ritagonc

Hi everybody I'm planning a 3 months trip in SEA/SEChina and Tibet starting on March' 09, but I'm a bit undecided and don't know what to choose..can you please help me?Specially KATHIE - u seem to know a lot about this area..

So, I plan to fly from MACAU (China) to BALI and then start heading up to THAI,LAOS,CAMBODIA,VIETNAM, then going to the whole YUNNAN/GUILLIN area and then finishing it in LHASA before heading back to Macau. And.. I plan to do this without using long bus trips (trauma..)- I'm flying and using trains whenever i can...

So first off, Bali & lompok, how long should i stay there? i'm planning at least 2 weeks, since I've been to Thailand before and hope to see something diferent in Bali...will I?What do you guys think, is it that different?
I'm flying straight from Jakarta to Kuala Lumpur to get to Kotarutao in Tailand(has anyone been there, is it that nice?Is this the best way of getting there?)Then I head to Koh Tao (for the diving) and then straight to Bangkok, where I will be flying to somewhere..like siem reap..but I don't know if it is the best idea..any suggestions?

Just to give u guys and idea of what I like, I want to see nice landscape, temples,towns with markets...not too keen on rice paddies or visiting poor villages, I did that when i was younger and had my fill...but if I only want to see them once,where should I see them?in vietnam right?

Anyone tried to fly thru it all like I'm doing? Let me know,thanks!!!...

afterall

You might have a problem getting around in Laos and Cambodia as there are no trains. And flights are limited. But then if you just want to do the well-trodden path that won't be a concern will it?

Tibet? Sounds like you'll be flying into Llasa and taking the train to Beijing? You won't see much of Tibet.

Your trip sounds wonderful on paper and if you have loads of money you can probably make it work for you.

Also sounds like you need to do a bit more research as to what is possible.

Best tip - get really familiar with the geography. Know where places are in relation to each other.

thursdaysd

As afterall says, there's a severe shortage of trains in parts of SEA - notably Laos and Cambodia. What have you got against buses? The long distance buses in Malaysia are great - cheap, comfortable and on time - the roads there are good - and they go to places the trains don't. Although I usually prefer trains to buses I happily rode buses instead in Malaysia. In China, too, there are places you can only reach by bus. And the only place you'll see in Tibet will be Lhasa.

Kathie

This is quite an ambitious plan. As you start to put it together you'll no doubt need to make some alterations. As Thursdays says, you are going some places that don't have trains, so you'll have to make some compromises.

Pause and think about what you want to do/see/experience on this trip. What are your interests? What do you enjoy doing? There are many ways to do such a trip, and the best way fro you depends on you, your likes and dislikes, etc.

Asia lends itself best to slow travel. So unless you were aiming to spend as much time as possible on trains, you'll likely need to cut some destinations so you can really experience the others.

If it were me (and it isn't), I'd opt to spend three months in Indonesia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia. You could add a little of Vietnam as well, but each new destination takes time away from the others. On the other hand, since you'd like to use trains, perhaps you'd prefer Vietnam over Laos and Cambodia. So you could do Bali and Lombok, Thailand and Vietnam. I think your plan for China and Tibet is too much for the amount of time you have.

Bali is entirely different culturally from Thailand. And Lombok is different from Bali. Indonesia itself is so diverse, you could spend your whole time there.

Tell us more about your interests, and we can be of more assistance.

thursdaysd

Now I think about it, I spent three months just seeing Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia - and could easily have spent longer. I agree with Kathie that trying to add China and Tibet to SEA is overdoing it for this amount of time. Is this your first trip to Asia? Where have you traveled before?

lcuy

And another vote for using buses in Malaysia. I absolutely refuse to take long distance buses in places like India or Mexico, but the ones in Malaysia are a dream. Clean, with plenty of stops at Immaculate rest stops, and the rhighways put our's road to shame. No pot holes, and lovely landscaping.

We went from KL to Penang by bus. We even had a movie and meals served.

The train from Singapore to KL was not nearly as nice, and I felt safer on the bus.

afterall

lcuy - what's wrong with the long distance buses in Mexico?

I thought they were brilliant.

India - well, again I had no problems except for the lack of quiet.

You must tell us why you hold that opinion.

ritagonc

Thank you everybody for giving me your valuable advices.. I know I still have to research a lot - i just wanted to see what people generally say first hand.

So from what I can see, it seems like a good idea to spend quite sometime in Bali/Lombok right Kathie?

And it also seems a good idea to fly Jakarta to Kuala Lumpur and then catch buses along the way to Thailand, to get to Kutarutao... thanks for the wise advice on the buses there Thursdays! I'm skipping Malaysia cuz i did a 1 month trip with my parents there already.
And my trauma with buses really was because of marroco...after 1 month of buses there i decided i prefer to pay more and not be cheated and hastled around anymore! Anyway, like you guys say, if I know my geography and plan ahead well, I won't get tricked right?

Afterall: I'm planing to fly from Kunming to Tibet, and there I will of course go around in buses, treck and etc..so yes i'm not insane, i know u can't see Tibet by plane! After Tibet, its plane back to Guangzhou or Hong Kong, to get home- Macau

Thursdays and Kathie:
Yes I know it's a bit too ambitious to do the china stretch, but the thing is that I've lived in china half of my life and never saw the Yunnan region and, since i'm coming up from Vietnam or Thai towards china anyway, it makes sense to do the dali/lijiang/guillin/yangshuo stretch before flying from kunming to Lhasa.. anyway China is a must in my trip, its decided! But yes maybe Lhasa is for another trip. I'm not exactly swimming in money like uncle scrooge..

So yes Kathie, u r right, i have to find a compromise and maybe giving up on tibet is a good idea. Vietnam is not really attracting me that much, it's my french boyfriend that wants to see Ho Chi Min, Hanoi and Halong Bay... if i just do this and go between by train it will be easygoing right Kathie?What else shouldn't I miss in Vietnam?Sapa?

Thailand i know it quite well (it will be my 10th time there...), so not much to ask you gentle people.

Kathie, you ask about my interests, what I want from this trip. Like I told you, I want scenery, I want street life, food, I want markets, temples... I'm not keen on koh pangan full moon party type of crowd, and I'm not into plans that are too square either, like group visits to some silly peasant village where we just go there to stare at poor people.So I basically want to romantically go in a relaxed pace, stay two days minimum in one place, stay a week in a place if i love it...I don't want to plan too much (my boyfriend HATES ppl that plan trips too much). And I'm a backpacker, used to cheap bungalows and resistant to camping, hiking, etc. I'm afraid that Bali will be a bit too posh/fancy for me... I'm wrong right Kathie?

One last concern before i bore you guys to death: friends have told me that the destruction of the wars in vietnam/cambodia are still very strong, and that u can still see a lot of crippled people, etc... I know I shouldn't pretend it didn't happen, but still, just like i would never go to Auschwitz, i have decided I will not go to the war museum in camboja... what's your opinion on this, and this subject in general?Are my friends exagerating?

Thank you everyone for your patience in answering my silly questions..

Best,Rita G.

Kathie

Rita, with the additional info you provided, I have some more ideas. As you mentioned, if you are willing to fly some legs, you can visit more places. Overland travel in SE Asia can be slow.

I do agree that Bali/Lombok is worth 2 weeks. There are plenty of nice, inexpensive places to stay on both islands, including homestays, which might interest you. Ther are very expensive places to stay on Bali, but those are by far the minority. I'd recommend you stay awy from Kuta on Bali as it's very crowded (more like the full moon party bunch). But there are plenty of places to stay both by a beach and inland near Ubud.

From there, you are flying to KL, then bus to Thailnd. You've chosen two beaches. I can't help you much with that part.

I don't know how much of Thailand you want to revisit. If you want a cruise on the Mekong, you can take one of the boats from northern Thailand to Luang Prabang. There is an expensive slow boat, the LuangSay, and there are at least two less expensive slow boats. There is also a fast boat which is NOT recommended. You might check Thorntree for more info on these river boat options.

Stay in Luang Prabang for a while, from there you might want to go to Vietianne. The bus ride is long, you could fly, or if you just want a short exposure to Laos, you could fly to Siem Reap or PP. From PP, people usually hire a taxi or take a bus to Siem Reap. Your choice - you can even choose not to visit PP.

It's your choice whether to visit the Killing Fields in Phonm Pehn or not. You will see people missing limbs in Cambodia. You will see enough to remind you of what happened so recently in Cambodia. There is no way to avoid it. But one of the wonders of Cambnodia is how the people more forward, build their lives and rebuild the country even with all of that trauma in living memory. There are flights from Siem Reap to Saigon.

Your plan to visit Saigon, then take the train north to Hanoi would work. Decide if you want a stop in central VN (Hue, HoiAn DaNang). Hanoi is a fascinating city. There are musuems devoted to the war in both cities. You won't see many people who are missing limbs in VN. Your French boyfriend may have feelings about one of the museums in Hanoi, The Museum of the History of the Revolution. This museum recounts the struggle for independence from the French and then from the Americans. It sounds like you want an overnight on a boat in Halong Bay. Sapa? Some people love it, some do not. Read some of the reports. One of our regular posters, Femi, did a wonderful report about her stay in Sapa, which she loved.

From there, you plan to go to China, the Yunnan region. I've not yet been there, so others can advise you.

I haven't added up all of the time for this trip. Do the math and see what fits or doesn't.

You are welcome to take alook at our photos, which cover part of the area you plan to visit, www.marlandc.com

Have a wonderful trip!

(and ask as many questions as you'd like)

thursdaysd

rita (are you in nc, maybe?) - if the only place you're visiting in Malaysia is KL I would either fly in and out or skip Malaysia altogether. I took buses because I was stopping off along the way, but I wouldn't go all the way to Thailand in one go by bus - I suppose I might by train - but if you take the train make quite sure you get reservations and don't wind up spending 24 hours in third class!!

My TRs for three months in SEA are at www.wilhelmswords.com/asia2002 (plus one including Kunming at the rtw section) and my Lombok pix at kwilhelm.smugmug.com/Travel/287618. Lombok is very laid back, I think there are different experiences you can have on Bali depending on where you go.

I did visit the Choeung Ek killing fields, and the Tuol Sleng prison. The experience was, of course, upsetting, although not as upsetting as visiting Auschwitz, possibly because I was with a group. But whether you visit is entirely up to you. As Kathie says, you can't miss the aftereffects of the violence in Cambodia, but the Cambodians are busy trying to get on with their lives in difficult circumstances.

Kathie

thursdays, as I understand Rita, she lives in Macau. She has to fly through KL when she comes out of Bali as she is flying Asia Air. But your point is good, she could fly from KL to a point in Thailand to get to her beach destinations.

lcuy

Mexico does have some nice long distance buses that go between big cities. The regular ones that go to smaller places are another story. I've done it twice..never again. Stories of several close friends have also reinforced my feelings.


The fatality rate on Indian buses is huge, not to mention my terror factor, the condition of the roads, the weather, and the traffic. Drug use by drivers is a huge problem, as well as the fact that they rarely have back up drivers, and fatigue is a big problem on the long distances.

So while you won't find me on buses there, I do highly recommend the buses in Malaysia.

ritagonc

Thank you Kathie and Thursdays, you guys have been wonderful.

And you're right, i can fly straight from KL to suratani or any other airport in the south of Thailand...silly me!

In KL, my boyfriend said last night that we should see the Petronas and i thought "why not"..any other nice thing to see in KL? I live next to HK so the whole asian metropolis thing is not new to me, but still, KL must have something nice to see..any advices?or nice restaurants maybe?

Kathie your plan seems just perfect.. now i just have to decide if I should do it in a clock or counter clock wise loop! Of course I want to see luangpragang, PP and siem reap, and wouldn't miss AngkorWat for the world...I checked out yr blog (thanks!) and saw you were in Sri Lanka as well, it's such a nice place isn't it?i loved it there..

In the North of TH, what else should I see besides Chiang mai and Chiang Rai?I've been mostly in the south in my previous trips, and was 8 years old the last time i went to the north!..

Thursdays thanks for posting the link to your pics, i'll check them out soon, specially the Kunming ones..

And thank you both for your thoughts on the war fields issue...

Hey, I'm getting a bit tired of the Khao San Road bunch in Bangkok, do you recomend any other cheap but well located places to stay?

Cheers!

Kathie

Several thoughts...

In Bangkok an inexpensive place away from KSR is Suk 11. Thursdays may have some more suggestions for you.

In the north of Thailand, you might consider places like Pai and Mae Hong Son instead of spening your time in CM/CR. You could take the train to CM, then bus (I know you are trying to avoid them, but Thai busses are pretty good). to either or both of those places. I'm not fond of CM, though many others are. From there to the Mekong to Luang Prabang via the river boat makes sense (if you do want the riverboat, that sort of dictates the order of places). Then either more places in Laos or on to Cambodia.

KL has some interesting architecture. It's good for a couple of days. I just don't find it as interesting as, say, Bangkok.

Yes, we loved Sri Lanka and do plan to return.

thursdaysd

I can't help a whole lot with BKK hotels - it's not one of my favorite cities, and any more I mostly just pass through. (I know, I know, heresy...) I've most often stayed at the Viengtai, which is KSR, but a bit more upmarket than some of the places. Last trip I stayed at the Menam Riverside (got a great deal online) which was comfortable and on the river. First trip I stayed at the Marriott, but although I know Bob loves it, I really did find it too far out. Last trip (I went through BKK several times that trip!) I also stayed at the Silom Village Inn because it was close to the Myanmar Embassy - my room was a bit dark but otherwise it seemed a good choice. However, I think I read that one of the guides fodorites like had opened a B&B - do you remember, Kathie?

I rather liked KL, but it was my first SEA city! I stayed in Chinatown, not the Golden Triangle, and really liked the atmosphere. There's a piece on KL at the link I posted, but quick summary - temples, cathedral, National Mosque, Bird Park, Islamic Arts Museum, Batu Caves, just wandering around. My only food note was for the Old China Cafe (www.oldchina.com.my) - try the sambal petai shrimp.

thursdaysd

Correction - KL was my first SEA city outside Thailand - I guess I really am not a BKK fan!

Kathie

Thursdays, it was Rat who opened a B&B in Bangkok. I'd forgotten about that. www.ratservice.com/index.aspx click on new b&b.

Rita, there aren't any reports yet from people staying there, but one of the regulars plans to stay there in November.

Thursdays, it's always interesting to me how differently people respond to different places. I'd forgotten you aren't a Bangkok person. I've been to KL several times, enjoyed myself, but didn't feel the excitment or resonance I get in Bangkok. Do you know, Thursdays, what appeals to you anout KL?

thursdaysd

Thanks Kathie - I thought I'd already bookmarked that site, but no. I'm looking forward to the report!

Well, although I liked KL I haven't been back yet! (Too many places, too little time.) I'm not sure I'd have liked it as much if I'd stayed in the Golden Triangle - I enjoyed the street energy in Chinatown. I also liked the diversity - Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim; Malay, Chinese, Indian and Peranakans. The center was a manageable size with good transport (although I did wind up walking a lot). I've decided I'm not really a BIG city person (aside from London) and BKK is just SO big and noisy and frenetic.

ritagonc

Thank you guys for your help. I'll get in touch with you later on, when I start narrowing down my trip plans and other doubts arise... And Thursdays Im sorry but i'm with Kathie - even with all the polution and confusion, BKK still rules!But the best Asian metropolis is by far HK...

Happy fodoring, and once again thank you for being so helpful and nice..

Kathie

Let us know how else we can help. Rita.

Thursdays, I think you are absolutely right - some of us are big city people and some are not.