Custom or rules re: overnight stopover? (Paging AAFF)
Nov 13th, 2004, 10:22 AM
#1
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Custom or rules re: overnight stopover? (Paging AAFF)
We are tinkering with options re: returning to US from Italy via AA's nonstop LGW-RDU, which departs at 1 pm. Problem: very few if any AA or codeshare flights from Italy go to LGW -- they all go to LHR. Some "official" itineraries provide connections of less than 4 hrs. between the two, which I absolutely do not trust. Otherwise, we'd have to get to LHR by 8 am and departures from Italy just don't allow that (and would be ugly hours, anyway).
I do know that sometimes you're allowed to arrive at the connecting city on the previous day before your final leg and spend the night in the connecting city, but I believe there are some rules (probably vary, airline to airline) about just how much time between flights is permissable. There is, for example, a midnight flight from Venice to Heathrow that AA offers as a legit connecting flight to the Gatwick departure at 1 pm, but we would really prefer to get into London much earlier than 1 am. How much earlier can we arrive and still have it considered a legit stopover? I remember "24 hrs." as some cutoff, but 24 hrs. before what?
And for the fingerwaggers, yes I can and will call AA myself to ask, but I thought this might be of interest to others and it will also help me figure out exactly what I'm asking before I have to go through phone-hold-connect purgatory.
I do know that sometimes you're allowed to arrive at the connecting city on the previous day before your final leg and spend the night in the connecting city, but I believe there are some rules (probably vary, airline to airline) about just how much time between flights is permissable. There is, for example, a midnight flight from Venice to Heathrow that AA offers as a legit connecting flight to the Gatwick departure at 1 pm, but we would really prefer to get into London much earlier than 1 am. How much earlier can we arrive and still have it considered a legit stopover? I remember "24 hrs." as some cutoff, but 24 hrs. before what?
And for the fingerwaggers, yes I can and will call AA myself to ask, but I thought this might be of interest to others and it will also help me figure out exactly what I'm asking before I have to go through phone-hold-connect purgatory.
Nov 13th, 2004, 10:56 AM
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I had an overnight layover in London where I arrived around 12 noon and my next plane left at 10 am the following day. 24 hours seems reasonable, but as you know, the airline would be your best source. If 4 hours is the legal connection time, that means it is do-able, but you are wise to understand that it doesn't always work.
Nov 13th, 2004, 02:40 PM
#4
On most international itineraries, including AA, 23:59 is the maximum "layover;" 24:00 is a "stopover." It's measured between the scheduled arrival time of Flight A and the scheduled departure time of Flight B.
LGW-LHR and v.v. still has a 3h "legal" connection time according to British Airways. This has been a fantasy for some years.
I think AA's only NS from LGW to RDU leaves at 1pm. Therefore plan your arrival at either LGW (via BA) or LHR for the previous afternoon or evening, and you ought to be okay.
Unless there's some good reason (maybe AAdvantage miles?) that you want to book an AA codeshare from Italy, I'd just use the "all <b>one</b>world carriers" option on aa.com for pricing. There are a couple of AA codeshares via LGW to Rome going, none returning that I can see, but it shouldn't make any $s/£s difference; it may be cheaper in fact, sometimes aa.com prices the codeshares higher than the AA+BA legs separately.
LGW-LHR and v.v. still has a 3h "legal" connection time according to British Airways. This has been a fantasy for some years.
I think AA's only NS from LGW to RDU leaves at 1pm. Therefore plan your arrival at either LGW (via BA) or LHR for the previous afternoon or evening, and you ought to be okay.
Unless there's some good reason (maybe AAdvantage miles?) that you want to book an AA codeshare from Italy, I'd just use the "all <b>one</b>world carriers" option on aa.com for pricing. There are a couple of AA codeshares via LGW to Rome going, none returning that I can see, but it shouldn't make any $s/£s difference; it may be cheaper in fact, sometimes aa.com prices the codeshares higher than the AA+BA legs separately.
Nov 13th, 2004, 04:43 PM
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I think <b>Gardyloo</b> is thinking award, not revenue tickets. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the official AA rule on revenue tickets is "if you have to overnight" it should be the last flight in, the first flight out (<i>up to 24 hours max</i
in order to get the "regular" connection fare. Does that mean that you can't get a good fare by choosing the flights you want? NO. What it does mean is that if AA gives you a good (equivalent) fare on the flights you want, take it and be happy, but if they don't then you have to make the decision whether the $$$ is worth the few extra hours.
Play with AA.com. First check "by fare" and see what it comes back with. Then do it "by schedule", do all 50 options and keep on picking different combos. If you want an overnight in London, then do the "multi-city" and specify the dates. You should try that with "fares" and "schedules" as well.
Always check Expedia and Orbitz and whatever as well. It takes some time but you may hit something favorable.
Currently I'm pricing a trip to Tokyo in January. It's coming back with ~$860 from TPA on AA metal. I also like Bangkok, so I priced that through Tokyo (I could upgrade for free to Tokyo on AA) and it's coming back ~$1200 with a JAL codeshare(NRT-BKK), but when I tried to "split" the itn and do few days at both places, TPA-BKK(few days)-NRT(few days)-TPA I get some ridiculous fare of $4000 although these are the exact same flights that I picked for the R/Ts <b>except</b> for one extra date for the BKK-NRT segment. I kept on plying with bunch of different dates and finally I found a "reasonable" fare of ~$1300 for what I wanted, unfortunately the dates are all wrong for me, but as you could see it's possible.
Sorry I couldn't give you some definite answers, but that's <b>air<i>fares</i></b>!
in order to get the "regular" connection fare. Does that mean that you can't get a good fare by choosing the flights you want? NO. What it does mean is that if AA gives you a good (equivalent) fare on the flights you want, take it and be happy, but if they don't then you have to make the decision whether the $$$ is worth the few extra hours. Play with AA.com. First check "by fare" and see what it comes back with. Then do it "by schedule", do all 50 options and keep on picking different combos. If you want an overnight in London, then do the "multi-city" and specify the dates. You should try that with "fares" and "schedules" as well.
Always check Expedia and Orbitz and whatever as well. It takes some time but you may hit something favorable.
Currently I'm pricing a trip to Tokyo in January. It's coming back with ~$860 from TPA on AA metal. I also like Bangkok, so I priced that through Tokyo (I could upgrade for free to Tokyo on AA) and it's coming back ~$1200 with a JAL codeshare(NRT-BKK), but when I tried to "split" the itn and do few days at both places, TPA-BKK(few days)-NRT(few days)-TPA I get some ridiculous fare of $4000 although these are the exact same flights that I picked for the R/Ts <b>except</b> for one extra date for the BKK-NRT segment. I kept on plying with bunch of different dates and finally I found a "reasonable" fare of ~$1300 for what I wanted, unfortunately the dates are all wrong for me, but as you could see it's possible.
Sorry I couldn't give you some definite answers, but that's <b>air<i>fares</i></b>!
Nov 13th, 2004, 11:19 PM
#6
My understanding is that "last in first out" and/or a "4 hour" rule is the case with domestic itineraries; however aa.com returns the same fares RDU-LGW-FCO-LGW-RDU, some with AA/BA codeshare numbers, others just BA, with a forced overnight at Gatwick, as it does for return flights via LHR (but with a US stop before getting to RDU, e.g. LHR-BOS-RDU or some such.) I can't get aa.com to return a <4 hr connection between Heathrow and Gatwick on the same day. Perhaps aa.com knows something that ba.com doesn't.
Nov 14th, 2004, 06:07 AM
#7
AAFF, you probably would get a better fare if you mileage runners would go to KIX instead of NRT (which was your original plan, I think).
Cassandra, et al, I am no expert but am trying to get an understanding of fare rules. Below are some clues that I've found. Hope this enlightens more than it confuses.
In general, I thought that a connection became a stopover if the time between arrival at and departure from the connecting airport was less than four hours. The exception is if you arrive on the last flight of the day then it would be a "connection" to fly the first flight the next day.
A stopover can be as long as you want, limited by the validity of the ticket/fare. Say the roundtrip fare rules say that return flight must commence by 30 days from date of departure from origin. You could fly to FCO and 30 days later return. You could fly to Rome, stay 20 days, stop in London for 10 days. But if you were to go to Rome for 21 days then you would only be able to stop in London for 9 days. For minimum stay (have seen 7-day min stay), you can travel from your destination to a stopover city before the minimum stay time has been reached as long as your return from the last stopover is at/after the minimum stay.
At united.com, you can see the fare rules (I did not see this at aa.com). In those rules they give you the rules for stopovers. The rules vary depending on the fare.
For a $450 ticket from IAD to FCO:
8. STOPOVERS
NONE UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED
For an $1160 ticket:
8. STOPOVERS
UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED NOTE - GENERAL RULE DOES NOT
APPLY
2 STOPOVERS PERMITTED - 1 IN EACH DIRECTION AT USD 50.00
EACH.
For IAD to BKK, stopover rules generally allow a free stop in Japan on the return trip but not outbound. Here are the rules for a $2000 M fare:
8. STOPOVERS
BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THAILAND FOR MLXS TYPE FARES
4 STOPOVERS PERMITTED
LIMITED TO 2 FREE AND 2 AT USD 75.00 EACH.
NONE IN JAPAN OUTBOUND.
The above fare rules also specify rules on combinations (end-end, open-jaw, circle-trip). If your fare doesn't qualify for a free or reasonably priced stopover, then maybe it would be a circle trip if you went outbound via LHR and return via LGW. <- No need to reply to that comment as I think I am missing something regarding your plan, Cassandra. In any event, here is an example of the fare rules for permitted combinations (this is the $450 ticket IAD-FCO), including circle-trip:
10. PERMITTED COMBINATIONS
UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED
DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
ADD-ONS PERMITTED.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA THE POINT OF COMBINATION.
OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS EXCEPT FOR AROUND-THE-WORLD FARES
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS EXCEPT FOR AROUND-THE-WORLD FARES.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY ROUND TRIP W-/V-/Q-/S-/H-
TYPE FARES OF THE SAME FARE TYPE FOR CARRIER UA/LH/BD/
Cassandra, et al, I am no expert but am trying to get an understanding of fare rules. Below are some clues that I've found. Hope this enlightens more than it confuses.
In general, I thought that a connection became a stopover if the time between arrival at and departure from the connecting airport was less than four hours. The exception is if you arrive on the last flight of the day then it would be a "connection" to fly the first flight the next day.
A stopover can be as long as you want, limited by the validity of the ticket/fare. Say the roundtrip fare rules say that return flight must commence by 30 days from date of departure from origin. You could fly to FCO and 30 days later return. You could fly to Rome, stay 20 days, stop in London for 10 days. But if you were to go to Rome for 21 days then you would only be able to stop in London for 9 days. For minimum stay (have seen 7-day min stay), you can travel from your destination to a stopover city before the minimum stay time has been reached as long as your return from the last stopover is at/after the minimum stay.
At united.com, you can see the fare rules (I did not see this at aa.com). In those rules they give you the rules for stopovers. The rules vary depending on the fare.
For a $450 ticket from IAD to FCO:
8. STOPOVERS
NONE UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED
For an $1160 ticket:
8. STOPOVERS
UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED NOTE - GENERAL RULE DOES NOT
APPLY
2 STOPOVERS PERMITTED - 1 IN EACH DIRECTION AT USD 50.00
EACH.
For IAD to BKK, stopover rules generally allow a free stop in Japan on the return trip but not outbound. Here are the rules for a $2000 M fare:
8. STOPOVERS
BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THAILAND FOR MLXS TYPE FARES
4 STOPOVERS PERMITTED
LIMITED TO 2 FREE AND 2 AT USD 75.00 EACH.
NONE IN JAPAN OUTBOUND.
The above fare rules also specify rules on combinations (end-end, open-jaw, circle-trip). If your fare doesn't qualify for a free or reasonably priced stopover, then maybe it would be a circle trip if you went outbound via LHR and return via LGW. <- No need to reply to that comment as I think I am missing something regarding your plan, Cassandra. In any event, here is an example of the fare rules for permitted combinations (this is the $450 ticket IAD-FCO), including circle-trip:
10. PERMITTED COMBINATIONS
UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED
DOUBLE OPEN JAWS NOT PERMITTED.
ADD-ONS PERMITTED.
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS. TRAVEL MUST BE VIA THE POINT OF COMBINATION.
OPEN JAWS/ROUND TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS
FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
-TO FORM SINGLE OPEN JAWS
-TO FORM ROUND TRIPS EXCEPT FOR AROUND-THE-WORLD FARES
-TO FORM CIRCLE TRIPS EXCEPT FOR AROUND-THE-WORLD FARES.
PROVIDED -
COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY ROUND TRIP W-/V-/Q-/S-/H-
TYPE FARES OF THE SAME FARE TYPE FOR CARRIER UA/LH/BD/
Nov 14th, 2004, 06:20 AM
#8
Here is a link that allows you to check fares and fare rules:
http://dps1.travelocity.com/lognlogi...tr_module=FARE
I think it was rkkwan who gave us that link.
