merimekko

Hi ,
I have been using the forum and getting good information from it for sometime now for our forthcoming (Sep) trip to Botswana. I haven’t ask a specific qusetions as yet , since good info is avilable on the forum for most of my general queries.
However,reading the replies to Penelope41 post I became a bit concerned,espeially after the following posts.
Rizzuto: One note about Kwando: I am a big fan of Lebala (as are many others here), but frankly I would not go to Lebala unless I could book a private vehicle. Lebala (and I assume Lagoon) uses 3x3 vehicles, and I have seen people in the middle seat on several occasions. That would be entirely unacceptable to me, unless I were paying a low-enough rate where the risk of a middle seat would be reasonable.
Divine54: The Kwando vehicle is a disaster if its full, and I saw four out of six vehicles at a sighting in September that were full.

nightmare! Mgts: There is nothing worse than being on a game drive with 3x3. Its terrible. Especially if it is winter and you have your jackets and your camera equipment with you. There simply is no room to put anything and its like a sardine tin. Absolutely terrible.
I have been telling this to some of the lodges for over a decade but a lot of the lodges have a bum in bed quota which they have to keep to according to the area they have. So in order to have a viable business they unfortunately have to go 3x3. 

I personally refuse to go on any game drive that is 3x3. Its just not enjoyable.

This is our first trip and we are going to stay at Kwando Lagoon for 3 ngts in Sep. Our travel agents didn’t say anything about a ‘3 in a seat’ situation when we book our trip .
I am now thinking to forego Kwando totally and instead add a night to the place in Chobe and the other 2ngts to Mapula.
Would it be wise to give up this area since it is highly recommended for good wildlife? Does the camp employ some kind of seat rotation system and how do you fare if you are there for 3 nights?
Any thoughts would be highly appreciated.
Thank you very much.
M

divine54

meri

you did not quote me correctly but anyway.
" and I saw four out of six vehicles at a sighting in September that were full.

nightmare! "
that's not my quote. but don't worry because it could have been my quote as i see it exactly the same way!

before i book with kwando my formost concern would be

- support a company which also allowes big cat hunting within the very same concession. not conducting it itself but via a sub-contractor.

- the chance that you end up in a packed to capacity car especially in high season in pretty high.

ethically: kwando is a no go.

practically as a wildlife photographer it's also a no go.

personally thinking: kwando is altogether a no go. much better places where seating and morals match my expectations.

savute under canvas by www.andbeyond.com is a great product.

there is no way around: you have to make a choice! and the facts won't change.

happy planning.

div

cary999

Firstly, I have not been to Kwando. I agree that a vehicle filled 3x3 is disaster for photography. And uncomfortable even if you're not photoing. TAs will not mention seating since most don't know and also why bring up a subject that will cause more questions. I have never seen camp organized "seat rotatation", it has been between guests like, "where would ya'll like to sit this time".

How about calling Kwando and talking with camp management about your concerns. Ask about having a private vehicle. Or, a guarantee of only 4 guests total in your vehicle. I know some camps, e.g. MalaMala, will freely talk with you about their vehicle seating policy and they in fact follow it. (I've been there 3 times).

If you are still hesitant, I'd change camps. How about Savute? You do have a little time to sort it out, hopefully. Let us know how it goes.

regards - tom

napamatt_2

Before Hari flips out with me (joke) Kwando is two rows of 3 and 1 seat next to the driver, usually reserved for the moments when the tracker needs to get into the vehicle.

Repeat 2*3 not 3*3.

BTW - has that ever seemed like a bit of a give away that Lions are coming up, to any of you. At Singita this year, with a bunch of newbies, as soon as the vehicle stopped and the tracker got inside it was all I could do not to ask how many Lions there would be.

divine54

napa
once we were standing close to a whole lot of lionesses with their cubs. just watching for quite a while silently. not even taking photographs.
all of a sudden one of the lionesses stood up and slowly but surely was approaching our vehicle. of course the guide was watching the proceedings. because she was focusing on to me not loosing eyecontact the guide decided to better drive on....

somehow scary but also adrenalin driving.
one occasion which means "salt to the safari soup" ;-)

div

DonTopaz

Mea culpa -- I was probably the 1st to write 3x3, and as napamatt and others have pointed out, Kwando's vehicles have 2 rows of 3.

mkhonzo

Looks like Div has some issues that she needs to address directly with the mgt of Kwando.

As for the vehicle situation, I believe that there are around 4 per camp and since thecamps have a capacity of 16 guests, this would imply four passengers per vehicle, unless my arithmatic is as bad as my spelling.

Lagoon in september, what a time to be up there....I'd go for it... You seem to have dwlt on the naysayers on this board, however search out the positive comments, seems there are quite a number who have used kwando for longer than just three nights stays..

Personally it is an organisation that I enjoy too, so I guess I am biased.

richardfh

I am planning a return visit to Kwando this coming September. They have great game viewing, and the guides are amazing.

If there is a situation with a full vehicle I would expect there would be some seat rotation. I did only see 4 to a vehicle when I visited 2 years ago, but was in a private vehicle myself.

Go for it!!!! You will not be disappointed.

HariS

Merimekko,

All you need to do is talk to your Travel Agent who booked your safari? What do they have to say? Talk to them about wanting to not be in the middle seat - or ask your Travel agent to buy up the middle seat. That is possible too, if you don't want to pay for the private vehicle.

Lagoon in September should be good. With luck, Wild dogs. I much prefer the area around Lebala - but, with high water levels right now down in the Southern areas, Lagoon should be happening!!!!

HariS

"BTW - has that ever seemed like a bit of a give away that Lions are coming up, to any of you. At Singita this year, with a bunch of newbies, as soon as the vehicle stopped and the tracker got inside it was all I could do not to ask how many Lions there would be. "

Hi Napamatt,

Sorry didn't see this question earlier this morning. Not really ..... a lot of time, you are tracking the spoor for quite a while prior to the tracker getting into the car. This is done on foot a lot of the time especially across harsh terrain. The guests are kept educated/informed about the whole tracking process. Eventually, Voila there's your Lion pride or cheetah.......

We did a marathon 6 hour tracking mission this past October - where we tracked a coalition of male cheetah through the heat of the afternoon in the midst of the brutal heat. We didn't give up!

Hari

DonTopaz

mkhonzo wrote: <i> believe that there are around 4 per camp and since the camps have a capacity of 16 guests, this would imply four passengers per vehicle, unless my arithmetic is as bad as my spelling.</i>

Averages can be misleading. Suppose two people jump out of an airplane, and one person has 2 parachutes and the other has none. The average is 1 parachute per person, right?

More to the point, lets assume that mkhonzo is correct about 4 vehicle and 8 tents/16 beds per camp. If one of those tents has hired a private vehicle, that leaves 14 guests and 3 vehicles. Uh-oh.

mkhonzo

Sigh Rizzuto you are right, silly me...

But then again, I don't think the camps are always 100% full and secondly there are a few singles in camp too... but if you had a private vehicle then there would be three left each with five people...

safarichuck

For what it's worth, When I have reserved a private vehicle at Wilderness Camps, they sometimes need to bring an additional vehicle in from another camp. I think a more limiting feature is that often there is a shortage of qualified guides. If for example you have arranged to use a specific guide and they are the only guide, in camp, qualified to lead a walking safari, (i.e., need to have qualified with a rifle), then the camp is left without anyone to lead a walk.
Chuck

divine54

Author: mkhonzo
Date: 01/13/2009, 08:22 pm

Looks like Div has some issues that she needs to address directly with the mgt of Kwando.

*********

mkhonzo

i don't have &quot;issues&quot; with kwando. i got the confirmation from the management that they sub-contract trophy-hunting in their concession.

just let me clarify:

- kwando is a nice product when it comes to guide quality and tents.

- kwando sub-contracts trophy hunting which most probably is disturbing to wildlife enthusiasts - as we have experienced also here on fodors!

- kwando's seating policy on game drives can be really disappointing for the guest.

these are facts which cannot be denied by anybody.

and fodors is a travel community where people post in order to learn as much as possible in order to avoid any disappointment and therefore being set in the position to decide on one venue or the other based on advises.

if one ignores the trophy hunting fact - good or rather bad.

if one ends up in a crowded vehicle - sad.

but everybody is entitled to get unfiltered and unbiased facts here.

the decision making process should be supported. whether some posters like it or not.

the individual which is seeking information and advise should be provided with the best information based on facts and experiences from fellow travelers.

so pls don't try to make others think there is a personal vendetta going on. it's definately not! i am just providing information.

div

napamatt_2

Hari

From experience, I would say that informed guests who ask questions are kept informed, a lot of guides like to keep things a surprise. Furthermore I was really referring to the sitation where a vehicle is not arriving at a point due to tracking but visiting a sighting already discovered.

As a matter of interest, how often are you now in a provate vehicle. I know from my experience that it makes a huge difference.

We should all congratulate whichever operator we enjoy the most for ceating such remarkable brand loyalty, whether it be Kwando or WS.

I was unlucky at Kwando and once bitten, makes me nervous at today's prices to try it again. I do think it's helpful to understand that you may be on a full vehicle, and that Kwando does sub-lease part of their concession for &quot;trophy&quot; hunting. But the amount of positive comment for Kwando show's what a magnificient destination it is. The two together will allow people to make an informed decision.

merimekko

Hi All,
Thank you very much for replying and pointing out very valuable points regarding this place.
As cary999 suggested, we have asked the agents to request a window seat for each of us but Kwando wouldn’t guarantee it. They said that it would only remain as ‘a request’ ! As napamatt says “I was unlucky at Kwando and once bitten, makes me nervous at today's prices to try it again.” Surely,it seems a bit ridiculous to go that far to stay in a fairly expensive place and to find out that your request has not been honored but instead to find out you are bundled in to a Jeep with 3 to a row. I enquired about a seat rotation system, and found this was non-existent at Kwando, and also seemed a strange request.
Then the agents have tried to negotiate a price for a private vehicle but the rates (&pound;250 per day) were way beyond our limits.

We were very much looking forward to see Linyanti, however, as we won’t be going there (due to Kwando’s vehicle seating arrangements) we will not know what we have missed. Hopefully, we will be happy with whatever animals we see in other places. At least we will be in a vehicle with a window seat.
Kwando may seem a good destination and may be teeming with wildlife and good trackers/guides but is that enough? No, not for me. It seems very petty of Kwando not to provide comfortable vehicle experience for their clients, who are after all paying premium prices to go there to view wildlife, not to sit on a cramped vehicle. I experience that everyday going to work on the buses and trains. So, we have decided to NOT TO KWANDO!

Thanks very much

cary999

Thanks for your follow-up. Sad that Kwando doesn't take vehicle seating seriously. After all, the game drive is why most everyone is there.

regards - tom

aknards

according to the kwondo lagoon camp website, &quot;A big advantage of our set up is that we permit just six guests per vehicle in two rows of seats. We believe this makes for a far more intimate safari experience and ensures more leg room and overall comfort.&quot;

seems pretty clear to me that someone's going to be in the middle...

atravelynn

If not Kwando, what Merimekko?

safarichuck

Just a bit of anecdotal informatin regarding vehicle seating at Kwando Camps. Whil staying in Wilderness Camps in Botswana last September, two different sets of guests arrived, one from the UK another from the US. Each told a similar story of overcrowded vehicles and very uncomfortable game drives. This happened on two occasions while we were in two different camps. The two sets of Kwando travelers never met one another but each complained about the same things. Convinced us that we would not do Kwando even with a private vehicle. As it turns out we were warned about exactly this sort of thing from our prior travel agent. About the only thing she was ever correct about. One of the couples described how they were required to seatbelt themselves in so that they would not bounce onto their neighbors lap. They convinced ourselves as well as everyone else in camp to avoid Kwando. For some people a shorter stay with exclusive/private vehicle use is an alternative. In other words, each less day would just about cover 3 days of private vehicle use per couple. I understand that this might make the safari too expensive for some but it is an alternative if good photography is on your menu. I hope that my comments don't open up a Wilderness/Kwando debate, that was not my intention. Perhaps if Kwando understands that they are missing a segment of the market because of their vehicle policies, given this new economy, they might even revise their practices.
Regards-Chuck