treated poorly by the airlines if you use a travelsite?
Jun 24th, 2009, 04:49 AM
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
treated poorly by the airlines if you use a travelsite?
My DH just went on a business trip and used Travelocity b/c he needed to fly in on one airline and home on another. (He didn't try just booking one ways with the 2 airlines which might have given him the same result). In any event, when he arrived at the airport he was told he had to go to a special line and go through a few more hoops than regular United travelers. On the flight home, via continental, he was told the flight was oversold and he and his travel companions may not get on the flight (they were at the airport an hour early). We usually purchase flights directly through the airline, so this is something new for us-- is it always like this?
Jun 24th, 2009, 06:50 AM
#2
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's my guess....other's may know for sure. If his tickets were booked as two one-ways, this would trigger a response from TSA -- not the airline. A one-way ticket or a ticket that appears to have no return, is a red flag in TSA lingo.
On the return, my guess is that Travelocity didn't give your DH a seat assignment. While he may have had a ticket for the flight, if he had no seat assignment, he is more likely to get bumped on an oversold flight.
The airlines also prioritize those passengers who get bumped on oversold flights -- high status "Elite" passengers of Continental would have first priority on this flight, while those tickets purchased from CO would come next in order of the price paid, and third party purchases would come later in the list - again in order of price paid.
For future reference, just because he needed to travel on two airlines, doesn't mean he can't purchase the ticket from an airline source. They can book into other airlines, just like a travel agent or consolidator (Travelocity) can. I have done this many times.
On the return, my guess is that Travelocity didn't give your DH a seat assignment. While he may have had a ticket for the flight, if he had no seat assignment, he is more likely to get bumped on an oversold flight.
The airlines also prioritize those passengers who get bumped on oversold flights -- high status "Elite" passengers of Continental would have first priority on this flight, while those tickets purchased from CO would come next in order of the price paid, and third party purchases would come later in the list - again in order of price paid.
For future reference, just because he needed to travel on two airlines, doesn't mean he can't purchase the ticket from an airline source. They can book into other airlines, just like a travel agent or consolidator (Travelocity) can. I have done this many times.
Jun 24th, 2009, 07:34 AM
#4
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the theories that TC offers are probably about right. I doubt that where you bought your ticket has much influence on the way you are treated - at least it never has for me.
And, with regards to the nervousness about being bumped from the flight, I would ask if anyone here has ever been involuntarily bumped from their flight? The numbers from the DOT suggests it is pretty uncommon. There are usually enough people willing to take the voluntary compensation.
And, with regards to the nervousness about being bumped from the flight, I would ask if anyone here has ever been involuntarily bumped from their flight? The numbers from the DOT suggests it is pretty uncommon. There are usually enough people willing to take the voluntary compensation.
Jun 24th, 2009, 07:56 PM
#5
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,421
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is not unusual for anyone to book with a different airline in each direction as very often the times are just more convenient that way.
Whatever circumstances he encountered ahead of each flight probably have nothing to do with how the tickets were booked.
Checking in an hour early is not that early. Continental recommends 1-1/2 or 2 hours at most US airports. Whenever we fly Continental we check in online as they are always asking for volunteers due to overbooking.
Whatever circumstances he encountered ahead of each flight probably have nothing to do with how the tickets were booked.
Checking in an hour early is not that early. Continental recommends 1-1/2 or 2 hours at most US airports. Whenever we fly Continental we check in online as they are always asking for volunteers due to overbooking.
Jun 25th, 2009, 04:21 AM
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do think what TC said makes sense, but it does imply that if you buy from a discounter, you may be treated less well than if you buy directly from the carrier-- if you are considered someone to bump before someone who bought directly from the carrier, i consider that a negative.
I know, I told my DH he could have bought one ways directly for probably the same price.
On the outbound flight on united, when he tried to get his boarding pass, he was told that they didn't have his reservation. he was told to call a 1800 number. he called the number and at first he was put on hold indefinitely, called back and they said he couldn't get on the flight. he found an agent then who helped him get on the flight.
On the homebound flight he was told he might get bumped.
now, i wasnt there, so i don't have all the details, but his experience has made me have second thoughts about booking with a travel site.
I know, I told my DH he could have bought one ways directly for probably the same price.
On the outbound flight on united, when he tried to get his boarding pass, he was told that they didn't have his reservation. he was told to call a 1800 number. he called the number and at first he was put on hold indefinitely, called back and they said he couldn't get on the flight. he found an agent then who helped him get on the flight.
On the homebound flight he was told he might get bumped.
now, i wasnt there, so i don't have all the details, but his experience has made me have second thoughts about booking with a travel site.
Jun 25th, 2009, 06:09 AM
#8
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I don't think that the airlines care where you bought your ticket when deciding to bump you. I also doubt having a seat helps you much either. I would think it would come down to elite status and fare class, in the rare instances where it comes down to anything.
But again, why would you ever worry about this? Involuntary bumps are incredibly rare. In Q4 2008, for example, among the 19 major carriers the DOT reports on, there were a total of 15,723 people involuntarily denied boarding. During that same period, there were 142,969,151 separate boardings. In other words, you have a 0.01% chance of being involuntarily denied boarding. Moreover, of those 15,723 people, 1,405 of them violated rules about check-in times or the like - in other words, it was their fault.
Involuntary denied boarding is simply not a major problem and not something the average flier should ever bother to worry about.
But again, why would you ever worry about this? Involuntary bumps are incredibly rare. In Q4 2008, for example, among the 19 major carriers the DOT reports on, there were a total of 15,723 people involuntarily denied boarding. During that same period, there were 142,969,151 separate boardings. In other words, you have a 0.01% chance of being involuntarily denied boarding. Moreover, of those 15,723 people, 1,405 of them violated rules about check-in times or the like - in other words, it was their fault.
Involuntary denied boarding is simply not a major problem and not something the average flier should ever bother to worry about.
Jun 25th, 2009, 08:01 AM
#9
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>"I also doubt having a seat helps you much either.</i>
Travelgourmet; I worked in the travel industry for many years. The cardinal rule was never to go to the airport without a seat assignment/boarding pass. Once all the seats are gone, it will be those travelers who show up last to get a boarding pass that will be told, "sorry" on an oversold flight.
You may be right that it matters less "where" you bought your ticket than "how much you paid" for it. Elite status is absolutely a deciding factor, though. As an Elite member of NW/Delta I am "guaranteed" a seat on sold out flights. I have no idea how this works if I just show up at the last minute. I've never tried to use this particular perk, but it is listed as a part of the Elite benefits package.
From emcash's description of events, it sounds as though Travelocity simply screwed up DHs reservation and it never got through to the airline system. So in effect, he was trying to <u>buy</u> a ticket at the very last minute to get on flights that were already oversold. I say trying to buy, because even though Travelocity "sold" him a ticket and charged his credit card, it doesn't appear they finalized the deal with the product supplier -- United.
Travelgourmet; I worked in the travel industry for many years. The cardinal rule was never to go to the airport without a seat assignment/boarding pass. Once all the seats are gone, it will be those travelers who show up last to get a boarding pass that will be told, "sorry" on an oversold flight.
You may be right that it matters less "where" you bought your ticket than "how much you paid" for it. Elite status is absolutely a deciding factor, though. As an Elite member of NW/Delta I am "guaranteed" a seat on sold out flights. I have no idea how this works if I just show up at the last minute. I've never tried to use this particular perk, but it is listed as a part of the Elite benefits package.
From emcash's description of events, it sounds as though Travelocity simply screwed up DHs reservation and it never got through to the airline system. So in effect, he was trying to <u>buy</u> a ticket at the very last minute to get on flights that were already oversold. I say trying to buy, because even though Travelocity "sold" him a ticket and charged his credit card, it doesn't appear they finalized the deal with the product supplier -- United.
Jun 25th, 2009, 09:10 AM
#10
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>The cardinal rule was never to go to the airport without a seat assignment/<u>boarding pass</u></i>.
The last part was practically impossible until just few years ago.... The on line check in started just few years ago and in some cases it's still not possible for some flights.
<i>As an Elite member of NW/Delta I am "guaranteed" a seat on sold out flights. I have no idea how this works if I just show up at the last minute. I've never tried to use this particular perk, but it is listed as a part of the Elite benefits package.</i>,
I believe the perk is not that you are guaranteed a seat on it's own, you are guaranteed a ticket on a sold out flight and only then you're guaranteed a seat. Airlines oversell flights all the time, based on what their sophisticated software tells them to do. When average Joe can't buy a ticket anymore, even the most expensive one, that means the airline has oversold the flight by the maximum number they think they can get away with. That's when the elite John is different. He can still buy a ticket, the most expensive one of course. In most cases it doesn't cost the airline anything, in fact it improves their bottom line. It makes elite John feel special. With all the projected no shows, missed connections, etc., the airline will have no problem accommodating elite John. In a case when the airline has to bump somebody so they can accommodate elite John, it cost them just a fraction of what they just made from elite John. It's a win-win for the airline. Not a great perk IMHO for elite John unless he really, really has to be somewhere now and no flights are available. It doesn't happen all that often.
I agree with most here. There is no discrimination against TA bought tickets. In most cases it's just a chain of events and when somebody gets pushed aside, they come up with an explanation that seems plausible but usually is nothing more then one time deal.
How many people do you know that bought a full fare ticket from a TA and were discriminated against when a passenger with a cheap discounted fare brought from the airline showed up? I bet you never did.
The last part was practically impossible until just few years ago.... The on line check in started just few years ago and in some cases it's still not possible for some flights.
<i>As an Elite member of NW/Delta I am "guaranteed" a seat on sold out flights. I have no idea how this works if I just show up at the last minute. I've never tried to use this particular perk, but it is listed as a part of the Elite benefits package.</i>,
I believe the perk is not that you are guaranteed a seat on it's own, you are guaranteed a ticket on a sold out flight and only then you're guaranteed a seat. Airlines oversell flights all the time, based on what their sophisticated software tells them to do. When average Joe can't buy a ticket anymore, even the most expensive one, that means the airline has oversold the flight by the maximum number they think they can get away with. That's when the elite John is different. He can still buy a ticket, the most expensive one of course. In most cases it doesn't cost the airline anything, in fact it improves their bottom line. It makes elite John feel special. With all the projected no shows, missed connections, etc., the airline will have no problem accommodating elite John. In a case when the airline has to bump somebody so they can accommodate elite John, it cost them just a fraction of what they just made from elite John. It's a win-win for the airline. Not a great perk IMHO for elite John unless he really, really has to be somewhere now and no flights are available. It doesn't happen all that often.
I agree with most here. There is no discrimination against TA bought tickets. In most cases it's just a chain of events and when somebody gets pushed aside, they come up with an explanation that seems plausible but usually is nothing more then one time deal.
How many people do you know that bought a full fare ticket from a TA and were discriminated against when a passenger with a cheap discounted fare brought from the airline showed up? I bet you never did.
Jun 25th, 2009, 09:38 AM
#11
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel that what may appear to be second-class treatment by the airline is actually a foreseeable consequence of your having placed your self in the hands of a third party. If the third party fails to assure a leg of a flight, you are standing at the airline counter with only the airline to complain about. In reality, if there is a problem, you should contact the agency you purchased through and have them resolve the problem. Unfortunately it appears to me that these third party agencies don't put a lot of resources into immediate correction of problems, so while the great majority of their flights go well, when something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
As to who gets bumped, I suspect that varies with the policies of the individual airlines. I know I frequently am refused the option of picking seats when I buy online (I suspect it has something to do with the government having me on a list), but I can often go in later and select seats, and when I can't, they have always found us seats when we got to the airport (possibly as we are frequent flyers). I always hope to be bumped on the flight home, since I need the money and perks that come with it, but I haven't yet hit that jackpot.
As to who gets bumped, I suspect that varies with the policies of the individual airlines. I know I frequently am refused the option of picking seats when I buy online (I suspect it has something to do with the government having me on a list), but I can often go in later and select seats, and when I can't, they have always found us seats when we got to the airport (possibly as we are frequent flyers). I always hope to be bumped on the flight home, since I need the money and perks that come with it, but I haven't yet hit that jackpot.
Jun 25th, 2009, 12:04 PM
#12
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again, and I repeat myself, why worry about something with a 0.01% chance of happening? Whether it is seat assignments or where you bought your ticket or phases of the moon, the likelihood of you being involuntarily bumped off of your flight is so incredibly low that there is simply no reason to adjust your behavior one way or the other.
Even if you value not getting bumped at $10,000 (which is absurdly high), then you should only pay $1 extra to guarantee that you don't get bumped. And that is for a guarantee. Since buying from the airline website doesn't provide you with any sort of guarantee, then it isn't even worth $1.
There is no reason, whatsoever, to change your purchasing patterns because of a fear of getting bumped.
Even if you value not getting bumped at $10,000 (which is absurdly high), then you should only pay $1 extra to guarantee that you don't get bumped. And that is for a guarantee. Since buying from the airline website doesn't provide you with any sort of guarantee, then it isn't even worth $1.
There is no reason, whatsoever, to change your purchasing patterns because of a fear of getting bumped.
Jun 25th, 2009, 12:26 PM
#13
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,421
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We don't have the facts, but it sounds like problems with the Travelocity bookings.
Whenever booking through a third party, it's prudent to make sure you have an airline confirmation number (six alpha-numeric), whereupon you can go to the airline's website and ensure that everything is in order. You can also, usually, select your seat if it hasn't been assigned already.
Whenever booking through a third party, it's prudent to make sure you have an airline confirmation number (six alpha-numeric), whereupon you can go to the airline's website and ensure that everything is in order. You can also, usually, select your seat if it hasn't been assigned already.
Jun 25th, 2009, 12:28 PM
#14
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Travelgourmet. While this may be true for you and for the majority of people, it is not true for everyone. There are instances where changing ones purchasing habits <u>is</u> important and worth quite a bit more than a dollar.
I am a courier for the National Bone Marrow Donor Program. When I have bone marrow and I'm flying it from the donor center to the recipient, I have 12 hours to get it there and can not take even the slightest chance that I would get bumped. While the airlines do everything in their power to assit me, I have an obligation to take any and all steps that I can to assure that I am on the right flights at the right time to get to the right place. It can be (literally) a matter of life or death.
So I do "adjust my behavior" to guarantee that I will not be bumped. Just can't take that chance.
I am a courier for the National Bone Marrow Donor Program. When I have bone marrow and I'm flying it from the donor center to the recipient, I have 12 hours to get it there and can not take even the slightest chance that I would get bumped. While the airlines do everything in their power to assit me, I have an obligation to take any and all steps that I can to assure that I am on the right flights at the right time to get to the right place. It can be (literally) a matter of life or death.
So I do "adjust my behavior" to guarantee that I will not be bumped. Just can't take that chance.
Jun 25th, 2009, 12:57 PM
#15
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The point is that "adjust your bahavior" won't change anything. Buying a full fare ticket will, but if it's a choice of average Joe having a discounted ticket from Travelocity and avarage Jane having a ticket from airline.com then it becomes a game where the airline will "what seems to be a generous" offer to the first one that blinks. Only under some extraordinary circumstances will the airline bump somebody involuntarily. In all my years of flying with millions of BIS miles I have never seen an involuntary bump. Maybe couple dozens of voluntary bumps in which case people were almost falling all over each other to get a few hundred $ voucher.
Jun 25th, 2009, 01:56 PM
#16
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>There are instances where changing ones purchasing habits is important and worth quite a bit more than a dollar.</i>
This completely misconstrues my point, and shows a pretty startling disregard for basic math. Indeed, my $1 valuation assumes that one values not getting bumped at $10,000! The point is that you have a 0.01% chance of being involuntarily bumped. If you value not getting bumped at $10,000, then you should pay $1 extra to eliminate that chance ($10,000 x 0.01%). Make it $100,000 and you should spend an extra $10. And even then, it should only be spent if the expenditure actually eliminates the 0.01% chance of being bumped.
In actuality, you could likely spend an extra $100 and still not buy a fully refundable fare class, which would be as close as you could come to eliminating the 0.01% risk. This would imply that you value not being bumped at $1m. A more realistic price differential would put your valuation at perhaps $5m to $10m. No rational person values not getting bumped at $1m, much less $5m to $10m.
Indeed, even in your instance, I struggle to think what you do that would decrease your chances of getting bumped, beyond being a bone marrow courier. Do you buy fully refundable tickets? Because that will surely decrease your chances, and I stated as much. Buying your ticket on the airline's website, though, provides almost no protection.
It remains beyond silly for 99.99% of travelers to even begin to worry about being bumped, since the likelihood is so incredibly low.
This completely misconstrues my point, and shows a pretty startling disregard for basic math. Indeed, my $1 valuation assumes that one values not getting bumped at $10,000! The point is that you have a 0.01% chance of being involuntarily bumped. If you value not getting bumped at $10,000, then you should pay $1 extra to eliminate that chance ($10,000 x 0.01%). Make it $100,000 and you should spend an extra $10. And even then, it should only be spent if the expenditure actually eliminates the 0.01% chance of being bumped.
In actuality, you could likely spend an extra $100 and still not buy a fully refundable fare class, which would be as close as you could come to eliminating the 0.01% risk. This would imply that you value not being bumped at $1m. A more realistic price differential would put your valuation at perhaps $5m to $10m. No rational person values not getting bumped at $1m, much less $5m to $10m.
Indeed, even in your instance, I struggle to think what you do that would decrease your chances of getting bumped, beyond being a bone marrow courier. Do you buy fully refundable tickets? Because that will surely decrease your chances, and I stated as much. Buying your ticket on the airline's website, though, provides almost no protection.
It remains beyond silly for 99.99% of travelers to even begin to worry about being bumped, since the likelihood is so incredibly low.
Jun 25th, 2009, 04:21 PM
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the funny thing is, the rates on the travel sites are usually not discounted! DH did it for ease of use but i bet he would have gotten the same rate had he gone directly on each site.
Jun 26th, 2009, 02:08 PM
#20
travelocity did the deal: they bought the ticket and made the reservation. That is obvious because DH didn't have to buy a new ticket.
The trouble could have occurred simply because the first agent was less than fully competent. The second agent was able to work it out.
emcash, was the first line that DH got into one where they have kiosks that issue boarding passes?
I am wondering if the extra hoops were because he was not able to use the kiosk. In that case he would have to go to an agent at the counter. I don't think the roving agents who help with kiosk customers have access to the reservation system like the agents at the regular checkin counters.
The trouble could have occurred simply because the first agent was less than fully competent. The second agent was able to work it out.
emcash, was the first line that DH got into one where they have kiosks that issue boarding passes?
I am wondering if the extra hoops were because he was not able to use the kiosk. In that case he would have to go to an agent at the counter. I don't think the roving agents who help with kiosk customers have access to the reservation system like the agents at the regular checkin counters.
