Zambia - South Luangua ...A Great Destination or a Dissapointment?
Jan 22nd, 2007, 08:07 PM
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Zambia - South Luangua ...A Great Destination or a Dissapointment?
Having read a new trip report that fairly well canned South Luangwa for wildlife, guide experience and photographic opporunity - It got me to thinking (always a worry when one has DECIDED their itinerary!) as we have 6 days in Zambia (at the new Wilderness lodges) in our 2008 itinerary.
It's a long way to go and could cut into Botswana time (!) for a 'less than' experience. The Fodorites here who are extensively travelled usually have an opinion or two
- and I know that each destination has it's own unque interests etc. etc but what is the honest opinion about South Luangua and its main attractions?
1. What did you enjoy, dislike?
2. Would you go back? Or, have you been more than once?
3. How did SL compare to Botswana for wildlife, guides, accomodation?
(Please don't feel compelled to limit your answer to 1.2.3!)
It's a long way to go and could cut into Botswana time (!) for a 'less than' experience. The Fodorites here who are extensively travelled usually have an opinion or two
- and I know that each destination has it's own unque interests etc. etc but what is the honest opinion about South Luangua and its main attractions?1. What did you enjoy, dislike?
2. Would you go back? Or, have you been more than once?
3. How did SL compare to Botswana for wildlife, guides, accomodation?
(Please don't feel compelled to limit your answer to 1.2.3!)
Jan 22nd, 2007, 08:28 PM
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Thembi,
I havent been to the SL, but, recommend you read some prior trip reports from some SL regulars......
The South Luangwa has a huge fan base around here, and am sure will provide you a great holiday.
The new Wilderness lodges in the SL.....are they open yet?
Hari
I havent been to the SL, but, recommend you read some prior trip reports from some SL regulars......
The South Luangwa has a huge fan base around here, and am sure will provide you a great holiday.
The new Wilderness lodges in the SL.....are they open yet?
Hari
Jan 22nd, 2007, 08:37 PM
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I can't directly answer any of your three questions. But as I believe you're a fellow resident of Adelaide, I thought I'd get in before any of the Fodorites who are prejudiced in favour of Zambia.
I wouldn't be overly concerned by negative reports. That sort of thing is bound to surface occasionally for just about any of the best safari destinations in the less managed areas of Africa. After all, wild is wild, and you can't dial up a smorgasborg at every turn. I'm a long-time Botswana advocate, but have booked for a week in SLNP (Kaingo and Mwamba camps) in July '08 and have great confidence that my expectations will be met. I rely largely on the experience of people I know and trust, and who have shared some of my Botswana experiences (so they know what I like). I have no knowledge, and care even less, about the Wilderness properties in Zambia, but I cannot imagine such an organisation investing in a lemon.
John
www.afrigalah.com
I wouldn't be overly concerned by negative reports. That sort of thing is bound to surface occasionally for just about any of the best safari destinations in the less managed areas of Africa. After all, wild is wild, and you can't dial up a smorgasborg at every turn. I'm a long-time Botswana advocate, but have booked for a week in SLNP (Kaingo and Mwamba camps) in July '08 and have great confidence that my expectations will be met. I rely largely on the experience of people I know and trust, and who have shared some of my Botswana experiences (so they know what I like). I have no knowledge, and care even less, about the Wilderness properties in Zambia, but I cannot imagine such an organisation investing in a lemon.
John
www.afrigalah.com
Jan 22nd, 2007, 10:21 PM
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can you direct me to the trip report canning South Luangwa, I can't find it.
I've been to S.L. twice and returning this year. don't have botswana to compare it to but we did have excellent game sightings, even in Emerald Season and except for rhino and cheetah which are not in that part of Zambia, we saw everything including painted dogs. I enjoyed the lack of crowds there, the scenery, the people and of course the animals. There will always be some that disagree, but check out the positive reports about SL and you will see they far outweigh the negative.
I've been to S.L. twice and returning this year. don't have botswana to compare it to but we did have excellent game sightings, even in Emerald Season and except for rhino and cheetah which are not in that part of Zambia, we saw everything including painted dogs. I enjoyed the lack of crowds there, the scenery, the people and of course the animals. There will always be some that disagree, but check out the positive reports about SL and you will see they far outweigh the negative.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:26 PM
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To answer your question: A Great Destination and A Disappointment that I could not stay longer.
1. I’ve been to Tafika, Nkwali, Tena Tena, and Kawaza Village on two separate visits. I liked the remoteness and wild feel of South Luangwa. We encountered few other vehicles. The terrain is beautiful and varied. I enjoyed hearing and seeing elephants and other animals crossing the river. It is a good place for leopards and I’ve seen at least one while staying at each safari camp, with one sighting on foot. The stork colonies and fishing parties are unlike any I’ve seen elsewhere. Puku are abundant here. It is a beautiful and exciting place to walk where elephant and buffalo viewing on foot is common.
What did I dislike? There are no cheetahs. But that’s like saying I’d prefer some chimps and gorillas too.
2. Yes, I plan to return in 2008 for a third visit. If you're there in late July we could cross paths!
3. SL compared to Botswana: It is not quite fair to compare one park with an entire country that has many parks ranging from the Kalahari to the Okavango Delta to Linyanti. Botswana had slightly more game and more varied game viewing. The guides have been excellent in both places. Accommodations for both were very comfortable, more than I expected, with wonderful food. The 5 paw Wilderness camps I stayed at were fancier than what I recall in South Luangwa, but all offered luxury in the bush.
You'll have a fantastic 6 days. I'd like to read this negative report.
1. I’ve been to Tafika, Nkwali, Tena Tena, and Kawaza Village on two separate visits. I liked the remoteness and wild feel of South Luangwa. We encountered few other vehicles. The terrain is beautiful and varied. I enjoyed hearing and seeing elephants and other animals crossing the river. It is a good place for leopards and I’ve seen at least one while staying at each safari camp, with one sighting on foot. The stork colonies and fishing parties are unlike any I’ve seen elsewhere. Puku are abundant here. It is a beautiful and exciting place to walk where elephant and buffalo viewing on foot is common.
What did I dislike? There are no cheetahs. But that’s like saying I’d prefer some chimps and gorillas too.
2. Yes, I plan to return in 2008 for a third visit. If you're there in late July we could cross paths!
3. SL compared to Botswana: It is not quite fair to compare one park with an entire country that has many parks ranging from the Kalahari to the Okavango Delta to Linyanti. Botswana had slightly more game and more varied game viewing. The guides have been excellent in both places. Accommodations for both were very comfortable, more than I expected, with wonderful food. The 5 paw Wilderness camps I stayed at were fancier than what I recall in South Luangwa, but all offered luxury in the bush.
You'll have a fantastic 6 days. I'd like to read this negative report.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:42 PM
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atravelynn- I can't recall, have you been to any of the SA Sabi Sands private camps, e.g. MalaMala, Singita, Leopard Hills, etc? If so, how would you compare them to the Zambia Kkwali, Tena Tena?
regards -tom
regards -tom
Jan 23rd, 2007, 01:27 PM
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Thanks for your replies, I guess when one has included a destination one has "feelers" out and sensitive ones at that, for the destinations. I know some of you have seen our itinerary posted a few days ago (with the looong countdown of 545 days to go!) it took us 18 months of planning for this trip, and while we are confident about our choices for Botswana, having been there, Namibia and Zambia are new destinations for us and we want to make sure we are making the right choices! But as has been mentioned - each area has it's own charm and interests. we are not luxury seeking missiles, on the contrary a bit rustic suits us better - but the knowledge and skill of the guides/trackers is of the utmost importance to us!
Mat, I don't want to be coy - but would prefer not to post the actual ref. to the report. Part of the trip report gave good detail - then later in a reply the author stated: And I quote
"It's sort of like 10% of the Zambia game drive time was interesting while 30% of the game drive time at [in SA - camp name removed by Thembi] was interesting. The guides at [SL - camp name removed by Thembi] spent a lot of time just wandering around, which is ok, it is pretty country. But they do not have the advantage of "scouts", other rangers who are moving about and finding things, ... I would have considered it close to failure."
Another reference in a different report (I have read so many over the past week I have no idea where it is now!) - it was an old thread about "Pet hates or peeves whilst on Safari" talked about the lack of experience in SL camps for photographic opportunities and the lack of knowledge of the guides in positioning the vehicle, understanding best light and moving the vehicle so both sides of the the group are in good position to take the photos.
We are amatuer photogrpahers only but the photo ops. are very important to us too.
I will puposefully track down SL trip reports - In fact probably should have done that before posting this question but the fact that some of you are going back and that I have heard of some couples who go to the same camp every year (!) gives me hope that we have made the right decision.
Forget the last question (number 3) it was stupid
Mat, I don't want to be coy - but would prefer not to post the actual ref. to the report. Part of the trip report gave good detail - then later in a reply the author stated: And I quote
"It's sort of like 10% of the Zambia game drive time was interesting while 30% of the game drive time at [in SA - camp name removed by Thembi] was interesting. The guides at [SL - camp name removed by Thembi] spent a lot of time just wandering around, which is ok, it is pretty country. But they do not have the advantage of "scouts", other rangers who are moving about and finding things, ... I would have considered it close to failure."
Another reference in a different report (I have read so many over the past week I have no idea where it is now!) - it was an old thread about "Pet hates or peeves whilst on Safari" talked about the lack of experience in SL camps for photographic opportunities and the lack of knowledge of the guides in positioning the vehicle, understanding best light and moving the vehicle so both sides of the the group are in good position to take the photos.
We are amatuer photogrpahers only but the photo ops. are very important to us too.
I will puposefully track down SL trip reports - In fact probably should have done that before posting this question
but the fact that some of you are going back and that I have heard of some couples who go to the same camp every year (!) gives me hope that we have made the right decision. Forget the last question (number 3) it was stupid
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:15 PM
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"It's sort of like 10% of the Zambia game drive time was interesting while 30% of the game drive time at [in SA - camp name removed by Thembi] was interesting."- report extract
Thembi,
This person reveals a lot about himself/herself, and the extract reinforces the view I expressed earlier. Frankly, I'd place very little value on their trip report myself, certainly not on this part of it. We all have different tastes and preferences, but I can say that I've always found the great majority of my game drive time (say, 90%) interesting. And that doesn't mean zoo-like appearances around every corner, because that sort of thing doesn't impress me. I'm sure the other responses have reassured you, so forge ahead with what you've planned, and immerse yourself in every little delight that nature can serve up.
John
Thembi,
This person reveals a lot about himself/herself, and the extract reinforces the view I expressed earlier. Frankly, I'd place very little value on their trip report myself, certainly not on this part of it. We all have different tastes and preferences, but I can say that I've always found the great majority of my game drive time (say, 90%) interesting. And that doesn't mean zoo-like appearances around every corner, because that sort of thing doesn't impress me. I'm sure the other responses have reassured you, so forge ahead with what you've planned, and immerse yourself in every little delight that nature can serve up.
John
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:19 PM
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We were at Zambia SL, Nsefu and Tena Tena last Sep 2006, total of 6 nights. The year before 2005 we were at Nsefu 4 nights. (The only camps we have been to in Zambia). My trip report for 2006 is at -
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34881694
We like Robin Pope camps, but. But I also got frustrated with photography there, for the reasons you give. Though we did get some good photos. We should have found the lion prides at least once before sundown. Did find them one morning when all were asleep. The very beautiful wild terrain is just too big for a couple of guides to keep track of where the lions and leopards are. Of our 10 nights there we saw leopards only twice and then very briefly at night. But others have much better luck. However, if it is leopards you are really after, go to Mala Mala.
Kawaza Village and school is really fun visit. Especially the kids and the school.
regards - tom
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34881694
We like Robin Pope camps, but. But I also got frustrated with photography there, for the reasons you give. Though we did get some good photos. We should have found the lion prides at least once before sundown. Did find them one morning when all were asleep. The very beautiful wild terrain is just too big for a couple of guides to keep track of where the lions and leopards are. Of our 10 nights there we saw leopards only twice and then very briefly at night. But others have much better luck. However, if it is leopards you are really after, go to Mala Mala.
Kawaza Village and school is really fun visit. Especially the kids and the school.
regards - tom
Jan 23rd, 2007, 05:02 PM
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Tom,
Your question to Lynn about a comparison of the Sabi Sands to Zambia. Once again, i feel is an unrealistic comparison. Zambia and Botswana are more remote, wilderness areas compared to the SSGR which is a much more chalk and cheese comparison.
Let me break it down:
1.) the SSGR is much SMALLER in it's entirety. Compare the total size of the entire SSGR with the smallest private concession in say, Botswana and you get the idea.....
2.)Now in the small traversing area of each of the lodges- they have many vehicles going out on drive, well maintained trail network, radio linkage and the like, history data base of various cats and their blood line (most of these animals well habituated). Zambia and Bots very different.....you are going there for the wilderness element and it is unrealistic to expect action around every second bend!!! especially when, there are so few cars that go out on drive compared to the SSGR.
3.) Great guiding everywhere SA or Bots am sure Zambia is good too.
4.) SSGR makes for a more quick-fix visit if pressed for time and/or you have a desire to see some familiar animals at close quarters in an instant.
Rgds,
Hari
Your question to Lynn about a comparison of the Sabi Sands to Zambia. Once again, i feel is an unrealistic comparison. Zambia and Botswana are more remote, wilderness areas compared to the SSGR which is a much more chalk and cheese comparison.
Let me break it down:
1.) the SSGR is much SMALLER in it's entirety. Compare the total size of the entire SSGR with the smallest private concession in say, Botswana and you get the idea.....
2.)Now in the small traversing area of each of the lodges- they have many vehicles going out on drive, well maintained trail network, radio linkage and the like, history data base of various cats and their blood line (most of these animals well habituated). Zambia and Bots very different.....you are going there for the wilderness element and it is unrealistic to expect action around every second bend!!! especially when, there are so few cars that go out on drive compared to the SSGR.
3.) Great guiding everywhere SA or Bots am sure Zambia is good too.
4.) SSGR makes for a more quick-fix visit if pressed for time and/or you have a desire to see some familiar animals at close quarters in an instant.
Rgds,
Hari
Jan 23rd, 2007, 06:10 PM
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Right-O! My little freak-out is over - particularly with the great advice and steady-girl type companionship from lynn, afrigalah and Hari - cheers and thanks.
More than ANYTHING IN THE WORLD us girls like our wilderness to be wild, untrammelled and virtually alone - we LOVE the small things, the smell of the grass, the play of light on water, the shy smile of a guide when we make a joke, spotting the tiny insects perched on a blade of grass - seeing Leopard Tortise, or periwinkles, or how bark sheds off a tree, or sausage tree fruit and the smell of African sage. We immerse ourselves and when and if we see any particualr animal it is a thrill.
We enjoyed 99.999% of our last 9 day camping trip through Botswana and the .0001% we didn't enjoy was the peculiarity of some of the people on board - they probably disliked us too - we were so ENTHUSIASTIC and well informed! But we were quiet - because one needs to be quiet in the wild if one is to see and appreciate the real beauty. So - we would die with our leg in the air if there were paved roads, other vehichles rushing about and noisy radios buzzing about this sighting or that sighting. Our worst nightmare! Some of our destinations like ongava - vists into Etosha will mean just that - and that is why we are keeping them to a minimum.
Hari you asked in your earlier post whether the two WS camps in SLNP are open yet and I am not sure i answered that bit?
They are opening June or July 2007.
Chinengwe Bush Camp
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/ca...mp;method=menu
Kalamu Tented Camp
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/ca...mp;method=menu
Cheers and Happy travels
More than ANYTHING IN THE WORLD us girls like our wilderness to be wild, untrammelled and virtually alone - we LOVE the small things, the smell of the grass, the play of light on water, the shy smile of a guide when we make a joke, spotting the tiny insects perched on a blade of grass - seeing Leopard Tortise, or periwinkles, or how bark sheds off a tree, or sausage tree fruit and the smell of African sage. We immerse ourselves and when and if we see any particualr animal it is a thrill.
We enjoyed 99.999% of our last 9 day camping trip through Botswana and the .0001% we didn't enjoy was the peculiarity of some of the people on board - they probably disliked us too - we were so ENTHUSIASTIC and well informed! But we were quiet - because one needs to be quiet in the wild if one is to see and appreciate the real beauty. So - we would die with our leg in the air if there were paved roads, other vehichles rushing about and noisy radios buzzing about this sighting or that sighting. Our worst nightmare! Some of our destinations like ongava - vists into Etosha will mean just that - and that is why we are keeping them to a minimum.
Hari you asked in your earlier post whether the two WS camps in SLNP are open yet and I am not sure i answered that bit?
They are opening June or July 2007.
Chinengwe Bush Camp
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/ca...mp;method=menu
Kalamu Tented Camp
http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/ca...mp;method=menu
Cheers and Happy travels
Jan 23rd, 2007, 06:12 PM
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Tom,
I'll be able to comment on Mala Mala by Aug or Jul of this year. My first visit there is in June.
My best lion, leopard, and lion-leopard action in South Luangwa was at night and not photographable. But the guides were good at positioning the vehicle or just sitting and waiting during the day for photos.
If the writer of the negative article equates interesting with predator photo ops, then 10% may be about right.
One of the things I'm really looking forward to on the next South Luangwa trip is the puku. They are such attractive antelope and are much less skittish than impala or other antelope. They are good photo subjects.
I'll be able to comment on Mala Mala by Aug or Jul of this year. My first visit there is in June.
My best lion, leopard, and lion-leopard action in South Luangwa was at night and not photographable. But the guides were good at positioning the vehicle or just sitting and waiting during the day for photos.
If the writer of the negative article equates interesting with predator photo ops, then 10% may be about right.
One of the things I'm really looking forward to on the next South Luangwa trip is the puku. They are such attractive antelope and are much less skittish than impala or other antelope. They are good photo subjects.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 07:02 PM
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I visited Botswana (Wilderness Camps) and Zambia (South Luangwa) this past June, early July. In terms of game viewing Botswana was better, but it helps when the guides radio each other with the location of the animals. At Robin Pope camps we were told that the guides are not allowed to do this, so it was harder to find the animals. I think it depends on what time of year you go, the camps you are at and your guide. South Luangwa is beautiful and if I go back I would go at a different time of year. When we were at Nsefu there was a couple from England who were 80 years old and this was their l6 trip to Zambia. When I asked them why they keep coming back, they replied "why would we go anywhere else"! I think that speaks volumes.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 07:45 PM
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"If the writer of the negative article equates interesting with predator photo ops, then 10% may be about right."
That's an interesting observation, Lynn, and you could be right. I have great respect for your views and experience. However, I find it hard to reconcile with my guesstimate that big predator photo opps on our last visit to the Selinda and Kwando concessions rated around 50 percent (lion, cheetah, wild dog, leopard, hyena), with elephant making up a big slice of the balance, and we didn't ignore such subjects as buffalo, sable, roan, kudu, giraffe, zebra, mongoose, baboon, birds etc etc. Of course, I'm going on the approximate representation in the photographs we brought back. This is not unusual at Selinda. Maybe the reason is that once we find a good (predator usually) opportunity, we tend to stay with it for long periods and do not dash off looking for something else. I know I can be a tiresome advocate of Selinda (almost as bad as Hari about Kwando
), always trumpeting its worth, but it's difficult for me-- reading some of the raves in this forum-- to imagine other high profile areas having predator photo opps of only 10% except on rare occasions. So I believe the writer of the trip report which Thembi dug up either struck one of those rare occasions which most places experience, and/or is the kind of person who expects a thrill a minute behind every bush and has a low attention span once the initial impact wears off.
John
That's an interesting observation, Lynn, and you could be right. I have great respect for your views and experience. However, I find it hard to reconcile with my guesstimate that big predator photo opps on our last visit to the Selinda and Kwando concessions rated around 50 percent (lion, cheetah, wild dog, leopard, hyena), with elephant making up a big slice of the balance, and we didn't ignore such subjects as buffalo, sable, roan, kudu, giraffe, zebra, mongoose, baboon, birds etc etc. Of course, I'm going on the approximate representation in the photographs we brought back. This is not unusual at Selinda. Maybe the reason is that once we find a good (predator usually) opportunity, we tend to stay with it for long periods and do not dash off looking for something else. I know I can be a tiresome advocate of Selinda (almost as bad as Hari about Kwando
), always trumpeting its worth, but it's difficult for me-- reading some of the raves in this forum-- to imagine other high profile areas having predator photo opps of only 10% except on rare occasions. So I believe the writer of the trip report which Thembi dug up either struck one of those rare occasions which most places experience, and/or is the kind of person who expects a thrill a minute behind every bush and has a low attention span once the initial impact wears off. John
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:02 PM
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When we were at Nsefu and Tena Tena last Sept 2006 the guides did use their radios to inform others of lion and leopard locations. And I'm glad they did, it was not a lot of chatter (Thembi) just a few words exchanged. After our 2005 safari at Robin Pope I had an email discussion with Jo Pope regarding radio usage because it seemed that the vehicles at Nsefu were missing game viewing. You know, we would get back to camp and another group would say "whow, that was fantastic to see the lion pride make those two puku kills" and we said, "well, we saw bushy tailed mongoose, what's for dinner". And no, I don't go on safari just to see lions. But after you have been jostling along for a couple of hours not seeing much at all in the dark, a little of the old lion ultra violence wakes you up. This thing about radios blaring with chatter has not been at any camps I've been to. (I think it may be mostly an "urban myth". At Mala the rangers wear a headset and microphone, you hear no radio chatter at all.
regards - tom
. At Mala the rangers wear a headset and microphone, you hear no radio chatter at all.regards - tom
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM
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John,
Too funny.....but, yes....why not. We are passionate about our favourite locations because they always deliver!!! They have the perfect recipie for a great safari and a brilliant holiday. ie.,great guiding/tracking, flexibility, friendly/homely camp set-up. What more does one need?
Those percentages come into play due to the rush-rush itineraries these days where one wants to squeeze in as many camps into one short trip. This more often than not ends up with everyone's ability to draw up the magic luck needed to check their wish lists etc etc., and then come up with conclusions.
Cheers,
Hari
Too funny.....but, yes....why not. We are passionate about our favourite locations because they always deliver!!! They have the perfect recipie for a great safari and a brilliant holiday. ie.,great guiding/tracking, flexibility, friendly/homely camp set-up. What more does one need?
Those percentages come into play due to the rush-rush itineraries these days where one wants to squeeze in as many camps into one short trip. This more often than not ends up with everyone's ability to draw up the magic luck needed to check their wish lists etc etc., and then come up with conclusions.
Cheers,
Hari
