Tokyo Disney Resort

regards - tom

Back to the country where he proposed... Kenya.
Many places there that can offer them the privacy they need.

tom, oh tom!

Back to the country where he proposed... Kenya.
Many places there that can offer them the privacy they need.

tom, oh tom!

Robert, you're thinking Seychelles from the looks of the tag.

I'm sure the Kenyans are hoping for another trip that would serve as bookends to the royal relationship. Can't purchase PR like that.

Wherever Kate wants to go. It might be the last decision she's ever allowed to make.

Cape Town and other spots in South Africa!

BIG yaaaawn

regards - tom

Tom, shouldn't you be writing your trip report from Tanzania?

Hi twaffle, yes, and I've been "thinking" about it, does that count??
Actually been selecting some shots to go with the report, processing and putting up on my smugmug site. A very time consuming task for me. Just for your eyes only, here they are (43)!!!
http://tomgraham.smugmug.com/SAFARI2011TANZANIA
I will start writing report tomorrow, that is a lot of work to me, I'd rather play with pictures

regards - tom
ps - so why am I here looking at this thread anyway? You know me , any chance I get to make a smart a$$ comment!!!

Thanks for sharing these images.

Having considered Tanzania for extended trip next February, I think I will stick to the private reserves in Bots & SA.

I couldn't stand having 9,10,11 vehicles all fighting for position - my idea of safari hell.

Great photos, Tom! Lbj2, you won't notice the other vehicles when you're at a great sighting. Most of the time, you won't have many, if any, other vehicles around you. I saw just as many vehicles at a cheetah sighting in Botswana's Savute last year. Botswana's private reserves won't have many vehicles, but also won't have the migration herds, something you shouldn't miss.

Shaytay, I would notice other vehicles, as they would prevent me from positioning myself in the perfect position. Which is more important to me than huge herds.

Savute is in a national park, so not really comparable to the trip I would be planning.

If I were to visit for the migration, I would choose the July-September section. It appears far more reliable than the Ndutu experience.

Agree with lbj2 on all counts.
Including that SA and Bots preferred for photography. That plus it is only in Ndutu that you can go off-road. For photography off-road is a must. I'll go into more detail in my report.

For migration herds I would likely do Kenya in Sep(?).

regards - tom

Russell,

You would be extremely frustrated in the private reserves in SA, unless you have special privileges wrt photography before hand. Doesn't compare in anyway to the Kwando concessions that you are used to!

As to the Mara, I loved the off-season in 2008. I think it was early June.... There were hardly many vehicles around.

Hari, don't know what you mean by "You would be extremely frustrated in the private reserves in SA". In SA private reserves you can go off road and position any way you like. No special privileges required. Also, they control the number of vehicles at a sighting, typically 3, so you don't have 16 vehicles around a tree with a leopard in it. Yes, saw that in TZ.

regards - tom

Hi Tom,
Sorry if the post was mis-interpreted. Post was meant for Russell's specific interests wrt his photography where although, the vehicles at sightings are limited to 3 or 4 - the overall vehicle density in the Sabi Sands and surrounds (if this was Russell's place of interest) is a bit too high compared to what he's used to! Point of reference was the waiting in queue (many times the case, if not all) and the time limit at sightings (hence my reference to special privileges)

Hope you had a good trip to Tanzania - agree with you, 16 vehicles are not acceptable at all ...... I would specify to the guide though, that he needs to move off from the crowds and leave the others to jostle for spots at the sighting. I do hope you had several sightings where you managed to get away from the crowds .......

Hari

Hey Hari,

In general, the only reason why a lodge in the delta contains less tourists than in SA is ...the popularity of the destination/lodge.

B.regs,

J.

I am guessing you are being sarcastic, jochen?

Vehicle densities in the private concessions are incredible. Take the kwando concession, they normally drive on around 80,000 hectares of their property. The other 120,000 is more wooded mopane or too far from the camps.

The SSGR is only 60,000 hectares. A maximum of 8 vehicles will drive the Kwando concession , split between two camps, 30kms apart .

Enough said.

No, seriously. I am not sarcastic.

I'm not talking about number of vehicles per hectare, lbj2. I'm talking number of occupied seats per vehicle.

You can juggle as much as you want with whatever figure you want, but to me it's the end result that counts. Being:

1. the number of good sightings
2. the quality of those sightings

This is what I fork over the money for. To me, all the rest is fairly irrelevant.

The quality of a sighting is more influenced by the number of people in the vehicle then it is by the number of vehicles (which is low anyway, as it's in a private concession; the difference with a national park is huge).


But if you really want to elaborate on the number of vehicles;

In my experience there is no significant difference in number of vehicles per sighting when you compare private reserves near Kruger with private concessions in the delta.
In popular areas in the game reserves around Kruger, there may be a "queue" when there is a very good sighting, yes. But in practice, I hardly experienced those moments. And when I did, I thought the time spent at the sighting was enough.

Besides, this "popularity" can differ a lot, even in one particular reserve. For example; the west of Sabi Sands is a block shared by lots of lodges (Dulini, Idube, Inyati, Exeter, Ulusaba,...). There the number of vehicles can perhaps be too much. But to take another example; in the north of the park (EP, Arathusa, Djuma, Nkorho) the situation is better as not everyone can go everywhere (you'll have to check the traversing rights map on the Sabi Sands website for the exact situation). And yet another example; in the south of the reserve, Sabi Sabi shares territory with Nottens, and nobody else. I can safely assume sightings there are as "exclusive" as in the delta.

But what we must not forget, is that traversing rights can also be a positive. Not in quality of the sightings, but in quantity. After all; 2 trackers see more than one, and four see more than two.

You might even say there's a trade-off between quality and quantity somewhere. But then I'd say; in general the private reserves near Kruger are closer to the ideal situation than the concessions in the Okavango Delta.

B.regs,

J.

PS. Coming back on my 1st example of the western part of Sabi Sands; Ulusaba is on the short list of Tourism Of Tomorrow award winners for 2011. See: http://www.tourismfortomorrow.com/Winners/2011_Winner_and_Finalists/ulusaba-private-game-reserve/
So it can't be <that> bad.

Pixelpower, what is your Okavango experience? Because a lot of argumentand assumptions do not hold up IMO.

I don't want to pay for a private vehicle and be restricted to 20 minutes photographic time. I have never been queued or bumped from a sighting in Botswana's private areas. I would estimate that more 50% was me being the only vehicle.

This allows me to sit and wait for the action to develop and position myself as I please. It has happened with full and empty camps, even at predator sightings. For example, I spent two days alone following cheetah, as other guests wanted to watch lions and dogs.

This would not happen in an exclusive area like Sabi Sabi & Nottens as you referred to it. There are 120 beds in the traversing area you mention. Probably totalling less than 10000 hectares. A full house would mean 15-20 vehicles. The smaller concession size would also probably mean less sightings to share between more vehicles.

Hardly the experience I want unless I get special photographic consideration.

I never considered that if I hired a private vehicle (in SA) I would still be expected to queue and take turns at a sighting. Thanks for pointing that out lbj2, I would not be very happy with that situation at all.

So if I were to go out privately, do it in Bots?

No worries, Femi. I guess you could be queued in Bots, though in my experience, the larger concessions means it does not happen all that often.

Apologies for the spelling & grammar in the previous post, currently on my iPhone.

Here's my 2 cents, although I've never had a private vehicle. Except a very few times when I just happened to be the only guest in it for that game drive.

I would expect private vehicles to cue like every other vehicle. This is the one big drawback to having a private vehicle and I have mentioned it many times before. Regardless, I can recall some instances where having to cue to -get into- the sighting was frustrating. However, even if you have to leave the sighting (because of backed cue) you could always rejoin the cue. And regarding having a time limit at the sighting, say 20 mins, in my over 150 game drives in SA I can not recall one where this was not long enough, at that time, - for me. My conclusion is that the density of vehicles in an area is just as important as having a private vehicle.

Of course if your goal on safari is specific, such as to follow the white lions of the Timbavati, then you certainly do need a private vehicle. At the minimum. And probably prior specific permission by private camp owners to traverse onto their property. I would submit that 99.99% of the safari goers are accommodated by the present arrangements. “Special” guests, like ourselves, will have to make special arrangements . Assuming you have enough $$$$.

And if you think "life is tough" in SA or Bots, you have not seen the mess(es) I saw this Feb in Tanzania at sightings. Watch for my trip report, coming soon to a forum near you !!!

regards - tom

"1. the number of good sightings
2. the quality of those sightings

This is what I fork over the money for. To me, all the rest is fairly irrelevant." Pixelpower


My point exactly!!! That's exactly what I was getting at!

The queue system occurs when everything is radio-controlled. Not at all interested in that sort of experience. Want to track the sightings down and plan the day before hand in terms of logistics......... picnic lunch if needed!

I went with a bunch of first timers last month to these camps in Bots, and they were intrigued and thrilled with the "tracking" experience ...... even when on the odd occasion we came out empty handed.

Agree though to Jochen's mention of the Kruger's higher quantity of predator sightings - notably Lion and Leopard. Agree 100% and there are the trade offs with the queue and the time limits.

" would expect private vehicles to cue like every other vehicle. This is the one big drawback to having a private vehicle and I have mentioned it many times before. "

Yes - no queue when there are only 3-4 vehicles in total and especially true when you track and find something far far away from camp ....... that others don't respond as it's too far.

pressed submit by mistake.

Don't respond due to different reasons besides being too far - brunch, siesta, plane to catch etc etc.,

also possibly found something else too...

I'm with Hari. I want to go out, find my own sighting and sit there for as long as I want. At this point I'm willing to take the chance that I'll miss something spectacular seen by others who wait in line.

I came to hate the radio during my stay at Exeter River Lodge in Sabi Sands, seemed like there was never a moment's peace and we were always zooming off to go wait in line at the next sighting. Never again (hopefully).

In Yala (Sri Lanka) our guide was so confident of being able to find leopard on his own, we could pass the 16 vehicle traffic jam without a backward glance.

Now wait a minute there, lbj2...

1) I made a statement on the average number of guests (currently) at lodges in all (!) private reserves near Kruger, compared to lodges in private concessions in the Delta. And that the number of occupied seats is a result of that.

2) You started talking about something else; the number of vehicles per concession. And you only compare with ONE reserve near Kruger (SS).

3) I reply to that as well, and point out that there's a lot of different experiences to be had, even just in SS. And that there's a trade-off; sharing too much sightings is no fun, but being totally on your own and having NO ONE that lets you know where interesting things are to be seen; that may be no fun either. You might miss out on stuff.
Of course, I'm talking from the viewpoint of a REGULAR customer in a private concession, who comes by ONCE and wants to see AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

4) But now you start talking about something else again; private vehicles instead of regular vehicles. That kind of arrangement is not for a regular customer.


Well you know what? Then you may be right; the Delta could indeed be the better place. But that does not mean the Delta is the better place for the normal customer. Certainly not at this point in time when most of the Delta is flooded.

And THAT is the point I tried to make initially to Hari; neither he nor Russell are "normal" customers. They have a lot of experience and are focused on photographic results and exclusive sightings, and are willing to pay extra to maximize those results, and to maximize the number of those sightings. Hence, they must be a bit careful when making statements to compare these areas, as these statements do not hold for the average visitor of those places (nor for the average visitor of this forum, by the way).

B.regs,

J.

Actually, Jochen, you were the one who took the conversation put of context. Hari said that I would not enjoy the safari experience. That was a point raised knowing my needs. It was not meant as a general point.

To be honest, this is getting slightly pedantic and you are making assumptions that do not add up. I compared the reserve that you had used it to support your your argument, I have no doubt that others maybe be different, but please use facts, not hearsay or assumptions.

Again, your point on the number of guests in a vehicle being correlated to how busy the camp, does not always apply. The number of people per vehicle also depends on the company
policy. For example, wilderness safaris have a policy that person has a window seat, no matter how busy the camp is. At this point, the quality/length of time at a sighting is down to vehicle density.

In terms of using the radio, these companies do use radios to communicate sightings. So you don't miss out on much. The difference being, you won't be queued if you want to head to that sighting, or bumped when you radio one in.

So, shared vehicle or not, the above still works to your advantage. It comes down to your price point, and what value you place on more exclusive and quality sightings.

Yes,the Delta is flooded, though that is not the issue being discussed.

I pay for private vehicles, but having been on shared game drives and worked in lodges, I have a good idea of both worlds. There is nothing worse of being moved from a sighting when the action is about to start.

Interesting discussion. Shame it isn't on its own thread as I fear it will be lost for all time in the wilds of a Royal honeymoon!!

BTW, lbj (forget the 2, it doesn't rhyme), you realise that you can, if you have the dollars, pay for photographic rights in the Serengeti which gives you off roading privileges. That was what I was told when talking about a proposed private trip there. Aimed mainly at the cinematographers and high end professional wildlife photographers … but it may be something to look into one day if the Delta turns into a permanent lake and you have to take a long migration East!

I appreciate there are film permits, which I have accounted for in my budget.

It only really applies to the Serengeti, as other vehicles will be able to off-road with at Ndutu.

The advantage I can see with NCA film fees is not being restricted by opening times. Leaving early in the morning and not having to return to camp by a certain time and miss out on good light.

"And THAT is the point I tried to make initially to Hari; neither he nor Russell are "normal" customers. They have a lot of experience and are focused on photographic results and exclusive sightings, and are willing to pay extra to maximize those results, and to maximize the number of those sightings. Hence, they must be a bit careful when making statements to compare these areas, as these statements do not hold for the average visitor of those places (nor for the average visitor of this forum, by the way)." Pixelpower

Jochen, i made it clear that my comments were specific to Russell's questions and for his requirements. I guess i should have in the first place just sent him a private email or facebook message

As to Sabi Sands or Delta ...... right now, i don't care about anything ....... Africa takes a backseat to India ....... WORLD CUP FINALS ON SATURDAY AND THATS ON MY MIND ........ pray for us, please!!!!

twaffle - "Interesting discussion. Shame it isn't on its own thread as I fear it will be lost for all time in the wilds of a Royal honeymoon!! "
I was wondering same, what the OP Fodors Robert_F thinks about his thread now!!! Teach him to post "off-topic" here. We will simply turn it into a safari thread !!

twaffle - "you realise that you can, if you have the dollars, pay for photographic rights in the Serengeti which gives you off roading privileges. That was what I was told when talking about a proposed private trip there."
Interesting, and you do need off roading in the Serengeti to avoid (on road) crowds. And of course for photos.

lbj2 - "..as other vehicles will be able to off-road with at Ndutu."
From talk I heard at Ndutu Lodge this Feb, this could change soon. Vehicle game traffic has trippled there in last two years. NCA rangers are getting testy, they chased us away from an area that surprised out guides.
lbj2 - "...The advantage I can see with NCA film fees is not being restricted by opening times".
This did cause us minor problems at Ndutu NCA, we had to be back in camp by 6pm (but stretched that some), 6pm is well before sunset, is about 6:30.

regards - tom
ps - Robert_F, you there? How do you like our replies ?

Hey guys,

I missed the message that Hari's remarks were indeed only adressed at Russell. Sorry for that!

But lbj2, I do not "make assumptions", nor do I "use hearsay". I just speak in general. So no need to come up with exact figures. You don't do that either.

Yes there are exceptions to what I see in general. Yes, Wilderness has that rule of "max 2 per row". But here's news for you, if you really want figures; in ALL private camps I have been, there were never more than two people per row, with the exception of one day in EP, Sabi Sands. And still; I could have jumped in another jeep if it was that important to me. Hearsay? For all I care, that "EP puts too many people in one jeep" line that I see here repeated ad nauseam, like a mantra, is exactly that; hearsay.

B.regs,

J.

Still Jochen, a bunch of first timers (friends and relatives) who were in Botswana with me in February (they'll all go on safari at some point again) had a great time and indeed saw everything there was to see! Including buffalo from the boat trip at Kwara ( i thought they were joking, until i saw their video). My point being - diversity and quality sightings. Yes, the delta is flooded nowadays ..... that's why where you go and when makes a huge difference! That's a completely different discussion and an entirely different topic.

Hey Hari,

I definitely did not want to dismiss Botswana as a sub-par destination! (for first timers or experienced safari go'ers)

B.regs,

J.

Jochen, speaking in 'general' really does not help. You have found a couple of camps that work for your budget and requirements - great.

Though this does not mean it is to everyones taste, or what the average/newbie visitor wants.Some people's idea of Africa are the vast open plains of the Serengeti or the water ways of the Okavango.

For example, both Lagoon and Lebala are in the same concession, but 30kms apart. However, both are geographically different and do not provide the same game viewing/experience.

I provided another good example when you called Sabi Sabi 'exclusive' and I highlighted the number of bed spaces. (A comment based on fact)