people to shop at the 'Pearl Market', pastes in material from Chinese websites unchecked and of which he has no personal knowledge, similarly pastes in incorrect information unchecked on acquiring China visas in Hong Kong, advises people to use middlemen to buy Yangzi River tickets, gives flight transit information that's entirely out of date, and is in general willing to post misleading and innaccurate non-information on just about anything about which he knows absolutely nothing.

On these grounds it's not just 'refraining from giving advice' that's necessary, but immediate resignation from the site altogether.

Meanwhile, the OP is demonstrating the falsity of the claim made, unsurprisingly, by successfully buying his own tickets. Good for him.

kvchina

Per two posts above: Looks like a pretty solid plan to me, gets most of what you originally wanted in there and is efficient. You are lucky to have a Chinese colleague that can book tickets on your behalf, directly on the official train website. Most foreigners living outside China don't have that advantage since they don't have the requisite Chinese bank card (even if they are willing to engage the Chinese language website), and therefore need to pay an agent commission to secure likely-to-sell-out tickets. I think it was pretty clear in the post which ones those were, and which could wait until you got to China. BTW, the agents given in the post above are very reputable. You are traveling at an extremely busy time of year and it is very true that train tickets on many routes do sell out.

temppeternh

> BTW, the agents given in the post above are very reputable.

There is no such thing as a 'reputable' Chinese travel agent. Those with on-line English-language foreigner-targeting services typically have tremendous mark-ups. Can be 70%.

Train tickets are available in every city at agents all over town with terminals on the railway system, and with a fixed commission of ¥5 per ticket. Or ask the hotel to help: ¥20 to ¥30 commission and all they do is walk round the corner to the ¥5 agent. Only those who absolutely must be on a certain train and no other and who despite being independent travellers are contraining themselves with a micro-managed schedule are ever likely to face difficulties for most routes for most of the year. There's typically an assortment of trains daily, options to take slightly longer routes with changes, long-distrance bus alternatives in some cases, and flights galore. The chances of not actually reaching a destination on the day required are slight. But a little flexibility is best.

kvchina

@temppeternh:

You are increasingly out of touch with what's going on in China and it's clear that despite your past fame in guidebooks and dispensing advice as an Old China Hand, you really haven't spent a lot of time there in recent years and the gap is showing, at least it's apparent to other experienced China travelers. Your advice on certain subjects can be shockingly misleading. A sad comedown from the quality information you once purveyed. A perusal of relatively recent postings has you missing the mark about 40-50% of the time. On this forum, you attempt to "rule the roost" which is why most of the time, many otherwise knowledgeable China travelers don't even bother posting here, they just don't want to deal with your inevitable chiming in about how stupid and clueless they are, etc etc. I'm sure I'll get a follow on tirade from you about what an idiot I am....doesn't bother me. I rarely appear on this forum anyway and it's not a particularly active nor good travel forum for China specifics. You are part of the reason most competent China travelers who could give advice, stay far away from fodors.

Beyond that, yes, there are reputable Chinese agents and there are sometimes reasons for those without internal contacts to use them. Many people do have tight schedules and "flexibility" is but an illusion. They NEED to be on certain trains to make their schedules work. This OP happens to be one of them. For instance, travelchinaguide charges a commission of RMB 30 per ticket, hardly an issue added to the price of a critical sleeper, even for budget travelers. And temppeter, many hotels in China now refuse to deal with getting train tickets anymore. Please try to keep up, it's 2015.

No, there aren't necessarily an assortment of daily trains, and at certain times of year such as when this OP is going to China, they can and do get booked out well in advance, now that the 60-day booking period applies to most trains. Since unneeded train tickets are refundable within certain parameters, it's better to have a train ticket you don't need and refund it for a small penalty fee, rather than need a train ticket and can't get one. Planes and buses are not always viable Plan B's for many routes.

One last thing to temppeter to ward off the inevitable accusations that will come my way: I am not Chinese and am not (nor ever have been) in the travel industry.

temppeternh

Inaccurate, ad hominem, full of straw men, and overall short on logic. Not worth further reply.

kja

@ kvchina – I read your most recent comment with confused interest. You make several claims about the currency of temppetern_h’s knowledge and about the reactions of “other experienced China travelers” and “otherwise knowledgeable China travelers,” but I see no actual evidence for those assertions. Perhaps you would be kind enough to share that evidence? And since you are “not Chinese and am not (nor ever have been) in the travel industry,” (and I am certainly not questioning that assertion!), then perhaps you could let us know the basis of your expertise in these matters?

From what I can tell, the OP’s OP did not assert that he HAD to travel at particular times; rather, it seems that he posted to ask advice on his itinerary – which I understood to mean that he was open to changing the number of days / nights he was allocating to specific locations. The OP may have come to believe that he HAD to make plans NOW, but I’m confused by your claim that the he actually HAD to travel at SPECIFIC times. And since temppetern_h explicitly restricted his comments to those who have at least some flexibility, I am not sure how your criticism is valid….

Maybe I’m missing something, but as someone who hopes to visit China again, I try to keep up with the issues....